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shadowprince
31-12-2005, 01:12
ok been playing four 4 years and actually havent met a girl yet that plays warhammer, know a few that play D&D but thats all, so just curiose how many girls atually play

blitz589
31-12-2005, 01:15
Ive seen 1 at GW, and I saw 1 that played 40k to.

piotrov
31-12-2005, 02:33
Ah, it was only a matter of time before this discussion popped up again.... They're out there - they're just not usually as...obvious...as your average male gamer. You might've even met one (or several), but didn't know it* . For various reasons, you are unlikely to find a female gamer just "hanging out" at the local game shop, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The newest US White Dwarf even has an article about female wargamers (specifically 40K) and hobbyists.

As for myself, I'm Male (and voted as such). I've known a few "gamer girls" over the years, plus my girlfriend plays WFB and Warmachine, and she started playing wargames before we got together.

*Perhaps even on this very website. ;)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
31-12-2005, 08:29
I don't mean disrespect to anyone in any way, but i like spending an evening with "the guys" and gaming and beer and watching the Detroit Pistons destroy all who cross their warpath.

shadowprince
31-12-2005, 08:35
yes I do agree, but I also play many tournaments and go to the local stores still no dice (lol sounding pathetic here
);)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
31-12-2005, 08:49
Ive seen 1 at GW, and I saw 1 that played 40k to.
They say she did 'em in. They say she did it with an axe...

athamas
31-12-2005, 09:26
well there is one that plays tau at out local store, and a few who are the botfriends who occasionally turn up, and then there is the staff member ofther half who turns up, so we have a fair few females,

shadowprince
31-12-2005, 09:40
They say she did 'em in. They say she did it with an axe...

lol to that and currently we have a 15 to none ratio.

speedygogo
31-12-2005, 09:56
My wife plays warhammer with me and I have met several female gamers. The only common denominator between all the female gamers I have met is their avoidance of rule nazism. I think that when women game it is much more of a social experience and I have seen poor sportsmanship turn them away from gaming. By having a good attitude and enjoying the game, I have seen women get hooked on warhammer. For example, at our local gaming store we were having lots of fun tournament on saturdays. Cracking jokes and just enjoying warhammer. Peoples sisters and wives started to come by and were buying armies for themselves. Then a few players with bad attitudes started to come by to play too and the drove all the grils and alot of the male gamers away. Yelling and threatening an opponent has no place in warhammer, nor does beating the **** out of a new player.

piotrov
31-12-2005, 10:17
The only common denominator between all the female gamers I have met is their avoidance of rule nazism. I think that when women game it is much more of a social experience and I have seen poor sportsmanship turn them away from gaming. By having a good attitude and enjoying the game, I have seen women get hooked on warhammer.
Very true, although that's true for quite a lot of male gamers as well (myself included). My GF is much more interested in playing "story-driven" battles, e.g. campaigns and scenarios (not pitched battles).

That being said, I've found (from experience) that female gamers are commonly ruthless generals, exceptional tacticians and can be sore losers.... If girls are going to commit to playing wargames, then they play to win.

Crube
31-12-2005, 10:52
IIRC, the 'official' stats when I was at GW was 97/98% male, 2/3% female...

Seen a few female gamers at WHW occasionally...

god octo
31-12-2005, 11:29
i saw a girl in a shop buying dark elves once.

skavenguy13
31-12-2005, 12:29
*godly voice* I am immortal
erm... anyway! In my local store, I saw something like 60 players, of which were 2 girls. And they play very rarely

Kandra
31-12-2005, 14:56
Peekaboo? :angel:

Out of about 100 members, our club has four female members, as well as three or four other girls that are interested in the hobby and are slowly building on their first armies but aren't members of the club yet.

As for myself, I'm a tournament gamer, 40k. I've been to two North European GTs so far, and a few other tournaments as well. I'm playing Necromunda, BFG and thinking of starting a WH Fantasy army, though I have a hard time deciding on which. :)

Lady's Champion
31-12-2005, 15:52
I am a female player, and have only ever been into a GW to play once, ever

immortal99
31-12-2005, 16:47
Why didn't you go again? Then again I don't go often, very rarely infact but thats because I'm not old enough to drive and have enough people to play locally anyway. I've seen quite a few female gamers. Their used to be one at our primary school (when I went to one).

The Judge
31-12-2005, 17:41
I find the female gamers at my store tend to be very good painters - is this true in other stores?

:0)
31-12-2005, 17:47
All female here.

Baggers
31-12-2005, 17:52
All female here.

Nothing surprising about that

I have a friend who is a female gamer. (that came out wrong) and I have seen several come through Warhammer World who are female espically the ten year old who managed to beat Allessio with good tatics.

Neknoh
31-12-2005, 18:27
I've met a girl that plays, she is actually starting her second army, chaos, unfortunately, I didn't schedule a game with her and I haven't seen her in the store since that day... pitty

MacVurrich
31-12-2005, 18:51
My wife plays WFB and is also our Club Secretary, My daughter plays 40k, in the club we've got one other lady player (at present).

I know of at least 5 other ladies who I played against at other clubs in the area, with their partners or on their own.

starlight
31-12-2005, 19:13
As several have pointed out the biggest reasons that more girls don't play is the crappy attitudes of boys. When I worked at GW, I had an unofficial mission to appeal to more girls, but GW's focus on the 12 year old male makes that somewhat difficult.:(

Want more girls? Start acting like it. Treat them with respect and play the way *they* want to.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
31-12-2005, 19:31
Well, you should treat female players the way you treat any other player; you should always be a good sport otherwise you'll find yourself with no one to play with, period. It's just a game afterall. When I first started (as is the case with most people), the people I faced always played to the best of their ability (so I took a few thrashings in the beginning). I don't see why we should "go easy" on girls, otherwise how would they learn? There's also always the huge possibility they're gunna beat the snot out of you. Gamers are gamers, it doesn't matter what their anatomy suggests.

starlight
31-12-2005, 19:38
It seems that you have entirely missed the point of my post.:eyebrows:

Never once did I suggest *going easy* on anyone.:eyebrows: What I said was to:


Treat them with respect and play the way *they* want to.

Which is exactly what you should do for *ANY* opponent.:eyebrows: Find out what sort of game they like (WAAC/narrative/theme/etc) and decide if that's what you like. If you're up for that sort of game, then have fun, but if not have the respect to decline and explain what your style is. If they are interested, perhaps you can find some common ground, but don't assume that *anyone* must play that *you* think is *the way*.:eyebrows:


I don't see why we should "go easy" on girls, otherwise how would they learn?

These two concepts have nothing to do with each other.

speedygogo
01-01-2006, 03:19
I agree wholeheartedly with starlight. The issue at hand is sportsmanship. Win, lose or draw being a fun opponent to play against should be important to gamers. More people will play warhammer if they have a good time doing it. A redundent, obvious idea that sadly remains an enigma to many warhammer players.

Takaratie
01-01-2006, 11:53
Me and some mates made an smal gaming comuniti that now consist of 7 people, one of them is an girl ( she is the GF of one of the guys).
She plays HE and I can tell you that aldo she doesnt play often, she know,s how to play.

As some one else posted, woman are ruthless generals.

Kandra
01-01-2006, 12:25
A ruthless general will take every opportunity to crush the enemy. If someone goes easier on me because I'm a girl, tough luck. I won't go easier on them in return.

Personally, I prefer if they didn't though. It's more fun to play if I have a bit of challenge.

Lady's Champion
01-01-2006, 13:36
I don't go to GW Shrewsbury to play anymore because it's full of fat little spoilt 12-year-olds who waddle around with their latest Orge Kingdoms boxed set, citing that they are the best army cos they are big! Yeah!
Oh, and they also obviously have a better knowledge of the rules than you cos even though you may have played since like 6-7 years ago, they started last week and as such are obviously superior.

Cpt. Drill
01-01-2006, 19:04
To be honest I have never played a half decent female opponent... and any that tend to turn up to a games night just relish in the attention given to them by the inhabitants of the lesser gene pools..

But if I ever meet a decent female player then I will try and beat her...





But I play ogres... :cries:

Bingo the Fun Monkey
01-01-2006, 19:11
It seems that you have entirely missed the point of my post.:eyebrows:
My post was not in response to yours because I pretty much agree with yours. There's no need to get defensive.:)

Rabid Bunny 666
01-01-2006, 19:15
well, there was 2 before slough shut down, both daughters of staff or ex- staff

and i'm a male!

more immortals than girls :wtf:

what about immortal girls?

m1s1n
01-01-2006, 19:22
It was a brilliant idea to include "Immortal" as an option, because that way we can really get an accurate poll of WarSeer. Maybe next time we can include "pie" as an option so that we Wastoids will have something to vote for.

Cpt. Drill
01-01-2006, 19:52
umm.. yeah if pie is an option I need to withdraw my vote for male....

MacVurrich
02-01-2006, 14:11
well, there was 2 before slough shut down, both daughters of staff or ex- staff

and i'm a male!

more immortals than girls :wtf:

what about immortal girls?
Do they go to the Sluff Sluggers now?

The Black Knight
02-01-2006, 14:31
I have seen one girl play at GW in newcastle and watched her as her guess range was so poor that her mortar shell landed on her 300 points unit of inner circle knights

shadowprince
02-01-2006, 19:21
immortal was their as an option for people who did not wish to disclose their sex.

starlight
02-01-2006, 19:38
.....her guess range was so poor.......
Which could apply to *ANY* player and has no relationship to the sex of a player.:eyebrows:

Kandra
03-01-2006, 00:34
Which could apply to *ANY* player and has no relationship to the sex of a player.:eyebrows:

Exactly. I personally don't mind people who wants to play against the girl, because they haven't played against one before. That's fine, I often play against guys that I haven't played against before. People that go "Oooh, a girl! I can beat her easily" gets no sympathy for me though.

BTW: Dutch GT 2005. Poor painting score (it was a rushjob, built and painted my whole army in one and a half week), which got me a 35th place overall, out of 107 players. 16th in battlepoints. No, not all girls are bad players.

Crazy Harborc
03-01-2006, 03:17
I know a total of four, yes 4, f.e.m.a.l.e. fantasy players. One plays WHFB only, # 2 & 3 play several systems now, #4 plays everything BUT GW systems these days. Two of them are out of state.

Luke
03-01-2006, 11:53
in my 10-11 years i have never played against a member of the fairer sex, and only ever see 1 in any store at any given time, if that. even GD seems underwhelmed.

The boyz
03-01-2006, 12:18
Like Luke, In my 11 years of doing the hobby. I think I have only ever seen one other girl actually play Warhammer. I think she had a Bretonnian army, I cant quite remember.

Okuto
03-01-2006, 17:02
Actually I've met quite a few, but one thing I have noticed is that their armies are painted so much better than mine's......

They usually play Brets, VC, empire, dark/high/wood elves and sometimes we see the rare lizards here and there. Plus their lists are usually more focused on fluff, their usually not cheesy at all!


Sure maybe I don't agree on what their fielding but it hurts when it looks so much damn better than your stuff......

Gratnuk Ironfist
05-01-2006, 08:59
I've played several females and yes, it's strange that their armies are always better painted than my own. (must be the practice from painting their nails, I know it works for me.:D :D not)

The one at my club, she plays brets, but started with HE she's getting more ruthless and better each game.Then I played one at citygaurd she has HE and Orcs and something else, fought her Orcs and that was an awesome battle, will never forget it :p . Then fought an amercain woman using lizzies and that was okay, I kinda had egg on my face when I remarked on her british accent when it turned out she was an american.:eek:

Smoking Frog
05-01-2006, 09:37
Only one female I've seen play, and she played Dark Elves. My own High Elves gave her a good thrashing the first time, but she was a sweet woman, and a pleasure to play against. I assume it's the same with most other women who play. I've seen her several times at the local store, and each time it's either a solid victory or stalwart retreat for me.

She's good, well mannered, she said she only goes there for a few games, since her own friends don't understand the whole thing, and she has great sportsmanship too. A rare sight indeed to see a good looking woman the same as ones own age who enjoys a hobby many believe is for kids (she paints quite well, apparently the Dark Elves appeal to her tastes, but I chose not to delve too deeply...).

A rare sight indeed...

Kandra
05-01-2006, 12:10
I've played several females and yes, it's strange that their armies are always better painted than my own. (must be the practice from painting their nails, I know it works for me.:D :D not)

I don't paint my nails, I don't use makeup, rarely use perfume at all.

On the other hand, I'm pretty darn good at 40k, can write a mean shellscript one-liner, know my way around assault rifles and AT-4s, and... well, some people claim I'm an artist. ;)

Lord Anathir
06-01-2006, 02:20
wow...a grand total of 4 girls. thats more then i expected actually.

Gratnuk Ironfist
06-01-2006, 06:42
wow...a grand total of 4 girls. thats more then i expected actually.

That have posted or known to play?

Drunken Rico
06-01-2006, 10:55
Have to agree about the painting standard - there was a lady who occasionally went to the same gaming club as me in London, who had the best painted Bret Army I've ever seen.
Including the ones in their army book and in WD.

Is it possible that they can resist the "must-own-everything" urge, and so buy one army and paint it?

Donir
06-01-2006, 11:09
That have posted or known to play?


That have answered the poll.

I met one once, and her painting skills were amazing, but her strategies on the field of battle were a bit daft. Too good at painting :rolleyes: Devil magic, I say! Devil Magic!

speedygogo
06-01-2006, 11:53
The must own everything urge sure gets me. I have something like ten 2000+ pt armies and lots of unpainted figures. In life the is something for everybody. Warhammer is for people who want to have everything. My only regret is that I can't play all my armies simultaneously.

Drunken Rico
06-01-2006, 12:07
>>My only regret is that I can't play all my armies simultaneously.<<

Only cos those damn machines pick the wrong 6 numbers every Wednesday, Friday and Saturday.

"lemme see.... Ferrari...big house...swimming pool....Rolls Royce...Michelle Wild....30ft gaming table..."

barbarella
06-01-2006, 12:24
I'm a girl and i play at games workshop every week, I have a chaos army with a big stompy demon prince.

Scabby
06-01-2006, 15:19
Been playing for a long time and I've only ever seen 3. One of them a good player but none of them great painters. Currently there is one regular in our local group and her husband plays too. Considering the atmosphere on game nights I don't really blame them.

Gratnuk Ironfist
06-01-2006, 19:16
Was chaos your first army barbarella?

kingofthewoods
07-01-2006, 10:42
I know two girls that play 40k.

Lady Bastet
08-01-2006, 02:03
Anyone would think this was UFO hunting, trust me your less likely to find female gamers with threads going "omg are they out there" "yes I saw one but the army said it as a weather balloon"

Silly threads.

Gratnuk Ironfist
08-01-2006, 06:42
Ha,ha,ha,ha:p I guess you have a point, but how many female friends do you know/have that are comfartable in a hall filled with pimpled male students or married sweaty men and still have fun?

barbarella
08-01-2006, 07:50
Yes chaos was my first army, but i'm also doing ogre kingdoms and dark elves, they just aren't finished yet so i can't use them in store, i also have salamanders for 40k.

Galonthar
08-01-2006, 13:26
hmz......

I`m male,... and don`t know any female gamers,.... or at least, I`m not entirely sure... there are a couple of females at my larp-group who in any case paint it (for their brothers),... and I wouldn`t be surprised if they`d play themselves too :eyebrows: they surely aren`t averse to the massacre`s involved in wargaming :D

I`d don`t visit my GW frequently enough to know if there are any there....

Lady Bastet
08-01-2006, 16:02
Ha,ha,ha,ha:p I guess you have a point, but how many female friends do you know/have that are comfartable in a hall filled with pimpled male students or married sweaty men and still have fun?
Most of us who remain in the hobby develop counter measures to such issues; it is this factor that keeps fewer women from taking up the hobby, or in some cases continuing to play.

Gratnuk Ironfist
08-01-2006, 18:56
In what way is that?

Icarus
09-01-2006, 02:21
I know of only 2 girls who play, a regular at my GW who is very cool and friendly, and the girlfriend of a guy I play regularly. I think it is a real shame that more women aren't into the game, but I think its pretty obvious why they get put off.

Lady Bastet
09-01-2006, 20:24
In what way is that?
Why should we have to develop emotional counter measures to persue of all things a hobby?

Gratnuk Ironfist
10-01-2006, 02:31
Why should we have to develop emotional counter measures to persue of all things a hobby?

:eek: :eek: You've lost me mate.:eek: :eek:

Bingo the Fun Monkey
10-01-2006, 10:43
:eek:You've lost me mate.:eek:
I think she was referring to the smelly, trenchcoat wearing, dude with food specs in his untrimmed beard sporting an unwashed Iron Maiden T-shirt at worst. Or guys who just act retardedly because they're up against some wierdo with these lumps on their chest. Actually she lost me too...:rolleyes:
EDIT: by the way Iron Maiden is sweet.

Gratnuk Ironfist
11-01-2006, 04:06
EDIT: by the way Iron Maiden is sweet.

Yeah, they're cool, but AC/DC ROCK.:D :D

Eldacar
11-01-2006, 05:00
Why should we have to develop emotional counter measures to persue of all things a hobby?
I've got to admit, you lost me too on that one. Of course, a possible reason to develop countermeasures might have something to do with how there are few girls who actively seem to play videogames as well, because it is seen as a "guy" thing. But then, playing with toy soldiers is as much a children thing as a guy thing anyway.:D

Bingo the Fun Monkey
11-01-2006, 05:07
Guys are kids anyway.

Major Defense
11-01-2006, 14:53
The real question about girls playing WHFB (or any WH game for that matter) is whether they're cute enough to soothe us into their house rules and/or whether or not they're just another pathetic goth chic.

It's an architectural style and your boyfriend's name is not Raven!! :rolleyes:

Kandra
11-01-2006, 15:09
"I saw a guy in the gaming store the other day. He painted well, but he sucked at playing. No sense of tactics at all. He was really cute though. I'd like to invite him into our gaming group, nudge nudge, know what I mean?"

Gratnuk Ironfist
11-01-2006, 19:09
Kandra.:eek: :eek: Lets not turn this into a relationship gossip thread.:D
If that was the case for me (i.e. saw a awesome chick playing WHFB) I'd play against her until we had a reasonable history and then invite her for house games. That way your away from club and can actually have proper conversations.

Or, we dudes who are uncalled for would just get g/f's and introduce them to WHFB that way.

Gratnuk Ironfist
11-01-2006, 19:14
Whoa:confused: :D :eek: :confused: Where is this thread going?

Kandra
11-01-2006, 23:55
Nah, I was just illustrating what we girl gamers have to deal with. Often in cruder terms.

Gratnuk Ironfist
12-01-2006, 06:40
Fair enough, but all women are more complicated than their male counterparts, so I reckon we leave it there.Alright with you?

Are more girls intorduced to this hobby by other girls or by male family members and friends?

Kandra
12-01-2006, 11:17
Usually by male friends or family members. There aren't all that many girl gamers out there, I'm afraid.

Minister
12-01-2006, 13:42
Met about half a dozen 40K/WHF female gamers, actually know all of one.

One of them had her Deathwing terminator army ruthlessly crushed by my Gretchen horde in a rather ammusing game, but that's neither here nor there.

D3N14M
12-01-2006, 13:49
Well, here at Spain is a lot of Girls playing WH, but most of them play Confrontation, 'cause they like more the style of the frenchs :P. I belive is because of they boyfriends, 'cause all of that girls is or was the girlfriend of a player :P

P.D.: I can't belive that we have more Inmortals than Women in the forum XD

Velkyn Kyil
14-01-2006, 01:27
Seems Warhammer has more Immortals playing it than Girls... how cute.. :)

William_De_Rule
14-01-2006, 02:02
I've met four women who played GW games; one who played Tomb Kings, one who played Eldar in BFG and a mother and daughter team, the mother played Orks and the daughter had Dark Eldar, complete with fighting pit terrain with dismembered limbs :D

It's kind of sad that I there's so few I can remember them individually.
Pah, people talk about postmodernism but playing with toy soldiers is still a 'gendered' hobby :rolleyes:

Ash Maker
14-01-2006, 14:56
I'm female, and i've NEVER played at GW. I get looked at oddly enough when i go in to buy stuff to put me off for life. I actually never go in at all now.

I'm also NOT the boyfriend of a gamer.

Or a 'Dirty Goff'.

I do however, paint my nails occassionally, and i wear makeup when i'm going out to a pub/club. I don't think i'm particularly tomboyish, i like to look nice but i don't go overboard.

I don't advertise that i'm a wargamer, but if i meet a guy who plays i'll tell him i do too, but you lot don't usually tell chicks that you play. :p

Gratnuk Ironfist
14-01-2006, 19:29
I don't want you to take this in a bad way, but good on ya. You know what you like doing and do it no matter what others think or say. Now do you play fanatsy and are you a kiwi?

Ash Maker
23-01-2006, 14:38
I certainly do play fantasy! 40K just isn't as much fun.

No, i'm not a kiwi. I live in the UK. It's a lot colder and i can justify spending my days indoors playing games a lot easier ;)

Lady Bastet
23-01-2006, 15:55
The real question about girls playing WHFB (or any WH game for that matter) is whether they're cute enough to soothe us into their house rules and/or whether or not they're just another pathetic goth chic.

It's an architectural style and your boyfriend's name is not Raven!! :rolleyes:

Erm what? What does that have to do with anything? So your saying your only going to listen to a woman if she is attractive?

No offence but you do seem rather like the sort who should be happy with anything he gets.

Sam
23-01-2006, 18:23
I think she was referring to the smelly, trenchcoat wearing, dude with food specs in his untrimmed beard sporting an unwashed Iron Maiden T-shirt at worst. Or guys who just act retardedly because they're up against some wierdo with these lumps on their chest. Actually she lost me too...:rolleyes:
EDIT: by the way Iron Maiden is sweet.


LOL...I think that keeps a lot of people from playing, not just women. I hardly play at game stores for that reason among others. Not sure why (maybe the escapism aspect), but this hobby and role playing seem to draw in a large number of borderline socially retarded individuals. I think if the stereotypical game store guy (like the comic guy in the Simpson’s) didn’t make up such a large percentage of the population more women and men would take up the hobby. Oh well, nature of the beast and all….

Gratnuk Ironfist
23-01-2006, 19:26
I certainly do play fantasy! 40K just isn't as much fun.

No, i'm not a kiwi. I live in the UK. It's a lot colder and i can justify spending my days indoors playing games a lot easier ;)

Yep, I hear that.:p :p Did you stumble upon WHFB or do most people have a kind of a rough idea about it in UK?

Kandra
23-01-2006, 20:26
The thing is, though, the stereotypical game store guy doesn't hit on the guys quite as often.

Ash Maker
24-01-2006, 11:21
At Ironfist: Yeah i had a vague idea since school when a lot of the boys in my class played, but stereotypically, it was the boys you DIDN'T want to get to know who were playing it so i chalked it down as childish rubbish basically. It wasn't until years later when i grew up myself and realised that not everything has to be a popularity contest that i really got into it.

I agree to a point with what you are saying Sam, however, i can understand why 'socially retarded individuals' would be attracted to a hobby like WH. It's great because it allows them time to spend on their own painting models (and a great excuse not to be out meeting people) and also is a great opportunity to meet people with whom they have some common ground (wargaming). It just makes it a little less scary for the average social retard.

On a related point, the game store guy may not hit on the guys quite so often, but the smell of his body odour lingers just as long in a guys nostrils. :cheese:

Warsmith Strader
24-01-2006, 16:50
The thing is, though, the stereotypical game store guy doesn't hit on the guys quite as often.

Let hope not anyway:eek:

But I've known a few GW female players... most mainly play female themed armies- All female dark eldar army or even dark elves or the SoB.
All of them do quite well game wise and damn good painters...

BTW I'm male also! still have the third leg and its not a chaos mutation either!:angel: :eek: :evilgrin:

Gratnuk Ironfist
25-01-2006, 00:39
That's a fair point you have there Ash Maker *Ouch*:eek: , that WH helps people with allowing some common ground with others they don't really know, but know about the hobby. I mean take me for example, when I landed here in NZ from South Africa I didn't know anyone, but because I found people who played WH I had that vital first step towards making friends. Even though I have plenty of other friends who don't play WH now, that's only cause they play paintball or something else that I was able to relate with them as well.

Skinfull
25-01-2006, 12:42
I dunno about all these stereotypical "female gamers" but I've been playing videogames and programming since I first got my speccy in 83. I was a huge D&D fan and played WAY too much Risk to be sociable when I was a kid. (Sadly I'm still partial to a game of Risk...)

I just started playing 40K and WFB last summer. I'm not sure how I never played before but I'm loving it at the moment. And yeah those guys who said that the girls dont like walking into the GWS to be stared down by various male players are right. It's fairly intimidating to walk into the store and have eveyone all but gasp at your presence. Then if I dare ask a question of offer an opinion it's met by stunned silence! How can this girl know what a necron is???? Thats the ******** that turns me off. I dont mind the aggression or competition. Thats what I'm there for! To Battle! Not tea and crumpets!

I'll sit for hours meticulously painting and sculpting models and terrain and leave an active battletable running for days! I'll stay in the living room over a full weekend playing Battlefield 2 or WoW on the PC without needing to speak to anyone or thing! So what if I'm a chick! Who cares! As long as I can play!:rolleyes:

Sigma
25-01-2006, 14:31
Every time this thread emerges, brought forth from the mind from some hopeful young lad, I smile in regret;) It's an....interesting subject, I suppose, but the results will always, always be the same in the end....female wargamers, in whatever form be it painting-oriented, army collecting-focused, etc., will be heavily, astronomically outnumbered by males, and the wasted, degenerate creatures that often give the decent, while still not entirely normal, at least washed and groomed to a decent standard, wargamers a horrible and apparently unshakeable reputation. Tis sad, it's true....

The truth is that monsters exist, and that the rest of the world still only doesn't believe because they only ever lurk in dingy comic book stores, or occasionally take up the limited space, making it all the more limited with the large bulk of extra flab many of their ilk carry about their horrid bodies. I won't even start on the stench and other hygiene related burns on the socially deprived. I'm sure we're all familiar with their kind, and rightfully hate them for what they've caused us ourselves to become, being nearly as hated as them if our identities are discovered....

Etcetra ad nauseum....we all know the breed of, look....I'm going to be bluntly honest for one moment here, and most likely end up sounding like an elitist jerk, at best. However, one of the reasons there aren't more females getting involved in GW stores is, in at least some part to these monsters. Now, I've a personal tale to tell, and perhaps it will enlighten some of you as to why I have such a burning dislike of the wretched, filthy, sub-humans that taint the ranks of noble and good wargamers like most of us here! Behold, and listen....

My girlfriend is a lovely young lady. Yes, she has all the flaws of her gender in the exact same was as I have all the flaws of mine. I hope I'm not coming off as offensive to anyone with any of that, I mean...come on, guys and girls in general each have their gender-related ways and mannerisms. Exceptions have always and will indeed always exist, but for the sake of argument and to make it through this story, try and understand for the time being.

I consider her pretty open-minded in a lot of ways, but never did I think she'd show an interest in possibly starting the GW hobby. I mean, we were together for nearly a whole year before I ended up just going into the 40K background one evening. I forget what we could have been talking about that could have possibly formed a segue into talk of the Primarchs and such with my girlfriend, but it happened.
To my surprise, and great joy, she seemed to actually find the fluff quite interesting. I was also pleased to see was impressed, rather than disturbed, by my seeming wealth of knowledge in regards to this fictional universe.
Like I said, she's always been pretty open.

Later on, I think it was something like a couple months down the road, we decided to go to the GW store that's about 45 minutes away from where we live to check things out. She was actually interested in checking out the game itself, after enjoying the background! Imagine my hope and excitement. I never would have though this girl to be interested in such thing as 40K....I mean, she's fairly anti-war and violence and all that, so I assumed a game almost entirely revolving around such things wouldn't suit her tastes all that much, regardless of the fact it was fictional. However, once again I was impressed by how wrong I was, and my hope grew that we could be a wargaming couple, and be able to have conversations about all of it and...oh, the possibilities were endless. Deep down in the darkest, most hidden corner of heart, the nerd part that I had kept under such strict and tight control could....finally, after all this time, be released...allbeit I promised myself that if she went for it and wanted to start collecting, I'd let it out slowly.

So we walked in and things seemed pleasant enough at first. The staff didn't seem surprised that a girl walked in the store at all. I'll assume they must have recently seen one of the thousands of females that live in the city walking by on the street earlier that day, and as such, they were a little less skittish than normal. Good start, I think to myself. We looked around for a little while, talking about the different armies and just about the hobby in general, and she was seeming impressed by the depth of it all....I decided to close the deal, I'd take her back to the games room to watch a game being played.

And that's where it fell to pieces. We should have never gone back to that dark, horrible room. How was I to know there was a gaggle of semi-human, ranging in age from...well, I'm now informed that adults can, quite regularly, get acne, so the age range could have been anywhere from 12-78. So hideous and nearly deformed were these twisted parody of man, I cringed at the sight of them, and knew I was doomed, and that my poor, locked up inner nerd would stay as such for eternity.

However, to my surprise, the complete and utterly total ugliness of these poor chaps didn't throw her off. At this point I was starting to wonder about her a little bit, but decided if she could take their foul company, then so could I. I was doubly impressed that, unlike many males AND females would have done, she didn't turn right back around and walk out based solely on their appearance, no matter how unreasonably haggard.

No, what made us walk out, with me in quite a rage, was the ABSOLUTE RUDENESS and near-CONTEMPT these...."boys/men/whatever" showed to my girlfriend when she politely asked a question about the game. She even waited to ask her question during a non-eventful part of one of their turns, as I told her we shouldn't interupt, telling her when it was most likely okay to ask at that point.
I won't get into exactly what the vile creatures said to her, but needless to say, they were very, very belligerant and even hateful seeming of her, and really never ended up bothering to answer any of her angelic, innocent questions.....It was just so entirely uncalled for, that level of dislike and obvious rudeness for her from these scum, and worse yet scum that had indeed proven themselves as such, shocked me to the point I didn't even process what they were on about until a few seconds later. And I was instantly furious and ummm....we ended up leaving the store, and the group of sub-human trash was allowed to stay and finish their game.

Needless to say, my girlfriend was not impressed. Of course, she was a little angry at having been so rudely treated from people that she had never even seen before, let alone had a conversation with...people she was willing to give a chance, despite their outward appearance, and treat them like human beings...she ended up just more confused as to why someone would treat someone like that? And more sadly, she wondered if she did anything wrong? And even writing this now makes me incredibly angry and just....well, quite honestly, murderous.

I have a totally irrational hatred of this type of social outcast now, which was caused by that incident and incidents in the past. Whatever their reasons, whether it be some past incidents with females or some other such ego-scarring event, there is no excuse in the world for how they acted. It almost turned me off of playing 40K anymore, so you can imagine my girlfriend's decision in regards to starting the game....

Yeah....I no longer have any sympathy for the plight of the freakish, none whatsoever. Their dirty and entirely shabby and there's absolutely NO excuse for it. If they can afford GW products, I sincerely doubt they are poor to the level of homelessness....for god's sake, I just don't get it. Why would anyone waste pity on someone too lazy and uncaring(of themself, and others) to even give themself some basic grooming at least once a day....they disgust me completely and I really see them as something not quite human in ways....
even still, as much as that incredibly negative experience has soured me on anyone like that, I still have enough common respect for anything living, even if its repugnant in nearly every way, to give them the basic levels of courtesy and, well, respect that they really dont deserve sometimes.

I've never met a ruder, more ignorant, and socially inept group of people than this sort. I'm trying to say, in regards to the topic of this thread, that the problem lies in many of the more...repulsive gamers themselves. And they don't even care about more people, male or female joining the fold, you know? I just can't pity a creature that obviously only cares about himself, and even that is questionable in certain ways.


Sorry about the rant, but ummm....I truly have a major issue with the way some "people" out there who happen to play wargames, misrepresent so many of the rest of us....yeah, honestly, these beasts are unfit for any woman to speak to anyway...and tend to either be overly affectionate and often rather obvious with their intentions, or overly hostile for some reason or another, that really doesn't matter.

Okay, now i'm angry....LOL. Time to stop writing

Edit: After reading that, it could possibly seem as though I'm claiming these wastes of skin were coming on to my girlfriend in a....adult manner. Nonono, actually the opposite....it seemed as though they were literally *disgusted* she was female, and talk down to her as if she were a complete idiot, or attempted, having a very wheezy voice and oddly limited vocabulary....although that might be explained the gigantic secondary chin that hid his neck from the world, and the fact that the sheer size of it prevented him from pronouncing quite a few words, thanks to restrictions made on how far his mouth could open before being stopped by the jelliful mound of double chin.

Icarus
25-01-2006, 21:12
I agree with you to some extent, having had some less-than-pleasant experiences of this type myself. However I feel bound to point out that whilst there are gamers of the fat unwashed and downright rude variety, you shouldn't make judgements about people until you've at least talked to them. Some may appear at first to be completely unapproachable, but turn out to perfectly nice people and fun to play. Equally there will be people who do wash and take care of themselves etc. who are still complete ********s.

I'm not saying that what you experienced isn't appalling, and I strongly object to anyone who treats others like that, especially if its out of some misogynistic idiocy. Just try not to let it ruin your experiences with other gamers.

bl4ck0pz
25-01-2006, 22:30
Don't know of any girls who wargame. Wouldn't mind meeting any of them either.

Lady Bastet
26-01-2006, 05:33
I think Games Workshop bring a lot of this on themselves, I never recall seeing a battle report where one of the participants was female, nor have I ever known one write an article on something other than painting.

White Dwarf itself makes us seem elusive and mysterious.

Personally I think its more of an oversight than anything else and its not as if sales would really improve as a result.

Gratnuk Ironfist
26-01-2006, 08:38
Sigma: The good book says "Judge not least ye be Judged", so yes they were in the wrong to be so rude and had it been me I would have returned the next day and thrashed each of them in a game while your girlffriend watched, but that's me. Yet, to carry such utter loathing and hatred to people you barely know and only met once you only hurt yourself. While the offenders carry on their glutton laced life not caring of how they insulted your ladies honour.

My regards to you and your good lady *Drinking smilie* May her next venture into the world of fantasy bear ripe and happy rewards. (Unless your facing me on the battlefield.:D GO DWARFS.:D )

Thranduil
26-01-2006, 23:28
I personally have never had any occurrence of the abovementioned bitterness toward the fairer sex... In fact, my fiance and I are building an army together... I introduced her to the hobby 6 months ago and asked if she'd be interested in getting into it with me. She consented and helped in the choosing of what army we would play: either Ogres, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, and Wood Elves. We collectively decided on Wood Elves, as I wanted a force that was fast and mobile, but wasn't completely composed of T4 units (yay forest spirits), while she simply chose them above all the other forces for what I've come to believe as purely aesthetic reasons: in her words, Lizardmen are lizards, Ogres resemble the unsavoury chaps playing Battle Tech in the corner, and Tomb Kings are, well, dead. Elves on the other hand - specifically wood elves - are pretty.

Anyway, at first she was just into the painting and modeling aspect of the hobby. Then after she came and watched me play a few games, she really got into it. Now she comes to every match, co-commands our troops, points out worthy targets for our waywatchers during the deployment phase, and rolls a lot of 6's.

I do agree with the overall idea of this thread that there aren't many female players out there. To further exemplify this, the gaming club that we belong to consists of about 40 people... and my fiance's the only woman among them all.

*Edit: I just asked her if she's ever had any unsavoury experiences with anyone in our gaming club, to which she replied that the only thing that annoys her is the other members constant attempts to convince her to start an army of her own. And when they flirt with her. Other than the odd ogoling, they treat and talk to her like any other human being.

ROCKY
27-01-2006, 00:24
Well spoken Gratnuk, your words of piety would melt even an uptight chaos dwarf's heart. i would be honored to face such a hearty dwarf in combat (um by the way, do you use guns? (shiver)).

hiram
27-01-2006, 01:08
Sigma: The good book says "Judge not least ye be Judged", so yes they were in the wrong to be so rude and had it been me I would have returned the next day and thrashed each of them in a game while your girlffriend watched, but that's me. Yet, to carry such utter loathing and hatred to people you barely know and only met once you only hurt yourself. While the offenders carry on their glutton laced life not caring of how they insulted your ladies honour.

Thats his girl though. I've been known to ruin another guys date cause he was rude to my fiance on the walk. I know the good book says that but dammit we were made to take care and protect women, (serioslly, they still have our rib and want it back).

On the other hand, being a Workshop staff member I kick guys out of the shop that are jerks to my customers, their girls or other players.

Result:
A very polite AND CLEAN hobby community in my shop.

My opinon you should have brought to the managers attention.

Gratnuk Ironfist
27-01-2006, 04:56
Well spoken Gratnuk, your words of piety would melt even an uptight chaos dwarf's heart. i would be honored to face such a hearty dwarf in combat (um by the way, do you use guns? (shiver)).

Nay only a unit of 15 thunderers and maybe two more missile units, in my army I aim for the CC units to outnumber the shooting ones by at least 2:1.

Hiram: I should know about the rib, my name is Adam.:D . Well done on such a wise work ethic it shall be rewarded in more ways than you know, though not always before your eyes.

I raise my finally dwarf wrought tankard to you, for in this the 21'st centuary it is uncommon to find men of chivalry and HONOUR (Seen the "Last Samurai"? I wish more people lived for honour ,truth and well basically with better manners nowadays)and I believe that if we encourage it in fellow players whether large and rude or thin and ignorant we'll see an increase in the stronger sex within our hobby.;)

ROCKY
28-01-2006, 04:08
Aye! I shall flock to your banner noble Gratnuk!

McNuggets
28-01-2006, 20:17
Ive seen quite a lot of female gamers. And about them not being able to play my gf trashes me evry time i play her. (that came out wrong);)

ROCKY
28-01-2006, 20:28
I have seen some when I was in Scottland, but have never had the privilage to face any. I have heard from my friends though that the female players hide their tactics and strategies better. Oh how I would love to face some truly tactical people!

Gratnuk Ironfist
29-01-2006, 01:08
Aye rkattan, facing off against a female is a very unique experience. Most of them turn up at large tourni's so try finding a few there. What army you use, besides chaos?

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 04:35
Why hellow my dwarf friend!!! Gratnuk iam glad you brought that up I play Evil Empire (mostly blackish cavalry and cannons), and just recently converted because of you to dwarfism. I found out that I had a lot in common with those hardy people, and my favorite trick that I like to use is the Miners' underground advance. Dwarves are a little tricky to play with especially since they can no longer move and fire.

Kandra
29-01-2006, 18:01
There's been at least one female in every tournament I've attended...

Cpt. Drill
29-01-2006, 18:12
The last 5 posts sound alot like people think that women are mystical creatures which are only seen on the darkest of nights on haunted moores...

But there is nothing different between female and male players... although most female players have better personal hygene!

ROCKY
29-01-2006, 18:25
Well I am from a place where everything is restricted, so actually they are like enchanted fabeled damsels/warriors/generals. I would very much like to compete against them. I find it fun to see all races/genders interact and hang out together. I know, i am too "soft" to be a chaos player. "sniff" i am a disgrace to Khorne....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

McNuggets
29-01-2006, 19:57
The last 5 posts sound alot like people think that women are mystical creatures which are only seen on the darkest of nights on haunted moores...

But there is nothing different between female and male players... although most female players have better personal hygene!
May I inquire as how you got that from my post:eyebrows: (just wondering)

Gratnuk Ironfist
04-02-2006, 06:12
Well I am from a place where everything is restricted, so actually they are like enchanted fabeled damsels/warriors/generals. I would very much like to compete against them. I find it fun to see all races/genders interact and hang out together. I know, i am too "soft" to be a chaos player. "sniff" i am a disgrace to Khorne....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Nah, your'e not going soft, just becomming a proper dwarf no problem there.
I myself have never viewed the feamle player as mystical, just another chance to improve my skills and have fun at the same time.

szlachcic
06-02-2006, 16:36
I have played against a female in a 40k tourny. She was playing with a Witch Hunters army (almost exclusively made of sisters, big suprise). She was a nice opponent, but had a annoying habit of calling over her husband for rules questions when she didn't believe me. She was actually a pretty good player though and solidly beat me.

I have gotten my girlfriend to play a few games with me, but I don't think she understands the game very well and has any interest to get into it. She does enjoy painting models from time to time though.

Azazel
06-02-2006, 16:51
Back when I had a regular group there was one female player. She played both 40K and Fantasy. Could take the rest of us to town when it came to painting. Didn't fair as well when we actually played though. :p

Gratnuk Ironfist
07-02-2006, 08:13
Yeah, we got one at my old club as well.

Kandra
07-02-2006, 09:06
And once again this turns into girlspotting 101. :)

Cyel
07-02-2006, 10:08
Actually our club (not realy a club as we do not accept any new members form outside, rather a gaming group of friends who go to the tournaments together as Black Company) has almost as many female members as male ones (4 girls, 5 boyz ). Three of the four girls actively play and paint their armies, and even take part in tournaments (sometimes only "cheerleading" but often playing as well ), although they much prefer more casual gaming at home.
Here are some photos from tournaments -I am the red haired guy. You can usually see us in Black Company T-shirts

Here is the main force of Black Company at Eastern Europe Grand Tournament
5602

And here the girls are observing (with more or less interest....:p ) my game against Lizardmen
5603

This is another battle We play at doubles tournament (I am playing with the black-haired friend of mine, while the other Black Company pair is watching the game , after finishing theirs)
5604

And this photo is from our (me and the girls) vacation at a coastal village -I was hoping we would go out more often, as weather was very nice... but all they wanted was painting (well, almost ........... : p ), and I had to stay to tutor their progress...
5605

Generally girls at Polish tournaments are not an unlikely sight. They are, sadly, still in large minority though... The tournament scene would be probably much more friendly if it was a bit less...testosterone saturated ;)

Steel_Legion
07-02-2006, 10:10
So far, i have seen 2 girls at my local club, both play magic TG, and one also plays tomb kings, never played her yet however

Satan
07-02-2006, 13:49
Well, I've met them, they're out there. But it's much easier to find girls who role-play or are into computer games. My gf is a Baldur's gate freak.

A little off-topic:

Would you consider a wargames interest to be attractive in a relation with a partner of the opposite sex (or the same, whatever floats your boat)? How much? Would you consider leaving your current partner? (I know most people will say 'no' to the last question, but I'm just interested to see what others would say.)

Myself, I'm fairly certain the thought would pop into my head. Yeah, I know, I'm non-deserving, but the relation with this hobby somehow goes beyond love. There has been some vague discussions about me caring more for the hobby than her, which isn't really it, I just like to paint alot, and have tons of stuff to do, which she, in opposition doesn't and why am I disclosing things about my private life on a wargaming forum?

Gratnuk Ironfist
08-02-2006, 05:38
why am I disclosing things about my private life on a wargaming forum?

Cause we're more than just a forum, we're your mates.:D

Honor Bound
08-02-2006, 11:55
I'm a guy what can I say

Smoking Frog
08-02-2006, 12:22
why am I disclosing things about my private life on a wargaming forum?

We all love you Satan, that's why.

raygungothic
08-02-2006, 14:19
Well, I've met them, they're out there. But it's much easier to find girls who role-play or are into computer games. My gf is a Baldur's gate freak.

Definitely much, much easier to find female roleplayers. I know only one serious female wargamer, easily ten or more female roleplayers.



A little off-topic:

Would you consider a wargames interest to be attractive in a relation with a partner of the opposite sex (or the same, whatever floats your boat)? How much? Would you consider leaving your current partner? (I know most people will say 'no' to the last question, but I'm just interested to see what others would say.)

Myself, I'm fairly certain the thought would pop into my head. Yeah, I know, I'm non-deserving, but the relation with this hobby somehow goes beyond love. There has been some vague discussions about me caring more for the hobby than her, which isn't really it, I just like to paint alot, and have tons of stuff to do, which she, in opposition doesn't and why am I disclosing things about my private life on a wargaming forum?

In answer to your question, if I'm to take it as a survey: Were I looking for someone, and were to meet a woman who was great in every other respect and happened to be a wargamer - fantastic! I'd be well pleased. But they'd have to be right in every other way too, I don't think it could make up for a clash of temperament or attract me to someone I wouldn't go out with anyway. It would be cool, but ain't that important.

Would I leave someone for a wargamer? No. But there always needs to be a balance between shared time and pursuing-own-interests time, and an irreconcilable mismatch on that front would probably drive me away. I will compromise a lot, but only so far.

There's always plan b - encourage her own pursuit of something creative, in any direction that happens to suit her, so she's got something to do while you paint figs - or anything else you do for that matter. Most people can enjoy immersing themselves in one or another pursuit, they just need to find the right thing. Once they do, it's easy to sort the your-time/our-time thing out with only a reasonable amount of compromise.

Well, works for me anyway!

Gen.Steiner
10-02-2006, 01:28
Male, and have seen a few female wargamers (ZOMG Gurl spottin 101!!!1! :p). Never played any though, at least not yet.

Many moons ago now, a friend and I were sitting in GW Slough (my then regular haunt) painting, when in came a regular and his girlfriend. He left to get some nosh, so, of course... she was immediately subjected to, essentially, heckling from the other two regulars in the shop - both of whom were, shall we say, not exactly Greek gods - but which was led by the most obnoxious twerp to frequent the place, while the smaller one, much like a Grot, would go along with Da Boss's actions.

Normally I stay well out of stuff that's not my affair, but after about three minutes of this, with the girl getting more and more uncomfortable and her boyfriend still not back, my mate chirps up with the immortal line:

"Stop drooling, fat boy, you'll get disease all over the place."

Biggest grin ever appears on girl's face. Second regular points and laughs at Da Boss. I nearly pissed myself laughing, and Da Boss went from mysoginistic MCP to egoless ********. About this time the boyfriend showed up, and we left shortly thereafter.

That short anecdote is kind of a counterpart to the ranting diatribe against the portlier, smellier members of our kind posted earlier. I don't really like 'em either, but that's a personal thing, I don't like smelly people regardless of hobby or gender. Wash, damnit, wash, it's not hard!

Apart from that, would I consider wargaming an attractive quality? Yes, but then there are many, many other things that come first. What's a more attractive thing is simply having an interest, be that skeet shooting, ice hockey, or pushing toy soldiers around a tabletop.

Two final points. One of the posts said something along the lines of "male wargamers tend not to advertise the fact", I take issue with that. I usually drop it into the conversation with anyone I've just met as follows: "I'm a wargamer, sad, I know, but what can I say? I like toy soldiers is all."

Lastly, and I mean it as this is a long post, what would be wrong with the game store guy hitting on the guys? Answer: Seriously, in all the GWs and indy game stores I've been in (e.g. a lot), I have seen one guy I'd have liked to go to bed with. One. So any game store guy hitting on a guy in a GW shop would have to have spectacularly bad taste IMHO.:D

snook
10-02-2006, 03:46
Male :)

most girls i know who have anything to do with it like the painting side of things and thats about it. sad but overall true I guess. this said, I find females to pick up the finer painting skills faster then most guys do to start off, so it's a knack they have I guess :D

Kandra
10-02-2006, 12:06
Well, I can happily say that the unwashed, overweight male gamer stereotype doesn't hold either. In fact, in our gaming club, there's easily half a dozen droolworthy guys around. I should know, I started dating one of them. ;)

Lockjaw
10-02-2006, 14:25
from what i've seen at local gaming stores (before they all closed down or stopped carrying GW product) it seems more females play WFB than 40k, or at least around here. Last time I played at the Saratoga Sci-Fi Shop (before it shrank down to a closet space) I played skaven against a girl playing Brettonians riding zebra's for some reason (she had some background about them crusading in the southlands or something)

Pravus
10-02-2006, 14:48
There was someone at the last GT heat who several people thought was female until they went into the men's toilet.

ernyroamer
10-02-2006, 16:37
My two pennies, (including the same advice I give to me mates when they complain about not meeting enough lasses).

First off I've never really meet a female gamer. Seen a few at conventions but never meet them. I would certainly never have dated a fellow gamer. I mean what kind of woman would be interested in me after seeing me in all my awesome geeky pride! After seeing that and still being interested in me? I mean what kind of person would be that demented?

I think its healthy to get together with the lads away from the lasses, put on the maiden and motorhead T-shirts, crank up the sabbath and generally act like kids again.

Should we change to be more inclusive? Well I'd never dissuade anyone from joining us. Everybody is welcome but if you don't like our culture....an it is a culture. Hammer with out the rock, beer and general bullishness would be like banggers without mash, fish without chips, curry without beer.

Not that the wife doesn't like that sort of thing, she loves LoTR apparently used to play D&D before I knew her, I guess she just ain't that interested in spending several hours with dumb boys and their toys. Cool... after a hard week at work a bit of mate time is a necessity. I still spend far more time with her than playing games. I think she's glad to get rid of me for an evening. Anyhow we've been together very happily for 9 years so we're getting something right.

As to the problem of gamers meeting girls.....it may sound superficial but you have to raise your game. If your a fat, smelly metal head with nothing to talk about but games...well you ain't going to do to well. Lose some weight, wash, get rid of the trench coat (nobody but nobody looks good in a trench coat no matter what your own eyes tell you)and cut the hair, I know, I know I loved my own locks but cutting them got me so much more attention. Oh and most importantly read about other stuff and do other stuff.

If you can talk about science, politics, art, history you will hold the attention of exactly the sort of lass you'd all be wanting. Honestly relationships is adult stuff, don't mix it with the kid stuff.

My two pennies any way.