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jax40kplyr1
15-06-2009, 17:00
Okay from reading the rules and FAQ, I'm not really sure how folks can do the 1st turn charge with Shades/Assassin combo. So I set up the shades & assassin 2 inches in terrain (woods). I get first turn - I reveal the assassin. How does "displacing a model" somehow get me 1 inch closer so I can see out of the woods and declare a charge? It would seem to me you take the place of the model that is closest, which would still put you 2" in. . . any help on this one?

stripsteak
15-06-2009, 17:05
When you displace the shade you place the assassin where he was, and then move the shade so that he is still within the formation, ie within 1" of the other models.



s E
s s----------E
s E

reveal assassin

s E
s a s--------E
s E

Spirit
15-06-2009, 18:19
So basically your gonna charge and get a conga line of shades, with the assassin moved to the front, as there will only be one model in range of charging. (i assume they have M5, not M6)

Doesn't sound particularly game breaking. However if someone tried it against me, i'd pack up and concede lol.

gaiaterra
15-06-2009, 18:22
I believe once you have charged you then have to put the assassin (or unit champ if you are a bit daft) in the front rank replacing the one model that actually made contact from the charge.

Malorian
15-06-2009, 18:23
Doesn't sound particularly game breaking. However if someone tried it against me, i'd pack up and concede lol.

*Makes mental note on how to beat Spirit in the next tournament*

:p


Like stripsteak said it would result in a congo line and most blocks can easily deal with an assassin even in the side. Anything weaker could just flee if it's really a big deal.

DarkTerror
15-06-2009, 18:41
Not a big deal. Anyone who quits from this tactic probably has no skill as a general, as it's fairly well known that DEs can do it and it's VERY easily defeated.

Griefbringer
15-06-2009, 18:43
Sounds like a perfect recipe to get your assassin and shades fleeing by the end of the 1st round...

Hulkster
15-06-2009, 19:38
it can work well

think about, first turn chage on a weak unit, or a warmachine, or even a flank charge on an enemy unit of knights, assassin with manbane kills 2, you win combat and form up

you just have to be smart about using it

it is not game breaking, and can be game winning, especially if you opponent panics easily and weakens the rest of his army to deal with that threat and ignores the rest of your army

sulla
15-06-2009, 22:07
So basically your gonna charge and get a conga line of shades, with the assassin moved to the front, as there will only be one model in range of charging. (i assume they have M5, not M6)
.

...Assuming the enemy has not moved closer anyway... Seems a big assumption to me unless you are bunkering up with your gunline, in which case the assassin can probably win the combat easily against shooting units or war machines.

Lord Dan
15-06-2009, 22:31
My favorite thing about the FAQ on this rule is the fact that GW seemed amused by it more than anything. I recall them saying something like: "Well that's an interesting take on things! Sure, why not?"

sulla
16-06-2009, 01:35
My favorite thing about the FAQ on this rule is the fact that GW seemed amused by it more than anything. I recall them saying something like: "Well that's an interesting take on things! Sure, why not?"

It was probably the only answer available to them short of an errata rewriting how assassins revealed themselves, (which is what they should have done to stop this sort of sillyness), but yeah, that and the DoC one where they let skulltaker and epidemious join any unit they want...:wtf: I'd prefer it if they fixed glitches like those rather than clapping their hands, saying 'well done,' and standing back to watch the carnage.

jax40kplyr1
16-06-2009, 01:52
I think the other aspect of it too though (why it can be such a nasty combo) - move those guys up an inch or whatever - combine their shooting with an assassin with manbane and rending stars - potential Str 7 attacks, plus a crap load of repeater boltthrower shots.

Lordmonkey
16-06-2009, 13:10
You can get 1 str 5 hatred attack on the enemy unit + outnumbering. Vs a warmachine crew it's worth it, especially if you draw - there probably won't be any units that can react on turn 1, leaving your shades to murder the rest in the enemy turn, and therefore free to shoot/rending star or simply charge a fresh victim on turn 2 - possibly with a cauldron boost?

You would need to take two casualties to lose vs most war machine crew.

Draconian77
16-06-2009, 13:31
So if you playing Dark Elves don't place the war machines too close to the terrain in your deployment zone...doesn't seem too bad to me, minimum of 5 Shades and an Assassin will still cost a DE player roughly 240~ish points. (Assuming GW's for the Shades and something like Touch of Death and Rune of Khaine on the Assassin.)

nosferatu1001
16-06-2009, 14:41
You can get 1 str 5 hatred attack on the enemy unit + outnumbering. Vs a warmachine crew it's worth it, especially if you draw - there probably won't be any units that can react on turn 1, leaving your shades to murder the rest in the enemy turn, and therefore free to shoot/rending star or simply charge a fresh victim on turn 2 - possibly with a cauldron boost?

You would need to take two casualties to lose vs most war machine crew.

Incorrect - the asassin automatically leaps to the front of the combat, rules for skirmishers.

So you get 4+D3 attacks (or whatever it is...) depending on load out. Nasty.

Spirit
16-06-2009, 14:50
...Assuming the enemy has not moved closer anyway... Seems a big assumption to me unless you are bunkering up with your gunline, in which case the assassin can probably win the combat easily against shooting units or war machines.

I think the last thing i would be doing is moving closer to a unit of shades that probably have great weapons.

Lordmonkey
16-06-2009, 14:57
Incorrect - the asassin automatically leaps to the front of the combat, rules for skirmishers.

So you get 4+D3 attacks (or whatever it is...) depending on load out. Nasty.

Oh. Dirty Dang Ninjas...

Cool! :D

EvC
16-06-2009, 15:00
It was probably the only answer available to them short of an errata rewriting how assassins revealed themselves, (which is what they should have done to stop this sort of sillyness), but yeah, that and the DoC one where they let skulltaker and epidemious join any unit they want...:wtf: I'd prefer it if they fixed glitches like those rather than clapping their hands, saying 'well done,' and standing back to watch the carnage.

Indeed. What's also quite funny is that usually only one half of the sneakiness is presented, there's usually an equally and opposite lawyerism: for example with Steam Tanks, people have argued that if the thing doesn't ever give up half VPs for half wounds, then surely by equal RAW it can be spiked as well. In the case of Dark Elf Assassins, you could also present the argument that an Assassin can never reveal himself is a unit of Shades until close combat, as he should be placed in the front rank when revealed, which Shades do not have. That would solve the sneaky displacement trick :D

Lordmonkey
16-06-2009, 15:18
If only it wasn't for those pesky FAQ's, eh? :rolleyes:

sulla
16-06-2009, 19:41
I think the last thing i would be doing is moving closer to a unit of shades that probably have great weapons. If you don't move your units that are near the shades, haven't they done their job of disruption anyway? For all you know, they don't even have an assassin in there. That's 100pts holding an entire flank on their own.


In the case of Dark Elf Assassins, you could also present the argument that an Assassin can never reveal himself is a unit of Shades until close combat, as he should be placed in the front rank when revealed, which Shades do not have. That would solve the sneaky displacement trick :D

Hur, hur...

Spirit
17-06-2009, 01:04
If you don't move your units that are near the shades, haven't they done their job of disruption anyway? For all you know, they don't even have an assassin in there. That's 100pts holding an entire flank on their own.





I'm not saying i would not deal with them in 6 turns. I'm saying i would not present a target that they could kill turn 1.

To be honest, in my case (VC) i would just march some zombies right up to them. I very rarely see more than 2 possible places that scouts will go on any given map so it's not hard to not place lone characters, fragile units or warmachines near these spots.

Corpus Festerheart
17-06-2009, 08:42
the model replaced by the assasin isn't removed from the game:wtf:?
think I'm confused...

Lordmonkey
17-06-2009, 09:15
the model replaced by the assasin isn't removed from the game:wtf:?
think I'm confused...

No, it is displaced, similar to when you place characters inside units during deployment. Since there is no back rank in which to place the spare model, you can place it anywhere within 1" coherency - i.e. within 10" of the enemy :D

Lexy
17-06-2009, 12:11
So if you playing Dark Elves don't place the war machines too close to the terrain in your deployment zone...doesn't seem too bad to me, minimum of 5 Shades and an Assassin will still cost a DE player roughly 240~ish points. (Assuming GW's for the Shades and something like Touch of Death and Rune of Khaine on the Assassin.)

OR move them really close, so they can't deploy their;)

The trick is a legal one, but I wouldn't dare doing that in a friendly game.

Atrahasis
17-06-2009, 14:00
Steam Tanks, people have argued that if the thing doesn't ever give up half VPs for half wounds, then surely by equal RAW it can be spiked as well.Nope, the argument that Tanks can be spiked is completely without merit.

Count Zero
18-06-2009, 07:55
the model replaced by the assasin isn't removed from the game:wtf:?
think I'm confused...

you''re thinking of Shadowblade, the SC assassin, who can hide in enemy units, when he is revealed one of the enemy is killed (i think, unless the changed it).

Skogla
18-06-2009, 08:43
you''re thinking of Shadowblade, the SC assassin, who can hide in enemy units, when he is revealed one of the enemy is killed (i think, unless the changed it).

They did not chage it so, he kills one enemy ;)

TheDarkDaff
18-06-2009, 09:08
The more important bit is that you can suddenly move your unit into LoS at the start of the turn to get a charge off that wouldn't other wise be possible. Shades just over 2 inches in can't be seen but the Assassin pops a shade out to the edge of the wood so the unit now has LoS to declare a charge. You can do this on any turn as long as the Assassin is still hidden.

So when i used to run my dark riders right near a forrest with Scouts in it i could be fairly confident of being able to get away but now you can get hit right next to the wood. If the shades loose combat and flee then they have just sucked a unit into the woods (unless they restrain pursuit). Works great on Frenzied units as they now have to stay completely away from most terrain features.

Atrahasis
18-06-2009, 09:50
...and all Dark Elves since they have hatred.

Count Zero
18-06-2009, 10:01
The only thing to remember is that the assassin + shade unit will normally be clocking in a 250+ points. its a lot of unarmoured eggs in a very dangerous basket.

sulla
18-06-2009, 21:31
The only thing to remember is that the assassin + shade unit will normally be clocking in a 250+ points. its a lot of unarmoured eggs in a very dangerous basket....(works better in a magic heavy army, rather than a hotek and caddy one.)