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View Full Version : what is a DE chariot best for?



dwarfhold13
03-06-2009, 02:30
i've changed my 2500 pt. list to include a chariot and i was just curious what the scenario was best for it.. flank charges seem kinda dumb since its only unit strength 4.. so does it just scare people into shooting it while the rest of the army sets up? or does it support charges by other units?

Lord Dan
03-06-2009, 02:41
Paper weight.

...so more seriously, I've found them extremely efficient at support charging in one way or another. I particularly enjoy running them up with my standard warrior blocks and adding some punch while my warriors add the cheap static combat resolution. Likewise I ran two in a 2250 list once and moved them around the field together. Turns out that like most things in Warhammer, two are in fact better than one.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-06-2009, 02:43
Chariots are all about getting the charge and doing damage in that charge. Getting a flank or rear is nice but not necessary and not really what they're good at (as they cannot march). While a plain Cold One chariot is unlikely to break a fully ranked unit by itself, they're still reasonable for chasing off cavalry, slamming into other "hammer" units, supporting charges, or even just riding into an existing battle to swing the tide.

bcr964
03-06-2009, 03:09
I am a very experienced gamer, and I have a warriors of Chaos army with a monstrous quantity of Chariots, so I know what I'm doing. If you wish to get the most out of your chariots you must use them in one of two ways:

In pairs Chariots can be used to smash a unit of infantry up to 20 or so men.

Chariots can also be used in conjunction with infantry. Charge with them simultaneously, but declare the chariot's charge first so that it ensures that it is in combat. The infantry unit will lend it's numbers and the chariot makes the kills.

If you have a choice, I would suggest you use it along side an infantry unit.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 03:44
If you want you could take the Banner of Nagarythe(sp?) on a Bsb, place him in a unit of Spearmen and move them forward with their flank exposed and something juicy like a missile units behind them. In closed list play this could see an enemy unit charge in, get stuck in an Unbreakable tarpit and counter charged by your other units. Chariots would be greatfor such a role!

To be honest, CoC's and their rarity amaze me, I use to use 2-3 with the old book and they only got better in the new book. (Ws5, S4, Hatred, better armour save, +1Ld and some Rx-bows for "free" but don't count on them to do much!)

People only seem to mention the Hydra and Black Guard when they talk about units that got boosts, but the Chariot is as evil as it has always been. I guess the onset of more Undead/Daemonic players does somewhat prohibit them from performing at their best though.

I wish you could take 2 as a single special choice, maybe thats what kills them. As most chariot users attest to they do work better in pairs and the DE special slots are highly competitive. (Its rare not to see units of Shades, BG and CoK's in army lists after all.)

dwarfhold13
03-06-2009, 06:26
(Its rare not to see units of Shades, BG and CoK's in army lists after all.)

yup.. actually thats exactly what i'm running in special slots
this list is a modified list i had with a bunch of corsairs.. after about 12 games i realize that corsairs require too much finesse, so i dropped lokhir and his unit and dropped my level 4 sorceress... you would be surprised to see all i fit in its place

Condottiere
03-06-2009, 07:05
Chariots, I've always felt, are support units, and a way to get around ASF. Mathematically, I would suppose its better to have two chariots, to get an average number of impact hits.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 13:33
Chariots, I've always felt, are support units, and a way to get around ASF. Mathematically, I would suppose its better to have two chariots, to get an average number of impact hits.

Or to make sure your lone Chariot gets to charge an an even amount of times during the game? ;)

I don't have my book to hand but does taking a Master in a Chariot require a Special choice? If not that could be a fairly interesting idea.

sandinista
03-06-2009, 13:49
If you're worried about using up special slots, try mounting a character on a chariot; a nice bonus is that the chariot becomes US 5, making flanking a better prospect. A BSB, without a magic banner, works well on a chariot, with added armor save and mobility.

Condottiere
03-06-2009, 14:15
I don't think you need an extra special slot - it's always been my understanding that the character mount option was a way to get more chariots on the field without using up special slots.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 14:23
Well there we go, a nice way to migitate the loss of their 2 for 1 option.

Even so, we still won't see many being used.

blackcherry
03-06-2009, 14:52
Have they changed it back to 1 per special choice in the new book? Shame as I quite enjoyed using 3 to 4 chariots using the old list. Good to see characters can mounted in one without the use of an extra choice though.

Uses are best to to either add a bit of oomph to an infantry unit, or scare off more heavy hitting units that would otherwise charge lone infantry blocks.

Malorian
03-06-2009, 15:03
I agree that it's amazing these aren't used more. They are a unit that simply just got better, and when they are used to support a charge you are almost certain to win the combat.

Not to mention they are pure gold against high elves.

Condottiere
03-06-2009, 15:09
I know that with 6 special slots HE's are individual, but what about other new books?

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 15:55
1 chariot per 1 special choice in the DE and WoC army books.

Combined with stupidity and the S7 destruction rule, not to mention the current metagame, we don't see many being used. But I still cram one into my list whenever I have the spare slot/points, useful to support those cheap, cheap Spearmen.

TigToad
03-06-2009, 16:10
Dark Elf Chariots are ridiculously good for their points. I take 1 in my 2250 tournament army and 2 in 2500.

Typically, i put them on a flank, which they can often take on their own. If they can charge a unit of knights, its often a game long tie for a dark elf chariot as the knights really can't hurt them without lances (not chaos knights). The biggest thing I use them for is to charge into combats that aren't immediately decided. If a combat ended in one side not breaking, it as close... and those impact hits plus str 4 and 5 attacks will tip the balance. Plus, its really hard to hurt so isn't likely to give up any points.

The final thing I use it for is mage hunting. It can suicide into the front of a block of troops, not really caring if it dies or not, just to put 2 str 4 and 2 str 5 attacks on a mage in the front rank of a unit... plus if it does enough impact hits, you have a chance to win. I've killed Teclis this way (4 attacks, rerolling misses and wounding on 2's - with the impact hits to kill off any pesky swordmasters, etc that are guarding him).

2 chariots are a win against most units that can break. Plus they cause fear, so can charge daemon flanks, etc without a test.

Eumerin
04-06-2009, 07:30
Unfortunately, my Cold One Chariots invariably seemed to whiff their die rolls. So I eventually gave up on using them. The switch from 2 for 1 to 1 for 1 didn't help things, either.

My TK chariot unit has had more success, however.

sulla
04-06-2009, 23:50
I agree that it's amazing these aren't used more. They are a unit that simply just got better, and when they are used to support a charge you are almost certain to win the combat.
True, but they are still a 'stupid' unit that is fairly slow (unless charging) and excells vs infantry, in other words, it does what plenty of DE infantry units already do well but is stupid. Sure, it can outcharge them, but they can walk faster that it can ride in the first couple of turns.


Not to mention they are pure gold against high elves.

Absolutely true, but then plenty of stuff in the DE list is pure gold against HE. Even the overpriced RBT is gold vs 15pt t3 infantry and nobody mention the ring of Hotek...:evilgrin:

stonetroll
05-06-2009, 00:56
I am a very experienced gamer, and I have a warriors of Chaos army with a monstrous quantity of Chariots, so I know what I'm doing. If you wish to get the most out of your chariots you must use them in one of two ways:


Lol. I think this has been the single most cocky statement ever to appear on this site :p.

Lord Dan
05-06-2009, 01:21
Lol. I think this has been the single most cocky statement ever to appear on this site :p.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. I was going to say something, but it would have been my third post in a row calling someone out on a comment like that.

dwarfhold13
05-06-2009, 02:16
LOL
i didn't know if it was in a joking manner or not, so i left it alone

you know... looking at the stats of the chariot.. that or a unit of 6 shades is about the same.. points wise and hitting power.. the shades are a little easier to navigate around and can charge in any direction, but the chariot is harder to kill..

Condottiere
05-06-2009, 08:00
Chariots have one glaring weakness, which I'm happy to exploit with a cannon flank shot.

Draconian77
05-06-2009, 11:53
I'm glad someone else pointed this out. I was going to say something, but it would have been my third post in a row calling someone out on a comment like that.

Best to stay consistent I always say! :p

Chariots have 3 glaring weak spots surely?

1: S7 hits.
2: Not getting the charge.
3: They are even worse at entering terrain than other units in WHFB, not that that says much. The terrain rules are sort of prohibitive.

Condottiere
05-06-2009, 12:00
How don't they get the charge, unless they roll for stupidity or the opposing unit runs away?

Draconian77
05-06-2009, 12:05
How don't they get the charge, unless they roll for stupidity or the opposing unit runs away?

I'm going to be frank, I don't really understand the question.

They could not get the charge by being charged first?

You charge, they flee, they charge, you don't want to flee for some reason.

Or they have a flying monster that charges and it would catch you anyway, etc, etc.

Somebody uses the Lore of Beasts/Metal and pins it in place.

As you said Stupidity is also a factor.

There are lots of ways for it to get charged. My lone Chariot normally makes the first charge of the game about 75%(Other times it gets Cannonballed or Dragon mauled!) of the time, but after that initial charge when the battlines become entangled it gets tricky.

Condottiere
05-06-2009, 12:33
Basically, my point being that even with M7, unless faced with cavalry or flyers, the Chariot determines when it charges.

The primary target for Chariots, I've always felt, were blocks of infantry.

Draconian77
05-06-2009, 12:44
Fair enough, it's true that they basically always get the charge off on infantry and infantry is a good target for a chariot charge but, normally my opponents know that too and for some reason they object to the steel behemoth reducing their proud men to paste...

dwarfhold13
05-06-2009, 16:55
phew... glad that got worked out
i have a friend who's main tactic is fleeing, as he plays ogres.. unless he gets the charge then why stay around and get slaughtered... i could see that happening once or twice when i play him..
i've put it in the list so i'll find out soon enough if its worth its weight in gold or just the white metal its made of :)

Lord Dan
05-06-2009, 18:56
phew... glad that got worked out
i have a friend who's main tactic is fleeing, as he plays ogres..

Uhh... unless you play an army with LOTS of cavalry, he shouldn't be fleeing to the extent that it's his "main tactic". Ogres have way too low a leadership to be panicking through friendly units.

TigToad
05-06-2009, 21:31
I'm not afraid of cannon balls when it comes to chariots at all. With the hydra and/or manticore or dragon or other monsters that the list brings if he's firing at a chariot, its almost a win for me.

What I do know is, game after game, I get my opponents to say "Dark Elf Chariots are ridiculously good"

That means they stay. High leadership ties up units they don't always beat, the armor save of 3+ is awesome.. and while I hate stupidity, the leadership 9 and fear means i get my charges off when I charge something scary.

Darkspear
06-06-2009, 03:17
@Draconian77: Surely an experienced player like you will know that charging is not purely decided by the Movement value of the model, there are also "bait and flee situations", terrain factors and also the good old charging into an existing combat.

Personally I use only 1 chariot, with a master mounted on it. I found the chariot to be the perfect mount for master (obscene hitting power, opportunity to use a chariot w/o a special slot, also DE units do not require characters to babysit them generally), and I found out that most of my games are won with my master on chariot and highborn on manticore combo (Highborn do most of the dirtywork, chariot protects the infantry and helps the highborn if the latter got stuck).

I do not mind chariots going through difficult terrain if there is a real need for it, at t5 and 3+ save, a cold one chariot can survive absorbing d6 S6 wounds once per game in general (of coz this means if ur chariot is charging into a difficult terrain, u are expecting it to b the last charge for the game).

Condottiere
06-06-2009, 07:37
Charging through terrain seems to me a little desperate; but I think you have to decide during deployment what the primary target for the chariot will be. Making it up as you go along is likely to leave it hanging around without support.

Draconian77
06-06-2009, 10:34
@Draconian77: Surely an experienced player like you will know that charging is not purely decided by the Movement value of the model, there are also "bait and flee situations", terrain factors and also the good old charging into an existing combat.



For sure. (Bleh...listening to Podhammer too much...)

But I still stand by my point that if you are playing an experinced opponent the Chariot isn't always going to get its charges off.

To be honest I'm not really sure that we need to debate this point any further, being charged is a weakness of the Chariot as it is one of the few units in the game that loses essentially all of its hitting power. Infantry can take a charge, many Knight units can take a charge, chariots cannot, that is a weakness no matter how unlikely you think it may be. :D

I would still be hesitant to throw a chariot into terrain, it rarely only take 1D6 hits and 2D6 S6 hits is enough to destroy most Chariots on average.