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eyescrossed
08-06-2009, 02:59
Hi again, another question from a newbie :)

I'm just starting Fantasy (don't have any models, but have written a 1000 point Empire list), but I'm wondering, against Lizardmen, are Crossbowmen or Handgunners a better choice?

Also, a similar question, what artillery is worth it? I'm thinking of getting a Cannon and a Helblaster Volley Gun, but I don't know if they're worth it, or if a Mortar might be a better choice than a Cannon, or a Helstorm better than a Volley Gun.

Thanks.

eyescrossed
08-06-2009, 05:37
Or 14 people could look and not bother posting.

Lord Dan
08-06-2009, 06:49
It's even better when it gets up in the hundreds. Don't get too discouraged, there are a lot of lurkers on these forums that would rather read things than write. Occasionally you can draw them in, but usually only if you **** them off.

Back on topic, it depends a lot on the list you're facing. Therefore I'll speak in generalities. The obvious pro to crossbowmen is the 6" extra range, which (again generally) can allow for a whole extra turn of shooting. Handgunners have the armor piercing rule which is fantastic against heavy knights and slow, armored infantry, as it negates their save by -2. All of a sudden those 3+ save Cold ones are saving on a 5+! Pretty nifty. The unfortunate answer is probably both. I take 50/50 in a 2250 list, which means I deploy them wherever I think they will do the most damage. If you're not comfortable with trying to make those kinds of decisions (what with being new to fantasy) I think handgunners are the safer bet.

Both the cannon and the helblaster are very good choices. I don't recommend the helstorm if you're new to the game or if you don't have a good sense of humor, because the darn thing blows up half the time and misses the other half. The mortar can be very efficient, but really only against armies with lots of infantry and in the hands of a good guesser.

2 cannon and 1 helblaster form a solid artillery line.

eyescrossed
08-06-2009, 08:44
It's even better when it gets up in the hundreds. Don't get too discouraged, there are a lot of lurkers on these forums that would rather read things than write. Occasionally you can draw them in, but usually only if you **** them off.
Hehe, okay, thanks for sharing that :D




Back on topic, it depends a lot on the list you're facing. Therefore I'll speak in generalities. The obvious pro to crossbowmen is the 6" extra range, which (again generally) can allow for a whole extra turn of shooting. Handgunners have the armor piercing rule which is fantastic against heavy knights and slow, armored infantry, as it negates their save by -2. All of a sudden those 3+ save Cold ones are saving on a 5+! Pretty nifty. The unfortunate answer is probably both. I take 50/50 in a 2250 list, which means I deploy them wherever I think they will do the most damage. If you're not comfortable with trying to make those kinds of decisions (what with being new to fantasy) I think handgunners are the safer bet.
Okay, I'll go Handgunners first, then. Also, are Hochland Long Rifles on Marksmen worth it?




Both the cannon and the helblaster are very good choices. I don't recommend the helstorm if you're new to the game or if you don't have a good sense of humor, because the darn thing blows up half the time and misses the other half. The mortar can be very efficient, but really only against armies with lots of infantry and in the hands of a good guesser.

2 cannon and 1 helblaster form a solid artillery line.
Okay, I'll do that... Eventually... ;)

The Farmer
08-06-2009, 08:58
Hochland Long rifles are only good if taken in large amounts to reliably pick off softer characters or taken on outriders. Otherwise you are paying quite a bit for a third of a chance of hitting characters (you raise unit cost by 25% in handgunner units).

Twin cannons are "obligatory" in any empire list and have been since sixth edition.
Twin Helstorms are something which can be used effectively (with a bit of luck) and can decimate units. Don't rule it out entirely try them out (proxy) but remember two artillery is always better than one (more reliable).

Against lizzies cannons aim for big monsters, knights kill off skinks and any four legged lizards he may have with them. Avoid combat with his saurus blocks unless you can fully support your infantry blocks they will chew through your infantry.

eyescrossed
08-06-2009, 09:09
Hochland Long rifles are only good if taken in large amounts to reliably pick off softer characters or taken on outriders. Otherwise you are paying quite a bit for a third of a chance of hitting characters (you raise unit cost by 25% in handgunner units).
That's a good point. I always forget about the long range modifier. I hate being a newb ;)





Twin cannons are "obligatory" in any empire list and have been since sixth edition.
Twin Helstorms are something which can be used effectively (with a bit of luck) and can decimate units. Don't rule it out entirely try them out (proxy) but remember two artillery is always better than one (more reliable).
Ah, okay. My friend and I are going to proxy my 40k Daemons I put on square bases as Empire and Lizzies, as we both have barely any units, so that'll be a good chance for me to do so.
Are 2 Helblaster Volley Guns good? OP? Cheesy? Also, my friend was a bit concerned that I was going to field a HBVG in a 1000 point battle and he wouldn't have his 300 and something point Stegadon. I think I convinced him it isn't OP, by explaining to him that even if I get 30 shots, only 10 will hit (assuming the target isn't 12" away), but is there any other way I can convince him?





Against lizzies cannons aim for big monsters, knights kill off skinks and any four legged lizards he may have with them. Avoid combat with his saurus blocks unless you can fully support your infantry blocks they will chew through your infantry.
Ah, okay. So... Knights are a must-have for a working Empire force that isn't a fudging* gunline?



*Replace with another word starting with "fu".

Eulogy2
08-06-2009, 12:36
All of a sudden those 3+ save Cold ones are saving on a 5+! Pretty nifty.

you mean 2+ save becomes a 4+:).

but other wise i think hes right. take a mix. a smart LM player will have skirmishers for a screen in front of his infrantry blocks. the crossbows extra range will help against them, and skinks have crap armor so its plenty to kill then. the hand gunners will be much better against temple guard, cold ones and even saurus warriors after the skinks are cleaned out.

Lord Dan
08-06-2009, 17:13
you mean 2+ save becomes a 4+:).

No. I lie and cheat a lot.

grhino
08-06-2009, 18:42
Depending on whether you know what he will field (more inf. or monsters) I would argue that crossbows are better against his inf. More range and S4, cheaper so more numbers and lizzies don't have too high saves anyway at range.

I'd always take cannons against lizzies, because they can kill off monsters but can also take out his expensive temple guard if neccessary (still a worthwhile target, especially when aiming at characters in the unit - everyone rolls a 1 now and then).

Obviously, more of everything would be best. Consider outriders as well... they can be very annoying for his infantry at close range and pepper their units when standing still!

sroblin
08-06-2009, 20:55
I would argue that crossbows are better against his inf. More range and S4, cheaper so more numbers and lizzies don't have too high saves anyway at range.

Handgunners and Crossbowmen both cost 8 points, so I don't think there's a points advantage. Both are S4 too.

The Lizardmen don't really have any long ranged units (Stegadons with Giant Bow, I suppose, but usually those will be marching forward), all of their ranged units are 8-18" range. So the Crossbowmen mostly make a difference if you get the first turn, giving you an extra round of shooting, (or, I suppose if the Lizardmen don't advance beyond their deployment zone on their first turn.) However, because of their lack of long range shooting, I think the range advantage if less important than usual.

On the other hand, Sauruses and Stegadon units are both packing a minimum 4+ save or higher, and I think the armor piercing is well worth it as those units will be prime targets. So overall I think the handgunners are somewhat better, though the advantages of the crossbow are still definitely there.

As for war machines, Cannons will still be worth it against most Lizardmen lists (between getting to shoot at Stegadons, Slann, Carnosaurs, Razordons, Kroxigors, dense blocks of Sauruses, their are simply too many appropriate targets!), Hellblasters should work OK too. Mortars would be good against skink-heavy lists, but will be unimpressive against everything else; they are a bit too niche to be a all-purpose recommendation for the Empire, unfortunately.

Necromancy Black
08-06-2009, 21:59
When you do go against a slann be careful of them being immune to mundane attacks. This instantly means everything you can do in the shooting phase won't affect them in the slightest.

Also if you can try and prioritise Salamanders. You don't want a flame template causing mass panic in your army.

eyescrossed
08-06-2009, 22:36
take a mix. a smart LM player will have skirmishers for a screen in front of his infrantry blocks. the crossbows extra range will help against them, and skinks have crap armor so its plenty to kill then. the hand gunners will be much better against temple guard, cold ones and even saurus warriors after the skinks are cleaned out.Ah, okay. I will. Probably 2 units of one and 1 of the other.



I'd always take cannons against lizzies, because they can kill off monsters but can also take out his expensive temple guard if neccessary (still a worthwhile target, especially when aiming at characters in the unit - everyone rolls a 1 now and then).


Obviously, more of everything would be best. Consider outriders as well... they can be very annoying for his infantry at close range and pepper their units when standing still!Hmm... I'm thinking of having 2 Cannons, a unit of Outriders and a unit of Pistoliers in larger than 1000 point games. Would that be good? I'm thinking the Pistoliers could get the enemy to "chase the rabbit", or even march to the side out of their charge arc and fire away. How do I use Outriders effectively?



The Lizardmen don't really have any long ranged units (Stegadons with Giant Bow, I suppose, but usually those will be marching forward), all of their ranged units are 8-18" range. So the Crossbowmen mostly make a difference if you get the first turn, giving you an extra round of shooting, (or, I suppose if the Lizardmen don't advance beyond their deployment zone on their first turn.) However, because of their lack of long range shooting, I think the range advantage if less important than usual.

On the other hand, Sauruses and Stegadon units are both packing a minimum 4+ save or higher, and I think the armor piercing is well worth it as those units will be prime targets. So overall I think the handgunners are somewhat better, though the advantages of the crossbow are still definitely there.

As for war machines, Cannons will still be worth it against most Lizardmen lists (between getting to shoot at Stegadons, Slann, Carnosaurs, Razordons, Kroxigors, dense blocks of Sauruses, their are simply too many appropriate targets!), Hellblasters should work OK too. Mortars would be good against skink-heavy lists, but will be unimpressive against everything else; they are a bit too niche to be a all-purpose recommendation for the Empire, unfortunately.Yeah, maybe I'll have 2 units of Handgunners and 1 of Crossbowmen to sit on a hypothetical hill at the back of my deployment zone. Is that unwise?



When you do go against a slann be careful of them being immune to mundane attacks. This instantly means everything you can do in the shooting phase won't affect them in the slightest.

Also if you can try and prioritise Salamanders. You don't want a flame template causing mass panic in your army.If he includes one, it'll most likely have The Focused Rumination, Soul of Stone and Focus of Mystery Disciplines, so it probably won't be immune to mundane attacks. I may be a newb, but I know a few things ;)
Oh, and he likes Razordons a lot more than Salamanders, so I probably won't be facing them, luckily.

Necromancy Black
09-06-2009, 05:27
He'll only take immune to mundane attacks if there's no TG. while it's not a common setup, I strictly play a lone Slann and the people I play can tell you how powerful he can be :p

If he's in the TG he get's Look Out Sir's and can only be seen by large targets and units on hills. Even then, he can't be target individually while within a unit so he's got alot of protection.

Personally I would make Stegadons, Cold Ones and terradons your primary targets. Razerdons arn't going to be as much as impact as Salamanders against Empire, just don't charge them and shoot them with Str 4 shots or Magic Missiles. Skinks can be deailt with by anything you've got, just don't underestimate them. Apart from that, the rest of the army is slow moving that you'll be able to shoot it away quite well.

eyescrossed
09-06-2009, 05:47
Ah, okay, I will.

eyescrossed
09-06-2009, 09:30
I believe he's going to have an Oldblood on Carnosaur. I think he's got a Chief on Ancient Stegadon with Warspear as well.

He's going to definately have Terradons and Sallies/Razordons. Don't really know what else.

Necromancy Black
09-06-2009, 10:07
Oh god, cannon him away :p

But have some knights handy as well. If the shooting goes wrong your going to need to counter charge to save the day. Some detachments on a big block unit with also help make a damn good bump to stop a charge through.

eyescrossed
09-06-2009, 10:21
Would 3 Cannons in 2000 points be considered power gaming?

Also, are Greatswords worth it? I'm thinking they'd have trouble against even standard Saurus.

Are Spearmen ever worth it? I'm thinking only big units of Swordmen with maybe a Halberdier detachment are worth it.

Gork or Possibly Mork
09-06-2009, 10:37
Lol. I just realized you and KillBoss are friends that play together? It's probably not good to talk about exactly everything your gonna bring and do here and Killboss the same in his thread. It'll probably be more fun game with a little of a surprize factor. I could be wrong ( maybe it'll make it more edgy ).

Just saying. You guys should atleast not look at each others threads or ask for advice via private message until your game is played.

I wouldn't consider 3 cannons power gaming @2000 but depending on what else you bring it could be considered pushing it.

From what I hear spearmen are not worth it atleast not without that nifty banner. Greatswords are good not great but only good.

eyescrossed
09-06-2009, 10:55
Yeah, we're playing against each other :D

I probably won't take 3 Cannons though.

Lord Dan
09-06-2009, 16:19
I treat my cannons like scrolls... 1 per 1,000 points.

eyescrossed
10-06-2009, 00:06
Are Dispel scrolls absolutely necessary against Lizzies? He ain't using a Slann, and I think he's going to use an Engine of the Gods, but that stuff can't be dispelled.

I don't think I'm going to use any Dispel Scrolls.



PS: Look at the "A list for a friend" topic ;)

sroblin
10-06-2009, 01:57
Also, are Greatswords worth it? I'm thinking they'd have trouble against even standard Saurus.

Are Spearmen ever worth it? I'm thinking only big units of Swordmen with maybe a Halberdier detachment are worth it.

Sauruses will probably still win against Greatswords, especially if they have spear. But part of the point of Greatswords is, that with the stubborn rule, they aren't likely to break even if they lose combat. So they can be worthwhile if you want to pin a unit down for a turn while you get a flanking unit in place to kill it. But they certainly aren't going to win head-to-head- their charm is they usually hold down to the last man if close to a BSB.

Spearmen are overall less good than Swordsmen, but can be better in some situations where they are fighting against weak infantry like skeletons, goblins, etc., where the extra rear-rank attacks are likely to make a difference. If you fight against skink cohorts, for example, Spearmen would probably be better than Swordsman. But they are worse than Swordsman against tougher units, because they are both more vulnerable (WS3, 5+ armor save) and their own attacks are less likely to make a difference. So they are not pointless, but swordsmen remain in 1st place most of the time.

eyescrossed
10-06-2009, 06:16
Ah, okay. I might consider using Spearmen, then. IF I think he's going to take a lot of Skinks. I really don't like them though. Maybe if they were cheaper...

Not taking any Greatswords though.

Also, go here
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203886
It's the army list I'm thinking of using. Please leave advice if you can be bothered.

Killboss
10-06-2009, 11:04
Lol. I just realized you and KillBoss are friends that play together? It's probably not good to talk about exactly everything your gonna bring and do here and Killboss the same in his thread. I wouldn't consider 3 cannons power gaming @2000 but depending on what else you bring it could be considered pushing it.


Yes, we are having a game togeather. And i am paranoid of gunlines, first 2 games i played were 750s.

Enemy was dwafs, he took a grudge thrower and 14 hand gunners with rune smith, he also took a character hunting, rune high slayer and a small-ish unit of dwafs. First game, my skinks ran off table in his first shhoting turn, in subsequant turns handgunners and grudges blew my saurus the ****. When the was finally a combat his slayer challenged my scar vet, pummeled him because of his 3 attacks, re-rolls to wound AND no armour saves killed him in 3 seconds. Same happened in the second game (except the razordons didn't run.)

So now guns make me very uneasy, and i really hate dwarfs.

eyescrossed
10-06-2009, 11:18
Exactly why I'm not fielding a gunline.

Lord Dan
12-06-2009, 17:51
Yes, we are having a game togeather. And i am paranoid of gunlines, first 2 games i played were 750s.

Enemy was dwafs, he took a grudge thrower and 14 hand gunners with rune smith, he also took a character hunting, rune high slayer and a small-ish unit of dwafs. First game, my skinks ran off table in his first shhoting turn, in subsequant turns handgunners and grudges blew my saurus the ****. When the was finally a combat his slayer challenged my scar vet, pummeled him because of his 3 attacks, re-rolls to wound AND no armour saves killed him in 3 seconds. Same happened in the second game (except the razordons didn't run.)

So now guns make me very uneasy, and i really hate dwarfs.

There are always solutions. Take more skinks, and spread them out in front of your blocks. Unless the handgunners are on a hill, they need to shoot the skinks first (and they'll be at -1 to hit at least). Take some fast units (terradons?) and run them up his flank, just out of the firing arc of the handguns. Since he then can't really do much (grudgethrower can only kill one if you spread them out correctly, and handguns are move-or-fire) you'll be taking out the grudgethrower in your following turn.

Gaius Marius
12-06-2009, 19:09
As for warmachines, 2 cannons are not obligatory. I run 1 Mortar, 1 cannon, 1 Hellblaster. Of course I don't customize my list to my opponent but always use a "take on all comers" list, and a variety of big guns gives you the best flexibility. I also take a unit of Crossbows and a unit of Handguns, at 2000pts, for the same reason.