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Sashu
30-12-2005, 17:45
Here is the situation:
There is a unit of Empire Swordsmen 3 Inches from my Unit of Skaven slaves. They charge, I flee. I run 9 Inches. How far do the Swordsmen go? Do they go their normal change range or the charge distance plus a pesuit roll. I can't seem to find the answer in the BRB, but the odds are, I'm blind.

Thank you.

Major Defense
30-12-2005, 17:48
When the slaves flee they immediately move 9 (2d6+1) inches. Now they are 12 inches from the Swordsmen and out of range and so they move a 'failed charge' of 4 inches.

The thing that you were missing is that units fleeing from a charge are moved immediately. When the charges are then moved (in the next sub-phase) they may or may not reach their target but since it's the same whole-phase (movement) the now fleeing unit does not get to flee again once the charges are moved. Yes, it's really complex until you understand it and then it's easy as pie.

Sashu
30-12-2005, 18:04
When the slaves flee they immediately move 9 (2d6+1) inches. Now they are 12 inches from the Swordsmen and out of range and so they move a 'failed charge' of 4 inches.

The thing that you were missing is that units fleeing from a charge are moved immediately. When the charges are then moved (in the next sub-phase) they may or may not reach their target but since it's the same whole-phase (movement) the now fleeing unit does not get to flee again once the charges are moved. Yes, it's really complex until you understand it and then it's easy as pie.

Thank you very much.

Tarax
31-12-2005, 09:42
I agree only with the first part of Major Defense's answer. When you charge, you only double your movement. Unlike pursue, which is only after the enemy breaks from combat, and a random distance and disorderly, while charging IS orderly.

I disagree though, where he says that the fleeing unit does so immediately AFTER the charge has been declared. Although not very clear in the rules, I would say that they flee just BEFORE the chargers are moved, thus after Compulsory Movement.

Festus
31-12-2005, 10:06
Hi

I disagree though, where he says that the fleeing unit does so immediately AFTER the charge has been declared. Although not very clear in the rules, I would say that they flee just BEFORE the chargers are moved, thus after Compulsory Movement.

No, Major Defense is right: Flee as a charge reaction is done after the charges were declared (as all other charge reactions like S&S).

If on the other hand the unit is fleeing because of fear or terror, it is moved just as the chargers are found to be in range, ie. right before the chargers move themselves.

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
31-12-2005, 17:58
Do they go their normal change range or the charge distance plus a pesuit roll.

You only ever get the pursuit roll if an enemy routs from an existing combat - otherwise you use the normal movement. So after the fleeing unit has been moved, the unit that declared the charge either does a full charge move (if they are still within range) or otherwise a failed charge move.

T10
01-01-2006, 21:20
Getting charged from multiple angles typically means that the unit is screwed. :)

As a house rule, we usually just roll the flee distance and add this to the individual charge distances. Thus the unit can either escape or be caught by one or more units. In either case, the unit is deemed to move directly away from the charger with the highest unit strength.

This approach is clear-cut since it quickly resolves wether or not the unit gets away. On the other hand, with radically different angles of approach it can become a bit odd.

-T10

Festus
02-01-2006, 09:39
Hi

As a house rule, we usually just roll the flee distance and add this to the individual charge distances. Thus the unit can either escape or be caught by one or more units. In either case, the unit is deemed to move directly away from the charger with the highest unit strength.

This approach is clear-cut since it quickly resolves wether or not the unit gets away. On the other hand, with radically different angles of approach it can become a bit odd.

This House-Rule is very radical IMO.

See this thread http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18801 for a very similar problem...

Greetings
Festus

mageith
02-01-2006, 12:28
Hi
This House-Rule is very radical IMO.

I don't play it that way, nor do I really like it, but its almost exactly the rule Gav wants to implement in 7e. At least it was about a year ago.

Tarax
06-01-2006, 09:00
No, Major Defense is right: Flee as a charge reaction is done after the charges were declared (as all other charge reactions like S&S).

If on the other hand the unit is fleeing because of fear or terror, it is moved just as the chargers are found to be in range, ie. right before the chargers move themselves.


Perhaps than the fleeing unit will have to move in the Compulsory Movement Phase, just like other fleeing unit. Probably best.

Also please quote the rule where it says when fleeing units (from a charge) have to move. I couldn't find it.

mageith
06-01-2006, 13:37
Also please quote the rule where it says when fleeing units (from a charge) have to move. I couldn't find it.

"As soon as a unit declares that it is fleeing, it is moved directly away from the charging enemies..." (45)

Festus
06-01-2006, 14:35
Hi

Thank you, MageIth :)

Greetings
Festus

Crazy Harborc
06-01-2006, 19:40
About a year ago.........I asked a long time opponent "when can a unit voluntarily flee?" He said anytime. This was just after he finished moving. SOOO I rolled two dice and my archers fled from in front of my Spearmen and the other detachment.........That, left his advanced DE spears facing a potential charge of the Empire's spears and their detachment of swords.

THAT is my idea of a "good" house rule.

Festus
06-01-2006, 20:14
Hi

This seems a bit OOT: Playing as such defies the whole point of planning your turns beforehand, as the oponent then simply moves away in *your* movement-phase.

THAT is something I consider BROKEN.

Festus

Stouty
06-01-2006, 20:29
When the archers get charged, that's when you flee behind the spearmen. Still a viable tactic.

Festus
06-01-2006, 21:10
Hi

When the archers get charged, that's when you flee behind the spearmen. Still a viable tactic.
A different thing entirely, as this switches the chargers...

Greetings
Festus

Crazy Harborc
06-01-2006, 21:33
The man was/is a rules expert, I was very surprised when he said anytime was okay. I haven't done THAT since, I likely won't either.:angel:

Atrahasis
06-01-2006, 22:14
The man was/is a rules expert, I was very surprised when he said anytime was okay. I haven't done THAT since, I likely won't either.:angel:

The rules do say that a unit can take a panic test at any time both players agree is suitable. You both agreed, so it was OK.

Festus
07-01-2006, 08:24
Hi

The rules do say that a unit can take a panic test at any time both players agree is suitable. You both agreed, so it was OK.
There still is a difference between a voluntary panic-test and a voluntary flight. The HE can be trusted to take and pass a panic test in most cases either ...
:)

Greetings
Festus

Tarax
07-01-2006, 13:47
"As soon as a unit declares that it is fleeing, it is moved directly away from the charging enemies..." (45)

Thank you, but I'm non the wiser. When then do I have to declare the flee-reaction?

At the start of the section on Charge Responses it says: "After you declare your charges, but before you measure whether chargers are within range, your opponent declares how each charged unit will respond."

Which would indicate that the flee reaction will be at the same moment as when another unit may Stand-and-Shoot.

To put it precise:
1. declare the charge
2. declare charge reaction
3. flee if chosen or shoot and work out casualties (with Panic test, when required)
4. measure charge distance
5. move chargers

But at what point do you Rally Fleeing Troops and Compulsory Moves? Between 1 and 2, between 2 and 3 or other? Anyone on a ruling on that?

Festus
07-01-2006, 13:49
Hi

Between 4 and 5.

As 5 is part of the move chargers subphase.

So

5. is Rally Fleeing Troops,
6. is COmpulsory moves and

7. is Move chargers (including measuring, failed charges, and various other effects)

Greetings
Festus

mageith
07-01-2006, 14:13
To put it precise:
1. declare the charge
2. declare charge reaction
3. flee if chosen

These are all part of the Declare chargers Subphase of Movement (44). They are all subphases of that phase. In other words.

1. Declare ALL charges.
2. Declare ALL charge reactions.
3. Flee (and hold) ALL units. The order isn't indicated, but I do it in charge declaration order.

Now comes rally and compulsory moves (44) and then the 4th Subphase "MOVE CHARGERS" begins and that's when you stand and



...shoot and work out casualties (with Panic test, when required)

4. measure charge distance
5. move chargers

This is all part of the 4th Subphase of Movement (44)



But at what point do you Rally Fleeing Troops and Compulsory Moves? Between 1 and 2, between 2 and 3 or other? Anyone on a ruling on that? See above and page 44. Rally and Compulsory Movement are actually quite separate and distinct subphases of Movement.


The S&S: "...work this out IMMEDIATELY before moving chargers" as found on page 45. So this actually comes after measuring but on page 52 it indicates that S&S comes before measuring. But how can that be, a unit cannot stand and shoot unit the distance is measured since S&S can only be done if the charger is half his charge distance away, so I follow the rule on 45. Actually page 61 can be read so that it doesn't contradict 45 anyway.

Ith

cramp
11-01-2006, 07:42
a question that i hope is related...am i right to say that after someone declares a flee charge reaction, that the distance is measured and the chargers moved, and if in their full charge move they overtake the flee ers the fleeing units are destroyed. or do they just move half their charge move

Major Defense
11-01-2006, 13:46
a question that i hope is related...am i right to say that after someone declares a flee charge reaction, that the distance is measured and the chargers moved, and if in their full charge move they overtake the flee ers the fleeing units are destroyed. or do they just move half their charge move

No. The fleeing unit is moved immediately after charge reactions are declared and before charges are moved. This is important because the fleeing unit may not always be able to move directly away from the chargers. The only situation where I could see measuring the charge distance before anyone moves (barring Frenzied requirements) is that if the charging unit is a skirmisher (not needing to wheel) and the fleeing unit can move directly away from them.

To expound on your question, after the fleeing unit is moved you measure the charge distance and if they reach then they will destroy the fleeing unit and move their full charge distance forward, stopping within 1" of any other enemy units. If they do not reach then they move a failed charge as normal.

Tarax
11-01-2006, 13:51
Mageith, perhaps you're having another version of the BRB, because my book doesn't specify it like you said. It only goes on about the chargers, not the charged.

Also note that you put different charge reaction into different sub-phases. Making it more confusing.

However you bring on another point, you declare ALL charges, etc at the same time and only AFTER all charges have been declared you declare your responses. Although you could do this seperately when the chargers are moved one at the time.