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Zaonite
17-06-2009, 03:53
Okay here's the deal.

Today I bought another Bolt Thrower, taking my total up to four. My friend who was with me immediately complained that my Elf army has enough cheese on it already and didn't need any more.

What I want to know is; How many bolt throwers is too many?

And has anyone developed any sneaky/useful tactics for using the Eagle Claws?

The Beast Walks Among Us
17-06-2009, 04:16
Eh, 4 bolt throwers are annoying but there are definitely ways to deal with them. They're expensive (overcosted?) and fragile. If you manage to get anything in CC with them, its an easy 100 vp's.

If you have 4 bolt throwers, you have no eagles, which are one of the best units in the list. With my Brets I would much rather face 4 RBT's than 4 eagles. For all around play, a mix is probably best. They work very well in concert together.

Of course, if you're fielding something like a star dragon, 4 units of DP's, and 4 RBT's, the discussion changes entirely.

Johan Chill
17-06-2009, 04:53
I think it's perfectly fine to max out on one or two things, especially if it fits a theme. May I ask what the rest of your army looks like?

nzdarkelf
17-06-2009, 05:52
What army does your friend take? What are his friends common builds? Chances are someone will call them cheesy too!
I have a regular High Elf opponent, 4 RBT's are a given - infact always an eye raiser if he doesn't take them all. I have a Dark Elf army as well as others. I always try to take as many RBT's as I can.
Had a large chunk of my army destroyed by a Casket of the Souls in turn 1 in my last game. Cheesy?? Thats the nature of warhammer.
If your friend can't take it suggest Monopoly - at least there aint too much cheese there: although those "Get Out of Jail Free" cards might be pushing things a tad!!!

TombKing101
17-06-2009, 08:26
I think 4 bolt throwers is a bit excessive, but as said its fair because there are ways to deal with them..I'd just take 4 tomb scorpions :)

Althwen
17-06-2009, 08:34
My regular HE opponent often takes 3 bolt throwers even in a 2000pts battle and is known to up that number to 4 occasionally.
As a Warriors of Chaos general myself, I can say they're a pain in the ass but I don't consider them cheesy... hardly anything in the HE list would earn the 'cheese' label if it were up to me. My other friend plays Dark Elves and VC... now those two armies have CHEESE written all over them!

Don't worry about taking 4 bolt throwers once in a while... but if after giving them a go a couple of times, your friend still hates them and thinks them unfair... I recommend toning it down a notch. It's all about funplay!

PeG
17-06-2009, 08:43
As others have said it depends on the rest of your list as well as what your opponent is playing. If 4 bolt throwers in combination with some other shooting and HE magic is enough to prevent you opponent to do anything useful it is obviously not a set up for fun games. On the other hand if the outcome of your games is still mixed everything is fine. Always remember that the goal is that all players should have fun.

isidril93
17-06-2009, 13:59
if he has a couple of fliers then they should not be a problem to him...in fact i think the points used up for two bolt throwers is better used else where

Zaonite
17-06-2009, 14:07
Said friend always runs with WoC and considers RBTs very annoying.

I always try and run a balanced army list, kind of capable to deal with anything. I usually take 2 bolt throwers and 2 eagles.
Even as an Elf player I see 4 RBTs in 2k to be excessive.

The extra bolt throwers are for bigger games because 20 tooled up chaos knights with mark of khorne won't be good for my Elves if they manage to get into combat.

isidril93
17-06-2009, 14:16
Said friend always runs with WoC and considers RBTs very annoying.

I always try and run a balanced army list, kind of capable to deal with anything. I usually take 2 bolt throwers and 2 eagles.
Even as an Elf player I see 4 RBTs in 2k to be excessive.

The extra bolt throwers are for bigger games because 20 tooled up chaos knights with mark of khorne won't be good for my Elves if they manage to get into combat.

oh WOC...hes dead
i guess your army would sort of FIRE FIRE FIRE...then with a group of swordmasters/white lions charge and SLICE SLICE SLICE

willowdark
17-06-2009, 14:25
I've had a similar issue with my Dark Elves. I've been taking three bolt throwers lately and I have one opponent who just hates it. He complained so much that I promised him I wouldn't bring them to our games anymore. I promised to bring back the Hydra, go figure. Sometimes you just can't count on people sharing your good sense, even when they usually do.

For me, Bolt Throwers are too good not to bring in your list, but the things that you've brought them to do are too important to risk bad dice rolls. I just can't count on two RBTs doing what I brought them to do. So for me, a third one is a very reasonable investment. There is a huge potential for game breaking effectiveness with that many RBTs, but just as much of a probability that none of them will land wounds on your main targets, especially against large monsters.

That being said, I would probably set the limit at 3. If your opponent doesn't have any Large monsters and you are multishooting his troops then 4 can be a little excessive. And you should be able to do with 3 just as much as you can do with 4.

Sometimes cheese is about units. Black Guard, Regenerating Grave Guard, Engines of Gods. But cheese is often about the list as a whole. I faced a Dual Dragon HE army once with 4 Bolt Throwers. My super combat Wood Elves had no trouble at all dealing with his Dragons, they were both dead by turn 4. But while I had to dedicate all of my resources to dealing with them his 4 RBTs were lighting me up, so much that for all of my troubles and strong tactics I still lost. That was at a tournament that the HE player one, taking home the then brand new VC spearhead. Pretty much everyone who faced him that day complained about his list.

sroblin
17-06-2009, 18:53
I'm under the impression that 4 bolt-throwers is considered kind of on the power-gaming side.

Not on the same level as say 4 cannons, or double hydras, or whatever, and frankly 4 bolt-throwers are lot less nasty than a lot of others things out there. But it's still a pretty intimidating shooting phase with long range and good accuracy (short range at 24"!)

Desert Rain
17-06-2009, 21:11
I believe that 4 RTBs are a bit over the top. 2 of them are usually enough, and that also makes eagles available for you.

PeG
17-06-2009, 21:28
If you take 4 RBTs in friendly games against WoC one of two things will happen. Either he stops playing against you or he will modify his list to deal with them ie max magic and not so many combat units. In my view also the latter usually results in a less fun game with only shooting/magic to determine the outcome.

willowdark
17-06-2009, 21:35
I still say 3 is nice and reasonable. 3 and 1 eagle, sounds solid to me.

Zoolander
17-06-2009, 22:13
Whether you field 2, 3 or 4 BTs is up to you. Do not let anyone tell you what is acceptable to take, unless they want you to start calling cheese on their army. However, from a cost efficiency point of view, 2 is usually good enough and 4 is overkill and not spending your points in the most effective way. But if you like fielding 4, go for it - there's nothing wrong with that.

Also keep in mind that you are trying to keep the game friendly, and as your friend plays WoC, he is really not going to like 4 BTs! Just a thought.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
18-06-2009, 00:06
I think 4 bolt throwers is pretty weak to be honest. 3 is pushing it. 2 is the accepted number with a pair of eagles. In truth the eagles can buy enough time against most things to make it as if you had 4 bolt throwers. That and birds are far more versatile. I have never taken more than two. Thats one guy's opinion.
Peace

Cats Laughing
18-06-2009, 00:33
Pfft, RBTs are so underwhelming that you'd have to return to the days to 50pt RBTs and a 25% warmachine allowance (Ie: 10 RBTs in 2000pts) to deserve cries of cheese...

Seriously though, Zoolander has it pretty correct, though I would contend that your WOC opponent/friend would be much more annoyed if you could bring the same 400pts worth of nearly any other warmachine in the game, and he's only complaining because he ranks up his incredibly expensive heavily armored knights, thereby increasing the effectiveness of any armour-negating rank-piercing weapon (like regular gobbo bolt throwers or empire cannons). Quite honestly, you could reverse the complaint and point to his 0+ save extra-killy Khornate knights as really annoying, based on how they chop through your troops like a hot knife through butter. But it's not really a valid complaint in either direction. It's kind of like rock complaining about paper complaining about scissors...

Dvnjhn
18-06-2009, 00:34
Woc.

Nurgle against shooty = Cheese. I play high elves alot. I worry more about ASF. Apart from my Dragon rider getting blasted, bolt throwers aint done much.

If I was really bothered I would take 150/300 points of warhounds to sniff them out. (cheese)

nzdarkelf
18-06-2009, 05:39
Zaonite don't let people suck you in on the whole 'cheese' thing. What lore does your WoC opponent use? Tzeetch by chance? Two casters by chance? Balance out the whole 4xRBT's line, with Infernal Gateway cast with str 11, or 12. Once you have seen your best combat unit disappear from this one spell, try suggesting to your opponent that this Lore is cheese and maybe he should use the Lore of Fire or Death instead. See how seriously he takes you, especially if you have already adjusted your army to suit him.

The real question for me is how do you play the game? Rely on a gunline style or do you have combat units that advance to meet him head on? Gunlines can be a bit unsporting depending on how they are played. It maybe be more about the style of your play that upsets your opponent. If so you should consider changing that.

slingersam
18-06-2009, 06:22
I would not mind, but I feel some people might take it as cheese. I personally would not care just because their are a lot of mean armies that are worse than High elves, so maybe the only way for you to deal with them is to use 4 bolt throwers. Remember this is YOUR army and you play it the way you want to.

King_Pash
18-06-2009, 07:23
I regularly field 3-4 RBTs in my 2k lists. It means I don't have to take archers and means I can munch down some nice non-ward characters like Shaggoth and Chaos Lords on Dragons etc..

Lord Dan
18-06-2009, 07:37
There is no justification for taking 4 bolt throwers in a 2000 points list. They should be used as support - not as a way to decimate a unit each turn.

Johan Chill
18-06-2009, 08:03
There is no justification for taking 4 bolt throwers in a 2000 points list. They should be used as support - not as a way to decimate a unit each turn.

So a near quarter of your army shouldn't be able to take down an enemy unit? :rolleyes:

Play however you like, this is not chess, and it's your army. Don't let others dictate what you play; spend all your money on something you want.

TroyJPerez
18-06-2009, 08:16
If you have an opponent who regularly takes 4 repeater bolt throwers, do what I do. Run a dwarf list with 8 bolt throwers and see who wins the shooting war! Trust me mass warmachine combat games are truely boring and get old really fast.

Condottiere
18-06-2009, 08:22
The HE list was redesigned so that you could take 3 RBTs and an Eagle at 2K, or vice versa, otherwise they would have kept it at double units per slot.

I doubt anyone can complain if you use half your rare slots to field RBTs, but it may be a political question as to whether to deploy 3 or 4 of them.

Althwen
18-06-2009, 10:40
I still think every WoC who thinks 3-4 RBT is cheese, should take a look at his list and try to come up with a way to counter them. And in de WoC list there's a cheap way to do exactly that: Chaos Hounds. I field 3 x 5 hounds and have my Tzeentch disc wizard hunting bolt throwers as well.

Often enough I don't get them all down before turn 4, but even with 4 turns of shooting WoC has plenty survivability to withstand the suffering. Hell, I know the feeling of dissappointment every time a Nurgle Knight dies to 3 RBT's... but then everyone scoffs at me, as it took 18 shots to take down one knight... Perspective on a platter!

DE shooting is way worse! HE are just too easy and might even need a buff imo.

Zaonite
18-06-2009, 11:35
@nzdarkelf

The way I play is I try and make everything move and attack in concert with everything else.

I usually have a single unit of archers and seaguard protecting my bolt throwers. The eagles fly off and march block or take out any war machines or lone wizards (I quite frequently see lone wizards).
Swordmasters move to meet the enemy along with either phoenix guard or white lions with spearmen flanking.

And Yes, I have seen the In-bloody-fernal Gateway used.
It's not pretty when a unit of 21 swordmasters (3 ranks of 7) goes down before they even get a chance to swing their swords. Not to mention the Lord that goes with them.

nzdarkelf
18-06-2009, 12:33
Mate I don't think there is anything wong with the way you play. It sounds similar to the way I play my Dark Elves, with 3 or 4 RBT's.

For what its worth I also have a WoC army, and I used to often have to tackle a Dwarven Gunline - with engineers. He never used to move at all! Back then I only had infanty, because I couldn't afford the metal cav figs), so that was 3 entire turns just to cover no mans land. Then a charge with what was left of my guys on turn 4 against fairly intact Iron Warriors.

I got so sick of it that one game I used my vacant rare slots to take 2 (yes only 2) DoW cannons. Deployed them opposite the Iron Breakers. What a laugh. He actually tried to hide them on turns 1 and 2. And what really gets me is the howls of cheese about Chaos using missile troops!!!

Warhammer isn't designed to have even armies. People should remember this.

I guess having suffered a Gateway or two, one might feel the need to take the Ring of Hotek for a bit of protection. But no wait - the Ring of Hotek, apparently, is the most cheesy item in the game. Why? Against a Dwarven army it is simply a waste of 25pts. Same against Tomb Kings. What about the Casket of Souls that took out 1/3rd of my woC army 2 weeks ago in one turn? Don't bother trying to convince me the Ring of Hotek is cheesier than that or the Gateway.

Zaonite build your army the way it suits you. Ignore the cheese crap. If your mate puts 20 Knights of Khorne down, surely he is going to split them into 3 or 4 units. If he is making units of two ranks then he is a fool. Knight only need two turns to get into combat. So thats two shoots max for each RBT, 8 shoots total in two turns. You will need at least 3+ to hit, possibly 4+ (long range) on turn 1 if you go first. Rounded up 8 3+ shoots is 6 hits. To wound is anything but a 1, so with 6 hits on average thats 5 wounds. Split that over 4 units, big deal! 3 units will still have 4 models, so that 12 (13 with champ)str 5/6 attacks, plus 8 Str 4 attacks from the Chaos Steads, all against To3 Elves. They have a 1+ Armour save, so even with ASF the elves aint gonna do to much, apart from the swordmasters.
Lets face it in combat your Elves are gonna die bigtime. You actually need a strong magic/ shooting phase to stand any chance.

Good luck mate, Hapy shooting.

PeG
18-06-2009, 13:00
It really depends on your playing group. Most groups have established a power level that is acceptable and that they think is the most fun to play at and of someone goes above this level people will start to complain.

I play against a lot of different opponents and some prefer to play max cheese such as empire with mutliple cannons, double stanks, alter and karl on dragon while in other groups empire instead brings lots of infantry supported by a few knights and maybe 2 cannons (no stank, no alter, no dragon).

Personally I do a bit of everything as long as I know beforehand the rules of engagement. I dont want to bring a cheese list against a friendly list and I dont want to bring a weak list if I go up against max cheese.

willowdark
18-06-2009, 13:15
If one opponent complains adamantly about it, then bring something else but continue to use it in games against others who don't mind. I try to keep to the same list as much as possible, but it is nice sometimes to find excuses to bring something different. Changing your composition for your games against a Chaos player can help to show a contrast between what works against them compared to what works against others, shining a light on things you wouldn't have seen otherwise and ultimately improving you "all comers" play style.

Or split the difference and take 3. ;) You really should have the right to go just above 2 if you wish.

TacticalFirepower
18-06-2009, 14:09
I personally would not play against 3-4 bolt throwers. 2 is already pushing it IMO. I could live with one, but RBT's are cheese, so if you want a fun game, don't take too many.

PeG
18-06-2009, 14:46
The effect of boltthrowers and many other wamachines is highly terrain dependent. I can see that always taking 4 boltthrowers and always having a hill for them will get a bit boring for non-shooty armies but as soon as you take away the hill you can screen vital units and the game changes. Many gunlines (I do include 4 boltthrowers in this group) always insist on a hill which I belive usually breaks them more than having one or two extra warmachines.

Von Wibble
18-06-2009, 17:29
How many RBTs are too many? One.

Because they are spectacularly bad. I have posted this many times but once more - on a rate of kills compared to all otehr war machines in the game allowing for points the RBT is the worst one hands down. If it ignored armour for multishot or cost 60pts then 4 would be too much. Not otherwise. Althwen has it right - it takes so much shooting to remove a knight that it just isn't worth it. I'm not sure what units Lord Dan takes to the field but he must be a MSU player if 12 S4 hits decimate them all. 4 cannon can comfortably remove 3 chariots per turn and cripple 2 units of knights in the next if deployed well. I can't see RBTs doing that.

You are doing the chaos player a favour by taking 4 RBTs. An extra unit of dragon princes, 2 eagles and a lion chariot will achieve far far more for the same points. I have not used bolt throwers with high elves or dark elves since 6th edition started - the alternatives are just so much better.

wysiwyg
18-06-2009, 18:01
Are 4 bolt throwers cheesy, I would say no. Can you build a cheesy list that includes 4 bolt throwers, yes. As Von Wibble said they are very expensive for the damage their doing. If a unit got wiped out each by 400pts of infantry no one would think its cheesy (well some people might, but only because anything that beats them is cheesy). As to whether they are worth it in your list it all depends. I traditionally used 2 with 2 eagles but have been thinking about upping to 4 because I have an all infantry army with little magic. The extra shooting adds a lot of versatility whereas more close combat would doesn't kill anything my 6-7 infantry blocks couldn't.

Just choose what you like. If your opponents call it cheese they are just admitting that they've been checkmated and can't think of a single way to counter it. You might switch up the list to make for more interesting games, but feel free to remind them already surrendered to the bolt thrower list.

willowdark
18-06-2009, 18:14
A single shot has one chance to hit and one chance to wound. Then that wounds has a 2/3 chance to multiply. Now, I've no head for statistics. All I can speak from is experience. 2 Bolt Throwers just don't perform against large monsters like Dragons or Giants, or 5+ Ward Engines. Against lite armoured troops like Elven infantry, including WE skirmishers, RBTs really shine and begin to earn their keep. But against anything else they suffer for the large point investment. It all balances out.

Bolt Throwers are the absolute _last_ thing anyone should cry cheese about. My original example of the Dual Dragon + 4 RBTs is about the only reasonable exception.

Voss
18-06-2009, 18:16
How many RBTs are too many? One.

Because they are spectacularly bad. I have posted this many times but once more - on a rate of kills compared to all otehr war machines in the game allowing for points the RBT is the worst one hands down. If it ignored armour for multishot or cost 60pts then 4 would be too much. Not otherwise. Althwen has it right - it takes so much shooting to remove a knight that it just isn't worth it. I'm not sure what units Lord Dan takes to the field but he must be a MSU player if 12 S4 hits decimate them all. 4 cannon can comfortably remove 3 chariots per turn and cripple 2 units of knights in the next if deployed well. I can't see RBTs doing that.

You are doing the chaos player a favour by taking 4 RBTs. An extra unit of dragon princes, 2 eagles and a lion chariot will achieve far far more for the same points. I have not used bolt throwers with high elves or dark elves since 6th edition started - the alternatives are just so much better.

I agree with everything but the dragon princes, thats generally another unit where you are doing your opponent a favor if you take it. Take another lion chariot if it comes to that.

Having an eagle or two is good, but putting 400 points outside your special slots? Silly, silly pointy ears- thats where your army lives or dies.

To put it another way, do you really want to spend 100 points on 6 empire handgunners (but with just 2 wounds total) with a BS bump and a range bump?

Lord Dan
18-06-2009, 18:33
So a near quarter of your army shouldn't be able to take down an enemy unit? :rolleyes:
Of course 4 bolt throwers are capable. My point wasn't regarding the capacity to decimate entire units a turn, but whether or not you should even have that ability.


Play however you like, this is not chess, and it's your army. Don't let others dictate what you play; spend all your money on something you want.
And here is where the debate between WAAC players "it's a game" players begins...

Latro
18-06-2009, 19:16
Being on the receiving end more often then not I also think that they are very good. Not because they will kill a unit of knights each turn ... but because they take away what I need most:

The already limited means Chaos has to influence the most important phase of the game. (Yes, that's still the movement phase.)

Bye bye Warhounds ... Marauder Horsemen ... Characters on their own ... :cries:

We don't see much hills around here though, so that makes it somewhat tolerable ... but I can see how facing a battery of Bolt Throwers on a hill each battle will suck the fun out of the game for some armies.

My personal motto is: try anything you like, but as soon as it wins too much and too easy it's time to change to something new (to keep it interesting for both sides).


:cool:

King_Pash
18-06-2009, 21:50
I don't know. In my opinion there is nothing in the Warhammer game that I would class as 'cheesy'. I think this is just an excuse people use why something beat them hands down. There are things that are a nasty surprise when you first fight them but after that you should learn and adapt your tactics to counter it. I don't think any good general will ever call something cheesy. I think a good general will look at a tough unit and go "Humm, how do I deal with that best?".

But hey, maybe i'm the exception to the majority...

Lord Dan
18-06-2009, 22:23
I don't know. In my opinion there is nothing in the Warhammer game that I would class as 'cheesy'.
Fair enough. That's your opinion.


I think this is just an excuse people use why something beat them hands down.
This is where I have to take objection. Sure, in some cases people act like 10 year olds and claim they would have won under different circumstance (which usually boils down to issues they had with their opponents list). However to assume that 100% of cheese-crying cases is due to this is a bit short-sighted, especially considering the vast number of cases.


There are things that are a nasty surprise when you first fight them but after that you should learn and adapt your tactics to counter it.
There are some lists with synergies that are so insane that there really aren't any tactics to "adapt to", aside from taking a broken army yourself or hiding in a corner the entire game. Things like multi god Daemons, Thorek, and shade Death stars don't have any real solutions that stem from something other than list-tailoring.


I don't think any good general will ever call something cheesy. I think a good general will look at a tough unit and go "Humm, how do I deal with that best?".
I think it's good to approach problems with potential solutions rather than a pessimistic defeatist mindframe. However it would be unfair to call someone's frustration poor generalship, especially when his opponent has specifically constructed a list to make things easier for himself. As a gamer opposite that kind of list it's tempting to sit there and think: "Why am I even playing this game?" That is the essence of "cheese", and that is why so many people get so angry about it.

Johan Chill
19-06-2009, 06:26
Of course 4 bolt throwers are capable. My point wasn't regarding the capacity to decimate entire units a turn, but whether or not you should even have that ability.

That wasn't my point I'm afraid. My point was that there is nothing wrong with expecting such a large investment of points to be able to do such a task. As was mentioned above by another poster, nobody would mind if it were 400 points of infantry doing the job. For many armies, getting rid of 2-3 large infantry blocks is more difficult than getting rid of 4 warmachines with only a couple of elves to mind it. It's all about approach and composition from a tactical stand point. I'm of the opinion that 4 Bolt Throwers is shooting yourself in the foot. The same investment in, to use the above example, infantry is at least reliable as static combat resolution is often a given. If you see what I mean?

Griffery
19-06-2009, 07:54
Bolt Throwers are deadly but all your opponent must do is use some fast cav or flying units. Considering how fragile they can be I would say you can take as many aas you want.

Latro
19-06-2009, 16:19
Bolt Throwers are deadly but all your opponent must do is use some fast cav or flying units. Considering how fragile they can be I would say you can take as many aas you want.

They also happen to be very effective at taking out those units you mention ...


;)

willowdark
19-06-2009, 16:41
RBTs really shine against lite, fast units. So saying that they are vulnerable to warmachine hunters is srt of misleading. Gaining LoS for a charge means getting exposed to 6 st4 shots with no to hit penalties, so massed batteries on hills are actually extremely resilient to traditional warmachine hunters.

However, Chaos has access to the absolute _cheapest_ lite and fast units in the game so should have no trouble "flooding the zone" and getting through that hail of fire. Not to mention that 4 RBTs shooting at Dogs are not shooting at knights or single shooting Warriors or Giants.

And a HE army with 4 RBTs has no eagles, so screening becomes less important, freeing up dogs to hunt warmachines. It really should balance out, especially since WoC are bringing so many more severe threats to the High Elf line much more quickly. Unless you bring 4 RBTs and a Star Dragon, in which case your overall composition is cheesie, not your specific rare build.

King_Pash
20-06-2009, 00:17
Ok, i'll admit. There are people out there who twist a list until it is just too darn hard to defeat that the effort in trying is just not fun. But in this sense I don't think it's the units' fault, it's the player. I seem to find that some lists power a single unit (Chosen etc.) with lots of goodies and characters and in the end it will cost them 40-50% of their army. I just run around that unit and kill off everything else around it.

Anyway, back to original post. I often take 4 RBTs in 2k. Thinking about it now I think I will reduce it to 3 RBTs and spend the 100 points on something else. Unfortunatly, I do belive that HE need a lot of their good units as they are very vulnerable to poor armour saves and low toughness + low number of attacks. *sigh* I wish HE were a bit more 'dirty' and got some evil-esque goodies..

Chicago Slim
20-06-2009, 03:42
What I want to know is; How many bolt throwers is too many?


More than 2 per 1000 points is too many. 2 or less is fine. It says so, right there in the army book.



And has anyone developed any sneaky/useful tactics for using the Eagle Claws?

Put them on a hill, and then let them get charged by crappy fast cavalry or skirmishers. Watch your opponent despair, as your artillery crew handily wins the combat.

Starvid
20-06-2009, 08:05
I'd love to face 4 bolt throwers. Why? Because they are so spectaculary sucky! Four cannons on the other hand, or twelve Goblin bolt throwers... *shivers*

If they were 50-70 points each, yes, then I might worry, but not now.

Too bad really as the Dark Elf bolt thrower looks really good.