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Mannimarco
16-06-2009, 17:32
ive just finished a game with my death guard fighting imperial guard, for 2 turns of the game one of my plague marine squads sit inside a forest on top of an objective getting shot to hell by a pair of hellhounds, what i was wondering is wouldnt it be cool if terrain could be set on fire/destroyed by ordinance*, treating burning terrain as dangerous would add to the game, make it more fun, what you all think?

i know you can already do this in apocalypse

Oberst Viktor Morte
16-06-2009, 18:00
Well, also if you treat buildings as bunkers, they can be destroyed.

But I know what you mean, it's a neat concept. Why not take this idea to the rules development forum?

Mannimarco
16-06-2009, 18:01
good call, completely forgot about that

Bunnahabhain
16-06-2009, 18:18
Or look at the 2nd ed rules, where you could set forests etc alight...

unclejimbo827
16-06-2009, 18:28
the easiest way to do it would be to say that the trees are dangerous terrain after a flamer hits them.

Mannimarco
16-06-2009, 18:39
thats the plan, all terrain is treated as dangerous, models staying in it when its on fire count as being hit by a flamer if they chose to stay in the flaming woods

wouldnt really bother some of the tougher troops but might be considered broken with lower toughness/armour troops

hereticdave
16-06-2009, 19:28
Anti-plant missiles :)

Mannimarco
16-06-2009, 19:33
which would do nothing to the troops inside, no its much more fun to set fire to the terrain

i can just imagine ork burna boys in a cityfight now

some races would definately have a distinct advantage in terms of flamer weapons but this is somthing i could see working

tsutek
16-06-2009, 19:37
Well, your rules mod would certainly make fighting nids a lot cooler.. sisters vs nids would be changed forever (and not necessarily in a bad way)

Just one thing: how do you determine the burning area?

Lord Humongous
16-06-2009, 19:42
Dangerous terrain is really brutal to high cost units, because it doesn't allow any armor save. Rather than making it dangerous terrain, I'd just say any unit that is in / passes through it in the movement phase takes a Str 3 AP- hit. If being a passenger inside an exploding tank is only a Str 3 Ap-, I think that's good enough for a fire; full on flamer stats seem a bit much.

Mannimarco
16-06-2009, 19:44
true but this is a sustained burn, and isnt it only s3 if said tank is open topped?

id imagine the fire spreads,a building can be hit with a flame weapon, on a 6 it combusts, if 2 flamers its a 5 or a 6 etc

the whole terrain piece would burn (not sure if this is viable as some terrain is bigger than others, should a whole 6 inch long 2 story building burst into flames as easily as a small clump of trees, needs some working out but could be fun

Grinder
16-06-2009, 20:08
Very cool idea, complex but neat. After not playing for a long time, while getting back into the current edition, I'm noticing lots of different ideas getting presented or thought through by the rules team that Warseers have brought to my attention.

I'm of the mind that this is pretty much in the rules now, when a partially exposed unit takes wounds greater than the exposed models then the firepower has overlapped some and gotten through the cover. Pretty good design, simply lets you game more without debating as much, IMHO.

Your terrain busting stuff would be well suited for Ordnance, Flamers, Plasma and the like. This would be for 40K "advanced" as having to describe the firepower types, effects, and effects on the terrain. Removing terrain pieces and replacing with suitable pieces would be problematic with real world practices. Cool though!

Initial idea I have, a scenario write up with some starter rules for the included weaponry. Say one last Tyrant trying to run back to the rest of the brood with rules on blasting the forest he is running through with some IG Bassie ordnance. Nid player occupies IG with running gaunts at them, etc, etc.

Actually bought a used copy of Squad Commander for my PSP and the cover/terrain is capable of getting destroyed. Check it out if you can.

To sum: really cool just hard to represent in game terms.

Captain Corallis
16-06-2009, 20:50
We used to do this at my local store, the trees could be set on fire and turned into dangerous terrain if you used a flame template on them. Great fun when someone used infernus shells...or not, depending on your point of view.

Cpt Corallis

Bunnahabhain
16-06-2009, 21:22
The neatest way to implement reasonably effectively is simply to make it dangerous terrain. Maybe say the flamer type weapon has to wound (woods = t 3/4? Building = T 6?) before it starts burning, so a simple flamer is less likey to set the building alight than the hell hound, to make it less predictable.
If it's a really big bit of terrain, simply split it into two, along some natural dividing line.

Anything more than that requires lots more fiddly detail, which can be good, but not on the scale 40k is nowadays. As I said above, if you're using 2nd ed model counts, you can use 2nd ed rules, which cover this, in more detail.

I've also played other company scale games, with combustible terrain. There, if it's burning, then it's impassable, end of story. Simple and effective.

jesusjohn
16-06-2009, 21:25
ahhh i remember anti plant missiles. Gone are the days when you'd fire somthing and then go through the massive grenade/missile list to find out what it did!

Lord Humongous
16-06-2009, 21:35
true but this is a sustained burn, and isn't it only s3 if said tank is open topped?

id imagine the fire spreads,a building can be hit with a flame weapon, on a 6 it combusts, if 2 flamers its a 5 or a 6 etc

the whole terrain piece would burn (not sure if this is viable as some terrain is bigger than others, should a whole 6 inch long 2 story building burst into flames as easily as a small clump of trees, needs some working out but could be fun


Hmm- your right, I've been playing it as Str 3 for all vehicles. Then again, terrain like woods is open topped, no? And yeah, with a sustained burn you could get a lot of heat, but you could also just get a lousy smpldering that goes on at a low temp for days... its not like 40K tabletops have room for raging forest fires that melt tarmack.
Using the dangerous terrain rule would basically turns a flamer from a weapon that ignores cover saves and can hit 3-8 models into one that ignores cover AND armor saves AND can potentially wound more models than would fit under the template.

Having to roll to set the terrain on fire might molify that a bit. Make it a simple roll of 6 for each flamer (5 or 6 for heavy flamers, twin linked get re-rolls) to keep it simple and avoif making it a sure thing for units with 6 fmalers (burna boys etc) to set terrain on fire. Still, even with this, I'd rather see it as a seperate thing from dangerous terrain. After all, shouldn;t driving a motorcycle through a burning forrest be more dangerous than just going through a normal forest? Strenght 4 and always hits the back armor of vehicles might be good though, so that most vehicles are not entirely imune to fire (though with glancing hits and AP-, it would not do much, except maybe to open-top vehicles...)

Mannimarco
16-06-2009, 21:53
liking that idea, will try that

DaSpaceAsians
16-06-2009, 22:52
I might discuss burning terrain rules with the clan. Who knows?

chromedog
16-06-2009, 23:03
Play 2nd ed.
Set stuff on fire, like woods, buildings, enemy models.
Get to throw grenades, too.

Have to do more arithmetic, though (this power axe is save-3, their save is 4+, so, um, no save.) :D

Loki73
17-06-2009, 03:21
In 2ed when peeps were wounded by a flamer but made thier save they were wounded on a 4+ in subsequent rounds. Was fun.

Triggerdog
17-06-2009, 08:32
Back in my old group we'd remove terrain all the time, just to add to things.

For example, a burned out Rhino and some crates cannot withstand two direct shots from Demolisher cannons, one right after the other. Doesnt matter what happens to the squad inside, that terrain piece gets removed and replaced with a crater.

Treadhead_1st
17-06-2009, 10:48
Why not have it:

When a flamer fires it ignites the terrain around it. At the start of the opponents next turn (maybe make this shooting phase so it gives them a chance to run away, flufferised as the casualties are too busy rolling on the ground and burning to death to shoot), roll a D6 - on a 2+ the terrain ignites and any model in the burning terrain suffers a Strength 4 hit (roll to wound as normal and armour saves allowed) and on a 1 the fire goes out with no effect to those within and no lasting effects. Should the terrain ignite, in subsequent turns add +1 to the strength of the hit and subtract -1 from the D6 roll required (so second turn the fire goes out on a 1-2, but it's a strength 5 hit; third turn the fire goes out on a 1-3 but it's a Srength 6 hit).

I reckon this might work, because it's not overly broken (if you don't want to suffer Str 5 or worse hits get the heck out of Dodge) and the mechanic can fail quite easily. Slightly more characterful than just Dangerous Terrain tests and it means characters in full exo-suits (like Terminator Armour), designed to work in high-heat environments, have greater protection against the flames than a naked Gaunt.

Hellgore
17-06-2009, 16:09
I'd rather make it always a 2+ for Forests, a 3+ for Buildings and a 4+ for bunkers during the shooting phase to see if the terrain catches fire or if the fire burns on. A leadership test must be successfull to enter a burning area. Units hit by a flamer which ignites a terrain piece may run out of it voluntarily or must pass a leadership test to stay inside.
Any unit inside a burning terrain receives a s4 ap- hit (rear armor) for each model in it during cc-phase.
In addition the smoke of the burning terrain blocks line of sight for shooting through and gives a 3+ cover save for units inside and for units being shot at from inside the fire.
This is similar to what is used in battletech, where these rules work perfect.

Mannimarco
17-06-2009, 23:11
good call, never played battletech but if it works there its probably ok just to do a straight copy into 40k

Imperius
18-06-2009, 05:54
This would suck for people who don't use GW terrain like me.

I have a forest that covers 2' x 6' and imagine setting THAT on fire.

holmcross
18-06-2009, 06:23
Oh man. I read the preview snippit and I really hoped this was a 2 page thread about literally starting fires on the game board and "how to do it safely."

:(

Hellgore
18-06-2009, 12:31
This would suck for people who don't use GW terrain like me.

I have a forest that covers 2' x 6' and imagine setting THAT on fire.

Well, why not use some common sense? For example put a little fire marker in the area where the flameweapon hit, and then make it a 3"+D3" radius of fire. And then in successive turns roll the die to see if it spreads out.

Bunnahabhain
18-06-2009, 12:52
Oh man. I read the preview snippit and I really hoped this was a 2 page thread about literally starting fires on the game board and "how to do it safely."

:(
Methanol.

It burns at such a low temperature, you can do lots of seemingly insane things with it.

Be easy enough to have some kind of small spirit lamp , with the characteristic flickering blue flame. Would be a great objective.

JHZ
18-06-2009, 15:20
Oh man. I read the preview snippit and I really hoped this was a 2 page thread about literally starting fires on the game board and "how to do it safely."

:(
You and me both. I once had the idea of simulating a nuclear attack with a jerry can and a stick of TNT. Slam it in the middle of the table and light the fuce. Whoosh!


As for flamers, I don't think that the woods would go up in flames that fast. I mean, it's healthy, living forest, not a pile of dry logs just waiting for a spark. The durface might get scorched and all the leaves and grass would burn away, but those would burn out fast, so they won't be near as bad as the actual blast from the flamer. It's not like it would be a raging inferno. It might burn down, but it'd take time for the fire to develope into a serious one, surely longer than the short timeframe 40K battle are set in.

Most forest fires need a drought to take off. Otherwise it won't burn, as the wood is too moist. Not without enough heat to dry the wood and burn it.

So while I think the idea is nice, I don't see the forest actually cathing on fire to have much meaning to the game.