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wischhusen
29-12-2005, 22:56
hi , im making a wood elf army and my story line is about the glade being ravanged by choas so no magic , can it work ,or will i die horribly?

Flypaper
29-12-2005, 23:18
Yes and no.

On one hand, you've got a lot of advantages when it comes to avoiding line of sight and hogging cover.

On the other hand, t3 expensive troops with no armour die like flies to magic missiles!

The veredict? I'd say it's worth a try only if your playgroup's fairly light on magic (say no-one's got more than six levels of magic). And even then you'll need to watch out for those Lore of Life and Heavens no-line-of-sight spells...

Mad Makz
29-12-2005, 23:56
Really depends how much magic resistance you can put in the army, magic resistance will help you a bit (make those two dispel dice go a lot further).

Also, you will miss tree singing.

However, I think you could make an interesting would elf army without any Mages. You could consider taking two treemen with this force? They get the bound tree singing which means you might actually have the spell cast (especially if your other characters are tooled up to snipe enemy mages).

Drake Dun
30-12-2005, 04:00
In my last game I had an entire squad of 5 waywatchers get zapped by some jerk Heavens mage who was sitting pritty way in the back of the battlefield.

Drake

sulla
30-12-2005, 04:43
In my last game I had an entire squad of 5 waywatchers get zapped by some jerk Heavens mage who was sitting pritty way in the back of the battlefield.

Drake

Hehe, wait till you face some serious mages with life magic. That list was designed to devestate Elven lists...:evilgrin:

Flypaper
30-12-2005, 11:43
Actually, the list was revised to devastate Elven lists... :angel:

SuperBeast
30-12-2005, 11:57
My favourite revision of which is "this does not affect Dryads or Treemen", meaning that to the letter of the law, treekin still get maimed by Master of the Wood.. :D

The simple equation for basic magic requirements in a WE force is determined by...

((L/(T-T(I))^2)-(MR(TOT)+D)
Tactics

Where L is the Lore your opponent is using, T is the amount of terrain you're likely to see, T(I) is the amount of impassable terrain, MR(TOT) is the total amount of Magic resistance in the army, D is the number of dispel dice you have, and Tactics is your ability with the army.

Any score of Twelfty+ requires at least a dispel caddie. :D

Seriously, if you can stay out of sight and aren't worried by your opponent getting off "buff" spells on his troops, then you can get by without any magic in a WE force.
Personally, I always take 2 lvl 1 mages with 2 dispel scrolls and the staff of sorcery between them. I generally only attempt to dispel direct damage spells as well. With a bit of savvy you can get around anything else.

GranFarfar
30-12-2005, 13:00
My favourite revision of which is "this does not affect Dryads or Treemen", meaning that to the letter of the law, treekin still get maimed by Master of the Wood.. :D


This I did not quite get - have I missed something? Dosnīt master of woods work on the... ermh... trees in the WE list?

Kahadras
30-12-2005, 14:37
It may work but your top priority would be to hunt down your opponants wizards asap. Even then against armies such as Undead I think that you would be unable to win. With an army that relies on magic to win you will really have no answer to it. Interesting from a fluff point of view but not very practical IMO.

Kahadras

Da GoBBo
30-12-2005, 15:48
As said before, a balanced army has something to say in every phase of the game. Whether ye like it or not, magic is not to be ignored. I went magic heavy with my orcs on the woodies not to long ago. He only had a level 2 mage. I can tell you he was not pleased. Waaagh magic is able to pinpoint anywhere on the table so it will crush all your small units and loose characters on the spot. Other lores can do that as well. You need yer protection. VC is even worse cause they can have both a lot of (though less dangerous) magic and awesom fighters.

@flypaper: Since when is six magic levels goin light on magic? having four is avarage for most 2000 pt armies. No defense vs six magic levels is suicide for them woodies.

wischhusen
30-12-2005, 23:39
yes i was thinking have some waywatchers (instead of points spent on mages ) and have the waywatchers on mage hunting duty seeing as that get really close with thier speical rules, then if they do a death and glory atteampt on the enmies mages , then they will be playing on my lvl with no mages , and seeing as my army is non magicey i should have the upper hand :D

Flypaper
31-12-2005, 06:02
flypaper: Since when is six magic levels goin light on magic? having four is avarage for most 2000 pt armies. No defense vs six magic levels is suicide for them woodies.

...Because I didn't want someone to start going on about their VC or Tzeench list! Six levels is what I consider "heavy within normal parameters" magic, as opposed to "depends on" magic. :p

Da GoBBo
31-12-2005, 10:40
:) hehe, and along comes another wiseguy, understood.


...and have the waywatchers on mage hunting duty...

you know, that might actually work. It would be real neat if ye can pull this off. T won't be easy though, a think ye should definitly get this pinpointbowthingy.

bored1
31-12-2005, 13:57
I'll put it a bit more unequivocally...

unless you're incredibly lucky (or they unlucky), you will lose just about every game against an intelligent magic heavy opponent if you bring no magic defense.

wischhusen
02-01-2006, 21:51
perhaps , look at his gaming crowd , sees a bunch of retards , i think ill be ok

Trunks
03-01-2006, 03:25
As long as you have the maneuverability to get to wizards quickly, it's not a huge problem overall unless facing a overwhelming amount of magic (where one scroll caddie wouldn't be enough).

If you anticipate alot of magic in your local gaming circle, be prepared for losses until you get the hang of mage hunting.

You have to be very careful with your army design. You need things that will be useful for hunting mages that will also be useful when the enemy has few mages. Two squads of waywatchers, an alter kindred, a scout or waywatcher kindred noble, warhawks (maybe), glade riders, etc., shoudl make up a nice portion of your list.

Crazy Harborc
03-01-2006, 03:47
IMHO, how well you might do without using mages and or bound spells depends on what army your opponent is pushing at you.

WHFB 6th Ed. is a good set of rules. Most of the armies can play well without needing a magic phase for whatever. Try talking it over with regular opponents, give it a try.

Frankly
03-01-2006, 04:19
I'll put it a bit more unequivocally...

unless you're incredibly lucky (or they unlucky), you will lose just about every game against an intelligent magic heavy opponent if you bring no magic defense.

hmmm, I dont know about that, on the whole i think your right, but there are exceptions to the rule. I play a list with no magic in it, no scrolls either, but I made the armylist with plenty of units that can hunt down mages, making it very effective against magic heavylists ... I actually made it with High elves and skaven in mind when I built it.

But then again thats magic defense in a way isn't it.

Also I play against an ork player who goes for numbers over anything all ease, he will usually play with no magic defense. Magic just isn't effective against 150 to 200 models + supporting units.

If you want to go completely without magic then you'll have to look at other ways of shutting down and targeting mages. Eagles, fast cavalry, hawkriders are all reasonabily cheep units and can be used to smash into your opponants front ranks and target models in base to base contact(mages;) ).

Eagles, lone characters(on horse back or with the alter kindreads) and/or maybe waywatchers may be able to threaten or get to mages hiding between units.

My biggest advice would be to go for speed and mobillity and get into combat as soon as possible with flank charges, causing panic and the like, you don't want to hang arund in the open against a magic heavy armylist.

Personally I'm a fan of people with the guts to take no magic defence and rely on tactics ... its classy.

kingofthewoods
06-01-2006, 19:24
yes!It can i have just started awood elf army!My bro plays chaos at the momentso I've found it use ful.i've been moving trees in front of his chosen chaos knights.(he gat's really anyoud.)But i found that my waywatchers hav just destroyed his choas worriors.As long as you have scout's or waywatchers i find just sneaking in some wood's with my waywatchers and getting killing blow on him work's with my waywatchers.And somtimes i just add a Noble with a bow of loren in that normally does the trick.OH!and if you give him the waywatchers kindred.Oh and i have learnt from experience that taking advantige of being skirmishers just run round your enemies.(oh and word to the wise don't get charged,the amount of times my waywatchers have been totally wiped out in 1 turn.

Our theres the hourd trick take loads of glade guard with banna's and musicians.

wischhusen
06-01-2006, 19:31
thanks for all your replys

just a question to people who play the wood elves , do you think the new magic list sort of sucks (one reason im not using it)

Thranduil
12-01-2006, 23:31
Based on the new wood elf list and how the magic's been tweaked (no more +1 for lore of life?) I don't believe that this list is meant to be magic heavy. The standard lore in the book is mostly for support spells, like moving and protecting your troops or treesinging woods into an opponent's line of site. Lore of Athel Loren doesn't exactly suck, it's just not really for blasting the crap out of your opponent with. Even if you did take a spellweaver, you'd probably not use her with Lore of Athel Loren or Lore of Beasts. I'm not saying that Lore of Life isn't immensely useful and powerful if played right, but I'd use that Lord choice for a Highborn rather than a Weaver.

We Asrai have several other tools at our disposal as highlighted above: fast moving, sneaky troops and flyers that can specialize in hunting down those damn mages. I'm not sure the new wood elves are meant to fight fire with fire. We've also got certain magic items geared toward pinpointing mages in units; namely the Hunter's Talon and the Pageant of Shrikes spite.

If you're worried about magic, I'd use a combination of mage-hunting units (waywatchers, flyers, cavalry) along with a mage sniping character (scout noble with the above 2 magic items) a scroll caddy, and a branchwraith with a cluster of radiants. With all this, you don't usually need too many dice - this set up totals all of 5 DD and 2 DS - in the magic phase after the first turn. Dead mages killed by turn 2 or 3 by flyers and sniping = less nasty spells burning up fragile units. What I'm saying is that with wood elves, unless you're facing worst case scenario 14 power dice tzeentch armies or whatever, you don't need to go magic heavy just for defense.

Yak
13-01-2006, 14:20
No! The new magic is the way magic should be! Not so many direct damage spells, but supporting your troops, and just sliding things in your advantage.

We've all fought 17 power dice tzeench armies, high elf seer councils (with the book of hoeth), 2nd gen slaan with 3 skink priests and so on. Magic heavy armies aren't fun to play against. Hopefully all the magic in 7th ed will be based on a similar system to the lore of athel loren.

Having said that, I'd always take lore of life with a spellweaver.

If you do go magic light, be sure to stock up on eagels, waywatchers, warhawks, and, possibly most importantly, alter noble(s).

You could always consider a BSB with the royal standard of ariel.

Follow my sig link for a wood elf dedicated site.

bloodwraith
15-01-2006, 12:08
Yeah i'm inclined to agree with thranduil. Give a noble the hunters talon and give him the scout kindred. Either that or you focus fire on mage units. Something like the archer lord with bow of loren and arcane bodkins, then when he's done his damage, hit the unit with the HOD or massed bowfire. If the mage gets shot to pieces with his unit he's no longer a problem. I designed a list with no magic either. It will probably get slaughtered, but i'm in it for models and fun and playing what i want.

penek
15-01-2006, 17:26
hm.. 2gen slann may take 2 prists... he count as 2 choises ..
as to author.. u may use wardancers and wild riders (= they have MR1 this may help u a little...

athamas
15-01-2006, 19:10
one thing to rememeber is because of some of the potancy of magic, most players at 1500 will take 2 mages in a general list, as it gives you the extra punch/nulify abilities..

1 mage just does not quite cut it!

jigplums
16-01-2006, 12:43
we magic isn't really great, but they have lots of other things to make up for it as had already been mentioned.

Using units with magic resistance and things like branch wraith would certainly help out though

chumchu
16-01-2006, 18:13
I would go with many dispel scrolls as this gives a breathing room to take out your opponents mages. If you can use them for turn 1 or 2 you have some mage hunting time.

Gobbas
16-01-2006, 19:41
My favourite revision of which is "this does not affect Dryads or Treemen", meaning that to the letter of the law, treekin still get maimed by Master of the Wood.. :D

....


It has been changes to does not affect forestspirits as you can see here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/magic/assets/revised-lores.pdf

Fortdeadlykick
16-01-2006, 20:27
Fo shure.

The wood elf magic isn't worth maxing out on anyway, a scroll caddy or branchwraith can provide limited yet functional magic defense, and great eagles/warhawks/fast cav are all good for the anti-magic agenda.

Alternatively, you could build a very mobile list to be hitting the front and flanks of units on turn 2-3. very little magic works on units inside combat.