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Talos402000
07-05-2005, 13:07
Does anybody have any theories as to how new Thousand Sons are created? I'm not talking about old Thousand Sons being ressurected, I mean totally new ones being made. Do they use geneseed and if so, whose? I have a good theory on this but I'll post that later, I want to hear what other players think.

Forgotmytea
07-05-2005, 13:11
I'm not actually sure about that one. I suppose Ahriman has traitor marines joining him all the time, from the Imperium and dissillusioned Chaos Space Marines from other chapters, and I suppose when they get too mutated he casts the rubic of Ahriman again. But, one flaw in that theory - the Rubic of Ahriman was immensely powerful, and required Ahriman and a lot of other sorcerers to cast it, so I doubt they'd be casting it every five minutes.

Maybe they just trap the souls of dead 1k sons like butterfly catchers - you know, eith the big nets.... :p

Puffin Magician
07-05-2005, 13:32
I think this is one of those GW questions that has been boggling people's minds because of it's complexity. Chaos Marines worshipping Tzeentch won't be transformed into Rubrics unless, as Gobbo said, Ahriman continually casts the spell to change them into dust. On the same note, Chaos Marines created from geneseed would also not be Rubrics either.

I don't really have an answer because nothing seems logical [although with Tzeentch, logic seems to take a leap out the window]. Perhaps the Master of Change and Fate intervenes in the process?

Brimstone
07-05-2005, 15:03
Well I don't think they need any new battle brothers as you cannot destroy a Rubric marine just the armour. The marines spirit/soul (whatever) can then be summoned back from the Warp.

Librarians/Sorcerors could still be created from geneseed of the remaining corporial Sons but the mutations wouldn't be pleasent.

Then of course you would have Renegade traitor marines that worship Tzeentch but they wouldn't be Thousand Sons.

Talos402000
07-05-2005, 15:23
Well, I did mention I wasn't talking about the ones who were ressurected...

"The first question I ask myself when tasked to do something that's not obviously and overwhelmingly in my own best interest is, 'Exactly what happens if I don't do it?'"-Colonel Bakshar of the 17th Crucis Hussars to Commissar Flandry shortly before his execution.

Brimstone
07-05-2005, 15:36
Well, I did mention I wasn't talking about the ones who were ressurected...

I know but why recruit new ones when the rest of the rank and file legion is essentially immortal?

Eldacar
07-05-2005, 16:14
AFAIK, the Thousand Sons don't need to recruit new people. Once one of them is killed, his spirit is sent to the Warp, where it will remain, until the Sorcerors of Tzeentch can re-summon him and bind him within either his old armour or, if the old armour was destroyed, they can put him into new armour.

Strikerkc
07-05-2005, 17:04
Eldacar and Brimstone have it right.

In one of the space wolf books, they stumble upon a thousand sons ritual. Then all these spirits fly out of a tear in space and start possessing cultists. The armor forms from this chaos mush around them, and *Poof*, instant thousand son.

Dr Death
07-05-2005, 17:12
I would think that Rubric marines dont pop it quite so easily as they do in the game, this means there are more than enough to go round. The Rubric was a one off therefore "recasting" is extreamly unlikely, and even if it could be done again, ahriman is far too involved in his insatiable quest for knowledge to really bother.

Tzeench doesnt really need warriors so much as it needs puppets, puppets can be your warriors but warriors cannot always be your puppets, therefore rather than recruiting through geneseed and all the rest of it "traditionally" a sorcerer of Tzeench would "commandeer" a force that suited his purpose, tricking them into doing his bidding where they beleive they're benefitting themselves.

Dr Death

Talos402000
07-05-2005, 18:19
Alright, here's my theory on how it's done. The Thousand Sons don't have scouts like other Legions, they have Thrall Wizards. An acolyte of a cult of Tzeentch is taken and implanted with the gene-seed of Magnus the red and joins a Thrall-Wizard Cabal where he is apprenticed to a Sorcerer of the Legion. If he survives his apprenticeship and learns enought to quallify he is placed in his armor, given his boltgun and is tested by having a lesser form of the Rubric of Ahriman cast on him (the lesser form for one marine should be vastly easier to cast than the greater form that destroyed an entire legion). If he survives he emerges as a full fledged Sorcerer. If he dosn't his armor is sealed, his body turns to dust and his soul is trapped forever and he joins the ranks of the Battle-Bretheren as an Automaton. And yes, I have read the Space Wolf books and know about the ressurection process, I was looking for alternatives to that.

Kjell
07-05-2005, 18:54
What I'm really wondering, is what Magnus the Red does to create new recruits. He is obviously none too happy with the RUbric itself and therefore I doubt if he likes the idea of even having Rubric Sons never mind replenishing them. I bt that Ahriman and his fellow sorcerers wouldn't mind, but what does Magnus do?

Does he accept Rubric Sons as something that has happened and as something you might as well keep on using? Or does he loathe them and use every opportunity he has to try and undo them? Are all of his own warriors and guards wielders of magic? Or does he keep some sort of "mundane Sons" for every-day fighting when it's needed?

Strikerkc
07-05-2005, 19:09
Does he accept Rubric Sons as something that has happened and as something you might as well keep on using?

Last I knew, his purpose was to find a way to reverse the curse. I would assume he would want to have all of the ruberics resurected so he could reverse it.

sulla
07-05-2005, 22:07
The only new recruits the Thousand sons need are sorcerors. The rubriks are essentially (forgive the pun) immortal. New sorcerors could be drawn from the ranks of other traitor marines or occasionally other mortals through genetors like fabius bile.

As for Magnus, I hope he would be intelligent enough to realise that the rubrik was as much his patron's plan as it was Ahriman's.

Talos402000
07-05-2005, 22:42
Well, that begs the question is Magnus totally loyal to Tzeentch or does he have his own plans. Personally I think he saw the casting of the Rubric (the preperation of which had to have been hidden from his sight by Tzeentch) as great a betrayl as the Space Wolves attack on Prospero. After the casting of the Rubric Magnus had nothing left. His father was his sworn enemy, his scholar-sons were mostly mindless and incapable of thought, all he had left was revenge. First the Emperor, then Tzeentch (possibly). I think he only serves Tzeentch out of fear.

devolutionary
08-05-2005, 01:42
Well, that begs the question is Magnus totally loyal to Tzeentch or does he have his own plans. Personally I think he saw the casting of the Rubric (the preperation of which had to have been hidden from his sight by Tzeentch) as great a betrayl as the Space Wolves attack on Prospero. After the casting of the Rubric Magnus had nothing left. His father was his sworn enemy, his scholar-sons were mostly mindless and incapable of thought, all he had left was revenge. First the Emperor, then Tzeentch (possibly). I think he only serves Tzeentch out of fear.
Loyalty is not a pre-requisite to Tzeentch. The Rubric of Ahriman was cast to counter the effect Tzeentch was having on the Thousand Sons. Ahriman thought he was defying Tzeentch in doing this, but he was willing to suffer if only to save his brothers (God, Ahriman's a tragic figure. Sanguinus eat your heart out). In doing so, he performed the work of Tzeentch. I mean come on, immortal, spirit-sound tanks and uber sorcerors? Tzeentch loves that sorta stuff. It's even noted that when Magnus went to punish Ahriman, Tzeentch simply laughed in approval, leaving Magnus more than a little dumbfounded.

It doesn't matter if Magnus is not loyal. In his act of possible insubordination he will serve the work of Tzeentch. Khorne may be the strongest of the Gods, Nurgle may be the most prevalent, and Slaanesh may be the most appealing, but Tzeentch is the one with the most puppet strings, marked cards, and weighted dice.

Typheron
09-05-2005, 11:54
i would guess that they would use both methords of recuriting, and probably some others too as it is needed.

Although i have my hesitations about casting a smaller version of Rubric, it was a massivly powerfully spell done on mass, i wonder if it would be worthwhile to do it on a smaller scale just to get some, what are in effect, automations.

It would make far more sence to just resurect the fallen sons as described before and then recurit more marines in a simialr way to the other chaos marine forces. The Rubric was supposed to protect them from mutation which it did but not as Ahriman wanted, i would think he would not want to repeat what could be considered a misjudgement on his part. Im fairly sure he was not entire happy with the results of the spell, thats the thing about chaos, no reciet and no money back garentee...