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Venenum
07-05-2005, 09:39
would Necrons and Tyranids be Natural Enemies?

I don't think that either one is interested in consuming the other.
But, they are competing for the same food resources.

And seeing as the C'Tan are just waking up from a several billion year nap, on account of the Enslavers killing everything last time, I don't see them hitting snooze and waiting another billion years for the galaxy to re-seed itself

what do you think?


-Venenum


...there are 10 types of people, those that understand binary and those that do not.

Wraith
07-05-2005, 11:31
They have no interest in each other really, but as you point out they are both after the same resources so they'll come into conflict at a later date.

The C'tan need humanity because Pariah are integral to their 'Big Plan' and humanity needs worlds to live on so the C'tan and Tyranids are indirectly at odds with each other.

Rich
07-05-2005, 12:17
I've always thought of them as natural enemies, because they are both in competition for all life in the galaxy. However, the C'tan are building their new generation of necron warriors using pariahs, which are anaethma to psychic activity. This means that Necron worlds are a blank to the 'nids, and they steer well clear of them. The Necrons don't appear to be ready for war yet (and have not bought out their titan class vehicles) and so are probably not going to start directly challenging the nids for some time yet. In addition, if the C'tan are creating a separate world ala webway, sealed off from the warp, they could conceivably just leave the nids to it and take away the slaves they need and ignore the material world indefinately.

Brother Munro
07-05-2005, 13:42
I don't think the nids will be too pleased if the C'tan succed in destroying the warp, and 'Nids do have psychic powers, which makes them a potential threat to the Necrons.

Talkie Toaster
07-05-2005, 20:13
(and have not bought out their titan class vehicles)
Well, Epic 40k has some crazy Necron titan-class things in it, including some kind of bizzare plasma-beaming spherical device made from a chunk of a star. The thing is, do the Necrons actually have the numbers to oppose the 'nids anyway? Assuming the whole race was converted to metallic unlife, there weren't many planets under Nectontyr control, so only a few billion/tens of billions could have been converted. And then there are the casualties from the War In Heaven...

salty
07-05-2005, 21:12
Yes, but one has to take into account that if one human with a lasgun can account for maybe say ten Gaunts, surely a Necron Warrior with allo their weapons and armour could take ten times that number (a hundred if you're crap at maths ;))

I see them as at odds with each other, definitely. Then again, who aren't the Necrons at odds with really?

Salty :)

sulla
07-05-2005, 21:53
I can't see them really opposing each other 'till the C'tan are ready to initiate hostilities. At the moment, the necrons must be almost invisible to the tyranids - no psychic presence and generally entombed on dead worlds...the tyranid scouts would just move on past most of their systems.

There is another possibility, no matter how unlikely... Tyranid fleets that are cut off from the rest by warp storms or whatever could come to worship the C'tan. C'tan are possibly the only creatures in the galaxy capable of communicating with the hivemind on equal terms... They already convinced one powerful race to worship them, they may do it again...Wacky theory, I know...but possible.

Bruen
07-05-2005, 22:41
There is another possibility, no matter how unlikely... Tyranid fleets that are cut off from the rest by warp storms or whatever could come to worship the C'tan. C'tan are possibly the only creatures in the galaxy capable of communicating with the hivemind on equal terms...

You have to remember that all the Tyranid creatures everywhere, all the bugs and ships, are one creature; the Tyranids are not a race at all, they are an individual.

Even if you ignore the possibility that the Hive Mind might be too alien to communicate with I find it highly unlikely that an immense, effectivly immortal creature that has already munched its way through at least one galaxy and then gone looking for desert would bow down and worship anything.

On the issue of Necrons and Tyranids being natural enemies then I think they would not be. They would only fight if they got in each others way, otherwise there is nothing for either of them to gain. Eventualy they will fight over biomass, but even then I think that Necrons are only after higher lifeforms like people while Tyranids will eat anything.

If the Necrons take all the higher lifeforms then dissapear into hyperspace (or whatever they are building) then they may never have a large-scale conflict with the Tyranids.

Rich
08-05-2005, 00:00
I guess it could be argued that necrons would oppose the nids if they tried to attack worlds which the C'tan wanted to harvest from - the C'tan are quite set on their goal, and I can't imagine them allowing the nids to get away with stripping away their prey. Appart from anything, the nids would never think to attack the necron homeworlds, and most of the destroyed necrons would just be teleported away to be repaired, hence their losses would be quite slim - the only way to destroy necrons once and for all is to destroy their tomb worlds, and the nids won't go near them as they have no food on them.

Typheron
09-05-2005, 13:42
the real question to ask is this, What does a 'nid taste like to a C'tan?


If a 'nids essence can be consumed by a C'tan for food then they are viable targets to the necron forces as to the star gods the nid race would be effectivly an all you can eat buffet or, given the possability that the nid race is one massive entity and therefoe its essence covers it all, the biggest single meal in the history of the universe.

the nids may have no interest in the 'crons, but could they have interest in the nids. Theres certainly the possability of many different tastes in there for the C'tan to enjoy. Although its highly likely given the alien nature of the 'nids that they dont taste too good then its back to just fighting over bio-mass.

Bruen
09-05-2005, 14:14
If the Necrons decided to go after the Tyranids then I am sure that the Hive Mind would fight back, sure there is no food on a Tomb World but its a viable target if it helps the Tyranids survive.

Typheron
09-05-2005, 14:21
exactly, thus making them natural enemys as whats more natural than trying to kill the thing that wants to eat you.

but again its down to wither or not C'tan can actually eat 'nids, ive seen no fluff to support this or denounce it.

charlie_c67
09-05-2005, 14:42
Enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more nothing less...

Xhalax
09-05-2005, 19:01
This is a highly n00b question, but would the Nids be able to consume Necrons?
I know that if the C'Tan wanted, they could probably scrum themselves silly on Nids. But would it work the other way?

Bruen
09-05-2005, 19:07
This is a highly n00b question, but would the Nids be able to consume Necrons?

I wouldn't think so, there is very little organic in a Necron, but they could sure smash them.

Xhalax
09-05-2005, 19:35
Didn't think so, but just thought I'd ask.

Rich
10-05-2005, 09:24
It does occur that hive ships would require a large amount of iron and other minerals for use in their bodies to take on the role of such things as haemoglobin and so forth - judging from the size of them, the amount they require must be excessive, so no doubt there is some use (however small) for the materials that comprise necrons in the nid forces.

Wraith
10-05-2005, 09:46
There's nothing organic in a necron but at the same time, nothing is stopping a Tyranid dropping a necron in a digestion pool to get all those beneficial 'trace metals'... :D

C'tan don't eat things that aren't 'alive' other than stars of course... :rolleyes:

Flame Boy
17-05-2005, 20:11
I would imagine that although there are no organic parts in a Necron, there would be elements that would be useful to an organic creature as Wraith suggests, but having the hive mind go out of it's way to Consume what little potential biomass and organic minerals there would be on a Necron dead world would be like you walking down a street and picking up and licking a used lolly stick when you could simply walk into a shop and buy whatever you want, and the Tyranids have tremendous spending power when it comes to shopping at inhabited planets they arrive on...

Bmaxwell
18-05-2005, 01:04
not knowing if the hive mind can think to a degree that it would figure out wether or not where a necron tomb world is up to debate as well though is it incredialbe intllgant is just a highted form of survial instinct with now real concius though process? to me it just seems like it goes after what ever planet has the most bio mass which for the most part seems to be impreial worlds.

Im not the type of person to ask this but i was just wondering

gLOBS
18-05-2005, 03:55
Well in the new Tyranid codex the Tyranids attack a forgeworld. It is described as something similar to a ball of metal. If you think about it all the humans on planet don't amount anywhere near as close to the same biomass as to say a jungle planet would have. Yet they still attacked. Water, minerals and especially atmosphere seem to be on the Tyranid hit list as well.

Briareos
18-05-2005, 09:56
Time was when the genestealer served as vanguards and scouts for the Tyranid hive fleets - if a sufficient genestealer population could thrive on a planet, that planet was deemed an acceptable (read 'bio-mass rich') target for the fleet. The fleet

The genestealer population is psychically active and acts like a mini-Astronomican, guiding the hive fleets to the infected planets. The bigger and prosperous the genestealer tribe, the stronger the signal, and in-extenso, the richer the world.

Thus, any world where stealers can thrive seem to be fair game to the Tyranids, be it a desert world, hive world or other.

6th and Final Champion
18-05-2005, 15:26
Do C'Tan count as biomass or just energy rapped in living metal? And to answer the question I dont think they would fight each other, assuming the tyranids can even see Necrons(for all we know they may only be able to see biomass, a nice evolutionary step if you ask me). They'd probably just ignore each other. I mean the C'tan make more Necrons and/or Pariahs and the tyranids feed on biomass, both do this till theres nothing left so the Tyranids AND Necrons move on to antoher galaxy, simple as that...or maybe not. I dont know I dont write the fluff...

Briareos
18-05-2005, 15:46
The necrons codex showed quiet clearly that some hive fleet had gone out of their way to avoid what seems to be the Outsider's Dyson sphere/death star. The fleet must have perceived _something_ which made it alter its heading - so I think it safe to assume that Tyranids can detect C'Tan and/or Necron activity to some degree.

As for Tyranids only being able to detect bio-mass, the corolary would be an inability to properly sense mineral matter : rocks, metals and such. Seems more like a liability than an advantage to me.

As for Tyranid vs. Necron, the problem is simple. Their feedings grounds overlap. Necrons need sentient beings for their C'Tan masters, Tyranids need bio-mass (which includes sentient beings) to feed. Conflict is bound to erupt between the two.

Bruen
18-05-2005, 16:48
I mean the ctan make more NEcrons and/or Pariahs and the tyranids feed on biomass, both do this till theres nothing left so the Tyranids AND Necrons move on to antoher galaxy, simple as that...or maybe not. I dont know I dont write the fluff...

Maybe the Necrons and Tyranids should join forces :P

What a Team Evil that would make :)

6th and Final Champion
18-05-2005, 17:18
Maybe the Necrons and Tyranids should join forces :P

What a Team Evil that would make :)

ROBOTIC BUGS!!! Now that would be cool.

Castigator
18-05-2005, 17:21
Don't worry so much guys.

Just wait till the benevolent Tau arrive and there will be peace and prosperity for all!!!

6th and Final Champion
18-05-2005, 17:30
Pbbbf, Tau you can keep your peace to yourself. We'll take you too. We dont discriminate. Human, tau, whatever. Robotic bodies for all!!!

athamas
18-05-2005, 23:14
actually the necrons are only after pharais [sp?]

those being humans with the pharia gene, so they would discriminate, as some are just things to be killed, and others are brains to be harvested!

Briareos
19-05-2005, 08:55
Actually, Necrons seek out humans pariahs to complement their robotic ranks. All other humans are fair game (or fair food-stuff) as far as the C'Tan are concerned.

The only humans who may be of no use to the C'Tan are the (full-fledged) psykers, because of the C'Tan's aversion for all things linked with the immaterium.

grey_painter
20-05-2005, 14:32
The only humans who may be of no use to the C'Tan are the (full-fledged) psykers, because of the C'Tan's aversion for all things linked with the immaterium.

Which is a good reason for the Necrons to attack the 'Nids who use the warp fairly extensively for communications.

How much of the Necron Pariahs are still human? Is it just a human body in a crunchy metal shell or just the brain? Either way thats atleast one thing in the Necron army that can be eaten... well that and the flayed one's stylish jackets.

Briareos
20-05-2005, 15:07
To my knowledge it is as yet totally unknown how Necron pariahs are created. It would depend on how the pariah 'gene' expresses itself (is it biological, electromagnetic, or anti-warp). The Necron codex is pretty vague on how the original Necrons were changed into robot-like beings, but it seems like some C'Tan magic is required. For all we know, Necron Pariahs may be as fully robotic as the 'classic' Necrons.

6th and Final Champion
20-05-2005, 15:19
How much of the Necron Pariahs are still human? Is it just a human body in a crunchy metal shell or just the brain? Either way thats atleast one thing in the Necron army that can be eaten... well that and the flayed one's stylish jackets.

That brings up another question. If the pariahs are in fact still a little human, and the bugs devour them...What would that do to the hive fleet? Would it null their connection to the warp and make them insane(more insane). Or would it have no effect?

Bruen
20-05-2005, 15:43
That brings up another question. If the pariahs are in fact still a little human, and the bugs devour them...What would that do to the hive fleet? Would it null their connection to the warp and make them insane(more insane). Or would it have no effect?

Interesting point.

From my knowledge I would say that nothing significant would happen.

As I understand it individual tyranids do not absorb genertic material from their food as such, instead the genetic material is sent to the birthing chambers within the hive ships and then some of it is selected by the Norn Queens to be part of the genetic makeup of the next generations.

So an individual gaunt would eat a pariah for food, but would not mutate because of the new genetic material.

I imagine that the Norn Queens would examine the pariah gene and discard it after it was found not to be useful. Changes to Tyranid genetics are not random, they are concious decisions on the part of the Hive Mind.

Briareos
20-05-2005, 15:47
The Tyranid Norn queens select which traits are used in their broods, so erratic or out-of-control mutations have very, very little chance (if any) of taking place.

6th and Final Champion
20-05-2005, 22:15
Ahh I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Rabid Bunny 666
22-05-2005, 02:19
but 'nids do not have souls, thats why they are not affected by daemons and suchlike

the necrons need to harvest souls for the c'tan and the tyranids need to consume living material, so they wouldn't be drawn into a conflict as neither one posesses anything the other needs

Rabid Bunny 666
22-05-2005, 02:21
after it was found not to be useful. Changes to Tyranid genetics are not random, they are concious decisions on the part of the Hive Mind.


the pariah gene would be obsolete in 'nids as it would cancel out the hive mind

Briareos
22-05-2005, 12:46
the necrons need to harvest souls for the c'tan and the tyranids need to consume living material, so they wouldn't be drawn into a conflict as neither one posesses anything the other needs
Necrons do not 'harvest' souls for their C'Tan masters - anything associated to the immaterium is anathema to the C'Tan.

C'Tans need living, breathing organism whose 'life-force/fear/bio-field' are used as food (the Necron fluff is not clear on what it is exactly that the C'Tan feed upon, but it is definetly not the 'soul' of the individual - blame the GW studio for poor developement and incoherent fluff).

Tyranid need bio-mass (living organism) on which to feed.

the Tyranids and C'Tan larders overlap, thus conflict is unavoidable (except when the Tyranids go out of their way to avoid C'Tan bases of course).

Bruen
22-05-2005, 12:53
rganism whose 'life-force/fear/bio-field' are used as food (the Necron fluff is not clear on what it is exactly that the C'Tan feed upon, but it is definetly not the 'soul' of the individual - blame the GW studio for poor developement and incoherent fluff).

How do you justify your statement that 'life-force/fear/bio-field.... is definetly not the 'soul'"?

Life-force/bio-field sound exactly like a scientific explanation for the soul to me.

grey_painter
22-05-2005, 13:19
The C'tan don't feed on the soul though. I can't remember exactly where it is but there is a short fluff piece where Abaddon is talking to a daemon who basically describes the Dragon on Mars. It says how there is a feeding frenzy of daemons around the planet as the souls of thousands are cast into the warp. The C'tan feeds on the life force in this plain but has no interest in the life force in the immaterial plain so lets it go to be consumed by daemons.

Rabid Bunny 666
22-05-2005, 15:29
aah, sorry, i seemed to remember something about soul machines and c'tan

and its in the necron book, btw

Bmaxwell
22-05-2005, 15:42
they feed on the fear of creatres not sure how they can do that with out some how feeding on something somewhat warped based

it could be that it a spefic kind of electrcily single or something like that not quite sure how the brain works when it comes to fear

6th and Final Champion
22-05-2005, 16:58
They feed on the life force/essence. What drives things to live on this plane. Souls are for chaos gods, life forces are for C'Tan. They're basically more about material and tangible things whereas the warp gods are more magic and occult and what not. Basicaly Science vs Magic, that kinda thing.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
25-05-2005, 21:37
This is a highly n00b question, but would the Nids be able to consume Necrons?

Are Pariahs still part human? If so even then they wouldn't eat them as they wouldn't risk getting the pariah gene into the mix.

Bruen
25-05-2005, 22:06
Are Pariahs still part human? If so even then they wouldn't eat them as they wouldn't risk getting the pariah gene into the mix.

Haven't we already covered this?

Typheron
26-05-2005, 00:06
yes, to briefly re-cap, nids can choose what they use DNA wise from a subject so they would simply disgaurd the gene and take what is usefull to them.

the C'tan feed on your essence, whatever the hell that is. I would guess its probably the bio-electrical impulses generated by the brain, cells and central nervious system. This would tie in with the C'tans status as totally bound by the physical universe.

but its definatly not your soul, thats what the chaos gods like for an appetizer.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
26-05-2005, 12:08
Haven't we already covered this?

Sorry. Asked a question before I checked all the messages.

My bad.

the creator
26-05-2005, 12:20
i would think that the ctan are cautious of the nids...

not for the real "big scary alien" reason, but as a " horde of warp sensitive life"

as the ctan are "allergic" to warp life this could be quite upsetting...

Briareos
26-05-2005, 14:47
While the Tyranid have fleet have gone out of their way to avoid what seems to be the Outsider's Dyson sphere, to my knowledge no fluff has shown nor implied that the Necron were similarly cautious.

And the C'Tan are not "allergic" to "warp life" - it is the raw energies of the immaterium which are anatheme to their being (C'Tan being purely material and the warp's prime property being to distort natural laws).

Ward.
09-03-2007, 14:40
While the Tyranid have fleet have gone out of their way to avoid what seems to be the Outsider's Dyson sphere, to my knowledge no fluff has shown nor implied that the Necron were similarly cautious.

And the C'Tan are not "allergic" to "warp life" - it is the raw energies of the immaterium which are anatheme to their being (C'Tan being purely material and the warp's prime property being to distort natural laws).

Actually i dont think the warp affects the Ctan at all, (it say's that some where) it's more the threat the deceivers posed to there food.
I also get the feeling of a matrix type element to teh C'tan, they live off energy, like the lifeforce of a star, and humans and stuff are just tastier.

and the necrons would win, simply there guass weapons would remove large amounts of biomass, that couldnt be retreived and then all parts of the necrons would be teleported to a tomb world, eventually there'd be nothing left of the nids.

azazel_fallenangel
09-03-2007, 15:16
You are new here, so you may be suprised that in any minute this thread will be closed by administrators. Sorry.

The Emperor
09-03-2007, 15:35
Actually i dont think the warp affects the Ctan at all, (it say's that some where) it's more the threat the deceivers posed to there food.

It does. The Old Ones created numerous psychic races to hurl against the Necrons because of the C'Tans vulnerability to the power of the Warp. And they were called Enslavers. The Deceiver is a C'Tan.

Duhgame
14-03-2007, 02:03
Nids would go for Necrons easy, why? They're the most UNnatural source of iron around! :D

uatu13
14-03-2007, 02:51
I thought that the whole reason Tyranids were created is to oppose the Necrons and C'Tan (not sure where I read the fluff for this though). From what I remembered reading the Old Ones created the Tyranids in order to collect all the DNA in the universe (by eating everything) and preserve it from the C'Tan's desire to destroy everything, so that if the universe had to be recreated they'd have a central source to turn to (sort of a gruesome cosmic Noah's Arc). Is this still the fluff for tyranids?

Iracundus
14-03-2007, 03:11
No and it never has been. Don't mistake fan fiction/speculation/rambling for official background.

Cheitan Shadowless
14-03-2007, 03:29
Haven't we already covered this?
Have we now? Have we indeed?

I'm going to just put a thought out there, an old brainchild of mine that has never seen any sort of warm welcome, but one that I shall force on you nonetheless. :p

Everybody seems to always assume that consumption of the Pariah Gene could only have a negative effect on the Hive Mind - I wonder why it shouldn't be so that the Hive Mind could reverse engineer it and effectively create an Anti-Pariah Gene, triggering a bio-electric effect that nullifies things that nullify warp activity. Complicated? Only slightly. Unthinkable? I can't see why it would be. We are talking about the most adaptive entity in the known universe, the greatest manipulator of genetic material - and the Pariah Gene is on its turf.

So that's my thesis, really - I think it'd be potentially disastrous for the Necrons if the Tyranids got a hold of a good Pariah sample, moreso than it would for the Tyranids.

DrDoom
14-03-2007, 10:14
I think the Necrons and the Nids will come into conflict, but probably won't harbor any special hatred for each other. I think the Necrons more "natural" enemies will be Chaos and the Eldar (all those psykers and Warp energy running around).

Thanatos_elNyx
14-03-2007, 12:14
I don't see why the Nids, Chaos and C'Tan can't all get along. They may all feed on Humans but they eat different parts of the human.

The Chaos get the Souls, C'Tan get the Bio-Electric field and the Nids get the Meat. Huzzah!

Bad day to be human...

Messiah
14-03-2007, 12:48
My own personal theory is that the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones as the ultimate weapon against the Necrons, but they have gone out of control, possibly avoiding the Necrons until they can build a large enough powerbase for an all out war. So yes, natural enemies indeed.

Ward.
14-03-2007, 12:49
Coz the chaos needs worshippers, meat needs a soul (generally it needs one if it was born with one) and the C'Tan don't look like they'd like to share.
just my take on the situation.