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gortexgunnerson
30-12-2005, 15:37
Hey

I know in the 4th/5th Edition characteristics were capped at 10, I was just wondering if this was still true for this Edition. I was especially wondering this in respect for doubling Attacks, can you have more then 10?

Cheers

Atrahasis
30-12-2005, 15:47
M, A, W, are not capped, everything else is capped at 10.

Rikkjourd
30-12-2005, 15:50
I'm pretty sure everything is capped at 10, including those Atrahasis mentioned.

Atrahasis
30-12-2005, 15:55
I'm pretty sure everything is capped at 10, including those Atrahasis mentioned.

And I am certain that they are not capped. If you think they are, please provide a citation from the rulebook.

Festus
30-12-2005, 15:59
Hi

Although eg. there are no examples for having more W than ten IIRC, Atrahasis is right.

BS, WS, S, T, I, and LD are capped at ten (10). M, and A aren't...
I am not so sure about W though, as this is a physical charateristic as well.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
30-12-2005, 16:02
I am not so sure about W though, as this is a physical charateristic as well.


Items that allow an increase in wounds over the statline usually cap at twice starting wounds, but the rulebook places no limit.

Rikkjourd
30-12-2005, 16:04
@Atrahasis: Don't have the book at hand right now, why don't you do it?!

Griefbringer
30-12-2005, 16:43
BRB, page 38: I cannot find any mention of any maximum values for M, A or W, so I would presume there are no maximum values for those set by the rules.

That said, I am not really aware of any wunder-combos that could be used to bring number of attacks per model to over 10.

Izram
30-12-2005, 17:21
When black coach has more than 10 wounds it gains scything attacks. I sure hope it can get over 10 wounds!

gukal
30-12-2005, 17:26
A DragonSlayer from the Dwarf Storm of Chaos list can get to exactly 10 attacks with the Skavenslayer skill. The skill (which multiplies base attacks time the number of enemy models in base contact) could easily surpass 10 but includes an express limitation.

Offhand, I can't think of any other single model that comes close to 10 attacks (also barring monster-mounted Lords).

gortexgunnerson
30-12-2005, 18:04
That was the Example I was wondering about as I am painting up my slayer army at the mo and was wondering if a demon slayer in combat with an normal based sized is allowed the 12 Attacks that he would get (4 standard * 3 for the 3 guys in base to base) But I think that this is ok and as stated the Black Coach actually has rules relating to what happens if it gets over 10 wounds.

Cheers for your help

Major Defense
30-12-2005, 19:09
I've always understood that Ld is capped at 10 but I don't remember ever reading anything about the other stats having a limit. I guess the hit/wound charts stop at whatever number?

mageith
30-12-2005, 20:32
Hey

I know in the 4th/5th Edition characteristics were capped at 10, I was just wondering if this was still true for this Edition. I was especially wondering this in respect for doubling Attacks, can you have more then 10?

Cheers

I'm not sure anything is capped. Page 38 talks about several stats being rated from 1 to 10, but I'm not sure that would stop them from doubling to something higher if GW wanted to make such an item, for example.

Does something double attacks again? :(

Shimmergloom
30-12-2005, 23:55
A savage orc warboss who's frenzied has 5 attacks. Give him battleaxe of the last waaagh! and he gets D6 attacks. Roll a 6 and that's 11 attacks. Put him in a unit with Nogg's Banner and he'll have 12 attacks if he rolls a 6 during that round.

mujadaddy
31-12-2005, 00:32
WS, BS, Strength, Toughness, Initiative and Leadership all cap at 10 ... just look at the tables on which these stats are used...

Also, there's a difference between "the number on the profile" and "the total modified value" when it comes to Move, Wounds, and Attacks. In Shimmergloom's example, the warboss actually doesn't HAVE 12 Attacks on his profile, but is capable of striking 12 times due to items/modifiers.

skavenguy13
31-12-2005, 12:07
Leadership still wasn't brought in the question... what about it?
My master assassin with LD higher than 7 can give it to other units, including a unit of clanrats with +3 to LD. Can I get higher than 10?

IMO only the stats using the tables for hitting/wounding should be capeed at 10.

Festus
31-12-2005, 12:52
Hi

Leadership still wasn't brought in the question... what about it?
My master assassin with LD higher than 7 can give it to other units, including a unit of clanrats with +3 to LD. Can I get higher than 10?
No, there is no LD higher than 10. Even if you had Ld 10 naturally and tried to rally with a Musician in your ranks, it would still be against 10.

IIRC there is always a line to that effect in the relevant rules if the Ld of a unit can go over 10.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
31-12-2005, 13:11
My master assassin with LD higher than 7 can give it to other units, including a unit of clanrats with +3 to LD. Can I get higher than 10?


The "Strength In Numbers" rule specifically prohibits Leadership higher than 10, as does the rulebook.

Chuffy
31-12-2005, 13:52
Offhand, I can't think of any other single model that comes close to 10 attacks (also barring monster-mounted Lords).

Black Orc Warboss with the Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh in a unit carrying Noggs banner of butchery. He can potentially get 11 attacks.

der_lex
31-12-2005, 17:20
A Chaos lord with the berserker sword, surrounded on all sides, would get a lot of attacks as well...

Neknoh
31-12-2005, 18:32
Place him in a Chariot and mark him Khorne, then, surround him with Cavalry on all sides, that is... 5 base, frenzy +1, we're now at 6

4 Knights on each side of the Chariot at most... making US32, he gets half... that's another 16 atacks

So, 22 attacks.


Although, there is one that is worse:

Lord of Chaos, mark of Slaanesh, Blade of Blood, Pendant of Slaanesh, give him time and he'll have over 10 attacks and over 10 wounds, simply by chopping away at Rank and File troops whilst getting hit by Bolt Throwers

Atrahasis
01-01-2006, 11:37
Place him in a Chariot and mark him Khorne, then, surround him with Cavalry on all sides, that is... 5 base, frenzy +1, we're now at 6

4 Knights on each side of the Chariot at most... making US32, he gets half... that's another 16 atacksWhile we're pondering theoreticals, why not make the 16 cavalry 10 Great Unclean ones? 50 extra attacks.

So, 56 attacks.

Cpt. Drill
01-01-2006, 19:16
Black Orc Warboss with the Battleaxe of the Last Waaagh in a unit carrying Noggs banner of butchery. He can potentially get 11 attacks.

suerly he would only get that advantage due to the unit.... otherwise alone he capps at a max of 10!

Neknoh
01-01-2006, 19:45
Actually, you can add another four Great Unclean Ones to the corners as well, resulting in another 20 attacks, so, 76 attacks

Atrahasis
01-01-2006, 19:58
Actually, you can add another four Great Unclean Ones to the corners as well, resulting in another 20 attacks, so, 76 attacks

10 GUO is the maximum - I had already taken corner contact into consideration.

Griefbringer
01-01-2006, 20:26
Of course, getting charged by all that horde of the big messy ones means that the chaos lord in question would need to be rather lucky to get a chance to hit back (unless packing some other stuff allowing him to strike first).

Atrahasis
01-01-2006, 20:54
Of course, getting charged by all that horde of the big messy ones means that the chaos lord in question would need to be rather lucky to get a chance to hit back (unless packing some other stuff allowing him to strike first).

He's not likely to survive, no. Nor should he be, facing 6000 points worth of Daemonic wrath.

Griefbringer
01-01-2006, 21:19
Well, using ordinary army lists that game would need to be somewhere around 11000 points or so to pack that many big bad daemons.

der_lex
02-01-2006, 22:53
Actually, give the guy the Helmet of Many Eyes and he gets all of his attacks first, and has a decent chance of smooshing the daemons, sadly enough...

I can imagine the opponent just forfeiting the game as opposed to sit through that many die rolls, although that could be worse...it could be a Tzeentch lord with Orange Fire pre-cast...50+ attacks AND rerolls anyone?

Griefbringer
03-01-2006, 00:42
Hey, rolling for 50 attacks does not take that much time - all you need is a big enough bucket to fit all those dice in (any serious player should easily have 50 d6 at hand).

Izram
03-01-2006, 04:22
(any serious player should easily have 50 d6 at hand).
Most serious players play with a brick of dice which is 36.

Ganymede
03-01-2006, 05:45
As an added tidbit of trivial, there was a way to get a leadership of 12 in 5th edition. There was some demonic gift called 'Daemonic Arrogance' or something like that.

T10
03-01-2006, 09:38
Ridiculously high Ld values could also be found on the Daemon Princes of WH40k 2nd edition.

-T10

Festus
03-01-2006, 10:02
Hi

Actually, give the guy the Helmet of Many Eyes and he gets all of his attacks first, and has a decent chance of smooshing the daemons, sadly enough...
How could he possibly, having only half as many attacks as the 10GUO have wounds?

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
03-01-2006, 12:20
Most serious players play with a brick of dice which is 36.

Anyone with just 36 dice around is a newbie :rolleyes: . A really serious player would have 36 of the scatter and artillery dice alone. :cool:

As for the chaos lord against 10 uncleans, I guess the unclean ones would be having quite a time in taking the instability checks if the chaos lord would manage to survive through the first turn and dish out some hurting.

Izram
04-01-2006, 01:02
Anyone with just 36 dice around is a newbie :rolleyes: . A really serious player would have 36 of the scatter and artillery dice alone. :cool:

Maybe we differ on our definition of serious, but many of the GT winners I know use less than 36 dice and nearly all of those who score top 10 frequently use the standard 36 brick. Maybe you define serious as a player who brings a bag full of dice?

As for items that work on those in base contact, does it extend to the chariot base? I never saw anything either way. Are there rules for this or just a lack of rules against it? For some reason I am letting common sense and actual reality take over my mind (which is a terrible thing to do when disecting WHFB rules) but I feel that being in contact with the horsies and being face to face with the character is a different thing.

Mad Makz
04-01-2006, 02:43
I think by amount of dice one person is referring to how many someone brings to a game, and the other is referring to how many somebody owns.

I have a very large amount of dice floating around my house I have no doubt. I probably only turn up to your average game with 20 or so.

Griefbringer
04-01-2006, 11:19
I think by amount of dice one person is referring to how many someone brings to a game, and the other is referring to how many somebody owns.


Most likely the case - when I am going out I am not taking my whole box of 200+ dice with me, just the amount I expect to use.

As fro the base-to-base contact issue, general consensus tends to be that the the charior tends to qualify, since there is nothing against it - and if the character is on chariot, there is no other base size to use for him either. It might still be considered a bit gamey, though.

However, nobody is forced to charge the flanks of the chariot, and also a nice little cannonball can be used to de-chariot the character in question.

Hellebore
04-01-2006, 11:31
I believe that ALL stats are capped at their BASE starting value, at 10.

thus a model cannot have a basic WS of 11, or a basic W value of 15.

However, if their are situations and/or items that specifically allow additions to stats, this could take them over 10.

there is no Movement characteristic in the game that goes over 10 normally, however, when a unit marches or charges it doubles its movement. This doesn't change the basic movement value of the unit, it simply alters it due to a specific circumstance.

hellebore

Atrahasis
04-01-2006, 11:36
I believe that ALL stats are capped at their BASE starting value, at 10.

You believe wrongly.

M, A, and W are most certainly not capped in any way. There is no limit placed on them. There are no models that currently have characteristics above 10 in their profile, but that does not constitute a cap.

Ganymede
04-01-2006, 17:47
So we could say, for most intents and purposes, base satistics neer go above ten.

Atrahasis
04-01-2006, 17:59
So we could say, for most intents and purposes, base satistics neer go above ten.

If you want to waste time making meaningless statements, yes.

The fact that no model means nothing except that no model has ever had more than 10 wounds in its starting profile. It doesn't tell us anything about limits on characteristics or anything else.

What DOES tell us about limits on characteristics is the rulebook, and it places no limit on M, W, or A.

Chaos and Evil
04-01-2006, 18:16
There's a Zombie pirate combo of items that allows a character up to 11 attacks IIRC.

It's his normal attacks, plus extra hand weapon, plus D6 poisoned attacks from a magic item.

g0ddy
04-01-2006, 19:19
A saurus old blood w/ maining shield, scitmar of the sun and blessed spawning of sotek has 9 attacks on the charge and 8 standing still... all at s5 of course.

as for that chaos lord those GUO's... i think he needs some backup in the form of a chaos giant who can yell and bawl :p

edit : couldnt you have a toughness 11 dwarf in the last ed.. or was it t9?

- g0ddy

EvC
04-01-2006, 20:03
I seem to recall the Chaos Mammoth has maybe 12 wounds or so. Although that's Forge World's rules...

Hellebore
05-01-2006, 01:43
If you want to waste time making meaningless statements, yes.

The fact that no model means nothing except that no model has ever had more than 10 wounds in its starting profile. It doesn't tell us anything about limits on characteristics or anything else.

What DOES tell us about limits on characteristics is the rulebook, and it places no limit on M, W, or A.


Geez, calm down.

I don't recall anything in the BRB that says WS can only go to 10, or that I has a value of 10 maximum.

That's not to say it isn't true, but I would like to know WHERE it SPECIFICALLY says, WS, BS, S, T, I, Ld are CAPPED, and M, W, A are not.

hellebore

Griefbringer
05-01-2006, 11:53
I don't recall anything in the BRB that says WS can only go to 10, or that I has a value of 10 maximum.

That's not to say it isn't true, but I would like to know WHERE it SPECIFICALLY says, WS, BS, S, T, I, Ld are CAPPED, and M, W, A are not.


The best you get is BRB page 38, which states that WS, BS, S, T, I and LD are rated on a scale of 1 to 10. This would suggest that the maximum value for those characteristics could be 10 (however, this is partially contradicted on the next page where WS and BS are allowed to have values of 0).

However, there are not given any sort of scales or restrictions for M, W and A, so it can be assumed that they can have values anywhere from 0 onwards (though a model with 0 W gets removed immediately from the table as a casualty). Theoretically it could be argued that M and A could thus also reach negative values.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 12:43
Theoretically it could be argued that M and A could thus also reach negative values.

I believe the rules say that if any stat is reduced to 0 during the game that the model is removed from play.

Festus
05-01-2006, 16:26
Hi

I believe the rules say that if any stat is reduced to 0 during the game that the model is removed from play.
IIRC that was with certain items/skills which can reduce stats, and it is stated in each stat's description.

There are Stats that can be 0 without any problem, but usually even if you lose points from stats, the lower end is 1.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 17:33
If S, T, or W are reduced to 0, then the model is slain.

As Festus says, any other stat can be or be reduced to 0 with no problem, except if WS is 0 then the model cannot attack in close combat and will be automatically hit, and if BS is 0 then the model cannot use any missile weapons.

Griefbringer
05-01-2006, 20:32
As Atharasis says - BRB page 39 for those who are interested in actually reading it for yourself.