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self biased
09-06-2009, 14:34
i'm wondering what the demographics are for people who have stopped playing GW games, and why they've stopped playing, out of sheer morbid curiosity. also feel free to speak up for others not present and posting here.

i'm also wondering if there's a group of players that fit this criteria: veteran gamers that would buy models (albeit at a slower yet steadier rate) and play the current edition instead of either not playing (or playing solely a previous edition) and not buying new models if the rules of the game were deemed by this demographic good.* i personally know at least five people who no longer play because the rules of their core game were changed in a way that they didn't like.


* good. yeah, whatever that means. i realize it's a nebulous thing but bear with me.

loveless
09-06-2009, 14:59
Other - they find better games to play. It may not be a matter of changing a WHFB/40K army or upping the cost of models - it could just be that someone gets into Warmachine or FoW more after trying it out and puts their focus on one of those systems.

That being said, I don't personally know anyone who's dropped GW altogether - but I know people who have dropped WHFB or WotR for Warmachine or FoW, though they still play 40K.

TheDarkDuke
09-06-2009, 15:20
I think you may be missing a poll option which is all of the above. i still play GW games so i could be wrong on that, but i think most people would quit do to a combination of those more so then just 1 of them. 1 ofthose options i can see them being upset but 2-3 i can see them being furious and saying screw you to GW and go somewhere else.

My self i could tick off ruined rules for one of my armies (WoC) and over charge for models but seeing as i no longer bother with WoC it might only be over charge for models.

spetswalshe
09-06-2009, 15:21
Probably, for the younger gamers, it's just a case of getting bored, or finding interest in the higher things in life, like girls, cars, drugs, hip hop and not having your trousers done up properly.

For the 'veterans', I'd guess it's the increasing cost. I've never met anyone who stopped altogether for the rules change reason - in most instances rules haven't changed that much, and if you're some games theory rules purist, you probably wouldn't have started in GW games. There are better, more balanced rule sets out there. If it's anti-cheese they're after, it is generally easier to find new opponents than it is to start new armies for new systems. And if they're just miffed because they want to win all the time, well... they could just join Warhammer Online and bully some kids.

The tendency seems to be to try and give up (due to cost, rules or whatever), stay on the fringes for a while then just slide back in (once they bring out a new line of mins, or once your army gets a new army book).

Chaos and Evil
09-06-2009, 15:33
Younger gamers, 99% of them, grow out of GW gaming.


Older gamers often find that the rules of the core games are targetted mainly at kids, and so move on to a more adult-targetted game, whether that be GW's own adult-focused game systems (Epic, Warmaster, BoFA) or game systems from other companies.

liquiddream78
09-06-2009, 15:33
I think most people stop playing because they just get burned out. That has happened to me twice before. I will play religiously for about year or two then just suddenly stop. Usually I just get sick of my horrid dice rolling. Then eventually I will grab a codex and read the fluff and get sucked back in again, which is happening now.

I would have to agree with spetswalshe on the younger gamers. I think we all go through that phase then come back around once we have settled down and have completed the rebellious phase in our lives.

Osbad
09-06-2009, 15:38
I get bored with my army build, want to expand my army or try something new. I then look at the prices, decide that it would be better value to try something else made by someone else and go with that instead. That has pretty much been the case now since 2006/7

self biased
09-06-2009, 16:54
i should probably edit my post to exclude the kiddies. i'm talking about those of us that have been gaming for ages, and have already acquired sizable armies. i've a friend of mine that has 20k in guard, and doesn't play because of his bias against third edition (and its subsequent derivitaves). he would buy some of the new models if he still played the game.

while i agree that the cost of playing the game is getting up there, but it was never really a cheap hobby to begin with. if you think of it in this way: if the game was REALLY GOOD, and every game were enjoyable, you wouldn't mind spending more than an average model kit's worth.

think about what tamyia charges for similar sized kits. there's a decent difference, but if i got more 'enjoyment' out of the GW model, it would be worth more to me.

Dwarf Supreme
09-06-2009, 17:00
Another option is that something new in life takes precedent, like the birth of a child, leaving you with less/no free time.

Zink
09-06-2009, 17:09
I'd have to say all of the above. That plus new rules every few years that fix some spots and make others worse. I agree with improving things but don't care for changing things just to change. I just don't feel like shelling out hundreds of dollars for all the necessary books so I started looking for cheaper alternatives to use my minis with. By switching to generic games I can also design army list for cheaper historical models. I still buy games and minis but GW has gotten very little of my money the last few years. There are more economical choices out there if you don't buy the "GW only" line.

Dwarf Supreme makes a good point too. When my friends and I got married and had kids my gaming went way downhill. Now that the kids are getting older things are picking up again.

isaac
09-06-2009, 17:11
I started a sci-fi napoleonic IG army (you check it out in my sig) and it is looking great. The models are not crazily proportioned (cough*cadians*catachans*cough) ad have a nice style to them already.

Cane
09-06-2009, 19:02
GW has a screwed up system when it comes to rules updates and are priced as if they were parts for a Porsche. The latter is the main reason why people have been leaving the GW hobby over the past few years.

Pokpoko
09-06-2009, 19:14
found better game, that's all. the price rises and so on were pissing me off too, so if i haven't started other games i'd probably just quit in some time, but yeah, it was a case of better rules, better settings(subjectively), and better models that made me turn.

DarthSte
09-06-2009, 20:18
I stopped playing for a few years as I struggled to find opponants of a similar age/outlook on life. Back in again now though.

Znail
09-06-2009, 20:36
Option 3 and 4 are rather connected. Its pretty difficult to convince people to start playing GW games due to the costs, thus its hard to find others to play with.

Desert Rain
09-06-2009, 21:46
Other, people grew older, get a new job, whatever and can't find the time anymore.

I don't think that a lot of people, at least amongst those who have one or more finished armies, quit gaming altogeather just because they increase the price of the models. You might not buy any more models but you can still play the game using the ones that you already own.

Fenlear
09-06-2009, 22:16
The prices make it really hard to get friends into the hobby even if you yourself can afford it. Most people stick around so long as they have at least somebody to play with but every time the price goes up new blood goes down. People quit once opponents run out but the lack of opponents comes back to prices, so I voted 4.

The broken rules don’t help any. Hard to justify paying so much to play a game that isn’t even that great of a game, but I tend to think of this as being more of the final straw for people then the main reason.

The Base
10-06-2009, 00:01
Come on people stop lying here....


They screwed up the rules to my Core game

Well you still have the old rules right? Nothing is stopping you from using them.


They screwed up the rules to my favorite Army

Same as above.


I have nobody to play with but myself.

The only valid option here, maybe increased by the above two points however.


They charge too much for new models

Well you already have your old models. Suck it up, no one quits because of this, you just don't buy new stuff.

"So I spent a year building this army, but then they raised the prices, so I can't possibly play it!"

Yeah makes sense.

self biased
10-06-2009, 01:16
The prices make it really hard to get friends into the hobby even if you yourself can afford it. Most people stick around so long as they have at least somebody to play with but every time the price goes up new blood goes down. People quit once opponents run out but the lack of opponents comes back to prices, so I voted 4.

The broken rules donít help any. Hard to justify paying so much to play a game that isnít even that great of a game, but I tend to think of this as being more of the final straw for people then the main reason.

this point is valid, but shouldn't stop people from playing altogether. i'm trying to figure out why people stop playing altogether. so far there seems to be a chorus of 'they've found better games' which to me says that the player's core game was screwed up and that player has found something else to spend his money on.

the base also expresses some of my cynicism. while i agree that the yearly price increase is likely disproportionate to costs, isn't really as big of a factor for someone leaving the game entirely. someone who wants to continue playing the game will buy models on the cheap through friends or ebay. i've done it, as have others that i know.

Max Jet
10-06-2009, 01:48
They charge too much for new models

Well you already have your old models. Suck it up, no one quits because of this, you just don't buy new stuff.

"So I spent a year building this army, but then they raised the prices, so I can't possibly play it!"

really?
Now what about "I was looking forward to play a decent 1500 - 2000 point game. I bought 500 points and painted them last week.. now all the internet supllier had to raise prices... great.. I will play boring 500 point games till the end of time because I cannot afford increasing the army. Better stop.. what use is a 500 point force.. it's fun for some months, but if you want a change.."

Codsticker
10-06-2009, 05:40
I get bored with my army build, want to expand my army or try something new. I then look at the prices, decide that it would be better value to try something else made by someone else and go with that instead. That has pretty much been the case now since 2006/7

That's where I am at now; largely the combination of constantly creeping prices and a desire to play something different has pushed me towards Flames of War.

snurl
10-06-2009, 05:56
I think they stop playing because they feel that they have to "grow up" as they have been told to do and that "grown ups" don't play with toy soldiers. Or build models. Or paint figures.

I see this every year at the flea market at Historicon where teens are selling their whole collection because they are going to start college or a dozen other excuses. One kid in particular told me I was buying some of his favorite figures. I asked him if he was sure he wanted to sell them, and he said Yeah, I'm getting married. :wtf:
These same folks who sell out early can become rabid collectors later. I know, I was one a long time ago.

The Clairvoyant
10-06-2009, 08:06
I stopped playing 40k when 3rd ed came out because of what they'd done to the rules. I carried on playing 2nd ed for a while but then we all just ended up playing more and more WFB until that became the only thing we played.
When we heard of 5th ed coming out, we all decided it was time to give 40k another shot and make some use out of these armies that have been in the attic for 10 years!

I also used to regularly play epic (2nd edition) and necromunda but that just kinda fizzled out.
Finishing school and getting a job while my mates went to university pretty much wiped out any regular gaming and when we did meet up, we would play WFB.

BrazenSix
10-06-2009, 08:37
I stopped playing many years ago due to life issues, so none of the above. However, I have to admit that during my time thus far on these boards, the supposed inbalance between the armies is causing some concern as people are constantly complaining about the same ones.

Obviously probably a bit exaggerated, but still... there is a reason why different people are complainaing about the same things. Some fixes on the go would be nice, but it's hard with the major publications... it's not like a hot fix for an MMO. :D

Hena
10-06-2009, 09:00
I haven't stopped playing GW games. I have though stopped playing the three main games (well two of them anyway as LotR wasn't around when I was playing more). Why? The rules suck. I don't have an interest in playing with bad rules. I suppose I could dig out the 2nd ed rules, but I don't want to fiddle with the cards anymore (and I'm not sure I even have all the cards). Besides most people want to play the current ruleset.

I do play Epic which is GW game. Again because of the rules.

lorelorn
10-06-2009, 09:07
I voted the screwed up army, as this is the only reason I have ever observed people stopping playing GW games for.

Now I've stopped buying GW product due to the prices, the metals last september, and the plastics more recently. I still play. In fact my wargaming now is more active partly due to being spurred on to seek out new companies and model ranges (so thanks GW!).

People who feel they have been priced out may well keep playing with their existing models - until the next codex/army book change which makes what they have an incomplete army.

Condottiere
10-06-2009, 11:06
It's most likely a combination of reasons.

Most of the older players have a core set of models, so usually they could stomach making a one time payment for a kit they actually want, the raised prices might upset them and won't be the sole reason that they quit.

If you look at Apple, the corporation at least presents an illusion that they care about their customers.

But opportunity to play is also a factor - if no one is nearby who could be an opponent, or Real Life happens, or other stuff is just more interesting.

Havock
11-06-2009, 00:19
A variety of reasons.
If not for a 50% discount at a local hobby store (who are moving to a different location...) I wouldn't have started my empiretonnian army.

Vic
11-06-2009, 18:22
Ive found myself back to Flames of War for the time being, checking in here now and then just to keep current. Price kind of put me off quite a bit, and my children play with what Ive bought sooooo......

neXus6
11-06-2009, 19:07
I've stopped playing 40k because I've just not taken to the new rules.
The prices seem to have all but ended the expantion of my Fantasy armies but as long as the rules are still okay I'll keep playing with the models I've got.

The boyz
11-06-2009, 19:16
Continuous price rises, uninspiring miniatures and a few other reasons. Have for the most part, generally put me off. I still play SG's quite a bit though.

I can (usually) get cheaper, better looking miniatures else where. And have found other more enjoyable games to play, mainly Historicals.

Caiphas Cain
11-06-2009, 19:23
Probably, for the younger gamers, it's just a case of getting bored, or finding interest in the higher things in life, like girls, cars, drugs, hip hop and not having your trousers done up properly.



Ha ha! You made my day!

GAWD
11-06-2009, 20:46
I used to post here a lot more ... now I only drop in when I'm bored out of my mind.

Why did I stop playing GW games:

The more I was exposed to other games, the more I came to realize several things.

1. The rules for GW games are absolutely abominable. It doesn't matter what edition; they pretty much suck. There are far better rules systems out there, and GW has repeatedly either refused or proven incapable of freshening up their stale core rules and balance their game environments (i.e.: the lists against each other)

2. GW's pricing is absolutely ridiculous.

3. GW is a cancer that festers in the mini wargaming community, creating mindless zombies incapable of critical thinking and slavishly licking their boots.

scarletsquig
12-06-2009, 06:48
Girlfriend.

jullevi
12-06-2009, 07:12
I don't play GW games a much, but I still enjoy collecting miniatures and see them (slowly) grow into armies. Games Workshop core games require a lot of time and effort to play and yet they usually occupy only two players at time. In the same time I can hook up with 3 or 4 friends and play several games of Race for the Galaxy, Agricola or other games that are actually good.

I occasionally go to tournaments to showcase a new army and meet some old friends and I used to participate in huge games (say, 15k points and 1500+ miniatures) once or twice a year but one-off games are something that I have never found worth the time and effort.

Condottiere
12-06-2009, 08:30
Girlfriend.Once you upgrade to wife you can start again.

DarthSte
12-06-2009, 11:17
Once you upgrade to wife you can start again.

It's true! Bizarre but true!

By the point they've signed on the dotted line, it is too late, you can bring out your Aqua cd's and Boyzone T-shirts, they can't do anything about it!

Crazy Harborc
13-06-2009, 02:24
My longtime, old fart, regular opponents and I are not limited to one or two rules systems. We have been and do buy minies from several companies.

We have played GW rules systems for decades. We even went through periods of only using GW rules and minies.

IMHO, there are two wargaming camps in our area. There are the GW only players and the very little to none of GW players/users/buyers. Local, non-GW game days occur thru out the year.

There are local indies that allow GW games players to use their tables. IMHO, it's more because the indies hope to "expand the gamers interests". Translation....get them into other parts of the hobby of wargaming...now that GW pulled out of the St.Louis area.;)

Etienne de Beaugard
13-06-2009, 03:44
I really wish this poll had allowed multiple items to be checked. My decision to stop playing GW games was effected by all of the reasons listed (though price had the most to do with it.)

40k - I stopped right before 4th ed. came out. There were three main factors. First, I moved and started a new career. I lost my playing group and my free time was more limited. Second, I had become bored with my current army, but recent changes in prices made buying a new army out of the question. Third, the direction the rules were heading would have required re-tooling my army to remain competitive (again, more money.) Lastly, I enjoyed WHFB far more than 40k.

WHFB - After a year of not painting or playing (due to the same constraints on free time that hit 40k) and moving into a smaller apartment, keeping the army around just did not seem viable.

Now that free time and income have both increased again, I have not returned to GW games due to prices. At GW retail, kitting out a basic force to the level where I would enjoy games would set me back about $400 (including models, books and painting supplies). It just doesn't seem worth it.

Skirmish level historicals, on the other hand, is becoming very, very tempting.

starlight
13-06-2009, 04:20
Biggest reasons to stop playing - lack of value/lack of opponents or space/lack of time

Biggest reason to stop *buying* (different issue) - lack of value


Personally I still buy second hand and collect, but lack of space and time keeps me from playing. :( Dedicated hobby space is an important feature in any house I will buy. :)

WallyTWest
13-06-2009, 05:17
I have quit several GW games over the years; The bigest reason is that they stop supporting them!

BFG, BB, MOW, WH Skirmish, Warbands, Battle of 5, Epic and the list goes on.

starlight
13-06-2009, 05:42
Most of those I never really got into...because of a lack of support... :(

Kriegfreak
13-06-2009, 08:07
I stopped playing for a few years as I struggled to find opponants of a similar age/outlook on life. Back in again now though.

Ditto, and price was obviously a factor for quite a bit. Priorities ect.

Gaebriel
13-06-2009, 08:16
I stopped playing due to a combination of

the clearing out of the miniature archives, ie no older models to buy
the end of the bitz-order-system, ie no cheap conversion opportunities
the increasing prevalence of plastic over metal
price rises
rules issues

not neccessarily in that order...

Condottiere
13-06-2009, 09:11
An interesting reason is the lack of space - while if you are enthusiastic enough, anywhere will do, it's a lot easier in a large room with a large table, with an amiable atmosphere.

htj
13-06-2009, 09:36
I stopped playing the first time because I left school, went to university, and had no-one to play with (or rather, that I wanted to play with). Gradually lost interest until I bluffed my way into a job at one of the stores and started again. Made that Sisters of Battle army I'd always wanted. I stopped again when I got made redundant due to 'company restructuring.' Then, out of the blue, one of my friends got into it and here I am, wasting my money of toy soldiers again.

I can't understand why people would stop playing because they don't like the new rules. You can still play with the old ones. Even then, I like the new rules, the way they are heading. Sure, there are problems, but my God 2nd Ed. 40k was so much more broken than 5th Ed.

As long as there are people to remind me how cool the fluff is, and GW keep releasing beautiful new miniatures, I'll be wasting my money on toy soldiers.

Oh, and my girlfriend is surprisingly tolerant.

W0lf
13-06-2009, 11:10
At first i thought easy its the price.

This recent price increase (more so the Goldswords and ridiculous guardsmen repackage) made me consider just how much i value everything they sell. Its really opened my eyes for the first as to just how needlessly expensive it is. I thought the price increase was terrible and decided to vote with my wallet.

However i have 2 fantasy armies both at around 5K and more 40K stuff then i care to use (that is to say any 40K stuff). So this dosnt stop me playing, just buying.

Then i considered that i have been playing less and less amongst my group which was fueled by my despair at the WoC book after playing almost exclusivly hordes(+BoC add-ons) for 2 years.

What has stopped me playing most however is the fact i convinced some mates to try PPs Hordes with me. Honestly id rather play that then any other game, its the ebst ruleset ive ever seen and play so well.

Chaos and Evil
13-06-2009, 14:01
I can't understand why people would stop playing because they don't like the new rules. You can still play with the old ones. Even then, I like the new rules, the way they are heading. Sure, there are problems, but my God 2nd Ed. 40k was so much more broken than 5th Ed.

It's not because of a lack of balance, it's because the rules are more child-appropriate than they are adult-appropriate.

htj
13-06-2009, 14:30
It's not because of a lack of balance, it's because the rules are more child-appropriate than they are adult-appropriate.

How so? What makes the current ruleset child orientated?

thenamelessdead
13-06-2009, 14:37
I quit for a variety of reasons but the main one has to be the cost. It's too expensive to have as an occasional, background hobby. If you're playing games and painting all the time it's worth the expense but if you haven't the time or space (this is important) then it is no longer worthwhile. I'm surprised more people don't talk about the space issue. The cost of living is ridiculous in this country and it's not easy to find the precious space required by a few large armies and a wad of books. Plus the issues regarding tables and storage for other things like scenery.

tezdal
14-06-2009, 03:02
For me its price, being general a$$holes...and frankly...if Im going to give lots of money out for miniatures, I'd like to do it to american company...(and a Texas one at that, yes Im looking at you Reaper). The one thing I still enjoy about GW is their background fluff, which is the main reason If ever I pick up a O&G mini thats is goofy enough for my tastes. Lol Space being an issue? Ive never heard that as a reason to not wargame before...must be from living in the country.

starlight
14-06-2009, 03:08
Nope, from focusing on kids and people who live in the city.

Too many customers living in apartments means less space for storage, et al.

Too many gamers too young to have their *own space*.

Too much focus on the quick sale and not enough on maintaining the relationship. :( GW talks about *hobby support*, but they're the ones who should be setting the example... :eyebrows:

tezdal
14-06-2009, 04:00
Nope, from focusing on kids and people who live in the city.

Too many customers living in apartments means less space for storage, et al.

Too many gamers too young to have their *own space*.

Too much focus on the quick sale and not enough on maintaining the relationship. :( GW talks about *hobby support*, but they're the ones who should be setting the example... :eyebrows:

*sigh* I wish I had enough minis to fill up all my space lol. Still, couldnt you just get a bookcase e.t.c to stack up thousands upon thousands of minis on? thats what I do

Easy E
14-06-2009, 04:04
Come on people stop lying here....

They charge too much for new models

Well you already have your old models. Suck it up, no one quits because of this, you just don't buy new stuff.

"So I spent a year building this army, but then they raised the prices, so I can't possibly play it!"

Yeah makes sense.

Except that now your army isn't "legal" anymore, so to try and buy more is just too much money to bother with.

Plus, try to convince someone to play non-Tourney legal lists... go ahead... I'll be waiting right here.

starlight
14-06-2009, 04:14
*sigh* I wish I had enough minis to fill up all my space lol. Still, couldnt you just get a bookcase e.t.c to stack up thousands upon thousands of minis on? thats what I do

It's not the space for an army case or two, it's the space for the terrain (both gaming and storing), a place to build and paint, a place to display, a place to...

When all the armies I have built were on display it took four shelves running two feet deep and ten feet wide...and I *still* had armies in boxes and unassembled...:(

Crazy Harborc
14-06-2009, 04:37
Sadly, GW has tried to recruit young(er) players who know nothing about wargaming other than GW's rules and minies. Many of those gamers are game players. GW's version of wargaming is another game to play.

As those young(er) newbies mature/growup into adults, they move on to uni, to careers/jobs, to adult interests....to adult expenses they must earn money to pay for.

A good gaming table NEEDS to have built in storeage, be it shelves or drawers (that saves space).

A fold up table that you actually have a storeage space (a deep closet) for. Saves space to be able to store it when not in use.

Why do people stop playing GW games?........They grow up. They out grow GW's games. They discover other minies, other rules. When it's THEIR own money, they notice how high GW's prices really are when compared to other minie's makers. They notice how prices have increased and what you get has decreased.;)

Penitent
15-06-2009, 00:47
I haven't quit 40k altogether (insert over-used Brokeback Mountain line here), but my miniature purchases have pretty much come to a halt over the past year.

The costs, I feel, have become exhorbitant. I remember 10-man metal tacticals costing $20 USD, now 10 plastic cost $35. Back in 94, I purchased a squad of five wraithguard for $30, now the same would cost me $75.

It isn't so exhorbitant that I won't pick up occasional units to fill out armies I already have, but I can't justify new armies/games. Aside from rising cost, as I get older other necessities, and other hobbies, compete for money. It isn't so much that I can't justify the expenditure, as it isn't important enough for me, compared to other life priorities and hobbies.

I've heard others give up 40k, and GW entirely, not for a lack of opponents, but a lack of opponents with decent personalities.

SonoftheMountain
15-06-2009, 01:09
I am seriously thinking about taking a break from 40k due to the 5th ed ruleset. About 90% of the games I have played in 5th Ed have ended in draws. It just get old playing draw after draw.

starlight
15-06-2009, 01:38
Actually, that's the ideal outcome between equally matched opponents... :)


It shows that the lists are fairly balanced... :)

ivrg
15-06-2009, 01:47
Someone said here that a girlfriend can be a reason for stop playing. Girls generally thinks its nerdy to play games like warhammer. But if you stand up for yourself and explain what its about and that its not just about boys playing with their toys soldiers, they tend to accept it a little bit.

I like the fantasy and world of both whfb and 40k, but as i see it there are two things about the game i dont like.

1. Prices are now so high its becoming painful to start new armies or add in new units.

2. New armies are being designed to have an edge over others. With some apperent unbalance and broken units/items/abilities.

I think this is discouraging many players, but i dont know. The game is still fun in many ways ofc.

SimonL
15-06-2009, 02:06
Someone said here that a girlfriend can be a reason for stop playing. Girls generally thinks its nerdy to play games like warhammer. But if you stand up for yourself and explain what its about and that its not just about boys playing with their toys soldiers, they tend to accept it a little bit.


It is about boys playing with their toys lol. Don't try to make it any "cooler", hell my gaming group refers to it as "playing dollies". You know what women like much more than you explaining how cool your not-toys are? Simply telling them what you're doing and don't apologize or make it seem more "adult". Confidence is your friend lol.

Besides, anyone who would judge you on that deserves to be cast aside quicker than the Squats...

starlight
15-06-2009, 02:38
Someone said here that a girlfriend can be a reason for stop playing. Girls generally thinks its nerdy to play games like warhammer. But if you stand up for yourself and explain what its about and that its not just about boys playing with their toys soldiers, they tend to accept it a little bit.

That's exactly what it's all about! :eyebrows: A bunch of guys (sometimes gals) having fun playing. It's not heroin, or stalking or (heaven forbid!) *golf*! :eek: It's a game, we play it with toys, we have fun.


If she won't let you have a hobby like table-top gaming, where do yon boundaries lie...? :eyebrows: I'll bet she doesn't tolerate any criticisms of *her* activities...rhetorically speaking... :(

VenrableOne
15-06-2009, 06:47
I would say mine is the domino effect of three of them.

First they screwed up the rules by making them bland and unbalanced. Movement and AP are a couple of examples.

This lead to the gaming group dissolving over a very short period of time. Sure we still played the old edition but there would be no new races. Everyone who quit was another nail in the coffin.

Now some of the old group members look at the game and wouldnít mind trying it until they see the price. Itís not like they canít afford to buy into it but (and thatís a big but) that money can be spent on other things. Things we know wonít change on a corporate whim that there is a new demographic to chase after and the rules will need to be revamped for this quick buck.

Condottiere
15-06-2009, 07:08
What's daunting can be once you realize the scale of what the overall cost involved is, if you are trying to create a fairly sizeable army, not just money, but time as well.

GideonRavenor
18-06-2009, 14:15
It tends to be a case of playing them less and less, never getting around to painting anything and being busy doing other things; rules rarely come into it, as far as I've seen.

genestealer_baldric
18-06-2009, 14:44
it seems to happen around 14/16 people stop playing when the discover beer and girls etc.. then around 22/23 they come back into it its what seem to be a genral rule near here.

Archaon
18-06-2009, 14:51
Other

I started wargaming in the early 90s and played exclusively GW games because that's about it in the 90s for that hobby (wasn't interested in historical games at all).

Back then it was even affordable on a students budget and we didn't much care for the powerlevel.. we simply used it and bashed our heads in.

Other games had it hard to find a player base (Warzone for example.. ruleswise far superior to 40K) which is why most companies went under so quick so after being burned once or twice you simply accepted the fact that it's GW and nothing else.

Now we are in the new millenium.. i tend to look at the game with a more critical mind, i see the constant price hikes and i see other companies emerge that are here to stay.. Privateer Press, Battlefront and others which produce games that are both interesting, have good models and are affordable (either different scales thus cheaper or you simply need less minis).

I now have a steady job so price isn't the most important factor (not married, no kids and no mortgage) but game playability is.

I've all but stopped buying GW products because the game just isn't fun anymore. The power creep is worse than ever and the game becomes outright detestable when attending bigger tourneys where all you see are current top tier armies with some of the most insane armybuilds ever.

Then i see other games with better rules, smaller investment costs that return my joy.. i have recently spent over 300 Euro on a new Flames of War force without blinking an eye and still plan to spend 100-200 more before calling it day for now but i don't care.. why? Because i really like the game, it's fun, the rules and armybooks work and are well balanced (not perfect but then nothing is).

I am looking into other games that have good reputations (Infinity, Wings of War, waiting on the status of Helldorado.. awesome minis and i hope someone buys the company and keeps going).

So to sum it up.. GW have f...ed up the rules for the entire system and they are too expensive to play a game where i gripe about the rules and armybooks to be fun anymore.

Now there are other alternatives available where i can find other players so why should i let myself be tortured by a company i have all but lost interest in?

mark.k
18-06-2009, 16:46
other - playing Warmachine now i still look up the 40k stuff from time to time

Earl_UK
18-06-2009, 16:53
For me, i just got sick of painting. Its never ending LOL, then getting married, not having a garage any more and another child was the final nail in the coffin.

But I still play DoW (looking forward to BB and SM later this year) that keeps me happy, and I dabble a little on eBay with what's left of my armies etc.

dancingmonkey
18-06-2009, 17:19
I didn't realise I had stopped until last week when I played a game of Warhammer and came to understand it was too limited and silly for me to enjoy any longer.

Having been focused on PP for the last year, I decided to play 7th ed fantasy with the new D.Elves.

The game was a stagnant crawl to a draw with events based around LOS issues and everything relying on a one dice roll. Mass blocks of Inf bounced off each other, elite elves lost to goblins and I just realised I no longer cared for the game.

I seem to have switched to skirmishy games with less stagnant army builds.

this realisation has led me to decide to sell my fantasy stuff and what's left of the 40K.

I really think this is the end for me and GW. I will finish painting my Epic armies and am pondering my Empire, but its all just sat there for a bit too long.

Which isn't to say I have not been gaming...

Coragus
18-06-2009, 17:51
When I started in college, I was playing 2nd ed. 40K, Epic, Blood Bowl, and 5th ed. Fantasy. There was a local game store and all my friends played. I could throw my stuff in the car, drive to the store, and pick a fight on the spot. I could also call a friend and say, "Want to play tonight?" It wasn't something I had to force.

Now, I live in an area where I don't have any friends that play. I can drive half an hour to the store to play with strangers on Saturdays, but that means I spend all day away from the family. What I want are friends that can come to my house and play as a social exercise. What GW has turned into is a time sink and something that I'd have to force myself to.

That's why I no longer consider myself in the hobby.

2theDeath
18-06-2009, 18:10
I stopped playing 40k in 1997, i just got bored & the games on Playstation where just starting to get better.

However this year i've started from scratch, this time however i'm playing fantasy.

Earl_UK
18-06-2009, 23:21
id have to add World of Warcraft does also eat my "gaming time" when i actually get some

Crazy Harborc
19-06-2009, 00:49
I tried and played for a while, a PC wargame (about 3 years ago). I got bored with on-line gaming too and have been back at real tabletop/wargaming.....mostly WAB, then got into Field of Glory, last summer.

That was a year ago. Now my long time, old fart, regular opponents and I are happy with FoG. We are "thinking about" trying out ECW. We have copies of the WAB version of rules for ECW.

ryntyrr
19-06-2009, 10:31
I left for the same reasons I change my old Commodore 64 20 years ago. I got into a better game system and cooler models (in my opinion which is not law).

From a hobby prespective the models I use I feel are far better for constructing and painting. The rules sets I use now from other gaming companies like Privateer Press are far superior again this is my personnel opinion and is subjective to my own tastes.

Also the fact that a friend of mine who I game with on a weekly basis refused to collect a GW army for 8 years for various reasons then suddenly got back into table top wargames because of Warmachine & Hordes was a big factor as well. Also a shock in the system system since I tried for years of getting him into GW games.

I find the GW games too chunky & clunky and models inferior to what else is out there (in my opinion). For me and only me as I can only speak for myself. It was the best move I have made for my hobby and wish I had done it 4 years ago. I am having allot more fun and a I feel that my hobby now is supporting me the way it should. I haven't had as much fun as I am having now!

My hobby now is also not dependant of fat cat shareholders. Who in my opinion have taken GW to the wrong & opposite direction in the hobby of what some like myself would spend their expendable income on.

In all honesty. My interest stopped when GW in my mind became a Sales business based purely for sales & Profits and nothing else. I know people are going to say well that is what companies are there to do... but making a quick buck is easy.

The hard way is a hobby company making sales on the basis of improving their games and models whilst keeping their gamers feel every bit as valued all the time. I feel Privateer Press personifies all the good stuff of that and more.

Crazy Harborc
20-06-2009, 02:02
Not too long ago, I played in a couple of 15mm colonial (Sudan) games and also in 15mm, joined in 3-4 WWII games. Rules names are gone for now.:eek:

So many stes of rules, so many different minies for periods galore. Different scales to play in to.;)

Archaon
20-06-2009, 17:46
Yeah.. it's crazy how many games are out there besides those with a GW logo.

And they are equally fun if not more so for part of the cost! ;)

Duke Georgal
21-06-2009, 04:01
Yeah.. it's crazy how many games are out there besides those with a GW logo.

And they are equally fun if not more so for part of the cost! ;)

I play Flames of War, and I can assure you that it is not less expensive than any GW game.

I also collect top quality figures from many manufacturers, and GW prices are not out of line here either.

Board games are really shooting up in price too. Agricola is $80.00! A full set of Catan games is over $200.00 now.

If you are refering to skirmish games, yes they are cheaper becuase you need fewer figures. However, I have seen many players lose interest in these games quickly.

There is nothing stopping anyone from playing small skirmish games of fanstasy or 40K if money is a big concern.

Archaon
21-06-2009, 15:07
I play FoW too and it is cheaper.

FoW doesn't base miniature cost on game effectiveness but on material needed. Standard Tank now costs 9.50 Euro and big tanks like Tigers cost 11.50.

If you buy your company with a little foresight and planning i can assure you that with 200 Euro you will get a good force able to play up to 2000 points (on the bigger end of standard games) and still have a few things to swap out and vary forces.

And i haven't even begun on cross-company usability if you stay with oine country.

Show me a GW army built with the same kind of money without being very focused (all plastic models with high unit costs like Chaos Warriors).


GW prices for metal miniatures are not out of line.. that is true. But their game system demands far more quantity before they are usable tactically on the gaming board and that's what drives people away from GW.

GW is also the market leader of price hikes (or as they call it "price adjustments").. many companies can go twice or three times the amount of time of a typical GW price hike (often every year).

This is why many people stop playing.. they have enough stuff and don't see the point in either starting a completely new army (cost) or don't see the point replacing miniatures for existing armies if there's no need. Then they get less fun games with the huge imbalances of certain armies and they start to spread out and see what else is out there and now there's sufficient high profile games out there to be a real alternative.

Crazy Harborc
21-06-2009, 18:08
I am really not into WWII wargaming....nor WWI. I am into historicals from ancients up to the 1600s in 25-28mm;). I have hundreds of minies for several different periods. That totals up to over 2800 non-GW minies. ALL of them did cost less than GWs minies did or do now.

I have met hundreds of GW systems players, GW product buyers. Off hand 3, three, III of them are still big time GW players. More power to them.

There's another hundred wargamers I track. They do very little GW gaming these days. Some still use a few GW minies in their current armies, their current periods of play.

To cut it short.....NOT flaming or aiming at any posters. I don't "need" to brag about how much my minies cost. It doesn't matter if the minies are "the latest" version of Chaos warriors, HEs, Eldars or whatever. I am done with buying GW newest, improved, whatevers....all at a new higher price...until next year's price increases.

To those who are addicted to GW. Good luck, enjoy the ride....while it lasts.
To the possible GW higher up (NOT too likely I know).

This thread is part of many, many threads slam dunking GW. Hundreds, thousands of posts. The critics increase in numbers, the number of sales and the amount of incoming money fall short of projections. Figure it out Mr/Ms. GW suit. The main complaint was and is pricing. Perceived GW company attitudes towards the public/customers. The heck with it.

More later. Enjoy wargaming in whatever set of rules with whomever's minies.

parus_ater
21-06-2009, 18:30
Thing is, does that mean that Warseer needs to update it's own definition of itself on the front page? It does say "WarSeer is a large community dedicated to reviews, news and discussion about Games Workshop products including Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer and many of their specialist games."

People really only know GW games in the mainstream and even this board has other non-GW systems below podcasts and the sale board. Could it be that people are drifting from GW systems out of boredom, loss of muse, interest or whatever and see nothing fresh?

Currently I tell people that I'm a historical tabletop gamer but I have many fantasy and 40K armies I collected in the past, FoW, Napoleonic, LoTR and I will go back to them in the future. But people who have no other modelling/gaming interest can easily never go back.

Fenlear
21-06-2009, 18:42
I've been coming around to the notion of playing more Historicals. I never cared for it because I much prefer the fantasy and sci-fi stuff but there is one major advantage to the Historicals; the companies making the miniatures usually are not the companies making the rules. For some reason once you have the same company making both everything costs 5-10x as much. It seems once models are “official” you can convenes super dorks to pay anything not to mention the rules get broken because the companies using them as a means to motivate further sales. Every Warhammer Historical I’ve read seems to be extremely well balanced and all the companies listed to get miniatures from are charging what I use to pay in the 90s for GW. Lack of opponents seems less of a concern for Historicals because I can more easily afford to buy 2 armies and let my opponents use one until they get more interest.

Duke Georgal
21-06-2009, 20:11
I play FoW too and it is cheaper.

If you buy your company with a little foresight and planning i can assure you that with 200 Euro you will get a good force able to play up to 2000 points (on the bigger end of standard games) and still have a few things to swap out and vary forces.

I started Flames of War with a mid-war soviet army. After buying 10 T-60, 9 T-70, 21 T-34, 30 stands of Infantry, 2 Katyusha, 6 AA guns, some artillery, and who knows how many ZIS-5 trucks I can assure you it was just as expensive as any GW army.

If you want to do FoW on a budget, you really need to study the force organization charts and choose something that requires very few models, and forget about ground pounders!

As far as overpriced models, I guess you never bought a FAMO? $18.00 for a 5 point model! What about 6 Morris AA trucks for a British player? $61.00 for six ZERO point models! But, you need to have them.


I've been coming around to the notion of playing more Historicals. I never cared for it because I much prefer the fantasy and sci-fi stuff.

Seriously: give Flames of War a look if it interests you at all. The rules have more in common with tabletop fantasy gaming rather than most historical rules sets. Very easy to pick up and quite fun, but not historically accurate as the purists love to point out. If you find you don't like the rules, there are plenty of other more accurate historical rules sets you can use. A 15mm sherman tank will always be useable no matter whose rules you are using. That is the biggest advantage. You can't use a Wave Serpent in any historical game, that Sherman can be used in all of them.

Chaos and Evil
21-06-2009, 21:50
I want to try some historical gaming at some point in 15mm or 6mm... FoW's rules are too dumbed down for me though.

Lord of Worms
21-06-2009, 22:17
It's true! Bizarre but true!

By the point they've signed on the dotted line, it is too late, you can bring out your Aqua cd's and Boyzone T-shirts, they can't do anything about it!

Yes she can. She can commit suicide from the shame of it all.;)

Archaon
21-06-2009, 23:00
I started Flames of War with a mid-war soviet army. After buying 10 T-60, 9 T-70, 21 T-34, 30 stands of Infantry, 2 Katyusha, 6 AA guns, some artillery, and who knows how many ZIS-5 trucks I can assure you it was just as expensive as any GW army.

If you want to do FoW on a budget, you really need to study the force organization charts and choose something that requires very few models, and forget about ground pounders!

As far as overpriced models, I guess you never bought a FAMO? $18.00 for a 5 point model! What about 6 Morris AA trucks for a British player? $61.00 for six ZERO point models! But, you need to have them.



[/color]

Yeah.. you probably realized this yourself but you chose the financially most expensive army out there.. Soviet Horde. Any horde army is expensive in every system.. go out and buy a Skaven or Goblin army for Fantasy and you'll still outspend FOW.

And the transport vehicles you mentioned (FAMO, Morris trucks) are not mandatory anymore to field since 2nd edition rolled around so you don't actually need to buy them unless you are planning on lugging your heavy equipment around during the game (extremely decreasing their effectivenes and making them highly susceptible to enemy fire) or if a special scenario makes them very useful. At least not if your opponents give you a bit of leeway because transports are usually immediately sent to the rear once the heavy guns are deployed and most probably the requirement to have them according to the list will vanish when the new Africa book is released in August

Normal 6x4 tables have rarely need for transports anymore.

So your argument is rather a red herring but FOW is not the theme of this thread so i'll end this.

Crazy Harborc
22-06-2009, 03:22
Is FoW 15mm or 25-28mm?? Is there something in the rules that you MUST use the "offical" FoW brand name minies and or models only?

I have not seen a FoW game in a couple of years. I thought the minies were 15mm. Those prices you guys have mentioned seem very high for 15mm scale models.

Perhaps all the cheaper plastic WWII vehicles and soft plastic minies are OOP.

If any of you were into WHFB check out WAB or FoG rules There are also other ancients, medieval and whatever periods rules in print.

There are more than one set of WWII rules out there too. I don't have any links BUT there are rules, etc available on line.

Good luck with discovering more of the many, many wargaming rules and minies that ARE available.

parus_ater
22-06-2009, 09:07
Is FoW 15mm or 25-28mm?? Is there something in the rules that you MUST use the "offical" FoW brand name minies and or models only?



They're 15mm approx and no, there's no rules that limit you to using only their own produced miniatures - in fact it is sort of encouraged - the only limit is that you're not allowed to post pictures of third party models on the official forum including any tourny shot you took of your game in action.

isaac
22-06-2009, 09:11
That sounds perfectly reasonable

The_Warsmith
22-06-2009, 09:53
GW charging too much for the models is driving me away however as an unemployed student i can't afford to start historical games either because to do that i'd need rulebooks and collect my first historical army at least with GW games i have everything i need to play.

Gazak Blacktoof
22-06-2009, 10:19
Rules for the core game are a big concern for our group. The hobby always seemed fairly pricey while we were growing up but now that we've got established armies the few items we need for our existing armies don't put too much of a strain on the finances, though I still refuse to pay silly money for Pariah models.


My group stopped playing 40K because it lacked depth and 5th seems like even more of a kick in the danglies. We've been working on an alternative rule set for a long time and its now on its fourth or fifth overhaul as part of its development.

We've started collecting together some models to start playing warhammer historical and whilst warhammer fantasy is still really enjoyable the added tactical rules for the historical game seem a big improvement. The studio would have done well to look at some of the rules for elite troops in that game for the elves of WHFB.

I've also put a lot of work into making a revision of the tomb king rules, however its probably just a matter of time and experience with the historical rule set before we begin thinking about moving the fantasy army books over to it.

Coming back to the cost- After seeing the new orky vehicles I was tempted to start a new force for 40K, however once I looked at the cost I did a swift u-turn. It seems unlikely I'll be starting a new army for any of the core games in the foreseeable future.


I voted "They screwed up the rules to my Core game".

Its the models and background that bring me back to GW's worlds.

DeeKay
22-06-2009, 11:21
I have to go with "Other".

Yes, they keep screwing around with my favourite armies (Chaos for both systems) and in their newest books, they don't even seem to regard the older fluff that made me like the Chaos armies in the first place. Instead of being the primal forces of sentient beings' primal thoughts and feelings, they have now become some sort of Greek Pantheon rip-off. If they tried sticking to their original design for fluff, then perhaps there wouldn't be so much to hate about changing the army books any time GW felt like making a quick buck from me.

As for the core rules, me and a few mates have seen a trend starting from 2nd Ed, which greatly favoured shooty armies and characters, leaving certain units to be relegated to the bits box. 3rd Ed went to the other extreme, greatly favouring assault forces. Even a well prepared shooty list with support couldn't compete with an in-your-face assault list. 4th tried to bring about a happy medium but failed and $th (sorry, 5th) Ed favours Horde armies to the point where I seriously think GW is making it simply to make people buy more models. Yes I know I'm a cynic but I tried the whole "GW will sort things out" approach a few years back.

Yes, the hobby is getting expensive. So is everything else in life, sadly. I already have armies to use and loan to people but finding opponents is never the problem.

In addition to GW's catalogue of cock-ups, I have found a few other systems of games that I genuinely enjoy. I found Warmachine and Urban War at my local Indie gaming store and I really like the systems. So much so, that I have even put some thought into making mods based on those systems in order to use my 40k models again.

So in summary, they screwed up my favourite lists, screwed up their basic core games, priced new opponents out of the hobby, and the company seems to be, IMO a profiteering enterprise built solely around the idea of making a few bob by waving their latest sculpts of models I already own in my face.

With regards,
Dan.

Billpete002
22-06-2009, 12:20
GW charging too much for the models is driving me away however as an unemployed student i can't afford to start historical games either because to do that i'd need rulebooks and collect my first historical army at least with GW games i have everything i need to play.

If you are strapped for cash there are lots of free to download rules online either through yahoo groups or just google. Also, historical miniatures are MUCH cheaper than GW minis, especially now with the move to plastic.

Vitrix offers 60 French or 52 British miniatures for around 20 euros which is amazing!

Perry Miniatures, Warlord Games, and Wargames Factory also deserve honorable mentions.

Also if you want bulk armies (when you perhaps get a job/more cash) Old Glory has a membership program for $50 you get 40% off all miniatures on their site and their partner sites. You get (typically) 30 metal models for $18.

I like Flame of War as it is fast, fun, and there are players out there (and growing). Fields of Glory is alright, the rules are - alright - but they lack the real fun/fast factor, also finding players is hard (for me). I do recommend Warhammer Historical as the books they have produced like World War One "The Great War" are great and have tons of replayability, but with the current 'reorganization' of the company going on as it has been moved under the FW wing and books have been pushed back, me and fellow WH players are left in the cold waiting for a glimmer of the new editions etc.

All in all, if GW does move towards those greatsword prices for all elite units (and god forbid upping core units) I think they will have done a great disservice to veterans and new players alike. If I can buy 60 wonderfully detailed French guard from Vitrix at 20 euros a box while a box of 10 space marines is 35 euros there is something amiss.

Lastly, though it drops the models/painting/gluing section of wargaming you could try paper armies, while the "outcast" of wargaming, it is quite enjoyable and you can test out whole armies or tactics before buying anything, only money you'd use is printer ink ;)

Osbad
22-06-2009, 14:43
If you are strapped for cash there are lots of free to download rules online either through yahoo groups or just google.

QFT.

A good place to start for free rules is www.freewargamesrules.co.uk. Loads of stuff, historical, sci-fi, fantasy, you name it. If it's free to download, there's a link to it on FWGR!

I'd also add Valiant miniatures (www.valiantminiatures.com) as a great source of excellent 20mm plastic WWII models if that floats your boat (I just picked some up for £8 for a box of 4 sprues of multi-part models)

If you are interested in historicals at all, I recommend to check out Wargames Illustrated magazine. Cheaper than WD and with much better quality articles.

At the minute they are offering a free box of toy soldiers (worth between £15 and £25 or so depending on which type you want) with every new annual subscription of the magazine.