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dwarfhold13
12-06-2009, 03:07
which one and how many of either would you take..
also.. there are two different banners i think are work it.. which one would you put?
immune to fear and terror
or
counts as double unit strength?

also in the list there is a BSB if that makes a huge difference to some
Jon

TonyFlow
12-06-2009, 05:16
This one has been discussed quite a few times. I suggest you do a search for it.

Some people like Hammerers for the stubborn LD9 and also killyness with str6. They wont run anywhere, and with a lord in the unit they are immune to fear and terror as well. But they die pretty easily.

Ironbreakers wont die so easily. With a 2+ save in close combat it takes quite alot. I normally use Ironbreakers but that is mostly because i have liked this unit since 4th ed. and i dont have any hammerers and rarely bring a lord.

Hope this helps a little.

Shiodome
12-06-2009, 10:40
iron breakers, because they're better looking models.

dsw1
12-06-2009, 10:45
iron breakers, because they're better looking models.

:D Agreed.

moose
12-06-2009, 11:16
Hammerers, as dwarves have enough sit back and relax units, they need something hard hitting and the answer is hammerers.


Moose.

Max_Killfactor
12-06-2009, 12:42
If you're taking a Dwarf Lord, then hammerers. If not, then I think Ironbreakers are better (but be sure to give them the immune to fear/terror runic standard).

I like to include both in my non tourney 2250 list though. I put a Lord on shieldbearers in the Hammerers, and a BsB with a 1+ armor save (no magic banner though) with my Ironbreaker. Tough 2 units to break and it makes it a hard army to get points from.

My tourney list usually includes an anvil and no hammerers.

Stinkfoot
13-06-2009, 02:47
The two units really do different things. Hammerers are around to suck up losing combats and reliably stand fast in tough situations. Ironbreakers are around to win combats. Hammerers work well holding a flank, and don't need to be in full units (12-18 works well, I take 15 fairly frequently - always with shields). If you're looking for a unit to stand in the middle of your line, you probably won't need stubborn so Ironbreakers are a better buy. Ironbreakers will win combat against most anything that engages them from the front.

Nicha11
13-06-2009, 02:53
Hammerers, as dwarves have enough sit back and relax units, they need something hard hitting and the answer is hammerers.


Moose.

I disagree, warriors with great weapons perform the same role for cheap.

Ironbreakers are excellent warmachine guards, and they can soak up ridiculous amounts of damage.

lcfr
13-06-2009, 03:00
I think that Hammerers always win out over Ironbreakers. For the same pts cost you have a stubborn unit that, w/a lord, is immune to fear and terror. Additionally, you can always elect at the beginning of a new combat to fight w/HW and shields instead of GWs, and you'll fare nearly as well as Ironbreakers. Ironbreakers are pretty cool and the best at not dying, but Hammerers can do things IBs can't, and can do what IBs do nearly as well.

IBs never make it onto my list, and I think I own more of them than I do Hammerers; the problem is that Hammerers seem an obvious choice to me, and I can't justify IBs over the warmachines I feel are necessary to take. I run a unit of 19 Hammerers and give them the RCourage in lists where I don't have a lord, but I imagine most people play smaller units.

lcfr
13-06-2009, 03:11
I like to include both in my non tourney 2250 list though. I put a Lord on shieldbearers in the Hammerers, and a BsB with a 1+ armor save (no magic banner though) with my Ironbreaker. Tough 2 units to break and it makes it a hard army to get points from.

Wow, how many core infantry blocks are you fielding alongside these, and what do you do with your remaining two special choices? Just out of curiosity; I don't play tournaments, but in my 2k non-anvil list I field hammerers alongside a block of warriors and longbeards. I round out my other 3 special options w/miners, BTs, and a cannon.

Dead Man Walking
13-06-2009, 04:32
Some people like Hammerers for the stubborn LD9 and also killyness with str6. They wont run anywhere, and with a lord in the unit they are immune to fear and terror as well. But they die pretty easily.



Who the hell puts a lord in the unit to get immune to fear and terror when theres a 25 point banner that makes them immune to fear and terror and can't be killed off until the last hammerer dies? Really, this one boggles my mind! :wtf: :skull:

ALso, if your using the great weapons on hammerers then you don't understand the concept that dwarves win through combat res and denying wounds. You -always- -always- -always- use hand weapon shield combo in conjunction with ws 5 and toughness 4 to reduce injuries with very few exceptions, like when you flank attack a stegadon. Even against other dwarves you should not use the great weapon.

Troah
13-06-2009, 04:43
I myself am not a dwarf player but my friend is and he uses both hammerers and ironbreakers. He normally uses his hammerers to charge something and uses the great weapons for a nice painful blow, and most of the time he kills enough models that I do not get that many attack backs. The next turn he switches to hand weapons and shields and keeps it like that.

ICLRK625
13-06-2009, 05:51
I myself am not a dwarf player but my friend is and he uses both hammerers and ironbreakers. He normally uses his hammerers to charge something and uses the great weapons for a nice painful blow, and most of the time he kills enough models that I do not get that many attack backs. The next turn he switches to hand weapons and shields and keeps it like that.

I'm curious how he managed to charge anything with Dwafs, unless the person he's playing against is a poor general. Even if it's a flank charge, you can see that coming from miles away, they have a 6" charge range. The only exception to this is if somebody throws you off and uses the Anvil of Doom for Oath and Honor rather then Wrath and Ruin, in which case they have a 12" charge range (which might be able to throw someone off).

Troah
13-06-2009, 06:16
I'm curious how he managed to charge anything with Dwafs, unless the person he's playing against is a poor general. Even if it's a flank charge, you can see that coming from miles away, they have a 6" charge range. The only exception to this is if somebody throws you off and uses the Anvil of Doom for Oath and Honor rather then Wrath and Ruin, in which case they have a 12" charge range (which might be able to throw someone off).


If I knew anything about Dwarves and their Doom stuff I would understand what you just said. ^_^

ICLRK625
13-06-2009, 06:28
If I knew anything about Dwarves and their Doom stuff I would understand what you just said. ^_^

The Anvil of Doom can be used to make an additional move (including charges) in the movement phase. That's the only feasable way I can ever see Dwarfs making charges.

Dead Man Walking
13-06-2009, 06:34
I myself am not a dwarf player but my friend is and he uses both hammerers and ironbreakers. He normally uses his hammerers to charge something and uses the great weapons for a nice painful blow, and most of the time he kills enough models that I do not get that many attack backs. The next turn he switches to hand weapons and shields and keeps it like that.

How does he manage to switch back to hand weapons and shields if he started with great weapons? You can't change from one weapon type mid fight just because the advantages of great weapons is not so great when your in turn 2. Either your friend cheats or is ignorant of the rules.

Pg 54: at the start of the first turn of combat a unit chooses which of thier weapons to use, and the weapon must be used for the entire combat.

So if you want the bonus of hand weapon and shield in turn 2 you had better use it in turn 1.

You can charge on a regular basis without using the anvil, its called a counter charge, you survive the charge of your opponent and then counter charge in its flank with another unit of dwarves, and I still suggest 90% of the time just using hand weapons, as hammerers are ws 5 str 4 its none too shabby.

TonyFlow
13-06-2009, 10:19
Who the hell puts a lord in the unit to get immune to fear and terror when theres a 25 point banner that makes them immune to fear and terror and can't be killed off until the last hammerer dies? Really, this one boggles my mind! :wtf: :skull:

Well if you are going to take a lord anyways, you might as well put him withe the hammerers as you wouldnt need to pay the 30 (not 25) points for the banner rune. Its a nice bonus, but you should take neither only for this reason.

I, like others, field Ironbreakers because the models are much nicer (IMHO of course). If i had a unit of the old Hammerer models i would probably field them more often.

Dead Man Walking
13-06-2009, 13:42
I have taken dwarven warrior models, clipped the axe head off the great weapons and glued on hammer heads from the dwarf warrior sprues, you will need to ask your friends for some to get upwards of 40 (I field 2 units of 20 hammerers instead of 1 unit of hammerers with a lord, same points - more bang.), you can also use hammer heads from the empire heavy calvary box set. Add some gold trim to differenciate from regular warriors and longbeards and point them out to your opponent at the beginning of your game and your golden.

The only advantage a dwarf lord gives a hammerer unit is 1 extra leadership and a nigh unkillable (but not unkillable) point sink in the middle of it. I prefer two units of 20 hammerers, one with a hero in it with the rune of challenge. That unit will have immune to fear and terror, they take 1 leadership test on 1d6 (which is an autopass on stubborn 9.) and I add magic resist 1. Good times.

Onidan
13-06-2009, 15:00
I myself am not a dwarf player but my friend is and he uses both hammerers and ironbreakers. He normally uses his hammerers to charge something and uses the great weapons for a nice painful blow, and most of the time he kills enough models that I do not get that many attack backs. The next turn he switches to hand weapons and shields and keeps it like that.

If that would be possible Hammerers would be the clear winners, but alas, it is not. You have to fight the whole combat with the weapons you started with.

Anyway, I prefer Hammerers for two reasons:
1.) I converted my own and like how they look while I donīt have any Ironbreakers yet.
2.) I prefer the versatility and stubborn staying power they provide. I mostly equip them with Shields and use them as bodyguards, but I use the GWs occasionaly as well.

ICLRK625
13-06-2009, 15:28
He normally uses his hammerers to charge something and uses the great weapons for a nice painful blow, and most of the time he kills enough models that I do not get that many attack backs. The next turn he switches to hand weapons and shields and keeps it like that.

I missed that entirelely, but no wonder you lose so much, it seems like your group ignores 75% of the rules.

Dead Man Walking
13-06-2009, 20:24
I dont even see the debate in hammerers vrs ironbreakers.

For the same points you can have;

A dwarf with an additional +1 to armor save (2+)
OR
A Dwarf that is stubborn 9 (stubborn 10 and immune to fear and terror with lord) AND armor save 3+.


Hmm, hard decision.

Shiodome
14-06-2009, 22:15
it is a hard decision when one of the units (hammerers) has crap models.

Dead Man Walking
15-06-2009, 00:52
You can always convert using warriors with great axes and clipping off the axe heads and glueing on hammer heads.

Brother J
15-06-2009, 23:34
. Even if it's a flank charge, you can see that coming from miles away, they have a 6" charge range. off).

I almost cried.

I'd opt for Ironbreakers, not only for models, and toughness...but mainly because the name sounds a lot more cool, and that's all that matters to me!

dwarfhold13
16-06-2009, 00:50
i'm gonna have to deal with my iron breakers for now.. but i think i'm going to replace them with hammerers as soon as i can.. thanks for everyones input!
Jon

corum_jhaelen_irsei
16-06-2009, 05:35
My Army is focused around the fact that they are a mining army so IBs are the ones i choose and the fact they just look far better.

I can see the advantage of having hammerers, but i don't feel its suit my army or the way it plays out so they are usually left out for me.

xpo50
07-07-2009, 03:58
An interesting combination that i used once before was taking alord with master rune of kingship, and putting him with ironbreakers.
Stubborn ironbreakers immune to fear and terror.
then add the rune of battle (+1 combat resolution), and stoicism (double unit strength), and you have an amazing unit to put int he dead centre of your army, it can beat anything. i use it almost never though since enemoes are often able to simply avoid it, and I always take hammerers anyways who benefit from the lord for fewer points.

Hammerers are great too for taking on tough units since they have strength 6 (with GW), and are stubborn so even is they take heavy casualties they stand ground

I cant see my army without both of them, though, I think they are both essential

xpo50
07-07-2009, 03:59
it is a hard decision when one of the units (hammerers) has crap models.

Hammeres have great models, i love them, and ironbreaker models are equally as cool

Troah
07-07-2009, 04:01
Hammerbreakers! or Ironers!

n00bLord
07-07-2009, 05:57
I find Iron Breakers more of a problem than hammers since I play low toughness no armor basically across my troops as Skaven. Buuuut I would take Hammerers over IBs against the wider variety of enemies. Plus their immunity to psycho/terror/stubborn. Pretty smexy.

WLBjork
07-07-2009, 08:09
An interesting combination that i used once before was taking alord with master rune of kingship, and putting him with ironbreakers.
Stubborn ironbreakers immune to fear and terror.

100 points on Runes though - almost his full complement.

Put the Lord in the Hammerers though, with Shieldbearers, Great Weapon, MR of Kragg, 2* Rune of Fury, Rune of Stone and MR of Spite and have a Lord that isn't going anywhere fast and can cause a lot of pain. 6 S6 attacks at WS7 is very hard to ignore, and if he gets, hit, well there's a 1+ AS and a 4+WS to absorb the damage, meanwhile the unit is Stubborn on Ld9 (unlikely to need it mind you) and Immune to Fear and Terror.


Yeah, my first choie is Hammerers, second is Ironbreakers.

AngryAngel
07-07-2009, 09:43
Ironbreakers just feel so much cooler fluff wise and to me look worlds cooler. Hell they are the thin red line that keeps the dwarf holds from being overwhelmed from below, just something awesome about that.

xpo50
07-07-2009, 19:00
100 points on Runes though - almost his full complement.

Put the Lord in the Hammerers though, with Shieldbearers, Great Weapon, MR of Kragg, 2* Rune of Fury, Rune of Stone and MR of Spite and have a Lord that isn't going anywhere fast and can cause a lot of pain. 6 S6 attacks at WS7 is very hard to ignore, and if he gets, hit, well there's a 1+ AS and a 4+WS to absorb the damage, meanwhile the unit is Stubborn on Ld9 (unlikely to need it mind you) and Immune to Fear and Terror.


Yeah, my first choie is Hammerers, second is Ironbreakers.
As i said I rarely if ever use this because it costs so many points that are better used elsewhere. The only time i use this is in HUGE games where I can throw points wherever i feel like.

I almost always put my lord with hammerers

Dag
07-07-2009, 19:31
you cant switch weapon equipment from turn to turn, so unless your hammerers break the unit on the charge, which is every gw units dream, your hooped with only t4 5+armour, unless your fighting men/elves. everything else is str4+ =P

Aranel
07-07-2009, 22:53
Just take both! I generally take 17 Hammerers with Lord on shield and a BSB with ASF, +Str, +1A. The Ironbreakers (19 of them) sit right next to them in the battle line with a runesmith and a runic banner with ItFaT and take a leadership on one dice rune. I also have a big block of warriors, some thunderers, crossbowmen, cannon, grudgethrower, flame cannon and organ gun. The hammerers can hold until the last one is dead and with the lord and bsb can even win some combats. With the army standard in such close proximity, the IB's are extremely tough to break due to their natural resilience. The warriors can hold their own for a while and anything threatening the flanks can be dealt with by the sheer amount of shooting. Thats the theory anyway!