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View Full Version : Reason to take Storm Troopers?



Vutall
14-06-2009, 07:56
So I got to thinking...What is the reason to EVER take storm troopers instead of veterans? Lets compare something...

For a 10 man storm trooper squad you get: 10 Hot Shot Las Pistols, 8 Hot Shot Lasguns,2 Melta Guns Carapace Armor, Frag/Krak Grenades, Deep Strike, and Special Operations
-195pts

For a 10 man Veteran Squad you get: 8 Lasguns, 3 Melta Guns, Carapace Armor, Frag/Krak Grenades, 10 Melta Bombs, 1 Power Fist, 1 Demolition Charge.
-175pts

So, what does that 20 extra points net you? 10 additional CC attacks, AP3, and some situational effects.

Veterans on the other hand, do MASSIVE damage to armor, score, benefit from the order FRFSRF, and have a surprise in CC (powerfist).

Im not really sure GW balanced their stormies correctly.

Note, if anyone can point out a reason to take Stormies over Veterans, I would LOVE to hear it, because I am a huge fan of storm trooper fluff, but effectiveness, i dont see how they beat vets.

Vaktathi
14-06-2009, 08:00
basically, in terms of cost efficiency, vets and leman russ tanks do the same thing ST's do, but better and/or cheaper. Looking at it purely from a cost efficiency viewpoint, there really is no point to taking Stormtroopers.

That said, they do have cool background and I love the idea of Stormtroopers, they aren't totally inept, they can kill stuff, it's just they are likely to be a one-shot unit and other units do the same job better.

DarkstarSabre
14-06-2009, 08:07
Well...I suppose...if you filled your troops choices out with Infantry Platoons or Penal Legion....and I mean, maxed them out....you wouldn't be able to tax Veterans....because, only 6 troops choices, see?

So in theory you could take stormtroopers at that point...

Voleron
14-06-2009, 09:18
Eldar hate the buggers, and they have improved mobility over vets or LRs, enough to be able to take on the stupidly mobile Eldar on their own terms. Tau as well, to a certain extent.

Other than that, it's really an aesthetic choice. Plus, a lot of older Guard players have an absolute plethora of Stormie models to play with, and intend to use them - Absolute optimum effectiveness be damned.

Kriegfreak
14-06-2009, 09:28
I dunno, I like storm troopers. But I'm far from a power-gamer. Though looking at my codex and the points you brought up will no-doubt induce one or two more veterans choices to fill my ranks at some point. They probably could have made a limit to amount of veterans-choices allowed, I think the IG probably wouldn't have been hurt by it, though I'm not a fan of restrictions especially with troops. Its bad enough the only upgrades you take for commanders and what have are based mainly around what comes with the kits.

xerxeshavelock
14-06-2009, 09:36
There's only one way to find out...

Be interesting to try some games putting these squads against each other, or against a common enemy. A kind of standard test. Y'know, they have to take out a Marine squad and razorback, or give both squads a Chimera and let them fight it out.

Much more interesting than theoryhammer methinks

MasterGideon
14-06-2009, 09:45
I use my Storm Troopers to take out 1 specificant Unit and/or Tank, that why I have a 10 man unit with Power Weapon and 2 Melta Guns. they only go after a tactical type squads+Support Vechicle holding objectives until my main push arrivies.

I never let them engage Terminators, MC etc.....unless I know support his incomming as its a waste of shots from there hell guns.

They fill in a role that needs a dedicated unit to deal with another unit and that needs a High % chance to kill said unit.

While vets generally seem to be the IG verson to Tactical Squads, good at a lot of things, but not amazing at any one role.

Its down to a the players choice/feel for his army, be it fluff or because he a better than average joes tactices on how to use them. I for one love using them, they are are like terminators there to deal with 1 or 2 threats and then use them to mop up any remaining units that causing problems.

MasterGideon

The Marshel
14-06-2009, 10:00
i would have thought they'd be taken for the ability to blast through power armour...
Now, i can't see anything in their profile that would sugest that they arn't good at it, but considering it in a game scenario, they are a greater threat to my marine then the regular guardsmen, so they'd take priority during my shoot phase, i'd imagin thats what lets them down.

BuFFo
14-06-2009, 10:22
When I first saw Storm Troopers a few months ago in front of me, I knew right then and there that I would never take a unit until the next IG book comes out.

There are no situations I would ever take storm troopers, ever.

DaSpaceAsians
14-06-2009, 10:29
I just use them for coolness factor and soon I'll convert some Cadians Troopers to make AK-47 wielding Stormtroopers with a UZI wielding sergent.

Badger[Fr]
14-06-2009, 10:36
Comparing Storm Troopers to Veterans is unfair, for they don't fill the same niche in the army list. What makes ST valuable is neither their AP3 weapons nor their 4+ save, but their special deployment rules, which are far from being situational. Storm Troopers can bring two special weapons exactly where you need them, and this is something both Veterans and tanks cannot achieve.

Though, a ten-man ST squad is probably too expensive: these 5 additional men won't bring much in terms of firepower or resilience, and I'd rather field a 5-man suicide squad with 2 special weapons.


i would have thought they'd be taken for the ability to blast through power armour...
S3 Hellguns do not help much against T4 Marines, and if there's something the Imperial Guard does not lack, it's a wide range of low-AP weapons.

Xenobane
14-06-2009, 10:37
So, what does that 20 extra points net you? 10 additional CC attacks, AP3, and some situational effects.

In the right situation, that AP3 will inflict more than 20 points extra casualties on the enemy, won't it?

STs are no match for Vets in an all-comers list. But against MEQs, and used well, they are still a valuable unit in my opinion.

Voleron
14-06-2009, 11:02
;3674152']S3 Hellguns do not help much against T4 Marines, and if there's something the Imperial Guard does not lack, it's a wide range of low-AP weapons.
Indeed, however Marines aren't the only things that use power armour - Eldar and SoB come to mind. Furthermore, STs are quite useful against T3 4+sv units, so Tau, Grenadier Guard and Ork 'ardboyz/nobwing all suffer to ST shooting.

With 5+ and 6+ saves and higer toughnesses it's more efficient to take Vets, yes. However, depending on your local metagame, there's more than enough units in common use that STs are designed to blow holes in.

But yes, there do tend to be enough other low-AP guns in the Guard for STs to b redundant, I agree.

Epicenter
14-06-2009, 11:05
I don't think anyone will disagree that Stormtroopers are overpriced. IG codex writers have always had trouble pricing Stormtroopers correctly. This topic often comes up with my friends and I. I suspect the price break down for Stormtroopers is something like this:

You start with the vets points cost (since they both have the same profile) armed with a lasgun and a CCW. You add 3 points for the Carapace. I suspect the Hot-Shot Lasgun is cost around 2 points. Krak grenades are 1 point. The pistol is 1 point. The Special Orders is 1 point. Deep Strike is 1 point.

The problem is that I don't think Stormtroopers should be charged those last parts. Even with a CCW + Pistol, unless there's something more, they won't be good in CC, they're missing some special rule that'd make them good - if they had "flash bang grenades" or "assault specialists" or something that gave them Furious Charge, the Pistol + CCW would be worth it. As for the special deployment, if you're not deep striking, it's sort of wasted.

If you took away the cost for those things and made them 13-14 points, I think they'd be worth that - even "naked" 10-man Stormtroopers can kill about 4 Marines a turn. With plasma guns they kill like 5-6 Marines a turn. 12 would be nice, but only if GW had new figs and were trying to push them. 11 would be too cheap.

PapaDoc
14-06-2009, 14:21
The point with the stormtroopers is that they have scout. You can have scouting chimeras with them. Add some valkyries or vendettes along with veterans you can build a very hard army that gives you the abiliy to strike very hard very early.

For mankind
14-06-2009, 14:33
Special operations
Makes them faster than Veterans, so they need no chimera to get the melta guns close to a Land Raider, try the one option that allow rerolling your scatter dices while deep striking, its an instant kill.

Use small squads and focus on delivering the fire power of two special weapons right in the heart of the enemy.

With two meltas in a five man squad you pay only 105 or so points and combine them with astropaths and give then an order and you get an good chance to kill a land raider or something simmilar in round two.

You do not win a war with stormtroopers, but they are good to slow down the enemy.


Just try them out, give them a chance and you will be suprised

PapaDoc
14-06-2009, 14:46
Special operations
Makes them faster than Veterans, so they need no chimera to get the melta guns close to a Land Raider, try the one option that allow rerolling your scatter dices while deep striking, its an instant kill.


You only reroll the scatter dice not the distance? Becuase if you scatter there it should be around 7". Thats enough to put you out of the 6" range of the melta. Guard has better ways to deal with landraiders (vanquishers, demolishers, artillery, meltacannons, vendettas to some degree) I think.

They need the chimera for survival and so that you can scout move them towards your opponent if you get the first turn. Scout 12 + Move 12 in your turn + disembark and shoot up to 12. Combine this with a valkyrie assault aswell (ie do the same thing with them basicly) and your opponent will loose tons of units the first turn and there is nothing he can do about it.

If you get second you can scout them in such a position that you if he moves you can do the above.

Voleron
14-06-2009, 14:54
You only reroll the scatter dice not the distance? Becuase if you scatter there it should be around 7". Thats enough to put you out of the 6" range of the melta. Guard has better ways to deal with landraiders (vanquishers, demolishers, artillery, meltacannons, vendettas to some degree) I think.
I was under the impression that if you re-roll a scatter die for any reason, you must re-roll the associated distance dice too.

starlight
14-06-2009, 14:58
Stormtroopers are what the real world calls a *force multiplier*. They're okay on their own, but when used correctly in concert with other units (as noted above with astropaths and orders or Transports - dedicated or not) their effectiveness can leap up out of proportion with their points. Getting them into a great position early can take out a major threat before it does serious damage to your forces, although as with most special forces units, they are fragile and might not survive the encounter. :(

Joewrightgm
14-06-2009, 15:35
Stormtroopers are ninjas. FACT.

I've got a guy that I squared off with quite a few times over the last couple of weeks, and his storm troopers, no matter if I was fielding my orks or my necrons, just punished my forces.

Specifically, I lost half a squad of warriors to hot shots; only thing that saved me that game was my We'll Be Back rolls that were above average. Had I been anyone else, I would have been done.

Behind Enemy Lines is probably the most terrifying for me; I'd rank it up there with a Snikrot lead outflanking kommando mob.

Anyone who says they're bad units has not been handed a back alley curb-stomping by them.

Legionary
14-06-2009, 16:49
They're not bad by any means, but because they're overpriced they are going to suffer in a codex that offers a unit that can easily compete with Storm Troopers in terms of performance and capability: Veterans.

dark_horizons80
14-06-2009, 16:53
First off, dont use melta's, just 10 hot shot armed guys. 2nd Shoot the S@#T out of a unit of marine vets. Thats how to use them :)

commander of the marines
14-06-2009, 16:55
I can see no reason at all to take except if you need some deep strike meltas but even then they are way to expensive

laudarkul
14-06-2009, 17:18
In 1500 pts army list I prefer not to use them. More than 1500 pts army list I may think to take them; this depends on the enemy (against SM I'll use them).

spetswalshe
14-06-2009, 17:24
Well, an ST unit seconded to the Witch Hunters will probably not be expected...


... because nobody expects the inquisitiorial storm troopers.


Also I imagine ten extra CC attacks still gives them versatility; they're effectively double size, useful when you're Deep Striking right next to something that you'll likely end up in CC with. Regular guard or Tau (or gretchin) come to mind. Certainly they should last longer than vets, if you've somehow made a CC-based list and have a horde of bayonets bearing down behind them.

BigJon
14-06-2009, 17:26
I use them as throw away killers. Two squads of 5 with two melta guns and have
them deep strike to take out tanks or dreads or anything else the enemy decides
to keep hidden behind some hills.

Badger[Fr]
14-06-2009, 17:29
First off, dont use melta's, just 10 hot shot armed guys. 2nd Shoot the S@#T out of a unit of marine vets. Thats how to use them
Hellguns are a poor weapon against T4 models: 20 shots will, on average, kill 4 Space Marines. That's not enough to prevent your Stormies from being wiped by the unavoidable enemy counter-charge. I'd rather field a Colossus than waste almost two hundred points on such an expensive and unefficient squad.

What most people fail to understand is the fact that Storm Troopers are not a dedicated anti-MEQ unit. They are far more useful against foes such as Eldars or Tau, who usually outmaneuver the IG.

Vutall
14-06-2009, 17:33
Hmm. Perhaps a 5 man squad would be worth taking. I cant really decide. The same reason I have trouble wanting to take Marbo. I can effectively spend those points on another vet squad w valkyrie instead, giving me another scoring unit.

Cpt_Baughan
14-06-2009, 17:45
I agree they are over priced but do have their advantages.

Its really all down to "spechial operations"

It just so happens that one of those spechial rules is as follows -
Put a unit of well painted storm troopers on the table via whatever means and any marine player will go nuts to try and take them out at the expense of anything else!!!
Use this to your advantage and they are worth it and better for that role than veterans

borithan
14-06-2009, 17:51
Veterans on the other hand, do MASSIVE damage to armor, score, benefit from the order FRFSRF,Well, FRFSRF may actually apply to stormtroopers. Now, I wouldn't personally play it that way unless it was clarified as such, but the fact that stormtroopers specifically have "hotshot lasguns" rather than "hellguns" might be deliberately so that the order applies (As it applies to "lasguns" which "hotshot lasguns" still are). Now, I am not pushing this theory heavily, as I imagine it would have said "including hotshot lasguns" if it was meant to do this, but this particular negative MAY not apply.

Vutall
14-06-2009, 17:52
Actually Cpt. I think your onto something there. If your opponent isnt as experienced, they will most likely target what they deem is the most threat. So stormies are a magnet, allowing the rest of your force to be relatively unbothered....

Interesting.

Ranger S2H
14-06-2009, 17:55
you could use them to suck fire away from your better veteran squads?

hmmm, what should i blast to smithereens, the glory boys or the slightly unhinged guardsmen?

Bunnahabhain
14-06-2009, 17:59
Only one reason. I have lots of storm trooper models. The models and background have consistently been better than the rules, in various iterations of both.

If used well, with the right supporting units, and against the right enemy for their guns, then they're a very good unit. Unfortunately, the right type of enemy is fairly limited, and with the supporting units to make them work, they are very expensive, for a situational unit.
The other way to use them is as a suicidal minimum sized special weapons vehicle, which is what they've always been, , and frankly is boring.

The right type of enemy for them is T3, 3+ or 4+, so some eldar, some Tau, and some Guard. Agaisnt MEQs or tougher, or most Guard, or Orks, they're either overkill, so not very effective for their points, or not good enough, so not effective full stop.

If hellguns were something sensible, like 18" S3, AP6 Assualt 3, them they'd be a much better unit. Or a sensible price. Or both.

CrownAxe
14-06-2009, 18:02
I've seen someone field them with meltas and DS behind a tank and do alright with them

Lame Duck
14-06-2009, 18:07
10 man squad, x2 flamers, infiltrate first time pinning can be very useful

I haven't actually tried it though.

Vutall
14-06-2009, 18:23
I guess the other reason I bring this up is because I also play WH and DH, and would really like their new codex to be well thought out. If GW simply takes the Guard Stormies and copy pastes it into the WH or DH codex as a troop choice, I would be slightly upset.

(Though, making stormies as they are right now scoring would make them MUCH more worth it I think, but points wise it would be hard to justify taking them over a sister or knight squad *assuming sisters and knights points arnt adjusted*)

Cpt_Baughan
14-06-2009, 18:31
Slight deviation following on from the last point.

Did everyone notice there isn’t a single picture of a storm trooper model in the new guard codex? And all illustration depict them like the older style I personally associate more with Inquisitional storm troopers – purely guessing this is because they are hoping to update them with a new plastic kit and maybe more in the older style, who knows.

But back on track also sticking storm troopers in a new Valkyrie is just plain ass cool I don’t care what any one says or whether its tactical.

Lord Cook
14-06-2009, 18:49
Personally I'd buy them a Chimera, give them the Reconnaissance mission and then Outflank. But this is only if you really wanted an Outflanking unit and didn't want to use Valkyries/Vendettas, in which case Veterans would make a better cargo.


I was under the impression that if you re-roll a scatter die for any reason, you must re-roll the associated distance dice too.

Page 30 of the main rulebook specifically shows that 'scatter dice' are seperate from the 2D6 distance dice.


Well, FRFSRF may actually apply to stormtroopers.

Storm Bolters aren't Bolters. Robin Cruddace himself has said that it doesn't work like that as well.

LiMunPai
14-06-2009, 19:10
5 Man outflanking squad with 2xMelta and Power Weapon. These guys are just scary enough to get people away from the flanks or just strong enough to (probably) tear up a vehicle/5 man marine squad equivalent at the flanks if they don't move away.

If they move away from the flanks, they are more clumped together, so blast weapons are more effective. Everyone knows how much the guard love blast weapons.

Kirth
14-06-2009, 20:36
I am using Stormtroopers to outflank with scout sentinels. I take stormtroopers for their special deployment and their special weapon options. I only use them in squads of 5 with 2 specials. My force includes 2 units of scout sentinels and 2 units of stormtroopers, giving some close infantry support to my sentinels.

starlight
14-06-2009, 20:39
When using Sents this way, what are you arming them with and why?

Kirth
14-06-2009, 20:56
Heavy Flamers in 1 squadron, Autocannons in the other. The Heavy Flamer armed sentinels move through terrain backed by whichever stormtrooper squad ended up on their side to clear enemy troops from cover, the autocannon sentinels target artillery and rear armor on most vehicles.

So I use 2 scout sentinel squadrons and 2 squads of stormtroopers. 1 unit has melta guns, the other has plasma guns.

I'm debating going with a Heavy Flamer/Autocannon mix for both squads along with a PG/MG mix in the stormtrooper squads. Versatility over specialization at the cost of efficiency.

Loki73
14-06-2009, 22:36
I use my three squads in three valks. Now that the Valks can be flyers per the new white dwarf. In Apoc. One squad with meltas one with flamers and one with GL. 6 chaos marines a whole unit of orks and 3 wounds on a stompa not to bad if you ask me. But it is apoc.