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Scyllian
17-06-2009, 21:59
k so awhile back i read descent of angels,and loved it. now ive been an eldar player for almost 2 years and want to start Dark Angels, but dont know anything about their codex. so what makes them better (or worse?) than a codex chapter, like ultramarines?

BigBadBull
17-06-2009, 22:06
Here is one thread kinda asking what they would change.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204119

use the Search function

Deathwing All termies army
Ravenwing all Fast attack army

Super duper Chaplins
Crappy Librarians
Az
Vet squads

Arakanis
17-06-2009, 22:09
Crunch or Fluff?

Crunch, they can field all fearless, all terminator armies with mix-and-match weapon sets

They still have the better Apothecaries and can have like, 3 command squads in a single battle. They can take up to 6 Techmarines and Servitors teams for cheap and include them without taking up any FOC

They have Deathwing assault

Edit: Oh yeah, better Chaplains

That's about it. In basically every other way, Codex: Space Marines is superior.

Fluffwise

Well, I'm a little biased perhaps, but the Dark Angels are pretty much the coolest Chapter in existence. They're both fanatically loyal, look awesome, and have character and interesting internal conflict. And a pretty badass Rivalry with the Space Wolves. (I've had a lot of fun with Space Wolf players, personally)

Whereas say, Ultramarines are bland and boring.

Finally, let me impart the most important piece of advice I can:
When some dolt walks up to you and tells you that Dark Angels are Traitors, just point at Fallen Angels and say "Read it and weep, cupcake!" then walk off cackling like a madman while they stand there confused.

Surgency
18-06-2009, 01:26
I wouldn't exactly say Dark Angels have the better Apothecaries... DA Apoth only get to save 1 wound a turn, SM Apoth give FNP to the squad...

They do have better chaplains and librarians, though

All Dathwing or all Ravenwing armies are nice, or mixing the two, and getting lots of awesome scoring units is great, but unless you're running one of those two armies, or a Dublewing army, then normal Space Marines is the better codex.

exsulis
18-06-2009, 01:33
They do have better chaplains and librarians, though


That had me laughing as the DA has the worst Librarians in Game in fact the person who thought up said powers needs to be fired.

Fearless terminators is kind of a drawback in 5th ed, and mixing, and matching isn't that helpful when your squads are only 5 guys. They are so over costed its not even funny. DWA is a negative in my book, I'd rather walk them onto the board. LRs are better transports, provide more firepower, and you will get there.

We do have the best Veterans though :) I like to call them Deathwatch, or Knights of the Order as I just can't justify the change.

Surgency
18-06-2009, 01:39
They also have unlimited psychic hoods. And the powers aren't bad, they're situational... I've never had a hard time finding good uses for my librarians powers :rolleyes:

AngryAngel
18-06-2009, 04:40
DA libbies are trash, utterly. I have used them, I play them, they are awfull Ezekiel is only worth it for his hood, and his fearless bubble which can anchor a gun line.

That said our Chappies are awesome, we have alot of access to fearless, which I tend to find as a good thing and not a negative. Though I'd rather die then give the xenos one bit of ground.

We have sweet terms, count as troops which means alot now, as well as our bikers which I like more then the vanilla SM counter parts, scouts rules. Our scouts have a higher WS and BS, as well I think our Ven Dread is better then the vanilla counter part. Yes the vanilla dread has a higher WS and BS, but that comes with a quite large price increase for it.

That all said, Sammael is a sweet model, with a jet bike and a plasma cannon on the last imperial jet bike, nice. Azzy has some nice stats, he misses out on the WS 6 but makes up for it with a ton of attacks and 4 wounds throwing down his mastercrafted str 6 power weapon.

As well our codex is a hell of a lot better to read then the vanilla marine dex, which is about 90 percent fan boi tripe.

I don't know many people who have read the DA dex and not fallen in love with them. They are more real, and have short comings that they struggle to defeat, much like many of us.

I'll take my chapter with some human weakness. I'll take my super human warriors with a secret mission, never giving ground no matter the odds. The vanilla marine dex needs to to try and be better then us, for the DA are what it means to be a space marine.

I'd even go so far as to say, the brothers I've met who fight the good fight with me in the DA, are some of the best people I know who play this game we share.

Brothers, this post is for you, Dark Angels forever !!!!

ashc
18-06-2009, 10:48
So is playing with the Dark Angels codex considered neutering yourself in regards to the marine parts of the list (i.e. the non 'wing' parts)?

Ash

mughi3
18-06-2009, 13:51
So is playing with the Dark Angels codex considered neutering yourself in regards to the marine parts of the list (i.e. the non 'wing' parts)?

Ash

Yes
C: DA was a beta test for C: SM as such it was designed for a different edition with a different mindset (stream-lining) which has since been abandonded by GW.
we jokingly call it codex: deathwing because of the fact you can literally do almost everything else in the dex cheaper and with better rules out of C:SM.

Even the scouting RW bike army can be done as a scars army with the khan.

Alot of us are realy annoyed with the dex because they retconned and changed fluff. then they went on to FAQ it for 5th and tell us "yeah it's screwed up, all sort sorts of things need to be changed, but were not gonna fix it. talk to your buddies and make your own hose rules"

:mad:

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-06-2009, 14:36
So is playing with the Dark Angels codex considered neutering yourself in regards to the marine parts of the list (i.e. the non 'wing' parts)?

Ash

I'd say so, yeah. Unless you want to make a Deathwing or a Ravenwing (or a combination) army use the Space Marine book. Pretty much everything you can do with normal marines can be done either better, cheaper or both in the marine book.

So that's it really, Codex Dark Angels is a pair of speciality lists. For anything else just go to Codex Space Marines.

MasterGideon
18-06-2009, 14:54
Mixed Deathwing Squads is a Gem, They come in handy trust me! just balance the squad and make sure you use them well I.E. give them a specific role in your army, dont use them to take out something that can be taken out by your Devs or Assualt Squads etc.....

Do not make them your only "Ace" they are good but you need to use them well, my typiclal load out is Assault Cannon and 3 TH/SS and 1 Pair Lightning claws.

And Remember if you take the Master Of the Deathwing, Deathwing become troops.....a game winner I say.



MasterGideon

ashc
18-06-2009, 15:29
Its a shame the Codex has ended up that way (although it is nice to hear the 'Wings are relatively competitive :) Dark Angels were my first love 11 years ago (the first model i fell in love with was Asmodai!).

Also, hence the Lion El Jonson Avatar! :D

Ash

m_r_parker
18-06-2009, 17:01
I'll echo a lot of the comments above, a lot of the differences do come down to the fact that the DA Codex was a somewhat failed experiment in making new Marines more streamlined, which was changed just before the "proper" codex came out.

Lots of the changes and differences come down to what was changed with the new Marine codex - for the better or for the worse. Armoury entries haven't been retrofitted with new rules, so we don't get the benefits of improved Storm Shields, but we do have unlimited range Phsychic Hoods. We don't get the new Combat Tactics rules, but all of our Company Masters maintain Rites of Battle (having Ld10 across the board is still something I'm very pleased about). Our Librarians stay at Ld9 (except for Ezekiel), but we've kept out Interrogator Chaplains (Masters of Sanctity, for a more direct comparison).

Ultimately, the most distinctive part of the force at the moment is the ability to take Deathwing and Ravenwing Squads as Troops with the inclusion of the correct Company Master. This has been somewhat watered down with the ability for regular marines to take bike lists with Khan (some would say that there's are better), but the Dark Angels are still the only force that can exist solely made up of Terminators, and it is truly staggering to see just how many people actively use this Deathwing "sub-list".

The counter argument is that for regular "Battle Company" style lists, normal Marine lists are both cheaper and better than their Dark Angel counterparts. They have more choices, lots of units are cheaper (some more so than others), and most have a leg-up from the Combat Tactics rule.

However, I come back to the most important thing for me - they just look cooler :)

FerociousBeast
18-06-2009, 17:20
Fluffwise the Dark Angels are very well represented. Probably better than any other loyal chapter other than the Ultras and maybe Wolves. So you won't be disappointed on that front, if you find DA fluff to your liking.

Crunchwise (I like that term, Arakanis, that's a keeper), you really have to split the Dark Angels army down into its common variations, Greenwing, Ravenwing, and Deathwing, to discuss the question.

Greenwing: Anything we can do they can do better. Barring the occasional piece of wargear or boosted stat, the "Green Marine" army (i.e. Dark-Angel-painted models, played with Ultramarine rules) is quantifiably superior in almost every way. Orks, Space Marines, and now Imperial Guard are making old skool marines like Greenwing harder and harder to win with.

Ravenwing: Ravenwing I think still holds its own. Khan gives it a run for its money, but Scout is still better and more useful than Outflank, and the AV14 speeder is darn good even if the jetbike isn't. It goes back and forth, honestly. Both are good lists for what they do, although the Ultramarines do have more cost effective bikes.

Deathwing: The only really unique thing C: DA has left. If you go over to B&C, most of the "Dark Angel" players are really Deathwing players. These lists can still be successful. The 3 point premium for a Deathwing termie over an Ultra termie is really not bad at all, considering what they get in return. I.E. mixed weapons and Deathwing Assault (fearless is nothing to write home about).

Doublewing: This is where two of the above three wings are combined together. These lists can be good and can be bad. Depends upon the configuration. DeathRaven is one of the most common and successful.

Triwing: A grab bag of everything. Personally I think it dilutes the strengths of each without offering too much in return, but some people have claimed to find it successful.

exsulis
18-06-2009, 17:54
They also have unlimited psychic hoods. And the powers aren't bad, they're situational... I've never had a hard time finding good uses for my librarians powers :rolleyes:

Great a hood that works less than 50% of the time is oh so useful. And powers that do nothing on average is just a bad.

Just for a feel on how over costed DA Terminators are, they were worth about 38pts back in 4th so its even less these days.:confused:

What keeps the DW army in semi-decent standings in tournaments is so few people bring that much AP2 weaponry because they expect people to bring droves of armor 3 marines. Granted, enough shots even against a mikey mouse wound alocation is still going to kill them.

The only real bonus DW has is being scoring troops once you pay for a SC.:cries:

DWA has a much better cousin in the DPA that the regular marine codex brings to front. Sure, you pay for Drop pods but they come down, and you don't have to worry about loosing your squads, and the homers are handy for secondary drops.

mughi3
19-06-2009, 10:00
Fluffwise the Dark Angels are very well represented.
In the 3rd edition mini-dex.


the new dex retconned fluff, or just plane got rid of the rules related to it.

RW was never the deathwings alter boys. they were an independant elite strike force specialised as a fast hard hiting force. only the master was required to report back to the inner circle what he saw.
Not to mention all the training they went through that gave them skilled rider and a jink save.

DW was stubborn showing thier resolve not to give ground. they were not stupid(fearless in 5th) and the tactical units likewise were intractable also refusing to give ground in the face of enemy fire.

Our psykers were intimidating as was our presence as a chapter with signiture powerslike weaken resolve as well as our beloved interrogator chaplain asmodai.

We actually might hunt the fallen in every game. or have a good throwdown had we happen to fight spacce wolves.

The new rules gave us flowery backgrounds on certain units or characters but we really lost our fluff as far as the game and rules are concerned.


What keeps the DW army in semi-decent standings in tournaments is so few people bring that much AP2 weaponry because they expect people to bring droves of armor 3 marines. Granted, enough shots even against a mikey mouse wound alocation is still going to kill them.

That unfortunately is quickly going away with the new power curve. most (new) armies now can take so much AP1 or 2 it makes it extremely hard to play DW in a tournament environment. DW is a list you play for fun because it never has been nor will it ever be a super competative list(making every victory that much sweeter). even with my group house-ruling unified wargear rules. it is still a struggle to make them work.

FerociousBeast
19-06-2009, 16:50
"Fluffwise the Dark Angels are well represented" = "Dark Angels have good fluff."

exsulis
19-06-2009, 18:29
That unfortunately is quickly going away with the new power curve. most (new) armies now can take so much AP1 or 2 it makes it extremely hard to play DW in a tournament environment. DW is a list you play for fun because it never has been nor will it ever be a super competative list(making every victory that much sweeter). even with my group house-ruling unified wargear rules. it is still a struggle to make them work.

DW was more competitive in the 3rd ed mini dex. I had a better than average win ratio but now its pretty much in the tube for my DW under the 4th ed dex. House ruling the gear does help but you have to address the points as well.

As FB said the boys over at B&C are hardcore DWer, and some do okay to well at tournaments. That said they generally get these standing because people haven't been bringing a boat load of AP1, or 2. More often its the scenarios as well.

We are talking about a unit that is nearly 20% overpriced here, and so limited that it doesn't function well.

FerociousBeast
19-06-2009, 20:59
20% overpriced? An Ultra termie is 40 pts, a Deathwing termie is 43 pts.

Deathwing was so much better in the 3rd ed codex because of one thing: assault cannons. Specifically, assault cannon spam (2 per squad, each ten points cheaper than now) and better (overpowered?) rending rules.

The single most important problem with Deathwing right now is the single most important problem with all Imperial terminators: the weakness of storm bolters as the basic shooting weapon of a 40-odd-point model.

mughi3
20-06-2009, 03:37
House ruling the gear does help but you have to address the points as well.
psst...unified wargear means-always use the newest rules and points cost.



Deathwing was so much better in the 3rd ed codex because of one thing: assault cannons. Specifically, assault cannon spam (2 per squad, each ten points cheaper than now) and better (overpowered?) rending rules.
Right now thats only part of the problem.
.fearless instead of stubborn-a real kick in the teeth in 5th ed
.5 man squads-you really loose the flexability you had with 10 man and now combat squad. 5 terminators are really not that resiliant against a hard unit. having the option for a larger unit is needed flexability.
.points cost. for their points they really are not that effective and mixing weapons is only marginally helpful.
.the power curve-more and more armies are gaining access to AP1 and AP2 weapon enmass along with units that can out power weapon a terminator squad quite easily.

I still love the concept of deathwing, i just fully understand they are never going to be as good as they were in 4th with the 3.5 FAQ and they will never be super competative as an army build. of course my attitude towards 40K is pretty much not super competative. i play for the fun and the themed armies now as i rarely play in tourneys hense my admech themed DW.

FerociousBeast
22-06-2009, 20:41
.fearless instead of stubborn-a real kick in the teeth in 5th ed

Not so much for Deathwing. As you said, they're only 5 men per squad, and they have a 2+. So if fearless is a problem for them, that means they've lost at least 1/5 of the squad already without dealing any return wounds, and they've pretty much got problems anyway. For Ravenwing fearless totally sucks. For Deathwing, eh.

.points cost. for their points they really are not that effective and mixing weapons is only marginally helpful.

3 points for a guaranteed 50% or 67% of your terminators dropping in when you want them? That alone makes the points worth it. Mixing weapons is just icing, and it's a far better icing than you make it sound. The odd thunder hammer or lightning claw in a shooty terminator squad is good, but the ability to give heavy weapons to choppy terminator squads is great. Especially with the CML not replacing the CC weapon.

LonelyPath
22-06-2009, 22:08
Going by fluff, DA are probably the best chapter out there right now. They have a powerful, well illustrated history filled with fear, shortcomings, secret plots and of course a 10,000 year quest to absolve themselves of their own hidden sins. They also try harder if you ask me. It makes them more human than the other chapters out there, plus being chapter #1 helps them look even cooler, lol.

However, the non Wing elements of the army list do have drawbacks, though our Vets and Chaplains are quite amazing. Our vets can be tactical or assault and are generally cheaper than the Sternguard and Vanguard in C: SM (basic squad costing only 100 points, but sadly no power weapon thrown in for free, but even with 1 added they're still cheaper). The rest of the squads though are more expensive, meaning you'll have fewer troops, but you do get a nifty Ld 10 across the board which can help now and then.

A Double Wing army is the most popular build it seems these days, but I still like my regular DA force being made from C: DA, but I'm a purist like that and refer to make my armies from the codex they belong to, even if it handicaps it in some way.

exsulis
22-06-2009, 23:14
.fearless instead of stubborn-a real kick in the teeth in 5th ed

Not so much for Deathwing. As you said, they're only 5 men per squad, and they have a 2+. So if fearless is a problem for them, that means they've lost at least 1/5 of the squad already without dealing any return wounds, and they've pretty much got problems anyway. For Ravenwing fearless totally sucks. For Deathwing, eh.

5 Guys is pretty much a terrible CC unit, adding in fearless makes them that much less worth it. Fight nids, and the issue will come up more than you'd think. So many attacks coming in, and combat rez; go fig you'd loose to a swarm of 40 creatures.



.
[i].points cost. for their points they really are not that effective and mixing weapons is only marginally helpful.

3 points for a guaranteed 50% or 67% of your terminators dropping in when you want them? That alone makes the points worth it. Mixing weapons is just icing, and it's a far better icing than you make it sound. The odd thunder hammer or lightning claw in a shooty terminator squad is good, but the ability to give heavy weapons to choppy terminator squads is great. Especially with the CML not replacing the CC weapon.

3 points for an ability that SM get for free, and applies to more than just one unit. Also, it only works on turn one, if you don't want them in on turn one, which happens more often then not you've just wasted a useless(but costly) ability.
Mixing weapons in a 5 man squad isn't that helpful as it is too easy to waste the tiny squad. In a larger squad mixed weapons is a viable tactic, it doesn't add to a squad with only 5 guys, it only takes away from them. Great a CC unit gets to fire one missle that is such a boon.

CSM termiators are 13 points cheaper than DA terminators, variable squad size up to 10, and mixed weapons. Sure, once upgraded with fists, and so forth they are up being 3 points cheaper, and they are a whole lot more versitile, and useful.

BA terminators are 8 points cheaper, for basically the same squad, and configuration. They don't have to worry about getting killed DSing, and get to Pod in; don't have to worry about fearless, and they don't worry about a one shot missile.



20% overpriced? An Ultra termie is 40 pts, a Deathwing termie is 43 pts.

Yeah, they are 20% overpriced, I'm not comparing them to the smurfs since they aren't the same unit. They correlate to BA which are priced under 36pts.



Deathwing was so much better in the 3rd ed codex because of one thing: assault cannons. Specifically, assault cannon spam (2 per squad, each ten points cheaper than now) and better (overpowered?) rending rules. Not so much it was the larger squad sizes that made the DW a more viable option, and mixed weapons benifited the squad. The Assault cannon spam was 4th ed, in 3rd the assault cannon was considered to be crap item, and the cyclone was king. Goodie a weapon(assault cannon) that cost as much as a DW termie should, and nerfed in 5th.



The single most important problem with Deathwing right now is the single most important problem with all Imperial terminators: the weakness of storm bolters as the basic shooting weapon of a 40-odd-point model.
Storm bolters rock, like the old combi-guns. Its basically rapid firing when its in range. You basic terminator stipped down is @%-#0ish points depending if the squad is locked to 5 guys, or vaiable squad sizes, and !0 points for a fist/SB, or CC weapons.

Ozendorph
22-06-2009, 23:39
DA advantages these days are limited to fluff and cool robes. That's enough for me to stick with them (albeit with some cursing and fist-shaking) , but winning isn't my first priority.

FerociousBeast
23-06-2009, 02:26
To exsulis, opinion equals fact apparently. Nuff said. Well, nuff said except that you're completely wrong about the price of BA termies and others of your fact statements, like SM termies having free drop pods. Look em up. BA is a free codex.

exsulis
23-06-2009, 23:01
FB if you're not going to read this then please be quiet. And I don't mean skim, mis-read and accuse me of mis-representing the facts.

Considering I have over 1000 battles with the current DA dex, i've played through several editions of the game, and I've worked(play tested, and R&D) on game systems before, so I have some back ground in this kind of thing. Statistics is also one of my strong suits, and you have to look at that when you build a combat system, and what goes with each other.

I never said SM had free drop pods, I said they had a free rule regarding the Deep striking, it fact its better than DWA.

BA terminator - DC equals 3% points. Its not rocket science.

FerociousBeast
24-06-2009, 17:55
Okay, if you're counting the death company model then I see where you're coming from. But that doesn't make Deathwing overpriced. The price of a terminator is 40 points. The fact that BA get another model in the bargain doesn't change this. If one insists on putting the DC in the price of the terminators, then the BA are UNDERpriced. The Deathwing price is absolutely fine.

And as for the SM's "free rule" regarding deep striking, that's better than DWA, that's just nonsense. First, anything you can do with deep strike you can do with DWA. You don't have to deep strike turn 1. So DWA is deep strike plus, and there's no other way to look at it. Second, it's not free for DW or for SM. They both pay for it, it's just that the DW pay a little more for the added flexibility they have in DWA and in weapon selection.

exsulis
24-06-2009, 22:39
DWA only affects DW, the SM variant affects everything that DS in, and thus better.

The ability to have a unit larger than 5 on a CC unit is gold, its worth points as it directly correlates to a units ability to do wounds, and fight. Being stuck at 5 models really hurts any unit. You alsmost never saw anyone field a unit of 5 until the DA dex came out, and then it was because you were forced to have them. IE this drops a units worth. The BA terminators are pretty close to were they should be for a unit locked into 5 guys. if the unit could be larger the unit becomes more of a threat to larger units but being as small as it is its just a weak fire base that doesn't do a whole lot.

SM still get their rule for free, better weapons, and at reasonable point costs. One shot weapons aren't worth more then 5 points. Removing firepower from a ranged unit is bad, removing CC weapons from a CC unit is bad when you only get one use out of it(its just an ablative wound you can't spare).

What made mixing weapons worth while in 3rd ed was haing a unit of 7,or 8 terminators, and having two flamers, simply because those heavy flamers could kill more than 3, or 4 guys(mostly horde armies) each in one turn, or you have your ranged guns(cyclones) firing off, with two CC guys sitting in the front protecting the rest of the unit from getting jumped. The odds are your storm bolters would have been out of range. Larger squads means more ablative wounds, and at 5 guys everyone of them hurts because they fo down so quickly.

FerociousBeast
25-06-2009, 17:37
DWA only affects DW, the SM variant affects everything that DS in, and thus better.I should have asked you this about 20 posts ago, but you need to explain what rule you're talking about. It sounds again like you're talking about drop pods, but drop pods are not free. They add 35 points to a unit. (Also, if you are talking about drop pods, one benefit of DWA over DPs is that DPs HAVE to come in turn one. DWA, you have the OPTION.)

About 5-man squads. Pre-4th-ed-DA, the most common terminator squad size that I saw in games or the Internet was 6. Not a whole lot different from 5, which incidentally was the second most common squad size. 8 or 7 was used only on assault termies when a player was trying to pack a Land Raider Crusader to the gills. Which, it's worth mentioning, meant an investment of 530 to 570 points. 320 points of terminators had BETTER kick ass in CC.