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View Full Version : 2000pt WoC Campaign Army Feat. Archaon - help for a newbie!



xsamx
15-06-2009, 08:44
Hi guys, i have a 2k point campaign starting thursday and I am currently building my models for my army! I am new to fantasy and this will be my first proper game (currently only two practice 1000 pt games played - only one with WoC). I know Archaon is a little cheesey, but my store is full of people who build super lists and play to win, and seeing as the campaign has prizes and i have no say in my opponents im aiming to build a list that can duke it out! so here is what i have:

Archaon - ***Points

8 Knights of Chaos
- Standard Bearer with Blasted Standard
- Musician
- Mark of Tzeentch.
- 410 points.

Level 2 Sorceror
- Mark of Nurgle
- Dispell Scroll
- Power Familiar
- 190 Points

Warriors of Chaos - 12
- Musician
- Standard Bearer
- Shields
- Great Weapons
- 234 points

Warriors of Chaos - 12
- Musician
-Standard
- Shields
- Additional Hand Weapon
- 222 points

Marauder Horsemen - 5
- Shields
- Throwing Axes
- 80 points

Marauders - 20
- Shields
- Light Armour
- Full Command
- Flails
- 160 points

5 Hounds
- ** points

Total - 2011 points (i know i need to knock a few off)

The plan is that the 8 knights will go with Archaon giving them two ranks and a 4+ ward Save, Archaon If i am right gets himself a massive 1+ ward save (his 3+ plus MoT +1 plus Blastard Standard+2?) This unit will be immune to psyc and cause terror and generally unleash hell like no other! The Nurgle sorcerer will spam buboes and go with the Warriors with AHW (i might drop 1 to keep it at 12 models and lower points). The great weapon warriors will hunt any big monsters or steam tank etc. The marauders give me a sizable unit and the marader horse will protect the flank Archaon isnt deployed on. The 5 hounds will screen my infantry as they move up the centre of the board.

As i say i am new and looking for advice! Please note though some things i cannot really change - the Great Weapons are modelled on for example, and I only have 20 mauraders etc. However, i am concerned i might not have enough units on the board? or my magic my lack? (2 lvl 2 - archaon is a lvl 2 Tzeentch). I am also concerned I have not used many marks on my infantry instead relying on their 3+ saves crossing the board and their 2+ in combat if its needed.

Please let me know what you think as on paper i think this seems quite a steady list and fun to play with! the special char also means i can get my head around rules easier and have less to remember which is a benefit!

The only thing im concerned about is magic or my lack of it? And also, if my nurgle sorceror joins a unit of knights, does his mark get conferred onto them?

ALL CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IS WELCOME!! Thanks in advance! :)


***EDIT***

I thought it might be worth mentioning what i have that i could swap for hero wise:

I have two exalted champs with dual hand weapon models on foot
Exalted champ with sword and shield on foot
BSB exalted champ on foot
The Archaon model
Chaos Lord on Daemonic steed model
2 sorceror on foot models
20 cash which could be used to buy something if you feel it will greatly aid my chances at victory!

Peregijn
15-06-2009, 10:20
wel there is are flaws in your reasoning in the archeon matter.
first: archon's marks of chaos work difrently than normal marks
second: wardsaves dont stack you have to use the strongest so he would always use his 3+

i personly i would use more screening units, and make tham 6 wide, in that way they can each protect a whole front of your infanterie. maby you should take 2 units more.

also i dont think that using archeon in a 2000p game is wise, he is verry expansive almost 1/3 of your army in a single model. if you lose archeon for another special char, like sigvald or valkia than you have the points for 2 units of warhounds and maby an other sorcerer, witch you could equip with the collar of khorne to give one of your warrior units some magic recitance.

edit1: also 8 knigts are verry expenisive, maby you can town down that unit a littel to lets say 6? knigts are so powerfull on the charge that the uasaly dont need another rank.

Temakador
15-06-2009, 10:29
fist ward saves can't stack unless they are stated so sorry no uber ward save for him and he allready has all the marks u can't give him more. so 3+ will have to do. Allso he does not have a negative armour save as someone tryed to say when he played my army he has a 1+ which includes his mount and armour and in his profile he has no sheild so go figure. Allso haveing a special char doea not allways make the rules easier to remember i mean The Lord of Chaos does have a lot of extra rules.

Magc wise u kick out 7 PD and 4 DD so ur magic deffence could do with some improveing, i would say if u are hopeing to use magic to defend then drop power fammiar and get another scroll .

Finaly the unit of nights is a 1000 pt sink, so half ur army is in one unit which if destroyed will then mean u lose the game, so be aware, allso magic that ignores armour will criple u and ur very expencive knights so again be warned.

xsamx
15-06-2009, 11:24
Well the knights will have a 4+ ward save too, as they have the blasted standard +5, plus MoT does stack (even if it doesnt add to archaon) so it is improved to a 4+ for them. I would of thought 8 knights with 1+ armour, 4+ ward, immune to psyc and archaon allowing Ld.10 reroll break teasts would make for a pretty rock hard unit?

Also Archaon has MR2- if he is with the unit will this means they benefit from the +2 dice? If so that is 6 dice total, but 2 can only be used to help archaon and possibly the knights. Yea i agree that another scroll would be useful though. I would then have 3 power dice in my pool and 2 for each mage. On average is this okay? I know ill get bashed around by uber-magic armies, but vs. the average will i be able to hold my own?

Perhaps dropping the knights to 6 and using the additional points to add another warhound and mark the two warrior units would be worthwhile? I am just concerned that the Knights will be the focus on the enemies efforts and therefore need to be able to take some casualties and still get into combat with at least 5 of them + archaon.

I was also considering a list with Vilitch and a Lvl 2 sorceror + a exalted BSB. Which do you think would fare better? This one is very much reliant on the unit with Archaon for its hitting power, perhaps a magic focussed army with more units is better idea?

Avian
15-06-2009, 11:28
MR from a character also applies to any unit they are with, yes.

danny-d-b
15-06-2009, 12:41
yep but the 4+ only works against shooting, not magic and combat

I'd make sure you have 3 mounted sorcers of nurgle all with bubus and spell kit and then with 4 level 2s (with archon) you get a a 10 PD and 5 DD (11/6 if you take spell famillar)

I'd then swap out all the core for marraduer horsemen and dogs and use the points to get another unit of knights and split the current ones so you get 3 units of 5 with what ever banner you see fit

Eta
15-06-2009, 13:08
yep but the 4+ only works against shooting, not magic and combat


It works against magic missiles, too. Concerning combat - you should get the charge with your knights and after such a charge there is hardly anything left that can threaten the knights' 1+ armour save.

Apart from that I would not play Archaon in only 2,000 points. He is too expensive.

Greetings
Eta

Avian
15-06-2009, 13:39
I'd make sure you have 3 mounted sorcers of nurgle all with bubus and spell kit and then with 4 level 2s (with archon) you get a a 10 PD and 5 DD (11/6 if you take spell famillar)

I'd then swap out all the core for marraduer horsemen and dogs and use the points to get another unit of knights and split the current ones so you get 3 units of 5 with what ever banner you see fit
I don't think advice that basically boils down to "take the army I'm fielding" is really all that helpful. He might not want to field that kind of army, or have the models for it, for that matter.

Temakador
15-06-2009, 14:15
i find that what ever u hit with archaon and 5+ knights will die no matter what, hell even archaon plus 2 knights would do it allso the magic heavy army sounds nice but if u did do it get more than one lord and one hero caster get like one lord and 2-3 heros who can blast the enemy with magic or u will find that even though ur paln works on magic its not that strong with it.

Allso if u do include the scroll in the army with archaon then yes u do limit ur magic, but with the amount of points u put into ur magic are u really expecting to attack the enemy with ur magic? the answer should be no and u have only got the mage for magical defence therefor a scroll is the better option and don't care that much about ur PD.

xsamx
15-06-2009, 14:15
Yea i am afraid models do limit my choices! I have currently models for two sorcerors on foot and thats it. I am as i say considering converting a vilitch and going for a list with him and two lvl 2 nurgle sorcerors in it? I have about 20 left which i can afford to spend on new models, so buying an additional regiment or a hero is okay, but any more than that and its not really an option; plus id like my warriors of chaos army to feel like a WARRIORS of chaos army, so having some heavily armoured bad-boys is a must! :)

I am thinking perhaps its worth knocking down the regiment of knights to 6 in order to buy either a second sorceror or to mark the two warrior units? I am confident that if they can survive magic/shooting attacks they will be fine in close combat.

abhhh so many options, my head is spinning trying to figure all this out, thanks for all the input so far guys its really helpful for a new guy!

xsamx
15-06-2009, 14:18
i find that what ever u hit with archaon and 5+ knights will die no matter what, hell even archaon plus 2 knights would do it allso the magic heavy army sounds nice but if u did do it get more than one lord and one hero caster get like one lord and 2-3 heros who can blast the enemy with magic or u will find that even though ur paln works on magic its not that strong with it.

Allso if u do include the scroll in the army with archaon then yes u do limit ur magic, but with the amount of points u put into ur magic are u really expecting to attack the enemy with ur magic? the answer should be no and u have only got the mage for magical defence therefor a scroll is the better option and don't care that much about ur PD.

Yes i am thinking that once the regiment is in combat it will destroy anything! I am just concerned about getting it into combat with at least 5 knights still standing, so the other 3 are there because i am assuming they will take several casualties as the enemy pours all they have onto them as they move across the board. Am i being too careful, could i use my points better elsewhere?


It works against magic missiles, too. Concerning combat - you should get the charge with your knights and after such a charge there is hardly anything left that can threaten the knights' 1+ armour save.

Apart from that I would not play Archaon in only 2,000 points. He is too expensive.

Greetings
Eta

Might i ask what alternate lord/hero set-ups you think would work in a similar way but more efficiently? Maybe a Chaos Lord & two sorceror heroes or something? As i say i am new and i find the wargear sections particularly boggling, trying to decide what to take without much gaming experience makes my head spin. Archaon was tempting because he seems to double as a BSB, a Lvl 2 Sorceror and a rock hard Lord, but the points do concern me.

danny-d-b
15-06-2009, 15:41
It works against magic missiles, too. Eta

Realy

Goes check book

The unit with the blasted standard has a 5+ ward save against attacks made in the shooting phase

can't see anything about magic missiles there

Brother J
15-06-2009, 16:01
Well the knights will have a 4+ ward save too, as they have the blasted standard +5, plus MoT does stack (even if it doesnt add to archaon) so it is improved to a 4+ for them. I would of thought 8 knights with 1+ armour, 4+ ward, immune to psyc and archaon allowing Ld.10 reroll break teasts would make for a pretty rock hard unit?


Perhaps dropping the knights to 6 and using the additional points to add another warhound and mark the two warrior units would be worthwhile? I am just concerned that the Knights will be the focus on the enemies efforts and therefore need to be able to take some casualties and still get into combat with at least 5 of them + archaon.



You pretty much solved your own problem here. 8 knights + Archaon is entirely too wide to actually use effectively. You're going to get caught behind a lot of units/terrain features. Add in the fact that Archaon's base is pretty much two cavalry bases stuck together, and you're running 10 wide.

For the second portion. Screening units for the knights will always be more beneficial then having 8. For 30 points you've got a 5 man screening unit of hounds. 36 points is 6, perfect for a 6 wide unit of knights following closely behind. No matter what you do, Knights are going to be a big focus for enemy fire, if it exists. So instead of making units larger to make up for casualties, you take the extra points (/minus 40 per extra unneeded knights) and use them to build up the defenses on the smaller unit.

xsamx
15-06-2009, 16:28
You pretty much solved your own problem here. 8 knights + Archaon is entirely too wide to actually use effectively. You're going to get caught behind a lot of units/terrain features. Add in the fact that Archaon's base is pretty much two cavalry bases stuck together, and you're running 10 wide.

For the second portion. Screening units for the knights will always be more beneficial then having 8. For 30 points you've got a 5 man screening unit of hounds. 36 points is 6, perfect for a 6 wide unit of knights following closely behind. No matter what you do, Knights are going to be a big focus for enemy fire, if it exists. So instead of making units larger to make up for casualties, you take the extra points (/minus 40 per extra unneeded knights) and use them to build up the defenses on the smaller unit.

Thanks for the advice, things are definately getting clearer now.

So if i dropped the additional knights AND archaon, and say went for 6 knights + a 36 point screen of hounds, I could then add a couple more sorcerors (one a level four lord) and leave the knights to do the punching-through-nasty-stuff with a BSB or something? Does that sound reasonable?

Also i am curious to know how to get charges off with shielding units, is the assumption the unit will be dead by the time it comes to a charge? Or do you wait for them to be charged and then issue the flee command and couter-charge, or do you simply move them out the way for one turn and charge in the next? Then marking the knights with the MoK would mean they could deliver even nastier blows once their screen has dropped?

Thanks for the help!!

Nightsword
15-06-2009, 22:31
8 knights + Archaon is entirely too wide to actually use effectively. You're going to get caught behind a lot of units/terrain features. Add in the fact that Archaon's base is pretty much two cavalry bases stuck together, and you're running 10 wide.

He mentioned having two ranks in the first post, so it will be 5 wide, not 10. 8 is still too many knights. With Archaon, 5 is sufficient, though in this case you do have a wider frontage. Save a shed load of points though.

Brother J
15-06-2009, 23:23
He mentioned having two ranks in the first post, so it will be 5 wide, not 10. 8 is still too many knights. With Archaon, 5 is sufficient, though in this case you do have a wider frontage. Save a shed load of points though.

Woops. Must have glanced over that portion and it not stuck in my head. Not even sure why I stuck on the 10 wide thing, as no one would use that unless...well unless they were charging head first into a frontage of easily broken units with light armour and they wanted to see the whole army go fleeing off the table..(Skaven) and laugh as they're all just causing carnage.

Even at 5 wide and two ranks...Well..I mean..Is there really a point to having a second rank of Chaos Knights? They're one of the most awesome Cav. units in game. They're made for demolishing the enemy and not giving them a chance to attack back. Static CR isn't a Knight's thing.

But, I'm with you on the points saving portion. The last game I actually took Archaon in was a horrible thing to see. In the end I was left with only Archaon due to extremely horrible moves on my part. He lasted two of the last three turns being completely surrounded though..Eventually he killed himself with his sword haha

Peregijn
16-06-2009, 09:33
Realy

Goes check book


can't see anything about magic missiles there


you are right the banner works against attacks made in the shooting fase, not directly against ranged attacks. so it dosn't work on magic missils but wit MR2 you can surly dispel most magic missles anyway

edit: i have the same problem with screening units... last game they bloked the charge of my knights... but it was that or get 3/4 bolt trowers in my flank...

xsamx
16-06-2009, 09:50
Sorcerer Lord
Lvl 4
Mark of Nurgle
Skull of Katam
Enchanted Shield
Glaive of Putrification
380


Chaos Sorcerer
Lvl 2
Mark of Nurgle
Dispel Scroll
Power Familar
Book of Secrets
215


Chaos Sorcerer
Lvl 2
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Infernal Puppet
Necrotic Phylactery
195


12 Chaos Warriors
Great Weapons
Shields
Standard & Musician
Mark of Khorne
264

6 Warhounds
36

12 Chaos Warriors
Shields
Additional Hand Weapons
Full Command
Mark of Slaanesh
232

5 Marauder Horsemen
Throwing Axes
Shields
80


5 Chaos Knights
Mark of Tzeentch
Blasted Standard
Standard & Musician
295

5 Chaos Knights
Mark of Nurgle
Standard & Musician
War Banner
285

2002 Points

My 2nd attempt at a competative list for the campaign, it is based around one proposed to me by a helpful individual but i have changed parts slightly. What do you all think?

Also, is it ever viable to put a nurgle sorceror on a daemonic mount? because i love that model!

Griffery
16-06-2009, 19:19
Thats alot of knights. Personally I think mark of tzeentch is a complete waste on anything but a spell caster. You should give them either Mark of Khorne or Mark of Nurgle. Also I love Archaon more than the next person but he is sooo expensive esppecially at 2k. He alone takes up more than a fourth of your points. If you truly want to kit out your knights, give them Mark of Nurgle with the Banner of Rage and put archaon in there. You might need to screen them but you should be albe to destroy anything that your opponent tries to tarpit you with in the first round of combat. I don't think you should give the warriors great weapons, I normally save great weapons for Chosen. I would suggest giving them Shields. Warriors with shields are extremely difficult to kill.