PDA

View Full Version : Reaper Bolt Thrower AP



Cousteau
11-06-2009, 01:32
The Reaper's volley has "Strength 4, with armour saves suffering a -2 penalty." Does this mean that the effective armor piercing is -2, or -3 when combined with the S4?

sulla
11-06-2009, 01:50
Exactly what it tells you in the unit description; -2.

nosferatu1001
11-06-2009, 09:30
It tells you exactly what the penalty is, same as a salamander has -3 to armour saves.

BlankScreen
11-06-2009, 11:57
this may be off topic but, when used against knights. what is more effective, multi-shoot or single?

Falkman
11-06-2009, 12:04
I would say it depends on which knights you are shooting at, and whether or not you can hit their flank or not.

Draconian77
11-06-2009, 12:07
As a general rule of thumb, single shots to the flanks and against T4 1+ save Knights, multi shot any other type of Knight.

Although if you are using them in a Dark Elf army I find shooting at enemy war machines, fast cavalry and monsters to be of greater use. Let the Black Guard, Cold Ones, Assassins or "generic monsters" deal with enemy Knights.

Nuada
11-06-2009, 12:40
What about chariots? single or multiple?

Lets say orc chariot, T5, 4wnds, 4+armour save

Grimbrow
11-06-2009, 12:51
Hitting on 3s (i.e. Short range) the multiple does better in your example, scoring 1.1111 wounds, compared to the single shot's average of 0.8889. That's taking armour saves and D3 wounds into account.

Ask me another - how fun!

Count Zero
11-06-2009, 12:53
i'd probably go for multiple. a single bolt cant kill it in 1 go anyway. hits on a 3/4 right wounds on a 3 then d3.
multiple, 6 shots hitting on 3/4 wounding on a 5's with 6+ AS.

DarkTerror
11-06-2009, 17:49
In general you're better off shooting multiple shots at everything you can't go through multiple ranks with. And even then, you still want multiple shots against things like light cav.

Makes the single shot option seem crappy doesn't it? Well, they are worse options 95% of the time. Personally, I'd much rather not even have the option and drop the cost of the Bolt Thrower 5 points.


P.S. You're better off shooting multiple shots at Chaos Knights in the front, contrary to what was posted earlier.

*edit* Just for more information - Even in one of the BEST conditions you can have - your opponent just lined up 6 Chaos Knights in a row with their flank exposed, a BT is only going to kill .53 more knights on average than multiple shots.

To get value out of going through multiple ranks your target has to have at LEAST a 1+ armor save.

If I were you, I'd forget that my BT has a single shot option unless my opponent gives me a flank shot of Chaos Knights.

TheDarkDaff
11-06-2009, 18:12
It really depends on what you are shooting at. Chaos Knights (T4 1+AS) then you go multiple shots (Average cause 1.11 wounds as stated above). Even on a flank shot you should go Multi Shot (on averages) unless you have a flank shot at just a character as they take the hit. It actually skews further in favour of Multiple shots shooting at the Orc Chariot (T5 4+AS).

The only real reason to use a single bolt is to get through T6+ or If the Target is T5 and a 3+ AS or better

DarkTerror
11-06-2009, 19:43
It really depends on what you are shooting at. Chaos Knights (T4 1+AS) then you go multiple shots (Average cause 1.11 wounds as stated above). Even on a flank shot you should go Multi Shot (on averages) unless you have a flank shot at just a character as they take the hit.


See above, this math is not correct.

TheDarkDaff
11-06-2009, 20:04
See above, this math is not correct.

I managed to confuse myself (that was the math from the Orc chariot i hope)

It is a bit tricky but the multi-shot will average 0.67 wounds per volley of six. What make it tricky is that the single shot averages 0.56 wounds on average (you loose the multiplier) but if you do wound then the next wound happens 67% of the time, with the third wound at 50% then the forth at 33% then fifth at 17%.

If you get the first wound with the single shot odds are you'll get the second as well. But you are statistically more likely to get a casualty by firing multiple shots (assuming a 3+ to hit)

DarkTerror
11-06-2009, 20:12
I managed to confuse myself (that was the math from the Orc chariot i hope)

It is a bit tricky but the multi-shot will average 0.67 wounds per volley of six. What make it tricky is that the single shot averages 0.56 wounds on average (you loose the multiplier) but if you do wound then the next wound happens 67% of the time, with the third wound at 50% then the forth at 33% then fifth at 17%.

If you get the first wound with the single shot odds are you'll get the second as well. But you are statistically more likely to get a casualty by firing multiple shots (assuming a 3+ to hit)

A single casualty? Yes, it's .666 to .555. However, 99% of the time you simply want max casualties.

Multi-Shots at Chaos Knights on flank at 3+ to hit = .667 wounds
Single Shot at same target = 1.20 wounds

fubukii
11-06-2009, 20:15
6 shots at Long range 3 hits, 1.5wounds .5 wounds after 3+ armor save of chaos knights.
Single shot long range .5 hits, .41 wounds. The main issue is the roll to hit here.

Short range
6 shots, 4 hits. 2 wounds, .66 wounds after armor.
single shot .66 hits .54 wounds (problem again is hitting)

us the single bolt always against large targets and against, flanks of knights
Single sot vs knightly flank is amazing vs t3 knights, and good vs t4 it has a better chance to do really well.

TheDarkDaff
11-06-2009, 20:31
A single casualty? Yes, it's .666 to .555. However, 99% of the time you simply want max casualties.

Multi-Shots at Chaos Knights on flank at 3+ to hit = .667 wounds
Single Shot at same target = 1.20 wounds

But this is the problem. The Multiple shots is more likely to get the first wound. If the single shot wounds then yes it is more destructive but it is more lkely to do nothing at all.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-06-2009, 21:20
If the single shot wounds then yes it is more destructive but it is more lkely to do nothing at all.Generally speaking, you should go for average kills over chance of inflicting any kills. The average works better in the long run. That being said... You're just plain wrong. Multiple shots are more likely to not get any kills, rather than less (and this is true whether you're firing at the flank or the front, as the chance of the first kill is not affected).

At short range, the chance to fail with all six shots against chaos knights is:
(1-((2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)))^6
(8/9)^6
=~49.33%

Whereas, the chance to fail to kill anything with a single shot against chaos knights at short range is simply:
1-((2/3)*(5/6))
4/9
=44.44...%

These sorts of outcomes are very common when you compare a single powerful attack to multiple less powerful attacks; if they're at all comparable (in average-kill terms), the single attack is more likely to do something while the many attacks have a chance of getting lucky and doing great harm.

(Note that changing the range or other to-hit modifiers affect both outcomes equally and so really isn't a distinguishing factor.)

sulla
13-06-2009, 22:00
this may be off topic but, when used against knights. what is more effective, multi-shoot or single?

Plenty of maths above, but in general, it's better not to shoot at knights at all. Shoot at large targets, fast cav or other high value, low armour targets. Use your disruption units to divert knights and hit them in the flanks with your hard hitters.

Yrrdead
15-06-2009, 02:03
Here is a table I found helpful from Avain's page.

http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/tactics/dummies.php#wm_sb