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GreenSpeed
16-06-2009, 17:28
If a wight king takes the black axe of krell does he loose the killing blow ability?

PARTYCHICORITA
16-06-2009, 17:37
yes, only mundane weapons have the rule.

Spirit
17-06-2009, 05:10
Thats why you buy him a regular great weapon and tool him up with 50 points of defensive gear, he becomes the hardest hero in the game to kill.

WLBjork
17-06-2009, 05:33
Or Sword of Kings - that's designed for Wight Kings :D

Spirit
17-06-2009, 05:58
Yea but i find S6, T6 and 3 wounds while rebounding the first one on a 2+ to be a bit more versatile than S4 and 5+ killing blow (yes, i know that leaves you with 25 points)

Corpus Festerheart
17-06-2009, 09:34
wight king is T5. I think that the gem of blood is more useful when equiped by vampires or necromancers. wight kings are already hard!

Spirit
17-06-2009, 15:47
wight king is T5. I think that the gem of blood is more useful when equiped by vampires or necromancers. wight kings are already hard!

50 points of defensive gear.

25 point, accursed armour
25 point, gem of blood
10 point, great weapon

T6 and usually 4 wounds with 3 attacks at S6 (i know its WS 1 but when he goes against a lord i just make him ws6)

The problem i have with the gen on a vampire is that when you roll a 1 the vampire usually dies. At lest the with king can take both the wounds and still be alive.

I know they are already hard, but this setup has allowed me to take on (and sometimes kill) 400 point lords with my lowly 135 point hero




Back on topic though, i like the black axe for sneaky challenges. Usually people wont decline a challenge with a unit champion against a wight king, and with the black axe it is very possible to get the full +6 combat resolution. Its won my grave guard unit many a combat.

Also, last time i played lizardmen i managed to cause 2 wounds on a salamander and 1 wound on a saurs scar veteran, in the next turn they both died from the toughness tests, my opponent was not amused.

sulla
17-06-2009, 23:26
Thats why you buy him a regular great weapon and tool him up with 50 points of defensive gear, he becomes the hardest hero in the game to kill.Or better still, buy him and his unit 150pts worth of defensive gear in the form of a BSB upgrade and a certain magical banner that helps them on so many levels.

Lordmonkey
18-06-2009, 00:25
Inspiring. I might bother making a competitive combat/wight-centric list that doesn 't entirely revolve around magic and van Hel's...

vinny t
18-06-2009, 16:24
Yeah, he does. But thats why you make him a BSB with the regen banner and put him in a Blood Knight/Grave Guard unit.:D:D:D

Just trying to help!

Agoz
18-06-2009, 17:59
I think the combo of sword of kings, heavy armor, shield, barded skeletal steed and gem of blood from last edition still works pretty well.

Spirit
18-06-2009, 18:10
Or better still, buy him and his unit 150pts worth of defensive gear in the form of a BSB upgrade and a certain magical banner that helps them on so many levels.

Yea, while i do like to rely on some crutches, like the helm of command. There is a certain banner that i think to be a step too far.

Milgram
18-06-2009, 18:13
the warbanner?

sulla
18-06-2009, 22:43
Yea, while i do like to rely on some crutches, like the helm of command. There is a certain banner that i think to be a step too far.I disagree. It does make a unit of yours very hard, but there are plenty of units in my army (DE) or chaos, or dwarves or daemons that are hard too. The regen banner is so pricey it is not overpowered IMO (especially with so much flaming and killing blow out there). Combining it with a pair of corpse carts and putting all your vamps in the front rank with the hatred banner would be a little whiffy, but at least your opponent could go to work on the rest of your army...

Spirit
19-06-2009, 04:36
I disagree. It does make a unit of yours very hard, but there are plenty of units in my army (DE) or chaos, or dwarves or daemons that are hard too. The regen banner is so pricey it is not overpowered IMO (especially with so much flaming and killing blow out there). Combining it with a pair of corpse carts and putting all your vamps in the front rank with the hatred banner would be a little whiffy, but at least your opponent could go to work on the rest of your army...

Nah im gonna have to disagree, unless im playing vs a WAAC player i leave the banner at home.

On a lowly unit of skeletons + a little magic and you have a totally unkillable unit. Passing the 15 regeneration saves to make back it's points is really easy when you get to do it twice per combat phase.

Flaming attacks sure, but there arent that many good combat things with flaming attacks and i can weather the shooting no problem.

Atrahasis
19-06-2009, 10:54
If you think the Dickenhof is well-priced, then you simply have no concept of what well-priced is.

It is the most undercosted item in a book that isn't short of powerful items.

EvC
19-06-2009, 13:57
This is usually the bit where someone says "so what, just kill the guy carrying it".

Milgram
19-06-2009, 15:25
so what, just kill the guy carrying it. he only has 3 wounds, T5 and a 2+ armour... and regen and he can be healed. definitelly no match for a demonprince with firesword and etherblade... :)

Atrahasis
19-06-2009, 15:28
Arch Lector with Sword of Fate is my preference, along with a Metal mage as insurance.

One of the few heroes that I would target with the Sword, the other being the very similar Herald of Nurgle BSB.

Lordmonkey
19-06-2009, 17:18
It's all about Killing Blow when facing the Dickenhof Banner.

My Corsairs flanked a unit of bloodknights with that banner (BSB). 12 hatred killing blow (cauldron) attacks later, you've a bsb standing on his own looking rather embarrassed...

sulla
20-06-2009, 03:52
If you think the Dickenhof is well-priced, then you simply have no concept of what well-priced is.

It is the most undercosted item in a book that isn't short of powerful items.

...and that's where you've gone wrong. Those other items are where the problem lies, not the banner. No way a ws boosting that can only be stopped by one army in the game while bunkered should cost as cheap as it does. No way vanhels should be so easy to cast, let alone spammable, no way there should be so much access to ASF in the list (although the price of corpse carts is probably fair enough, the

sulla
20-06-2009, 04:06
If you think the Dickenhof is well-priced, then you simply have no concept of what well-priced is.

It is the most undercosted item in a book that isn't short of powerful items.

...and that's where you've gone wrong. Those other items are where the problem lies, not the banner. No way a ws boosting that can only be stopped by one army in the game while bunkered should cost as cheap as it does. No way vanhels should be so easy to cast, let alone spammable, no way there should be so much access to ASF in the list (although the price of corpse carts is probably fair enough, the book of arkhan is definately underpriced). Maybe even wights are underpriced with their 3 wounds; even with regen, you could easily see off a vampire BSB. Certainly the mastery powers are way underpriced.

But a banner that combined with it's character will cost in the vicinity of 250pts to make a unit regen? No way that's overpriced. How many units can it realistically help? Grave guard, Black knights and Blood knights. Put it in a unit of core infantry and whoop-de-doo, they are still soft, just not as soft as before. Without it, VC characters are easily mastered too. No, I stand by my statement. The banner is not underpriced and would still be fairly priced in any armybook at that price. More importantly, without it, I doubt most VC players would even play offense at all; they'd just bunker up and raise, raise, raise. I'm happy if they bring a BSB and I can't complain if they bring the banner. It makes it a challenge to beat them but I'd far rather face combat vamps than bunkerlords.

EvC
20-06-2009, 15:00
That's not a very good argument. The fact it doesn't help Skeletons much is irrelevant when you look at it in the context of how it would be used in an actual game- it's like saying a Hydra is fairly priced because it's not very effective if placed in a corner all game and never moved. Note that one key reason it is such good value is that it WOULDN'T be as good in any other army as it is for Vamps, as it also halves damage received from combat resolution (Meaning overall combat losses are reduced by 3/4).

Whether other items are more underpriced or not is a fair discussion, mind you ;)

Spirit
21-06-2009, 01:51
That's not a very good argument. The fact it doesn't help Skeletons much is irrelevant when you look at it in the context of how it would be used in an actual game- it's like saying a Hydra is fairly priced because it's not very effective if placed in a corner all game and never moved. Note that one key reason it is such good value is that it WOULDN'T be as good in any other army as it is for Vamps, as it also halves damage received from combat resolution (Meaning overall combat losses are reduced by 3/4).

Whether other items are more underpriced or not is a fair discussion, mind you ;)

And this is why i put it on skeletons. Grave guard dont need it, but it makes your little core unit unkillable.

Talash
21-06-2009, 19:37
And this is why i put it on skeletons. Grave guard dont need it, but it makes your little core unit unkillable.

Really? REALLY really? Regenerating Skeletons arent really that much of a threat, barely pack a punch (Even with a Great Weapon wielding BSB) and cost ALOT of points. The Regen banner is 125pts remember? I really think not putting that banner on a unit that can fight is a waste of those points, and alot of potential. Just my thoughts.

Although for VC, talking about one unit isnt usually relevant, as the key to a good VC list is synergy between your characters, magic and units.

Spirit
22-06-2009, 23:02
Really? REALLY really? Regenerating Skeletons arent really that much of a threat, barely pack a punch (Even with a Great Weapon wielding BSB) and cost ALOT of points. The Regen banner is 125pts remember? I really think not putting that banner on a unit that can fight is a waste of those points, and alot of potential. Just my thoughts.

Although for VC, talking about one unit isnt usually relevant, as the key to a good VC list is synergy between your characters, magic and units.

Yes really, if you cant see why an unkillable unit strength 40 fear causer with full rank bonus and 7 static combat resolution (which gets replenished by magic, generally with a +1 because of lord of the dead) is a threat then it's you thats wasting a lot of points.

As i said before, 125 points is 16 regeneration saves on the skeletons, i fail to see how that is going to have any trouble making it's points back.

As you pointed out (and very rightly so), it's not the unit itself in a VC army that has to pack the punch, its how it works in relation to the rest of your army.

E.G i get my unkillable tarpit unit into combat with the enemies biggest hardest unit which will then lead to the inevitable flank from black knights, killing said unit.

And anyway the skeletons dont have to do damage to win a combat throguh casulties caused, even a flank charge from a unit of dire wolves will mean that the combat will be won by a significant amount to worry most units.

Talash
22-06-2009, 23:14
Yes really, if you cant see why an unkillable unit strength 40 fear causer with full rank bonus and 7 static combat resolution (which gets replenished by magic, generally with a +1 because of lord of the dead) is a threat then it's you thats wasting a lot of points.

As i said before, 125 points is 15 regeneration saves on the skeletons, i fail to see how that is going to have any trouble making it's points back.

6 Khorne knighs with musician and banner. Just for a laugh make that the War Banner - 325 points. Im assuming 19 skeletons here (Cheapest way to get the three rank bonus including the BSB in the unit), with banner and musician (Maybe a champion), the banner that doubles your unit strength, a vampire BSB with the +1 combat resolution bloodline power AND the drakenhoff (Not sure about spelling there...) banner comes to about, what? ROUGHLY 450 points? So im a good 125 cheaper, and I rekon the knights will win.

All id say is that nothing is unkillable, especially as the banner is on the BSB who isnt exactly invulnerable, who will be struck first and foremost in combat to negate the banners effects on the rest of the unit.

If you want serious points denial put that banner on a Wight King BSB in a unit of HW&S Grave Guard with one of their spangly banners. A pretty hard unit with good static combat resolution, Killing Blow and the ability to be raised is pretty nasty. Though I prefer the good ol' 5+ KB sword, Accursed Armour and BSB setup on my Wight King, especially in a list with the Helm of Commandment and Corpse Carts.

EDIT: Regardless, all im saying is that I rekon the Drakenhoff has, in my opinion, better uses that in a unit of skeletons and that its not a broken magic item by any means. Its great if used well, but VC players would be wise not to overestimate its effectiveness and assume it makes a tarpit unkillable or, even worse, that the tarpit-and-flank tactic works every time outside of a vaccuum. I find in debates online its only fair to assume the player youll be up against in all these examples is as good a player as yourself.

Spirit
23-06-2009, 00:43
The knights wont win that combat, they wont lose, but they most certainly will not win. And the wight king will slowly tear them apart. Not to mention that frenzied knights will be hard pressed to charge what they want.

But this is not the point, i'm not saying the skeletons will do well against EVERY unit in the game, of course you can pick a unit from another army list that can beat them, i could probably go and find something that would kill your khorne knights, but it doesnt mean you should stop taking them. Every unit has a counter so its pointless trying to compare them in a vacuum (a point you made yourself with the flank manuver).

The point im making is that, for their points and due to the ease in which you can raise them back, skeletons (or ghouls) will benefit most from having regeneration compared to any other unit, simply because they will have to take a higher volume of saves.

While the tarpit and flank might not work every time, the fact that the skeletons will stay there indefinitely means you have plenty of time to make it work. And once again, even without the flank, the unit has 7 static combat resolution. Against anything not immune to fear they will usually win without help.

The reason i like it in skeletons is that its cheap. You say that its really expensive but to combine it with anything better than skeletons is even more expensive. This option is the cheap option.

The drakenhoff is most certainly a broken magic item.

Talash
23-06-2009, 00:57
The drakenhoff is most certainly a broken magic item.

I said id stop, but I cant let something like that go unchallenged... For 125 points the banner is very powerful, but not broken. Though I will concede its even more powerful, dare I say it broken, in anything short of a 2k game.

Spirit
23-06-2009, 03:38
I said id stop, but I cant let something like that go unchallenged... For 125 points the banner is very powerful, but not broken. Though I will concede its even more powerful, dare I say it broken, in anything short of a 2k game.

Im curious as to how you can justify that.

125 points for a unit (and any characters in it) gives them regeneration and thats fine, but a character anywhere else has to pay 50 points to get it for themselves. And anyone else buying it wont get to use it against lost combats.

For what it achieves, it is way too inexpensive, thus making it broken, regardless of the size of game.

Talash
23-06-2009, 13:51
Im curious as to how you can justify that.

125 points for a unit (and any characters in it) gives them regeneration and thats fine, but a character anywhere else has to pay 50 points to get it for themselves. And anyone else buying it wont get to use it against lost combats.

For what it achieves, it is way too inexpensive, thus making it broken, regardless of the size of game.

Because the regeneration banner is a unit-wide 4+ save against anything that isnt a flaming attack or a KB. And god knows theres nothing out there with THOSE attacks... (Apart from the Lore of Fire, Metal, lots of magical items, characters with KB, etc etc)

The banner is given to a character. That character gets hit by a KB attack. Theres no way he can also have a ward save and take the banner. Ergo, one KB attack will not only kill the character (Thus killing a hero choice that is vital to the VC list for survival, and killing the BSB for the army, yummy VPs there) but also deny that unit regeneration for the rest of the game, which can compromise alot of tactics built around it.

Also the banner is a magic item. Law of Gold is such a fun spell, isnt it? If I was paying for something that wasnt 1) carried by a character and 2) a magic item, then 125 points would be absurdly broken. I can only assume you havent played with this item in a competetive setting, where you would see its limitations. Yes I play Lizardmen, DEs, VCs, DoC and WoC, which means for me it isnt too hard to counter (Slaan, Assassins, my own Grave Guard, Bloodthirsters/Bloodletters and the Axe of Khorne, etc etc) but with the current power creep I wouldnt be surprised if the item loses its "broken-ness" with every passing new army book.

My summary would be: Very good item, well worth its points, but not broken because of the sheer amount of counters to it and that its a magic item carried by a BSB.

Milgram
23-06-2009, 14:25
and killing the BSB for the army, yummy VPs there

no VPs for the battle standart unless you wipe out the skeleton unit in the same turn.

arguing with magic is always a bit meh... IG can destroy any unit, regardles of its point value and special magic items. so there is no strategy that can hold 100% against a tzeench sorccerer. not even 6 khornate knights with etherblade etc. now this obvoiusly makes every unit killable (maybe besides the stank, which could be argued to be immune to IG). horray!

law of gold? yes, please! thank you for using metal lore against VC! fire? nice choice, but it can be healed by the vamps to a degree, where the unit once again will not be killable in close combat.

as for bloodthirsters, well... the skeletons could youst show you the flank. how it is easy to predict, where the bloodthirster will hit.

the chance to hit the wight with a killing blow is just too small, to build a anti-drakenhoff-unit around killing blow. you could as well shoot with a dwarven cannon with fire rune on him - it is 1/6 as well when you hit him, of course, you will then have to roll 3+ for him to die again.

EvC
23-06-2009, 14:42
Of course a unit with Drakenhof Banner has counters, Killing Blow and Flaming attacks being at the top of the list. But against everything else, which is 90% of the stuff in the game, it's absurdly over the top. Effective on Skeletons and if there are other characters in there, broken on certain stronger units in the right situation (E.g. Grave Guard, or Blood Knights with multiple characters).

Falkman
23-06-2009, 14:46
What EvC said.
Yes, the Drakenhof banner is negated by fire attacks and KB.
The thing is, there isn't that much in the game that possesses that on any wide scale.
There are not many units with killing blow, and the only ones with flaming attacks are daemons and some shooting stuff.


50 points of defensive gear.

25 point, accursed armour
25 point, gem of blood
10 point, great weapon

T6 and usually 4 wounds with 3 attacks at S6 (i know its WS 1 but when he goes against a lord i just make him ws6)
Best kit for a Wight King has to be Sword of Kings and Nightshroud.
Kill anything you're scared of before it even hits you.

Ultimate Life Form
23-06-2009, 14:51
Uhm, excuse me, but what happened to the Black Axe of Krell again?:)

Still, I find this discussion very interesting. I never thought of putting the Drakenhof Banner into a Core. Seems like the possibilities with VC are limitless. It seems to have worked for Spirit thus far. Anyone else got an idea for an unusual application? Cairn Wraith maybe? Perhaps we should create a thread to discuss the finer points of VC banner tactics, there are just so many great choices!

Cragspyder
23-06-2009, 15:27
My Lizardmen don't have anything in the army with Killing Blow other then the Dagger of Sotek (skink chief only, woo) and Tik'taqto's Terradon after he has dropped rocks...

Flaming attacks aren't much better... they have Salamanders. That's all, unless you take a Slann, in which case you have Lore of Fire or Lore of Metal as well.

Most other armies only have 1 or 2 options for both of these types of attacks (my other army, Tomb Kings, has killing blow from Tomb Guard and the Icon Bearer, and flaming attacks from the Screaming Skull Catapult and the Chariot of Fire)

Most people will have at most 2 of these options per army. My Lizardmen have 2 Salamanders and a Slann, my Tomb Kings have an Icon Bearer and a Catapult. If those options fail, the unit with the Drakenhof Banner is effectively invincible.

Milgram
23-06-2009, 15:32
Perhaps we should create a thread to discuss the finer points of VC banner tactics, there are just so many great choices!

the whole thing here should be moved to tactics forum. :)

btw: TK has also the scorpion.

Crube
24-06-2009, 11:54
the whole thing here should be moved to tactics forum. :)



Agreed - Thread moved


Crube
The Warseer Inquisition