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New Cult King
29-12-2005, 00:49
Hey all,

I was advised recently to not bother modelling a banner for a Marauder Horsemen unit, and the advisor gave me the impression that everybody knows not to do this, but he didn't explain why...

Anybody?

Mad Makz
29-12-2005, 01:05
Banners give up 100 Victory points when the unit is broken and pursued in combat. As Marauder Horsemen are not known for their combat ability the risk of giving up that 100 Victory points (often nearly doubling the value of the unit if destroyed/broken in combat) isn't woth it for the +1 combat resolution most of the time (As the Horseman are generally used as a flanking harrassing force.)

archonbrujah
29-12-2005, 01:57
If you're using your Maruader Horsemen, or any fast cav to hunt war machines though, it can mean an almost auto win when you charge, 1 for banner, 1 for outnumber, plus whatever for wounds. War machine crew will usually only get resolution for wounds. Also, can be nice when you charge, or are charged by a unit of skirmishers to tie you up. That 1 point makes a big difference in combat, but I rarely find that 100 victory points makes much of a difference in my games.

I run 2 units of 5 Goblin Wolf Riders with full command around all the time, and have never had them lose banner (knock on wood). I'd go with the banner, unless you're planning on using your fast cav as a pure flank charge/harrassment unit.

Archonbrujah

New Cult King
29-12-2005, 02:23
I might keep the Banner guy then, but get another normal Horseman to replace him depending on how I use them.

I was also told that the Marauder Horsemen must be armed the same way as the majority of foot Marauders in the army, so if I have a couple of units of Marauders with HW and Shield, I can't take Marauder Horsemen with flails... True or false? :)

devolutionary
29-12-2005, 02:59
errr I dont recall seeing that mentioned in HoC I must say.


p.s. You got thiefed. Enjoy!

The Thnikkaman
29-12-2005, 03:23
you can arm your horsemen in any way you want... i think someone was pulling your leg regarding majority of foot marauders. Personally i run 6 horsemen with flails and full command, and when they're not being shot up they are quite good for wiping out smaller units and supporting combats.

Papa Onagal
29-12-2005, 03:49
I would go ahead and model a standard bearer for you horsemen... you don't always have to use him, and extra CR can always come in handy, take it from a TK player (I use every trick I can come with for my skellies since they are so weedy!:skull: ).

100 victory points won't usually make or break you in a battle, but the banner may just be the push that wins some points FOR you.

Besides all of that it may just be a great excuse to convert something cool:cool:

MadJackMcJack
29-12-2005, 09:58
I go with whatever looks coolest. Sure, my gobbos will almost always leg it if they're not watch by a big boss, but damnit, they look much cooler with a banner!

Griefbringer
29-12-2005, 10:46
II was also told that the Marauder Horsemen must be armed the same way as the majority of foot Marauders in the army, so if I have a couple of units of Marauders with HW and Shield, I can't take Marauder Horsemen with flails... True or false?

Based on the level of cluelessness, I presume the person telling this was a redshirt in a local GW store.

New Cult King
29-12-2005, 13:06
Ahahaha... good call :D

No, it was actually a guy in a Warhammer community on LiveJournal. I trust the accumulated wisdom of my Warseer buddies more though, which is why I checked :p

bored1
29-12-2005, 14:10
it's simple. What are you attacking with your marauders:

-war machines: will you need the +1 combat res? You'll start up by outnumber. You'll get 3-4 attacks from horsemen, and 3-4 attacks from horses. Not too many war machine crews can stand up to that.

-light cav/skirmishers: this is where the banner could be handy. You're probably not going to outnumber your opponent. So now you have to rely on combat and combat res. The additional +1 can help. Personally, I think throwing axes are a better solution however, especially for light cav. I don't think the banner is really necessary against skirmishers for the most part.

-flanks/rears of block units. Here it can help. You'll be getting a base of +2 (flank, banner), and your opponent will be starting at a base of +2 (banner, outnumber). Now it's purely kills, and you will probably have more attacks across the same frontage (marauder + horse). However, there's few units I'd risk this against. These units should be charged with another shock unit in the front (chaos knights, chariot, etc), or a unit that provides static combat res on it's own (knights can work, maruaders, warriors).

So, in my opinion, the main uses of marauders don't require a banner. If they carry one, that ups both their initial point cost, and also affords the opponent a chance to take the extra 100 pts (probably the cost of the unit).

Ganymede
29-12-2005, 16:51
But then, there's the strategy of using a tempting banner as bait to put an enemy regiment in a tactically inadvisable position.

Sometimes people get greedy when it comes to capturing banners, and even very good players will make mistakes in this instance.

New Cult King
29-12-2005, 22:27
*pays attention*

There are many more subtleties in this game than 40K. I appreciate everybody's input. It's helping me understand the game more and more :D

Stouty
29-12-2005, 22:36
But then, there's the strategy of using a tempting banner as bait to put an enemy regiment in a tactically inadvisable position.

Sometimes people get greedy when it comes to capturing banners, and even very good players will make mistakes in this instance.

True to that, and heed others! A lot of "good players" see things in a purely VP sense (that's how come they end up beating you despite what it can look like). A banner in a soft unit is a gratuitos (spell check me) treat. A lot of people will declare that charge without thinking, it's just too easy.

Ganymede
29-12-2005, 22:50
Heck, and if you set it up right, you not only break the baited unit and take their banner, but you recover the previously captured banner too. If you are lucky, the unit of marauders will even rally to fight again

bored1
30-12-2005, 14:11
It's true, you can bait with that marauder unit. But you could do that well enough with proper positioning as a threat. The thing about marauders is they hit at s5 (or throwing axes, or both). That makes them a viable threat. So position them in an offensive position and they'll often draw charges.

blood angel
30-12-2005, 18:26
It's 50/50 for me. Sometimes I take a banner and sometimes I don't. It really comes down to having the points to spare or not if I feel like changing up my 'normal' list.

I usually send my maurader horsemen at war machines or solo enemy charaters. After those are dealt with then they are purely for flanking or march blocking.

Always take the AXES and horn blower! :)

sparks
30-12-2005, 20:16
how do marauder horsemen hit at S5? surely they are base str 3 + spears on the charge? as for the other combos, can't really offer any advice, as i haven't started my chaos army yet :(

Festus
30-12-2005, 20:40
One word: Flails...

Greetings
Festus

Ganymede
30-12-2005, 22:14
It's true, you can bait with that marauder unit. But you could do that well enough with proper positioning as a threat. The thing about marauders is they hit at s5 (or throwing axes, or both). That makes them a viable threat. So position them in an offensive position and they'll often draw charges.


but you have to admit, the prospect of an easy banner to someone can be quite an intoxicating proposition. People will prioritise the threat of a str 5 cav unit, and will probably know whether or not it is a safe bet to charge.

The banner can be the bait that makes someone else make a slightly foolish decision.

Nkari
30-12-2005, 22:23
Banner on units you expect to die during the battle is 100 free VP for the oponent.. simple as that.. and Fast cav is supposed to die gloriously during the game.. ;)

Ganymede
30-12-2005, 22:59
I don't know about you, but the fast cav in my army is designed to "dominate" and "kick ass."

antooon
31-12-2005, 08:26
Ganymede: Im stealing that qoute...

Wez
31-12-2005, 12:15
As a rule of thumb, don't give fast cav banners. The banners can be useful, but they can also be a huge own goal. You can't just ditch your banner when you don't want it, which means you can't do certain things with fast cav for fear of getting your banner captured. The points are better spent elsewhere imo.

-Wez

Ganymede
31-12-2005, 15:00
Generally yeah, I would agree with you that taking a banner on your fast cav is a bad idea.

archonbrujah
01-01-2006, 21:36
In order to make it a bad idea for me to take a banner, you have to catch me first. In general, my fast cavalry easily avoids any enemy unit that get's interested in them, picking my charges on their rear lines, or just harrassing with bows, thown axes, whatever.

It all really comes down to what role my fast cavalry, like any unit is intended to play. I rarely play with "disposable units", so I generally gear my fast cav to a flanking, war machine huntung, character smack down role. If I want live bait, then I'd agree that the banner is a waste of points.

Archonbrujah

Neknoh
01-01-2006, 21:45
Though Marauder Horsemen do actually work a lot better IN combat than trying to avoid it, making it harder for them to simply avoid that one unit and harassing it with axes, which turns them into a points intence fast cav unit (you have to give them those expensive axes, and, if having a banner too, that's even more points), which does almost absolutely nothing for the remainder of that game.

Of course, banners CAN be taken, that is for everyone to their own, though I do prefer not to use them, however, when it comes to Champions in Fast Cav units, that's simply stupid, especially if you use them to hunt down lone characters such as mages and the like, the mage simply screams challenge and voila, you have three attacks on him (two from rider, one from horse) instead of four or six (depending on his base size).

archonbrujah
02-01-2006, 01:45
Though Marauder Horsemen do actually work a lot better IN combat than trying to avoid it, making it harder for them to simply avoid that one unit and harassing it with axes, which turns them into a points intence fast cav unit (you have to give them those expensive axes, and, if having a banner too, that's even more points), which does almost absolutely nothing for the remainder of that game.)

Seems we use our fast cavalry differently. I've never seen someone waste more then a turn or 2 at most trying to catch a far more manueverable unit. I'll be honest, I'm probably severely biased, my opponents tend to scoff at fast cavalry until it runs around and destroys all their support units.



Of course, banners CAN be taken, that is for everyone to their own, though I do prefer not to use them, however, when it comes to Champions in Fast Cav units, that's simply stupid, especially if you use them to hunt down lone characters such as mages and the like, the mage simply screams challenge and voila, you have three attacks on him (two from rider, one from horse) instead of four or six (depending on his base size).

I always use champions in fast cavalry (and most units in general).
Even if the mage challenges (and most of my opponents forget about challenges, I tend to as well), he still loses the combat by 1 in most cases. standard and outnumber, best most mage types can dish is 1 wound. I haven't run the points, but that 1 mage I tie up or kill is probably worth about the same as my Horsemen.

Ultimately, it is up to what everyone uses there Marauder Horseman for to decide whether or not they should use the banner. I feel, as others do not, that the few points cost of the banner and the potential to lose 100 vp's is a bargain.

Archonbrujah

Archonbrujah

Trunks
02-01-2006, 05:20
Even if the mage challenges (and most of my opponents forget about challenges, I tend to as well), he still loses the combat by 1 in most cases. standard and outnumber, best most mage types can dish is 1 wound. I haven't run the points, but that 1 mage I tie up or kill is probably worth about the same as my Horsemen.


He was refering to suicide charging a regiment to take out the mage within it I believe. Not fighting lone wizards. If you do a suicide charge to take out a mage, it makes it alot harder to kill the mage (because that is your only goal, not winning combat, you gave up on that to get the wizard) if the mage challenges your champion, cutting down your number of attacks.

Nkari
02-01-2006, 10:19
IF the guy callenges, just decline, you will still get 4 attacks, vs 3 in the challenge... reducing the attacks by 1 instead of 2 if you accept the challenge..

Wez
02-01-2006, 10:58
IF the guy callenges, just decline, you will still get 4 attacks, vs 3 in the challenge... reducing the attacks by 1 instead of 2 if you accept the challenge..
If every model is in combat, I don't think you can decline the challenge.

Might be wrong though.

-Wez

Neknoh
02-01-2006, 11:17
Actually, you have to have a second rank in order to decline challenges, which means that your typical Marauder Horsemen unit (five or six) can't decline challenges if you have a champion

Ganymede
02-01-2006, 16:32
Well... technically, you can also hide on the ends of an especially wide unit.

Neknoh
02-01-2006, 17:53
No, the rules specifikally state that the opponent should take a character/champion and put it in the back-rank

Ganymede
02-01-2006, 18:26
I believe such was resolved in a Q+A, it probably wouldn't be in a rulebook.

Crazy Harborc
03-01-2006, 02:41
IMHO, it's "usually" a waste of points to fieeld fast cav units of 5-7 minies. I prefer to field 10/12 when it's fast cav. I might cut that back to 8 minies for small games.

Ganymede
03-01-2006, 03:46
Absolutely, you really want a lot of fast cavalry models. You really want to be able to take advantage of their rank bonus, and the having twelve models virtually guarantees you outnumber versus most warmachine crews, while 6 models would leave you short.

Wait a second....

Trunks
03-01-2006, 18:49
Depending on your army set up, and how much you rely on the fast cavalry, having large regiments of fast cavalry is a good idea despite the lack of rank bonuses.

If your fast cavalry is going to be used to attack, instead of running around and fleeing, you will want larger regiments. Also, if you anticipate being shot alot, the extra models don't hurt.

I personally prefer to field my Mounted Demonettes in units of 8 to ensure that I get a nice amount to the enemy (six in front rank, 2 in back usually). Of course, Mounted Demonettes are really not your typical fast cavalry (medium cavalry as opposed to light).

Even when I want a "small disposable" unit, I'd prefer 6 over 5 just because I know my fast cav units will be shot at.

Xcercs
04-01-2006, 12:21
mounted daemonettes have 20" charge do they not ? i think that makes them fast or is there something i missed

Neknoh
04-01-2006, 13:07
they can also reform freely, they have all the rules for fast cav.

However, the thing is, they have a rather standard WS, BUT, with 2 strength 4 attacks a piece, 1 strength 3 poisoned always strikes first attack from each stead, AND, to top it all off, units in btb with them (enemy units that is), lowers their Ld with 1, making a flank charge as deadly as a heavy knight charge up front.

Trunks
04-01-2006, 18:19
mounted daemonettes have 20" charge do they not ? i think that makes them fast or is there something i missed

They are very fast. I didn't say they weren't. I just said they aren't your typical fast cavalry. They don't run around shooting things, they don't jump in front of people to flee to set up charges, they aren't "cheap and disposable", they don't do a whole lot of things fast cavalry are usually used for.

They are a close combat cavalry regiment (because they hit fairly hard) that is more maneuverable than all other cavalry. They are similar to Wood Elf Wild Riders, who are in the same situation (no ranged attacks, cannot flee from charges, hit pretty well, have a ward save, get fast cavalry rule).

Bortus
13-01-2006, 19:40
Ah yes, and trust us you should! BTW...heh, heh... good one Griefbringer!