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Kargos Bloodspit
30-12-2005, 15:40
First attempt at a HoC list... probably will be my first Fantasy army as well... thoughts/opinions and changes are welcome.

Lords
Crom the Conqueror - 230pts
Crom(230)

Heroes
Exalted Champion of Chaos - 176pts
Champion(100), Shield(2), Crimson Armour of Dargan(20), Daemonic Steed(50), Additional Hand Weapon(4).

Bray Shaman - 135pts
Shaman(75), Dispel Scroll(25), Level 2(35)

Core

Warriors of Chaos - 210pts
12 Warriors(168), Mark of Chaos Undivided(0), Shields(12), Full Command(30)

Warriors of Chaos - 210pts
12 Warriors(168), Mark of Chaos Undivided(0), Shields(12), Full Command(30)

Marauders of Chaos - 96pts
16 Marauders(80), Mark of Chaos Undivided(0), Shields(16)

Marauders of Chaos - 96pts
16 Marauders(80), Mark of Chaos Undivided(0), Shields(16)

Marauders of Chaos - 96pts
16 Marauders(80), Mark of Chaos Undivided(0), Shields(16)

4 x Warhounds of Chaos - 60pts each - total: 240pts
10 Warhounds(60)

Warhounds of Chaos - 54pts
9 Warhounds(54)

Special

Beast Herd - 88pts
8 Gors(56), 8 Ungors(32)

Beast Herd - 88pts
8 Gors(56), 8 Ungors(32)

Rare

Chaos Furies - 75pts
5 Furies(75)

Chaos Giant - 205pts
Giant(205)

Total-1999pts
Model Count - 162.


Thanks in Advance.

Latro
30-12-2005, 16:11
Impressively big horde of Chaotic goodnes you have got there! I like it a lot. A few minor notes that may (or may not) be helpful:

- Playing with special characters is not always appreciated by your opponents in pick-up games ... make sure they know and agree with it.

- Having an additional handweapon gives no benefits when the character is mounted.

- Having a flock of just 5 Furies is a bit of a gamble, I prefer flocks of 6 (minimum for one succesful "mission") or 8 myself.

- Marauder horsemen are very good on the table and cheap in points ...


Praise Khorne!

:cool:

Kargos Bloodspit
30-12-2005, 16:17
Impressively big horde of Chaotic goodnes you have got there! I like it a lot.

Well... it does say Hordes of Chaos


A few minor notes that may (or may not) be helpful:

- Playing with special characters is not always appreciated by your opponents in pick-up games ... make sure they know and agree with it.

If I design a character that can be used interchangeably that should be ok? I do have enough slots to change the furies to Specials when I remove Crom...


- Having an additional handweapon gives no benefits when the character is mounted.

I didn't know that, cheers.

- Having a flock of just 5 Furies is a bit of a gamble, I prefer flocks of 6 (minimum for one succesful "mission") or 8 myself.
Perhaps use the 4pts I saved from the add. hand weapon, take off 2 hounds off the 9 hound unit, and put in another fury?


- Marauder horsemen are very good on the table and cheap in points ...

remove a hound unit in favour of one of these maybe? what kind of unit set-up should I go for?



Praise Khorne!

:cool:
im more of an undivided man myself ;)

Thanks for the quick reply.

edit:

Ok, as for the interchange, how about:

Lord of Chaos - 228pts
Lord of Chaos(210), Mark of Chaos Undivided(0), Shield(3), Scimitar of Skultar(15).

Granted, he compares not to the ultimate bad assery of Crom, but hey.

Jericho
30-12-2005, 20:13
I know it's one of your first lists, so this could be a long bunch of suggestions. Don't take it the wrong way, it's very hard to make good Fantasy lists before you've got a good understanding of how the units all perform on the field.

Those Warhounds are cheap, but when you take 49 of them it gets pretty pricey in points and dollars. You know that's like $300 of Hounds right? They're some of the most overpriced models since Grots. They're big and metal, but for a 60 pt box it's pretty nuts.

And finding room for all of them on the battlefield won't be too easy. Assuming the standard 6x4 gaming board for 2000 points of Fantasy they'll take up most of your real estate, and if there's a decent amount of scenery in the way you'll get bottlenecked pretty quickly. Forcing the slower combat units to the back of your zone and taking away a turn or so worth of combat. God help you if the enemy brings Scouts and you're logjammed and unable to march move at the same time.

If you're expecting the Hounds to do actual damage, then I'd consider swapping some out for Marauder Horsemen. They're faster, more maneuverable, do more damage, and have WAY better leadership. Hounds are almost a guaranteed failure unless they're snuggled up to the General. Taking Champion, Musician, and flails should be enough. Banner is just free victory points for the enemy if they make you run away from combat.

Finally the Demonic Mount for the Champion is a bit of a gamble as well. He's bigger than anything else in your army save for the Giant, so he'll almost always be elegible to take a cannonball shot. He might be better on horseback with a unit of cavalry, or simply on foot with the Warriors.

Sorry one more quick note. Might as well drop the Shaman to level 1 and take another dispel scroll, because with only 4 power dice you are only ever going to get a spell off if you roll boxcars. You often need at least 4 levels worth of magic users to have a magic phase worth mentioning... it's just too easy to shut down magic with a bunch of dispel scrolls. Offensive magic is pretty much an all-or-nothing practise.

For an example, my friend Tom's Chaos army had a single level 2 Bray Shaman and he never once got a spell off last game. I had 6 levels of magic and had more dispel dice than he had power dice, not to mention a couple of scrolls.

So the simplest advice I can give is this: Consider taking a few less units, but making all of them a bit bigger. Small unit sizes really hurt Chaos armies, because a few casualties will make the units unable to win a fight without a lot of support. They kill a lot, but without rank bonus, outnumber bonus, and command in your Marauders it's a VERY uphill battle.

If you're going sword and shield with combat units, they often need a Character joining them to get enough kills to win on their own. If things go well you'll have flank support from the hounds/other cavalry options, but you shouldn'y rely on that completely. Flails are a nice option for Marauders (way easier to win combat in 1 round, at the cost of staying power) and halberds aren't bad for Warriors. You can use the sword and shield if you want, but having the option of S5 attacks is nice against tougher opponents. Chosen with halberds are often a favorite, because they get the 4+ save and 2 S5 attacks each. Nasty :)

giacomo
30-12-2005, 23:18
I argree with Jericho on the the sizes sum how 20 works alot better for me than 16

Latro
31-12-2005, 07:59
Those Warhounds are cheap, but when you take 49 of them it gets pretty pricey in points and dollars. You know that's like $300 of Hounds right? They're some of the most overpriced models since Grots. They're big and metal, but for a 60 pt box it's pretty nuts.

And finding room for all of them on the battlefield won't be too easy. Assuming the standard 6x4 gaming board for 2000 points of Fantasy they'll take up most of your real estate, and if there's a decent amount of scenery in the way you'll get bottlenecked pretty quickly. Forcing the slower combat units to the back of your zone and taking away a turn or so worth of combat. God help you if the enemy brings Scouts and you're logjammed and unable to march move at the same time.

I'll second that.

The cost can be brought down by taking Goblin Wolfriders or Dire Wolves, but even then it still is going to be expensive. In my Chaos Cavalry army I've always used a mix of Warhounds (3x5) and Marauder Horsemen (2x5).

The Warhounds are there to get shot, get in the way of enemy units and claim territory if any are left ... the Horsemen gallop there where the enemy doesn't want them to be and threaten his vulnerable spots. :D


If you're expecting the Hounds to do actual damage, then I'd consider swapping some out for Marauder Horsemen. They're faster, more maneuverable, do more damage, and have WAY better leadership. Hounds are almost a guaranteed failure unless they're snuggled up to the General. Taking Champion, Musician, and flails should be enough. Banner is just free victory points for the enemy if they make you run away from combat.

I'll second that.

Currently I'm experimenting with a mounted Marauder Chieftain (converted Undividing Aspiring Champion) helping the Horsemen with their flank moves. He adds leadership and punch and can use their fast cavalry movement advantages ... good combination for not too much points.


Finally the Demonic Mount for the Champion is a bit of a gamble as well. He's bigger than anything else in your army save for the Giant, so he'll almost always be elegible to take a cannonball shot. He might be better on horseback with a unit of cavalry, or simply on foot with the Warriors.

There may be better choices, but sometimes it's enough to simply like a model for it to be in the army. Then again, my views on this might be a bit influenced by the fact that my opponents simply haven't got the time to go character-sniping because of the angry horde of knights that's going to be in their face on turn 2 :evilgrin:


Sorry one more quick note. Might as well drop the Shaman to level 1 and take another dispel scroll, because with only 4 power dice you are only ever going to get a spell off if you roll boxcars. You often need at least 4 levels worth of magic users to have a magic phase worth mentioning... it's just too easy to shut down magic with a bunch of dispel scrolls. Offensive magic is pretty much an all-or-nothing practise.

I'll second that ... unfortunately, which is why I play Khorne!


So the simplest advice I can give is this: Consider taking a few less units, but making all of them a bit bigger. Small unit sizes really hurt Chaos armies, because a few casualties will make the units unable to win a fight without a lot of support. They kill a lot, but without rank bonus, outnumber bonus, and command in your Marauders it's a VERY uphill battle.

... a few sidenotes:

- just a few very large units will never win you the battle
- a lot of small units can win you the battle
- some large units supported by several small units can win you the battle

That said, the Marauders would benefit from being a bit larger, say 20 models. This would make them more resilient against shooting and better at holding charges. The Chaos Warriors could even be reduced in size (10 with a musician should do) and used in a supporting role. The Marauders engage the enemy and hold them, or flee from the charge, and the Chaos Warriors flank them.


If you're going sword and shield with combat units, they often need a Character joining them to get enough kills to win on their own. If things go well you'll have flank support from the hounds/other cavalry options, but you shouldn'y rely on that completely. Flails are a nice option for Marauders (way easier to win combat in 1 round, at the cost of staying power) and halberds aren't bad for Warriors. You can use the sword and shield if you want, but having the option of S5 attacks is nice against tougher opponents. Chosen with halberds are often a favorite, because they get the 4+ save and 2 S5 attacks each. Nasty :)

You shouldn't count on combat results to win you battles at all, it's just not reliable and effective enough. The equipment of the Marauders should be there to prevent them from dying in combat ... 1 wound prevented = 1 wound caused. Flails may be nice in a small supporting unit that flanks, but using them in a main battle-line unit that is supposed to hold the enemy is asking for trouble. They simply don't do enough damage to off-set the fact that naked T3 models will die in droves.

Armour and shields ... always!

Chaos Warriors in a supporting role could benefit from halberds allright, but they do give up a +2 on their save in combat. If you want to play it safe, go for the armoured option (flanking gives enough advantage to win most of the time anyway) or go for halberds if you want more hitting power (which might come in handy against higher toughnes opponents.

:cool:

(PS Praise Khorne!)

Neknoh
31-12-2005, 10:45
What I see lacking in the advice given is that your Warrior and Marauder units each should get bumped with another four troops, making units of 16 Warriors and 20 Marauders, this will make them more durable.

This is also necesary in order to win combats, seeing as you hardly have any heavy hitters or infantry supporters in the forms of Knights or Chariots, so you need that statical resolution.

And, with those Beastherds, you can drop a LOT of your hounds, I woul suggest you to drop your hounds down to 3 units of 5 or 6, that is enough to screen you, especially if you use your beastherds as well.

What else... well... I'd deffinately go and get some more Furies as well as using that Bray Shaman for Dispelling purposes only, which means ignore his second level and get him either two Scrolls or a Power Fam.

If you have the points, I'd give your Warrior units Hallberds as well, making them able to either chop their way through anything when they charge, or, to take a charge from something heavier.

Also, drop the Daemonic Steed from your Exalted, and the Crimson Armour, the Armour of Damnation is so much better, you free up a lot of points by getting rid of the Steed (unless you want him to work Solo, in which case, keep the steed but give him the Gaze of the Gods instead of the armour, it works so much better when targeted by Cannons).
I would also suggest giving him the Enchanted Shield and a Hallberd, that way, he can either have a 2+ save and a 4+ Wardsave (both of which he have aggainst shooting as well), or, 4 strenght 6 attacks in close combat.

Kargos Bloodspit
31-12-2005, 15:38
I redid this last night without seeing the last 4 posts. Im open to getting rid of the exalted all together, maybe in favour of either getting an additional marauder unit and bulking up the marauder horsemen units with full commands minus Standard Bearer, or perhaps increasing the number of marauder horsemen...

Lords:

Crom the Conqueror - 230pts

Heroes:

Exalted Champion of Chaos - 182pts
Exalted Champion (100), Shield (2), Armour of Damnation(30), Daemonic Steed(50).

Bray Shaman - 125pts
Bray Shaman(75), 2 Dispel Scrolls (50)

Core:
3 x Marauders of Chaos - 140pts
20 Marauders(100), Light Armour & Shield (40), Marks of Chaos Undivided(0)

Warriors of Chaos - 270pts
16 Warriors (224), Sheilds (16), Full Command (30), Marks of Chaos Undivided (0)

2 x Marauder Horsemen - 80pts
5 Marauders (65), Shields (10), Marks of Chaos Undivided (0), Spears (5)

4 x Warhounds of Chaos - 30pts
5 Warhounds (30)

Special:
2 x Beast Herd - 88pts
8 Gors (56), 8 Ungors (32)

Rare:

Chaos Giant - 225pts
Giant (205), Mutant Monstrosity (20)

Chaos Furies - 90pts
6 Furies (90)

Total: 1998pts
Model Count: 148.

Thanks for all the advice so far guys.

EDIT: Right, had a think about what I could replace the exalted champion with, thoughts would be good:

184pts (from the 2 for underspending + exalted champion):

Upgrade warriors to have Halberds
Upgrade marauder horsemen with Musician and Chieftain
Put in a unit of 3 Chaos Ogres
Give them Heavy Armour
take the mutant monstrosity off the giant
give the ogres Shields, and give them additional hand weapons.

so:

Chaos Ogres - 135pts.
3 Ogres (105), Heavy Armour and Shields (18), Add. Hand Weapons (12).

Neknoh
31-12-2005, 16:28
I say swap the Spears and Shields on your Horsemen for Flails.

Also, drop one Hound unit and give the Horsemen a Musician each.

As for your Exalted, he's nice, though I still think that if he's going on solo misions, you should swap the Armour in favour of the Gaze and give him a Hallberd or a Greatweapon (I prefer Hallberds meself).

Also, don't bother with the Chaos Ogres, I'd much rather go for two Beast Chariots, even if it meant dropping the Hounds down to 2, Chariots can support your infantry so much better.

Hallberds for the Warriors would be nice though, but, I do believe you could simply drop a Gor or two from each Herd, that would give you enough points.

Other than that, your new list seems very nice, I must say I like it

Kargos Bloodspit
31-12-2005, 16:41
Just a thought, how would, dropping the shields on the marauder units and replacing them with Flails go down?, or is that best a tactic to use on only one unit of the 3? Or not at all?

Neknoh
31-12-2005, 17:04
Flails could be nice, but, you become very vulnerable to shooting (though 20 bodies and a rerollable Ld9 should soak that up nicely), it's the combat itself, either you have a 4+ save, but, then you need something to hit hard.

My suggestion is that you moddel two of your marauder units, one with Flails, the other with LA and Shields, the third one, you keep the arms unglued and use bluetack so that you can play arround with Shields in one battle and flails in the other to see if two blocks of shields and one block of flails works better than two blocks of flails and one block of shields

Kargos Bloodspit
31-12-2005, 17:28
My suggestion is that you moddel two of your marauder units, one with Flails, the other with LA and Shields, the third one, you keep the arms unglued and use bluetack so that you can play arround with Shields in one battle and flails in the other to see if two blocks of shields and one block of flails works better than two blocks of flails and one block of shields

Or magnetise them all?

Neknoh
31-12-2005, 17:32
If you have magnets, that would be ideal

Jericho
01-01-2006, 23:59
I should've been a bit more clear with my Marauder advice... I totally agree that they should have shields a lot of the time, and supporting units benefit from the flails quite a bit.

That's pretty similar to how I would be using Empire detachments... parent unit with shields and the flankers with halberds for extra strength. Extra armor for the unit that needs to soak the most damage, and a little extra umph for the unit that is just there for bonus CR points.

Some very good advice all around though, it's nice to see that I'm on the right page simply by playing against (and usually kicking the **** of) Chaos on a regular basis :D