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bob_the_small
14-06-2009, 23:23
So i was just wondering... as im building my eldar army.... what are good unit sizes for them? I was thinking 2 units of 10, but thats not very flexible so maybe units of 5?

C&C appreciated...

Vaktathi
14-06-2009, 23:34
I always run them in units of 10, units of 5 means they die extremely easily and often won't have enough firepower to take something down.

Zaonite
15-06-2009, 00:12
I agree with Vaktathi.

I always run with units of 10. I always make sure they either support each other or have a unit that supports them. I use guardians as a distraction/meatshield for support.

People usually ignore guardians in my experience but a unit worth 100 points that is overlooked can sometimes earn its points back double or even triple!

self biased
15-06-2009, 00:20
eldar are too fragile to run in much of anything outside of full squads, unless they're a shock unit that is intended to not see the turn after they do what they do.

Penitent
15-06-2009, 00:25
Another vote for full, 10-man squads, for both damage output and survivability.

EldarBishop
15-06-2009, 02:33
IMO, Eldar should field full 10-person units of (almost) any unit that can be.

The only occassion for 5 Dire Avengers is as DAVU in a Falcon... otherwise, it should be 10s only.

nightgant98c
15-06-2009, 05:24
I'll agree with everyone before me. 10 string units are the way to go.

archont
15-06-2009, 05:47
For the more specialised aspect warrior units, i.e. Banshees or Firedragons, I would recommend smaller unit sizes.

Dragons will usually do fine if purchased in squads of 5, Banshees in Squads of 7 are still murderous.

For Avengers it really depends. If you have them in a transport, 7 could be okay. If you really need them to deal with hordes, 10man squads would be the way to go, I believe.

Test it out, theres no click and win concept to eldar, you have to find your own balance of units :)

pinegulf
15-06-2009, 06:46
Well as exarchs are so expensive and useful it's a bit waste to either run DA squad without one or buy many exa:s to man them all.

Exia Angel
15-06-2009, 07:17
I would run a unit no smaller than 8. For the purposes of using a falcon as quick transport, you could do with 6, but the effectiveness is diminished.

I take a 10 squad with an exarch, shimmershield/PW, defend, and bladestorm. It's a good versatile unit.

thevampiredio
15-06-2009, 08:54
running full squad is a good. but what if i cut the squard down to 5 and use that extra points to fill a warwalker with double scat lazer?
my avangers cant do much with 18''...

Penitent
15-06-2009, 11:56
running full squad is a good. but what if i cut the squard down to 5 and use that extra points to fill a warwalker with double scat lazer?
my avangers cant do much with 18''...

I feel like 18" is a luxury! Well, really, its simply what it should be, but it feels like a luxury after having had to deal with 12" range through 3rd ed.

Warwalkers and more Avengers don't have to be an either/or proposition; its one of those situations where you have to look at what else is in your army.

But to your question: Warwalkers are fragile; basic arms can take them down, and it wouldn't be hard at all for an autocannon or missile launcher to do it. Meanwhile, your 5-man DA squad should not be expected to live long, or do much; they just don't have the numbers, and really they'll end up being a waste of points.

Give the 10-man squad a chance. Give em an Exarch with Bladestorm; very few units, if any, in the game can take 30 shots like that. If you want to up the damage output, take a farseer, and Guide the unit. Personally, I throw em into a Wave Serpent, which should help with your range issue.

Steel Rabbit
15-06-2009, 12:14
Credentials: Eldar general for 13 years

Opinion: max squads.

Vaktathi
15-06-2009, 12:30
running full squad is a good. but what if i cut the squard down to 5 and use that extra points to fill a warwalker with double scat lazer?
my avangers cant do much with 18''...

18" is plenty. It means you've got a 6" gap between most armies best shooting effectiveness and can force an opponent to have to move to fire at full efficiency (and lose the benefit of shooting any heavies at you). 18" lets you disembark out the back and fire under your transport and not risk getting assaulted back. There's all sorts of cool stuff that an 18" assault 2 weapon lets you do.

Penitent
15-06-2009, 12:38
18" is plenty. It means you've got a 6" gap between most armies best shooting effectiveness and can force an opponent to have to move to fire at full efficiency (and lose the benefit of shooting any heavies at you). 18" lets you disembark out the back and fire under your transport and not risk getting assaulted back. There's all sorts of cool stuff that an 18" assault 2 weapon lets you do.

My apologies, as I'm still adjusting to 5th ed rules, but I thought skimmers not blocking LoS died in 4th ed; am I wrong?

Agreed on all other points.

Vaktathi
15-06-2009, 13:00
My apologies, as I'm still adjusting to 5th ed rules, but I thought skimmers not blocking LoS died in 4th ed; am I wrong?

Agreed on all other points.

Depending on the flying stand used, one can still see *under* a skimmer however.

Bunnahabhain
15-06-2009, 13:52
Full size with exarch if you want them to do actually do something, minimum sized if you just want to make your Falcon scoring.

Due to their Eldar fragility, if you point them at something, you want it to die, so to avoid the return fire/charge, or to do maximum damage to really big units- ie 30 Ork mobs, so it only takes two or three units fire to deal with them, not four of five.

To achive this, to you want a big unit, so as to get maximum benefit from the exarch, and or the transport, or to make them more resilient if they're on foot.

Atomic Rooster
15-06-2009, 14:54
:cries:
Just to clear something up because people just don't seem to understand this:
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers have the same firepower as 1 unit of 10.

Ok, so now that that's out of the way, consider this one too:
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers are more survivable than 1 unit of 10 because of blasts, templates, and wasted overkill wounds on small units.

Ok then, so what was that about taking 1 unit of 10 for better firepower and survivability?

The only advantages of taking the larger units in a shooty squad with almost no close combat ability, such as Dire Avengers, are the following:
-Exarch abilities confer to more models
-lower # of kill points
-uses less troop slots
-allows the whole squad of 10 to counter charge in assault (usually a disadvantage though for a shooting unit like DAs)
-less likely to take LD check from shooting... no wait hardly. 5 man squads are better off in most cases too.

So, unless you're already using 6 troop choices or unless you're playing for kill points, full sized squads are sub optimal.

Bunnahabhain
15-06-2009, 15:18
Another one for your list, Atomic rooster.

Guide, and other farseer powers. Bigger unit means benefit work on more models at once.

EldarBishop
15-06-2009, 15:51
Well.

Credentials: Eldar general for 20 yrs
Opinion: max squads for MOST Eldar units.

Taking max size units of Dire Avengers maximizes Exarch powers and considering the COST of the exarch... using those to their fullest potential is a good idea.

When equiping the exarch with PW/SS and Defend, a larger the unit will benefit from a "bigger" tar-pit.

As unlikely as failing Ld tests at 9 due to shooting is, you should be less likely to take them with a larger unit.

Then, as already pointed out, there are Farseer powers, FOC chart restrictions...

And, if using them in a Mech capacity, you would need to have more transports to carry the same number of Avengers (in smaller units).

Vaktathi
15-06-2009, 22:31
:cries:
Just to clear something up because people just don't seem to understand this:
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers have the same firepower as 1 unit of 10.

Ok, so now that that's out of the way, consider this one too:
2 units of 5 Dire Avengers are more survivable than 1 unit of 10 because of blasts, templates, and wasted overkill wounds on small units.

Ok then, so what was that about taking 1 unit of 10 for better firepower and survivability?

The only advantages of taking the larger units in a shooty squad with almost no close combat ability, such as Dire Avengers, are the following:
-Exarch abilities confer to more models
-lower # of kill points
-uses less troop slots
-allows the whole squad of 10 to counter charge in assault (usually a disadvantage though for a shooting unit like DAs)
-less likely to take LD check from shooting... no wait hardly. 5 man squads are better off in most cases too.

So, unless you're already using 6 troop choices or unless you're playing for kill points, full sized squads are sub optimal.

You are forgetting about transports as well. 2 units of 10 require only 2 transports (who the hell runs footslogging DA's?) while 4 units of 5 requires 4 transports, which adds far more cost.

Units of 5 require more coordination and more transports, and are easier for one template weapon to wipe out.

LonelyPath
16-06-2009, 00:10
When playing against them they've always faired alot better in units of 10, 5 man squads get wiped out far to quickly.

J-man
16-06-2009, 01:26
You are forgetting about transports as well. 2 units of 10 require only 2 transports (who the hell runs footslogging DA's?) while 4 units of 5 requires 4 transports, which adds far more cost.

Units of 5 require more coordination and more transports, and are easier for one template weapon to wipe out.

I run footslogging dire avengers. Dire avengers in cover are awesome, they have enough range to stay back near your deployment and still be able to shoot and their range lets you walk backwards and shoot advancing infantry. Dire avengers do not need transports.

For DA squads without exarchs I would definitely go five man squads for all the great reasons listed by Atomic Rooster, unless you're planning on using a lot of farseer powers on them or including exarchs. In five-man squads with exarchs those exarchs will disappear too quickly. Otherwise, as has been said, 5+5 does indeed =10 so you still have the same amount of shooting but with the added benefit of being able to fire at more units.

thevampiredio
16-06-2009, 04:28
I feel like 18" is a luxury! Well, really, its simply what it should be, but it feels like a luxury after having had to deal with 12" range through 3rd ed.

sorry. i was a tau player. so i feel naked with 18'' lol. but i know what u mean. a lone warwalker is too vurnable. was just trying to cram as much long range i can in a 1000 point.:P

Triggerdog
16-06-2009, 06:48
Use squads of ten. that way when you bladestorm you have THIRTY SHOTS and then an assault. doesnt matter how thick your armor is, that hurts

flancen
16-06-2009, 11:14
Use squads of ten. that way when you bladestorm you have THIRTY SHOTS and then an assault. doesnt matter how thick your armor is, that hurts


combine that with guide and doom and the assault wont be needed:p

landingshortly
16-06-2009, 11:18
two answers:

unit of 10 with exarch, dual catapults and bladestorm. in combination with a dooming farseer total destruction for most things we encounter. 33 shots with rerollable woulds, what more do you want? that's probably like 7 dead marines. (+ the shurican pistol shot from the farseer) ... then charge and over it is.

unit of 5 in a falcon just to make it a scoring vehicle. it's darn nasty, yet very effective.