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archonbrujah
31-12-2005, 02:17
Hello all,

Someone else has a thread going about flyers and fanatics, and in it it is mentioned about flyers being able to fly over interposing units when they charge. I can find the rule about this no problem, what I can't find is anything that says flyers ignore normal LOS restrictions, like intervening models.

Now truth be told, I've only ever seen flyers charge untis on hills (missile troops and war machines) so I know they can see them with no problem due to the elevated terrain. But what about a flying unit and 2 enemy units, on even level terrain, that the flyer want's to hop the frontal unit, to charge the rear unit, that by normal LOS it cannot see?

Thanks for any help,

Archonbrujah

Victor Romeo
31-12-2005, 03:38
LOS is required to charge. Thus normal sized flyers (Eagles, Fell-Bats, Terradons) cannot fly over a unit to charge another unit at the same height level. Conversely Large Monsters (Dragons, Greater Demons, Griffons) can see over smaller units and can charge another unit at the same height level.

Festus
31-12-2005, 08:44
Hi

This is not the whole truth, actually.

Flyers can indeed fly and charge over interposing units.

The requirement to declare a charge is still to have LoS.

So if the target is visible to at least one of the flyers, the whole unit can charge straight over other models. Even at the same height level.

If the flyers's LoS is *completely* blocked, they may not declare a charge at the target they cannot see, of course.

As V. Romeo pointed out, Large Targets see and can be seen over any interposing models, even other Large Targets.

Greetings
Festus

Tarax
31-12-2005, 09:54
Also note that some flyers, like Flying Units, have 360 degrees LoS, while others, like Great Eagles, have 90.

Griefbringer
31-12-2005, 17:52
Flyers have the same LoS rules as everyone else - that is, interposing units block LoS as normal (unless either party is large target, and the interposing target is not).

Major Defense
01-01-2006, 02:32
As V. Romeo pointed out, Large Targets see and can be seen over any interposing models, even other Large Targets.

Where is this?

WLBjork
01-01-2006, 08:37
Troops, either friendly or unfriendly block line of sight. It is not possible to shoot directly through one model to hit another. This does not apply if a target behind normal sized models (such as Men or Orcs) is defined as a large target. Snotlings or Goblins can't block line of sight to a Giant for example. This works vice versa - a Dragonrider, for example, can shoot at targets over interposing friendly models which re not large.

Was this changed in any of the commentries printed by Gav? I know a few things have changed as a result of them.

Festus
01-01-2006, 15:57
Hi

Where is this?
Annual 2004, p.112, 2nd column

Pontus
05-01-2006, 14:35
Also note that some flyers, like Flying Units, have 360 degrees LoS, while others, like Great Eagles, have 90.

Where does it say what LoS arc a flying unit have? (Mainly asking about bretonian pegasus knights).

Major Defense
05-01-2006, 15:12
Annual 2004, p.112, 2nd column

"Large Targets see and can be seen over any interposing models, even other Large Targets." - Festus

I ask because that sounds like a break from the rule that you can't see past models of the same size. I have a DL friend who likes to screen Belakor with 5+ units of Changebringers. According to what I hope is an incorrect quote, this wouldn't be possible.

Festus
05-01-2006, 15:13
Hi

All single Models with a US1 and Skirmishers have 360 LoS.
As Pegasus Knights are flying cavalry and a unit of flyers, and units of flyers are always skirmishers, they do indeed have a LoS of 360

Greetings
Festus

Festus
05-01-2006, 15:19
Hi

"Large Targets see and can be seen over any interposing models, even other Large Targets." - Festus

I ask because that sounds like a break from the rule that you can't see past models of the same size. I have a DL friend who likes to screen Belakor with 5+ units of Changebringers. According to what I hope is an incorrect quote, this wouldn't be possible.

A Large Target cannot be screened at all.

Only Terrain can conceal a Large Target, and as with all terrain, it is up to the players to decide wich terrain blocks LoS to what. There simply are no hard and fast terrain rules.

I am thinking you speak of targetting rules here, right?
As the Changebringers are not Large Targets themselves, the point is moot anyways. They cannot screen a model larger than themselves against targetting.

Base size is only a *rule of thumb*, not an end in itself. Obviously Belakor is larger than the Changebringers, as the former is a large target and the latter are not.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 16:27
A Large Target cannot be screened at all.I seem to remember having this discussion on portent, and the conclusion was that Large Targets block LOS to Large Targets.



As the Changebringers are not Large Targets themselves, the point is moot anyways. They cannot screen a model larger than themselves against targetting.Changebringers, as with all models on Discs of Tzeentch, are Large Targets for the purpose of LOS. While the Changebringers cannot protect a Large target from missile fire in the normal way, they CAN block LOS.

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 16:59
I seem to remember having this discussion on portent, and the conclusion was that Large Targets block LOS to Large Targets.

Apologies for the double post, but I've dug up the relevant rule.

Page 59, BRB : "This works vice versa -- a dragonrider, for example, can shoot at targets over interposing friendly models which are not large"
(Emphasis mine).

Festus
05-01-2006, 16:59
Changebringers, as with all models on Discs of Tzeentch, are Large Targets for the purpose of LOS. While the Changebringers cannot protect a Large target from missile fire in the normal way, they CAN block LOS.
Hi

I am very sure that a Dragon cannot hide behind another Dragon...

But even if you keep your point that LoS to Large Targets can be blocked, Changebringers still won't give any targetting-protection to any Large Target. A LoC next to 5 Changebringers can still be singled out...

IMO Changebringers are classified as LT for LoS purposes to let them see and be seen over interposing troops.

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 17:01
I am very sure that a Dragon cannot hide behind another Dragon...I think I may have sneaked my second post in as you were writing this.


But even if you keep your point that LoS to Large Targets can be blocked, Changebringers still won't give any targetting-protection to any Large Target. A LoC next to 5 Changebringers can still be singled out...No, because Changebringers are Large Targets for the purpose of LOS.


IMO Changebringers are classified as LT for LoS purposes to let them see and be seen over interposing troops.That may be your opinion, but it is not in accordance with the rules.

Festus
05-01-2006, 17:58
Hi

I think I may have sneaked my second post in as you were writing this.

Still debatable, but you have a point here... :)


No, because Changebringers are Large Targets for the purpose of LOS.
Right, for LoS purposes, but not for targetting purposes. Large Targets may be singled out if in proximity to Changebringers, as they are not protected, as the troops are not of the same size.

Changebringers *are not* Large Targets, hence they are not as large as Large Targets.

Easy...

Greetings
FEstus

Atrahasis
05-01-2006, 17:59
Right, for LoS purposes, but not for targetting purposes. Large Targets may be singled out if in proximity to Changebringers, as they are not protected, as the troops are not of the same size.


I did not suggest that Changebringers could offer the 5" rule to large targets, quite the opposite - I explicitly said that they could not.

However, they can and DO block LOS to Large Targets, being Large Targets for this purpose.