PDA

View Full Version : Need advice about 3.5 chaos codex



Skraal2099
13-06-2009, 01:57
I want to use the 3.5 chaos codex in friendly games, are there any lists that I should stay away from to prevent people getting angry at me?


P.S. I play Alpha Legion.

Mannimarco
13-06-2009, 01:59
yay 3.5! i gotta ask, why?

ok alph legion can infiltrate pretty much every infantryman they have, nobody likes the all infiltrating csm list, id avoid this

Skraal2099
13-06-2009, 02:10
I like the 3.5 codex mostly because of the gifts and mutations. I think it encourages conversions and I like conversions that actually do something.

TheDarkDuke
13-06-2009, 02:16
What was in 3.5 can be made in the new codex, without the outrageous benefits. The 3.5 codex was simply not a codex with "friendly game" in mind. So creativity isn't what encourages conversions but the 3.5 dex does...? Perhaps a look through some of the amazing project logs here on warseer to see what people have done, rather then the excuse to need 3.5 for conversions that "do" something.

Skraal2099
13-06-2009, 02:19
I didn't mean that creativity doesn't inspire conversions, but I just really like the concept of having a lord and giving him mutations and making him into a prince.

Also, could you please tell me about some good chaos project logs besides "a canticle of pleasure and pain"?

Vaktathi
13-06-2009, 02:23
I want to use the 3.5 chaos codex in friendly games, are there any lists that I should stay away from to prevent people getting angry at me?


P.S. I play Alpha Legion.

The AL list should be fine, I don't really recall any problems with it. As long as you don't bring in the old IW list and bring 4 ordnance weapons with 9 Oblits and thirtysomething CSM's and a tricked out DP I don't think most people will see much power difference.

Skraal2099
13-06-2009, 02:30
Ok. I think I should have made this a poll, so that I could get more opinions.

Hellebore
13-06-2009, 02:32
Which is pretty funny considering the sheer number of ordnance weapons a guard army can take now. How exactly is a space marine army broken with 4 ordnance weapons?

Hellebore

Mannimarco
13-06-2009, 02:36
its not, theres not a massive difference between bs3 (guard) and bs 4 (marine) when you start throwing pie plates around

dunno why but some people see it as inherently cheesy when iron warriors can take 4 ordinance but its fluffy when the guard can manage 9

squeekenator
13-06-2009, 02:38
It's not just 4 ordnance weapons that's overpowered, it's 4 ordnance weapons that aren't in squadrons and, more importantly, are supported by 9 Obliterators. Nine IG artillery vehicles are certainly nasty, but they're easy to kill and have an unfortunate habit of overkilling a single squad rather than spreading the hurt. Seven Heavy Support choices have neither of those disadvantages and are still plenty killy, plus they were supported by las/plas squads.

TheDarkDuke
13-06-2009, 02:46
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183233
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179904
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149051
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118975
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110681

There is just a small selection of great logs here on warseer that are CSM. This isn't including any SM, Traitor Guard, Daemon on logs with some Chaos works in them. Whether small or large logs there is a ton of inspiration from the painting to the major conversions to the small simply conversion you never thought of.

Playa
13-06-2009, 03:29
Hey,


I should have made this a poll, so that I could get more opinions

Polls are lame because you can't filter the inevitable troll votes.
The only problem is that no one is answering your question -
There were only two "loophole" lists iunder 3.5:

* Blitter spam
* Siren Prince

People will complain about anything, but those two were tourney complaints.
Alpha Legion was never a problem, and was actually my favorite list.
Good luck, and have fun!


Playa

silashand
13-06-2009, 05:08
As Playa noted, Obliterators and Siren prince were the main problems in the old book. An all infiltrating AL list was annoying at times, but could be countered if you knew it was coming, and even when not it still limited what you could take so it wasn't too bad. There are worse lists now with the new book.

Cheers, Gary

EVIL INC
13-06-2009, 05:11
A lot of these tyrolling threads have been showing up recently.
Pretty much all the possible lists can gain you enemies as it was possible to abuse the codex to unreasonable degrees with any of the possible ones.
That being said, you might as well just go whole hog and play with whatever you like. Try to stay away from the legions in it though as they were rather bland. Your best bet is to play plain chaos or "black legion" as that allows for the largest variety without being forced to fit into a cookie cutter or totally rely on a one trick pony.

ehlijen
13-06-2009, 05:13
Why can't you give a 4th ed Chaos lord mutations? I don't see any rules prohibiting you from modeling him suitably bizzare.

There are a fair few other problems with the 3.5 codex that won't fit into the current enivronemt. It's not necessarily that they were problems back then, but they would be now:
-Power fists and plasma have been majorly recosted. By playing the older and taking these you're basically giving yourself a huge advantage over newer books.
-Las/Plas: the old book did not have the stopper on min-maxing heavy weapons outside of HS slots that the current books have.
-Super princes. You could make your princes so powerful AND resilient that outside of hidden powerfists and plasma spam they were nearly impossible to take out and stop them slaughtering your lines. The new consolidation rules help, but the hikes on plasma and powerfists mean these guys would still rule the battlefield far better than they should.
-Alpha legion was actually a problem due to mass infiltrate. As the deployment phase now works differently the major benefit from back then has been removed (being able to force the opponent to deploy everything first), but all all outflanking marine army is still fairly powerful.

Mannimarco
13-06-2009, 13:11
remind me, doesnt the space marine character shrike allow infiltrating units?

is his ability considered broken?

EldarBishop
13-06-2009, 13:15
IIRC, Shrike grants Fleet and only the unit that Shrike joins can infiltrate.

-----------------------

Edit: Back OT


Why can't you give a 4th ed Chaos lord mutations? I don't see any rules prohibiting you from modeling him suitably bizzare.


Indeed.

I'm still using my converted Chaos Lord under the current rules (Inquisitor Eisenhorn [I think] conversion with a [Lords] Steed of Slaanesh instead of feet). It's a little on the "larger size" since it was a Prince with D.Stature under 3.5 rules. However, I can still be "mounted" on a "Steed of Slaanesh"... so, it's really only a "little" big. Sure, I no longer have Combat Drugs, D.Stature, D.Strength, etc... but, most of the 3.5 mutation were pretty broken anyways.

Urath
13-06-2009, 13:18
The AL list should be fine, I don't really recall any problems with it. As long as you don't bring in the old IW list and bring 4 ordnance weapons with 9 Oblits and thirtysomething CSM's and a tricked out DP I don't think most people will see much power difference.

You couldn't take four ordnance weapons AND twelve Obliterators. With four heavy support slots you could take twelve Oblits as the limit was removed. Well, apart from one heavy support slot, it's barely any different in the new codex. It's a shame that people abused such "flares" of character.

You can take three ordnance weapons if you like or nine obliterators and you'll still have three fast attack choices.

Badger[Fr]
13-06-2009, 13:58
4 Ordnance weapons aren't that bad, honestly. On the other hand, 12 Obliterators were just sick (remember when these guys had S5, T5, and a Powerfist?).



-Super princes. You could make your princes so powerful AND resilient that outside of hidden powerfists and plasma spam they were nearly impossible to take out and stop them slaughtering your lines. The new consolidation rules help, but the hikes on plasma and powerfists mean these guys would still rule the battlefield far better than they should.
Not to mention broken psychic powers such as Doom Siren, which made them even more resilient...


-Power fists and plasma have been majorly recosted. By playing the older and taking these you're basically giving yourself a huge advantage over newer books.
This. Dirt cheap Power Fists, Plasma Guns, and Lascanons are a noticeable advantage over the 5th Edition Codex,

Urath
13-06-2009, 14:44
Don't Obliterators still have power fists!? D: *goes to check Codex*

Grand Master Raziel
13-06-2009, 14:54
I want to use the 3.5 chaos codex in friendly games, are there any lists that I should stay away from to prevent people getting angry at me?

All of them. If you don't want people getting angry at you, don't use the 3.5 dex at all. Most of us in the gaming community are glad that thing has gone by the wayside. We don't want anyone trying to keep it on life support.


P.S. I play Alpha Legion.

I vehemently disagree with the idea that the Alpha Legion were not a problem list. Perhaps they weren't when 3.5 was first released, because in 3rd edition, scarcely any missions allowed Infiltrate. Once 4th edition debuted, however, that +1pt-per-model Infiltrate became wildly overpowered. It'd be ever worse in this edition, as Infiltrate=Outflank.

As far as jacking up a Lord into a Daemon Prince goes, there's a Daemon Prince entry. Just use that. The Daemonic Gifts got chopped because that was one of the most broken things about 3.5, and that's saying something.

One advantage of using the current Codex: CSMs is that there's really only one build that'll tick people off: Siren Princes+Plague Marines+Obliterators. Most other builds are hard as nails, but in a balanced way. If you want a thematically Alpha Legion list, just take some units of Chosen and either Infiltrate or Outflank with them. Just because the Legion has a tendency to favor sneakiness and skullduggery doesn't mean that every single member of your army should get to Infiltrate. Really, the Alpha Legion background would be better portrayed by having Alpha Legion provocateurs in a Lost and the Damned style dex, not by mass-infiltrating CSM armies.

Skraal2099
13-06-2009, 15:01
Thanks for your opinions everybody. What are your opinions on house-ruling cultists into the 4th edition codex?

I'm not a powergamer, I don't know much about the old editions and so I probably can't tell if something is broken or not. I just saw lots of cool looking options and I wanted to use them.

DrDoom
13-06-2009, 15:08
Depends on your stats and point costs for those cultists. If ouy're talking about the ones from the 3.5 codex, then can't they all infiltrate? I don't have the codex nearby. Frankly, I'd stay away from it. The current codex is fine, I'd stick with that.

Mannimarco
13-06-2009, 15:13
if cultists really are your thing you could go for siege of vraks part 1 (non aligned traitor guard) with marines as your elites

qwertywraith
13-06-2009, 17:45
Thanks for your opinions everybody. What are your opinions on house-ruling cultists into the 4th edition codex?

I'm not a powergamer, I don't know much about the old editions and so I probably can't tell if something is broken or not. I just saw lots of cool looking options and I wanted to use them.

I think house-ruled cultist/traitors would be a great thing to add to spice up some games. The cultists from 3.5 are probably over the top now as they are so cheap and come with 2 veteran skills.

Consider using the traitors entry from the Lost and the Damned. They were never considered broken, and are priced reasonably high for a unit with such a low LD, BS 2 and squishy stats. They also come with infiltrate, but are otherwise basically overpriced guardsmen who can take some other weapons.

Alternatively, the Siege of Vraks (as noted) has rules for renegade militias, but in a pinch some units from the new guard book will do (just don't abuse people by taking valkeries and stuff, stick to infantry and not heavy weapon teams). The Siege list allows CSM as elite choices, which fits with Alpha Legion using alternate resources to do their dirty work.

Mannimarco
13-06-2009, 18:00
2nd book allows khornate stuff and 3rd (when its released) will alow nurgle type armies, as a alpha legion player your best bet is the 1st book although its not in line with the new guard codex

silashand
13-06-2009, 18:32
Most of us in the gaming community are glad that thing has gone by the wayside. We don't want anyone trying to keep it on life support.

By "we" you mean "you." I doubt you have met "most" people in the gaming community :). For myself, in the GTs I've attended and the clubs where I've been a member I haven't met many people at all who actually care as long as it's a friendly game. In my experience the only ones who are vehemently against it are those who simply want to force everyone to play their way or not at all. The only time I've met people who didn't want to try it were tournament players, and the main reason wasn't balance. It was because they just wanted a consistent set of rules for all people playing. Outside of the tourney environment they were fine with it as long as they knew in advance. Just my experience though.

As for house-ruled cultists using the current Chaos dex I think they would be fine. There are several variations you could use to represent them if you like. The ones in the 3.5 dex are in my experience fine. After all, they are worse than guard in almost all instances (laspistol and 6+ save? puh-lease). The three options they could choose from hardly unbalanced things, and I played two units of 20 of them. IMO they were overcosted meat shields. However, if your opponents didn't like them you could always use the rules for Witchhunter Zealots which would work fine too. I know GW had those rules available in PDF at one time and I may still have a copy of them somewhere. If you wanted to try them LMK and I'll see if I can't dig it up. Alternatively, as someone else said traitor guard from Siege of Vraks would work as would probably inducted guard from the WH/DH books. There really are a lot of options to represent cultists if you like. All it would take is agreement with your group to use any one of them. As I said, it's not like they were horribly overpowered by any stretch of the imagination.

Cheers, Gary

Vaktathi
13-06-2009, 20:41
You couldn't take four ordnance weapons AND twelve Obliterators. With four heavy support slots you could take twelve Oblits as the limit was removed. Well, apart from one heavy support slot, it's barely any different in the new codex. It's a shame that people abused such "flares" of character. Oblits were Elites in the 3.5 codex, *NOT* heavy Support, and the IW list removed their 0-1 restriction. Thus most other lists could only get 3 ordnance and 3 Oblits, IW's could get 9 oblits and 4 ordnance.

There was no way to get 12 Oblits in the old list.

Supremearchmarshal
15-06-2009, 09:44
Thanks for your opinions everybody. What are your opinions on house-ruling cultists into the 4th edition codex?

I'm not a powergamer, I don't know much about the old editions and so I probably can't tell if something is broken or not. I just saw lots of cool looking options and I wanted to use them.

You may find this Apocalypse datasheet represents cultists fairly well:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180083_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_The_Lost_and_the_Damned.pdf