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martinmshine
03-06-2009, 14:56
my black orcs always seem to get massacred
despite T4 and a 5+ save, they die all too easily and I only have 5-10 black orcs when I get to the enemy( started with 20 b orcs)
Any tips to help my black orcs survive?

Urgat
03-06-2009, 14:58
Buy them shields, that'll give them a 4+ save against shooting. And screen them with cheaper units (gobs), I suppose.

Tonedogbf110
03-06-2009, 15:02
yeah they defo need shields and protection.

As far as Elites go I think the Black orcs are way overpriced and underpowered.
Its a shame, as they are really nice models and the fluff is great too.

Draconian77
03-06-2009, 15:04
Black Orcs aren't all that tough. T4 and medium armour is good but against any massed S4+ hits they start to whither. Like Urgat says screen them or just take out the enemy shooting units/war machines with your fast cavalry.

Take Scroll Caddies and morks Spirit Totem to protect them from magic missiles.

Thats really basic stuff, if you're having specific problems post about them.

theunwantedbeing
03-06-2009, 15:18
They need screening.
They're fairly expensive models and toughness 4 and a 4+ save isnt going to stop them getting shot or magicked to bits by an opponent that wants them dead if you leave them out in the open.

Orcs can get a really quite absurd level of magical defence, for very few points.
Mage, sneaky staff, morks spirit totem on a unit, there you go a heap of dispel dice for next to nothing.
So you can easily avoid most spells going their way anyway, the issue is shooting for the most part, which is easily mitigated by having a load of wolf riders in the way.

Eulogy2
03-06-2009, 15:23
my black orcs always seem to get massacred
despite T4 and a 5+ save,


That is why they die so quickly. t4 while good, is not a solid defence on its own, and a 5+ save is nothing really. of all the orcs ranked units black orcs will be the most "feared" and having toughness 4 and a low save makes them good targets for gun fire, warmachines, magic missles and even bow fire.

shields may help your cause to get a 4+ and then a 3+ in combat, but your best bet will be some type of cheap screen, like snotlings maybe.

Grimthug
03-06-2009, 15:38
I second (or third) the shields upgrade. Not only do they get you the 4 save vs. shooting but they can also be used in hth and get a 3+ save although you lose the second choppa or the great weapon.

One thing that could help them overall (since they are overcosted compard to other elite infantry) would be to add stubborn.

Grimthug

Nuada
03-06-2009, 15:38
Screening won't help you much. Most games are fought with hills for the enemy war machines to sit on (my dwarf opponent always has 2 hills min) and shoot over the screening unit.

Your opponent will always go for your black orcs first because they cost more, and also because he should know that's one of your units that's most likely to carry a magic banner (a surprising amount of O&G players put morks spirit totem with black orcs)

Personally i'd only ever use black orcs if i took Grimgor Ironhide (not used him yet)

Condottiere
03-06-2009, 15:40
Screening is advisable, since after Boar Boyz, the next regiment under the guns would be Black Orks or Big'uns.

Grimthug
03-06-2009, 15:42
I used to feel dirty using Grimgore but in the current Vampire and Daemons heavy enviroment but I got over it! :-)

Nothing like the big G laying the smack down on Skulltaker in a challange.

Grimthug

Shimmergloom
03-06-2009, 16:01
They die quickly, because with sheilds they are 14pts each for a 4+ save vs shooting. While orcs with shields are 6pts each for 5+ save and night goblins are 3pts for 6+ save vs shooting.

Now if you are the enemy who are you going to shoot at?

The 14pt model that has a slightly better save? Or the 6pt model that has the slightly worse armor save?

The goblins are in their because of that economics thread I read here, where the guy said there's always a poor 3rd choice to trick you.

Malorian
03-06-2009, 16:27
Shimmergloom said it perfectly, and this is exactly the same reason I stay away from grail knights.

When you have an elite/expensive unit that dies as easily to missile fire as your core/cheap units, it's no wonder why one is picked over the other by your opponents firing squad...

rtunian
03-06-2009, 18:50
but i can't help myself from taking them!!! :(
"deyz da shiniest boyz'a da lot, dat's fer true"

as an aside, they were worth the points when they had azhag the slaughterer's animosity reroll w/in 6" rule. somehow, they thought taking away the best rule of the unit, and replacing it with extra mundane weapon loadout (while charging you for the weapons) would be a good, balanced, idea

Ixquic
03-06-2009, 18:57
What do you expect, Matt Ward has no idea what he's doing.

Anyway stick Grimgore in that unit, give it the banner of extra D6" on the charge and it will be in combat turn two so the enemy should only get one turn to shoot at it. Being ItP you won't have to worry about panic and it will stick wreck everything regardless of if two ranks are whittled off.

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-06-2009, 20:08
Screening won't help you much. Most games are fought with hills for the enemy war machines to sit on (my dwarf opponent always has 2 hills min) and shoot over the screening unit.

Suppose it depends on what the norm is. Around here that would not be normal. A hill, maybe. But certainly not two.

Shimmergloom
03-06-2009, 20:24
but i can't help myself from taking them!!! :(
"deyz da shiniest boyz'a da lot, dat's fer true"

as an aside, they were worth the points when they had azhag the slaughterer's animosity reroll w/in 6" rule. somehow, they thought taking away the best rule of the unit, and replacing it with extra mundane weapon loadout (while charging you for the weapons) would be a good, balanced, idea

They also lost the ability to generate dispel dice and had the ability to generate power dice doubled in amount of models you need, from 10 to 20 in combat and had the ability to make you lose dispel dice if there's a unit of 20 or more of them fleeing, added.

In exchange for an extra mundane weapon(that you pay for like you mentioned) and better choppa rules and the chance(but not guarantee) to go about 3 extra inches(on average) toward the nearest enemy per game.

Shiodome
03-06-2009, 20:45
your black orcs die because you advance with them. O&G are very good at sitting back and bringing the foe to them. try not advancing within 24" of your opponents missile troops, and sling several bolt throwers and doom divers into his elites... see how long he takes before coming to you. if you really want throw a few units of utterly cheap fast cavalry about and silence those naughty shooty things. the main avantage of playing 'defensively' with O&G is of course that it makes animosity much less of a ball ache.

PARTYCHICORITA
03-06-2009, 20:51
These days black orcs are (sadly) the worst elite infantry unit by far and to top it off they are in one of the worst books with a list the needs those specials slots for other stuff.

sirbone
03-06-2009, 20:54
what?! O&G are not a defensive army- how can they be with the various movement rules that a huge number of our units are subject to.

My advice would be to spend the points elsewhere. Blorcs and Biguns and Boar boys just take up points and die first. More and more units of regular boys, that's what you want, 30-40 night goblins per unit, 25-30 orcs per unit- just beef them up with the saved points.

Malorian
03-06-2009, 20:59
what?! O&G are not a defensive army- how can they be with the various movement rules that a huge number of our units are subject to.

Try and army with 8 spear chukkas and 2 doom divers and then you opponent will certainly wasnt to get closer to you rather than try to shoot it out ;)


I only take 4 SCs and 1 DD (along with a good amount of magic defence) and I often find my opponent needing to come to me rather than the other way around.

Shiodome
03-06-2009, 21:04
try it out sirbone :) O&G are a melee army, but that doesn't mean you run into the teeth of missile fire when it's not to your advantage. O&G are flexible enough to play whichever way suits the situation they find themselves in, and aren't forced to behave in any particular way at all.

If i face off against a heavily shooty army with mainly 24" range sat on hills. then i will set up and play in such a manner that i start out of range, and for them to move into range brings them off the hill so that they can no longer see over screens. it's simple and basic enough that animosity can't screw it up too much (as 'squabble' means i don't move closer, and 'waaagh' means i move 1" forward until i hit my snotlings who aren't affected by animosity)

rtunian
03-06-2009, 21:28
animosity movement uncertainty isn't a valid argument against defensive movement as a viable strategy, since animosity also impedes aggressive movement tactics.

if anything, defensive movement is easier to perform with regards to animosity. since you are forcing them to come to you with artillery and stubbornness, you probably aren't going to march, which means that it will be alot easier to maintain tactical positioning of your troops relative to each other. you are looking at combat not on turn 1 or 2, but 3 or 4. in this position, you can either brace for a charge and set up counter charges, or you can surprise your opponent with a ballsy waaagh! you know, because a defensive minded o&g general would certainly be open minded to animosity on a waaagh, assuming they also have black orc characters :rolleyes:

compulsory movements from squig hoppers and pump wagons can be mitigated by placing them behind units, and then sweeping out from behind the turn before combat is expected to try and set up some flank charging.

imo, if you have no use for a specific special slot, you should always take 2 chuckas or a lobba :p o&g have so many good specials, that there's really no good reason not to have your special allotment filled. ok maybe no war machines if you build list around casting waaagh! but otherwise, you'd pretty much always be better off finding 70 points to fill that last special slot with war machinery

Urgat
03-06-2009, 22:17
Shimmergloom said it perfectly, and this is exactly the same reason I stay away from grail knights.

Hardly the same though, KotR are already pretty hard to shoot, you can't really ask for grail knights to be even more tough... Well, ok, nowadays, they could be. But still :p

TitusAndronicus
03-06-2009, 22:25
of course, you can always use those black orcs as a suicide squad to allow your other units to get close in. They tend to draw a lot of fire which would otherwise be breaking units. BO make a great arrow magnet--ignore them and they'll eat your lunch. Deal with them and my other units will get to you :)

sumdain
03-06-2009, 22:30
These days black orcs are (sadly) the worst elite infantry unit by far.

one word, stormvermin

Da GoBBo
03-06-2009, 22:34
Built your army around the fact that you loose your black orcs. If your opponent shoots yer black orcs to pieces you will still have your other units right? By the time you get to the enemy, he will have turned a 260 point unit into a small bunch that still packs a punch and can outflank. Keep em close to your generals unit and you got a couple of black orcs and a big block of ladz that outwaaagh! into a front and flank if you do it right. It doesn't matter if you only have one rank of black orcs left. It's enough to negate the enemies rankbonus and hit the crap out of em

Nuada
03-06-2009, 22:36
It's an expensive unit to use as an arrow magnet. The OP said he had a unit of 20, lets assume he has a full cmd, that's 318 points.(that's without a magic banner)

I've taken Black Orcs, they are always put to shame by my savage orcs. If you take a 14pnt BO, and upgrade a savage orc so he costs the same (big 'un, add choppas = 14 the same)

Assuming both are 5 wide with full cmd; the black orcs have 11 str5 attacks (lets say you opt for add. choppas), the savage orcs have 16 str 5 attacks. The BO's have the auto waaagh and hvy armour. The savage orcs have a 6+ ward, and are itp until they're broken in combat. Also the BO's take up a spec choice. No comparison for me

Mireadur
03-06-2009, 22:43
What do you expect, Matt Ward has no idea what he's doing.


hehe nice.

Dont worry about the black orcs, they will die as easily once they get into CC unless you make them face enemy cores :)

Dimitrios
03-06-2009, 22:54
My two pence worth.

7 years of O&G experience has taught me one thing.... People always shoot at targets in a certain order:

1) What is going to hurt me NOW

then

2) What is best points per kill (aka victory points)

So knowing this there are ways in which you can manipulate the list:

* Firstly try and make other units more dangerous early on, giving the black orcs time to get into a position of power without taking too many hits along the way.

*Secondly try to design your army so that you either have VERY VERY cheap units or units of the same points cost as the black orcs. This can be done by loading up on fast cavalry (wolf riders and spider riders as core) and then taking multiple elite units in the form of 2+ black orc units or a baor boy unit in the army as well as the black orcs. If the enemy has multiple targets all of which offer the same victory points and threat level, then when under pressure the enemy will split fire and you will not have 1 unit obliterated.

* Finally there is the shielding option. Use a cheaper unit to shield them and take the beating for them. Snotlings are brilliant for this as they move at the same speed of the black orcs and are immune to psyc, so will not break and deny the "cover". However this option is the last resort.

So what i would suggest is to put all of the above into effect. Take boar boys, wyvern mounted warbosses, fast cavalry and multiple black orc units. The wyvern will draw a lot of fire early on and will be in combat turn 2 taking out anything that can hurt your slowly advacing black orcs. The boar boys will then charge turn 3 and engage a further unit. All the while teh fast cavalry blocks line of sight and baits units to charge them, and have the fast cav flee, thus bringing units even closer to your advancing black orcs.

If you can do all of the above, with different units if need be, then your heavy hitting black orcs will always get to the battle, and get there at near full strength.

If you present the black orcs as the first and obvious target OF COURSE they will be picked on. If you where playing against black orcs, wouldn't you? Needless to say that even if the black orcs are wiped to even the front rank, they can still dish out 15 attacks, with the banner of butchery when they charge.

One final piece of advice. Do not put your characters in black orc units unless you must. This will make the units EVEN MORE of a target. Try to spread out the danger in your list!

I hope some/ any/ a bit of that helped in any way. O&G are my most sucessfull army in the current edition, its just a case of playing their strengths.

sroblin
04-06-2009, 01:30
Shimmergloom said it perfectly, and this is exactly the same reason I stay away from grail knights.

On a slight tangent, but I don't see how they're quite so comparable. Grail Knights are 63% more expensive than the regular option, while black Orcs w/shields are 233% more expensive. As Shimmergloom pointed out, being knights they're pretty tough to kill to begin with. They will still be a prime choice for victimization by enemy firepower, it's true, but that just means a bus with a rank bonus is spared the damage, so it's really not so bad, and Grail Knight units can afford to be smaller while still being effective.

Also, if BLack Orcs were a fast unit like Grail Knights, than their improved combat stats would be more useful too

SuperArchMegalon
04-06-2009, 02:22
Grail Knights aren't much more expensive than regular knights because as an army they generally have very little in the way of fodder, which O&G have in spades. There's a built-in expectation in the game that if you are given units which can soak up wounds for cheap, you have to use them to win, rather than letting your Blorcs get stuffed.

Baron Von Rotten
04-06-2009, 05:05
I have given up on using Black Orcs and Boar Boyz. They are terrible. I would take the 400 points that you are using on BO, and buy (2) units of 30 orc boyz with F/C. They are much more useful. More importantly, they are only 210 points. Shooters will need to do 8 wounds to cause a panic test.

Dropping three or four of these unit onto a table, along with 4 units of NG will scare the BeJesus outta some people.....

Dimitrios
04-06-2009, 06:10
I have given up on using Black Orcs and Boar Boyz. They are terrible. I would take the 400 points that you are using on BO, and buy (2) units of 30 orc boyz with F/C. They are much more useful. More importantly, they are only 210 points. Shooters will need to do 8 wounds to cause a panic test.

Dropping three or four of these unit onto a table, along with 4 units of NG will scare the BeJesus outta some people.....

Multiple Boys units will still die to an organised offensive army. Knights charging basic troops will just eat through them.

Boys are good for killing other NORMAL core uinits, however will suffer against anything else. Bo have the extra attack, extra ld, magic banner, multiple weapons and do not animosity and are therefore more reliable. Lets face it, the days of multiple core choice troop units are over!

I regularly field 2 units of black orcs against undead and orc players and they eat through everything they touch, bar a charge from boar boys.

Condottiere
04-06-2009, 06:28
My two pence worth.

7 years of O&G experience has taught me one thing.... People always shoot at targets in a certain order:

1) What is going to hurt me NOW

then

2) What is best points per kill (aka victory points)

So knowing this there are ways in which you can manipulate the list:

* Firstly try and make other units more dangerous early on, giving the black orcs time to get into a position of power without taking too many hits along the way.

*Secondly try to design your army so that you either have VERY VERY cheap units or units of the same points cost as the black orcs. This can be done by loading up on fast cavalry (wolf riders and spider riders as core) and then taking multiple elite units in the form of 2+ black orc units or a baor boy unit in the army as well as the black orcs. If the enemy has multiple targets all of which offer the same victory points and threat level, then when under pressure the enemy will split fire and you will not have 1 unit obliterated.

* Finally there is the shielding option. Use a cheaper unit to shield them and take the beating for them. Snotlings are brilliant for this as they move at the same speed of the black orcs and are immune to psyc, so will not break and deny the "cover". However this option is the last resort.

So what i would suggest is to put all of the above into effect. Take boar boys, wyvern mounted warbosses, fast cavalry and multiple black orc units. The wyvern will draw a lot of fire early on and will be in combat turn 2 taking out anything that can hurt your slowly advacing black orcs. The boar boys will then charge turn 3 and engage a further unit. All the while teh fast cavalry blocks line of sight and baits units to charge them, and have the fast cav flee, thus bringing units even closer to your advancing black orcs.

If you can do all of the above, with different units if need be, then your heavy hitting black orcs will always get to the battle, and get there at near full strength.

If you present the black orcs as the first and obvious target OF COURSE they will be picked on. If you where playing against black orcs, wouldn't you? Needless to say that even if the black orcs are wiped to even the front rank, they can still dish out 15 attacks, with the banner of butchery when they charge.

One final piece of advice. Do not put your characters in black orc units unless you must. This will make the units EVEN MORE of a target. Try to spread out the danger in your list!

I hope some/ any/ a bit of that helped in any way. O&G are my most sucessfull army in the current edition, its just a case of playing their strengths.This is actually sound advice.

My target priority when facing O&G is basically flyers, cavalry and then heavy infantry. TBH, that's my target priority for practically every other army as well.

plantagenet
04-06-2009, 08:46
Do people still target the Blorcs first if there is a Giant and Troll also on the field?

Condottiere
04-06-2009, 08:55
Giants are meant to be a distraction, it becomes a case of risk benefit as to how long you can afford to ignore them.

Trolls can be partially neutralized if you can separate them from the general by more than 12".

Crube
04-06-2009, 10:21
Thread moved to Fantasy Tactics


Crube
The Warseer Inquisition

oma
04-06-2009, 12:56
(...) Lets face it, the days of multiple core choice troop units are over!
(...)

No they are not. Core choice troops units are what wins games. I have yet to figure out why no one at my club plays horde skaven, but if they did, i am 100% sure they would win every single game. There is nothing that can stand up to 3 ranks, flank, rare, outnumbering, banner and warbanner. Seriously, some time sooner or later everything fails their breaktest.

Shiodome
04-06-2009, 13:02
Seriously, some time sooner or later everything fails their breaktest.

well that's kind of the problem. recently in my games it almost feels like someone phased the whole 'break test' concept out of the game, and told everyone except me.

Lordmonkey
04-06-2009, 13:41
Screen them with a cheap unit of goblin archers. The only risk there of course is if the archers fail animosity and stand in the way 0_o

Dimitrios
04-06-2009, 16:27
Do people still target the Blorcs first if there is a Giant and Troll also on the field?

Well What i would say to that is that it depends on how you use them. If you keep formation with your slow moving infantry then they are no more of a risk than your black orcs, so they will probably get equal share of attention depending on what it is that is firing upon them.

HOWEVER if you do use them at speed and put pressure on the enemy by moving 12 inches or at least more than your infantry do then yes they will draw more fire.

The giant however is not a unit you will want to use as a bullet "magnet". The giant is crucial for his terror tests, and so you will want to get him stuck in as soon as possible without taking that many wounds.Trolls are great for chasing down smaller ranged units and or weakened units. Unless you have 4 trolls, 4 wide, do not even consider charging a ranked up unit as they will struggle to pull it down unsupported.


No they are not. Core choice troops units are what wins games. I have yet to figure out why no one at my club plays horde skaven, but if they did, i am 100% sure they would win every single game. There is nothing that can stand up to 3 ranks, flank, rare, outnumbering, banner and warbanner. Seriously, some time sooner or later everything fails their breaktest.

Well TBH, O&G armies that are MAXED core infantry will suffer to the following:

1) March blocking (fliers and fast cav at their rear) Means that they will get into combat turn 6 if the opponent is clever)
2) Persistant range fire power (Magic and shooting will eventually force panic tests, and O&G Ld is not fantastic)
3) Elite units (Special and rare units will march up to core infantry and just grind them, chew them to peices over two combats)
4) Cavalry (Most modern cav, S6 charge with hero support, will cause enough wounds to make the unit test on a Ld of 4 or 5. Not great odds for holding)
5) Fast Cavalry (will stand infront of the slow moving units and bait them to charge and will flee, causing hell. This is especially troublesome when you have multiple units as 1 unit will block the other unit as you are crammed together).

So what i would say is that if you look at most competetive lists, or indeed lists that are fairly good, baring the modern lists, you tend to find cav, monsters(terror fear causing) and elit units, all of which will grind cheaper units to peices.

Obviously this is not universal however its a good rule of thumb.

Skaven mass infantry armies only work by fleeing and feinting etc, and any general worth their metal these days will not fall for that, or indeed will prevent that from happneing.

Shimmergloom
04-06-2009, 20:04
No they are not. Core choice troops units are what wins games. I have yet to figure out why no one at my club plays horde skaven, but if they did, i am 100% sure they would win every single game. There is nothing that can stand up to 3 ranks, flank, rare, outnumbering, banner and warbanner. Seriously, some time sooner or later everything fails their breaktest.


Not really. The one thing I don't fear with greenskins is horde skaven. On multiple occasions, I've had orc units surrounded on 3 sides by skaven and either won the combats or would test on maybe 7's at worst.

Clanrats to the front w/hiding bsb, night runners on one flank and slaves on the other flank vs orcs w/shields and my warboss. That's 7-1 to start. But I can easily kill the rats off with a warboss and orcs fighting on all sides.

15-16 S3 attacks by skaven vs orcs are lucky to kill an orc or 2. My warboss alone should kill 3-4 rats per turn.

And this is vs greenskins, one of the weaker armies there is. Skaven are in even worse straights vs these new super units that don't need ranks to win combats.

They win combats by having like 30 attacks each.

Condottiere
05-06-2009, 07:07
Cores are meant to absorb casualties - specials are to be the unit that delivers the fatal blow.

WhiteLion
05-06-2009, 23:18
When I take Blorcs, they tend to be at best in packs of 10-15. These 10-15 tend to get ignored since they are smaller. Sometimes I take them with the banner of butchery and sometimes without, but either way I have found them more effective at that size.

BlackVomit
11-06-2009, 21:41
I am currently thinking of deploying a unit of 5-7 BO with mus & shields (76-104 pts). They should not not attract too much firepower, and can be used to cover the flank of core units, or to counter charge (if the core unit manages to hold a charge). Depending on the target, you could either have 10 S5 attacks or 5 S6, and possibly negate rank bonus.

Has anyone tried something similar?

Peril
11-06-2009, 21:56
My advice is to take two units of regular orcs instead.

Nuada
11-06-2009, 22:51
I am currently thinking of deploying a unit of 5-7 BO with mus & shields

If i were your opponent i'd shoot that unit first, and try and destroy them. If they are destroyed, that's a panic test for every orc and every goblin unit within 6".

I'd recommend savage orcs instead of black orcs