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View Full Version : Considering WoC as my third army - Need your help!



Atropos
18-06-2009, 06:00
Hi there! I'm a Daemon and Vampire player, and I was thinking of starting a third army. My first thoughts were: I want something that actually shoots (I have nothing except for the flamers and, oh well... the banshee's scream) so I considered Dark Elves or Lizardmen. But then I thought that I really didn't like the looks of these armies and fell in love with Warriors of Chaos (even if they have no shooting, well... there's a hellcannon, dudes throxing axes and so on, but not much more, if anything at all). The thing I like most of WoC are the models, they're my favourite in the whole Warhammer range, appart from Daemons (I love Chaos, as you can tell). The new Chaos Knights are breathtaking, and so are the Marauder Horsemen, and the Chaos Warriors, and... oh my god, everything!
I would like to get some advice, please, from other WoC and non-WoC players. Where to start with WoC? I've been told an all-cavalry army is the way to go. So at least I'll buy 2 Chaos Knight units. What are really the must haves? Considering I don't want to spend a lot of money in my army, maybe this all-cavalry thing isn't that bad at all!
Any advice, please?
Many thanks!

Draconian77
18-06-2009, 06:09
You don't have to go all cavalry...that's only net-speak.

In saying that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going all cavalry either.

So, for core you will need(starting out) at least 2 units of Marauder Horsemen and some characters. Frankly, I think anyone who plays a game of WHFB witohut a BsB is mad...(Well, except for Tomb Kings players...) so I would get a mounted one and stick him into a unit of Chaos Knights.

Secondly, most WoC players swear that you need lots of magic, so you may want to look into some Sorcerors. Disk-mounted seems to be popular.

Finally, you might as well take 2-3 units of Hounds, they have plenty of of uses.

So a short shopping list would probably be something like;

(Disc?)Mounted Sorceror x2
Mounted BsB

Box of Knights x2~3
Box of Marauder Horsemen x2~3(Well, it would have to be 3 at 2k)
Box of Hounds x2

After that maybe another Sorceror and some Dragon Ogres or something? To be honest, nothing in the book is really as good, point for point, as the Knights, but against certain armies I find Dragon Ogres to be useful.
For your rare choice maybe an ASF Giant? I'm a big fan of Spawn but I'm not sure that they have many uses in an all mounted WoC army.

Hope this helps. I'd check the WoC tactica before making any purchase if you plan on playing competitive games with the list.

Lord Dan
18-06-2009, 06:13
You don't have to go all cavalry...

...there is absolutely nothing wrong with going all cavalry either.


I thought this deserved to be quoted. ;) It should be noted that I completely agree.

Condottiere
18-06-2009, 06:43
I don't play WoC, but I find nothing wrong with an all cavalry concept, it's just that you should bear in mind that while you now have the initiative, you do have to pick the areas you have to strike more carefully, so that your attack keeps up it's momentum.

Atropos
18-06-2009, 07:46
I like the idea of an all cavalry army, but then again, I LOVE Chaos Warriors on foot. They're slow, of course, but are they still competitive? I want to build a competitive army having both infantry and cavalry, is it possible? The players who I play with are powergamers: I usually don't like to face things like Unkillable Black Dragon Lord + 2 Hydras + Ring of Hotek + ASF Black Guard... I hate that kind of builds; so is there any chance to deal with all those cheesy lists with WoC?
Thank you.

The Red Scourge
18-06-2009, 08:28
Have you considered that Marauder Horsemen with throwing aces have an effective range of 22" with a S4 hit hitting on 4+ at 15 pts a piece? While they're also able to marchblock, hunt warmachines, negate ranks and lots of other nifty stuff that pure missile troops need help to do :)

You might not be able to a conventional gunline/shooty army, but you can do a lot more than charge off with your knights.

Also WoC has a magic phase to deal with the nasty stuff. Nurgle sorceror snipers and Tendrils of Tzeentch Daemon Prince to control magic – another great use for the horsemen is to act as meat shield for your sorcerors, free reforms and feigned flight for unrestricted maneuvering and cheap "extra wounds".

GenerationTerrorist
18-06-2009, 09:58
A nice mix of Cavalry and Infantry works best. If you go all-Cavalry, then you will be seriously outnumbered.

Units of Warriors are best at 12-15, large blocks of Marauders with Flails are as expendable as you can get with Chaos. But they are pretty useful anyway. Knights are the standout unit in the book, so atleast one unit of them is pretty essential (unless you are doing a monster-based army!) just for the hitting power. Warhounds might look useless on paper, but they are one of the most valuable assets the WoC army can have....Great cannon fodder and arrow shields for your more expensive units and not too shabby at Flank attacks either.

You have so many options with the book, and can go multi-mark or just dedicate your entire army to a single god depending on your style of play.

Magic is probably the game winner for most WoC armies. A couple of Sorcerers is definately required in every army. But please look beyond the "Gateway Spam" option if you are going Tzeentch - There are one or two FAR more useful spells in Tzeentch than the Gateway. The Gifts such as Homonculus and Bloodcurdling are also great assets for any Sorcerer/Lord/Exalted.

Let us know how you get on :-)

PS - Yeah, the models are stunning IMHO. Especially the Chosen.

Isabel
18-06-2009, 11:55
I like the idea of an all cavalry army, but then again, I LOVE Chaos Warriors on foot. They're slow, of course, but are they still competitive? I want to build a competitive army having both infantry and cavalry, is it possible? The players who I play with are powergamers: I usually don't like to face things like Unkillable Black Dragon Lord + 2 Hydras + Ring of Hotek + ASF Black Guard... I hate that kind of builds; so is there any chance to deal with all those cheesy lists with WoC?
Thank you.

If you are looking to build a competitive army without spending to much on units you'll end up not useing, my tip is be careful listening to most advice you'll find here haha. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but 90% of posts you'll find here are just obviously not based on competitive, all comers experience. I've learned the hard way, loseing horribly in tourneys and spending tons of money on troops I'll very rarely ever use. But some good info to be found in the tactica none the less.

Atropos
18-06-2009, 12:43
Thank you guys.
The things I know I will be getting:

24-30 Warriors of Chaos (2 units)
15 Marauder Horsemen (3 units)
10 Chaos Knights (2 units)
10 Warhounds (2 units)
1-2 Tzeentch Sorcerors on Disc
1-2 Nurgle Sorcerors
Lord on Daemonic Steed
Juggernaut
The only rare I seem to like is the Shaggoth (I don't like Giants)

Is this a good way to start?
Thank you!

Avian
18-06-2009, 12:48
Have you tried setting up a list based on that? I don't know what points level you are aiming at, but you can make 2500 with that easily. It seems like a good start to me, at least, though perhaps a bit light on cheap throwaway stuff.

Hulkster
18-06-2009, 13:03
I have been making a list very simelar to that and by the looks of it you will have around 3000pts

I think it is an excellent start and you will enjoy them, i am currently building them as my 5th WHFB army

Atropos
18-06-2009, 13:04
I haven't tried to make a list with those models, but I know I want them, to try different builds. I usually play 2000 points, and I know I have much more than 2000 points over there, but then again, I want variety and the possibility to keep changing my list.
What is considered as the cheap throwaway stuff in WoC? Hounds? Horsemen? Marauders? Everything else looks quite expensive.

Avian
18-06-2009, 13:12
Small units of marauder infantry, warhounds, spawn. Probably not Horsemen, but they are useful in being fast.

willowdark
18-06-2009, 13:18
A Nurgle Palanquin will turn a 16 man unit of Chaos Warriors into full ranks with static 5, and grant an immunity to fear and lend 6 poison attacks. Make this guy a BSB and give the unit MoN and you have a pretty solid center that is tough to get points out of, but isn't unfair the way Nurgle Daemon infantry is.

MSU Marauders are nice too. For 80 points you can have 2 units of 10 to walk beside you Warriors and stick their necks out to get in the enemy's way. For 90 points you can have 3 x 5 Warhounds, meaning that for 170 points you get _5_ screen/bait units. That goes a long way towards making up the points sinks the rest of the army can be. Add 2 units of Marauder horse and for just about 1/4 of you army you've got 7 extremely fast and/or extremely expendable road blocks to screw up your enemies own bait and flee tactics. In a lot of ways Warriors play that game better than anyone

Dragon Ogres. For 308 points - I know it sounds horrible - you get 4 with 3 st7 attacks a piece, and with 4 wounds a piece your enemy would have to do 8! wounds to reduce this unit's combat potential very significantly. I know that Dual Knights look like the way to go, but I think that in many ways 4 Dragon Ogres are really the best compliment unit. While most opponents will be shaking, trying to devote all of their resources to redirect and flank your Knights, your DOs will be bringing their 12 st7 attacks to them just as fast. At M7, st7 and 4 wounds I truly believe that DOs are the best Ogre Class infantry in the game.

The models are something close to atrocious though, if you ask me, but I've seen some nice conversions based on Dark Elf Cold Ones. The scale is off so it looks a little tricky, but you could probably make up for it by working in some Kroxigor parts or some such. Either way I think that DOs offer a great opportunity to move away from "all cav" without sacrificing effectiveness. There are just some things that Ogres are better at than Knights.

Hellcannon. If you like shooting than I really think you should work this in. If you can, i know the points are starting to add up. I think that guess range weapons really involve you in the shooting phase more than just rolling dice, trying to anticipate scatter and all. It is basically a Trebuchet that forces a panic check, which is nice. On top of that, it is absolutely immune to traditional warmachine hunters. In fact, either army that I play would be forced to just stay as far away from it as I can in case it Rampages. 205 can be a lot but it creates a problem for most armies, especially if you role well for scatter and actually start forcing those panic tests. I like this thing a lot.

PeG
18-06-2009, 13:39
Hounds are great for screening, redirecting hunting mages, warmachines etc. I woul take at least one more unit. Marauders are cheap but their low movement makes it hard to use them for meaningful things. But they do provide cheap bodies which is useful against horde armies or some elves (low T, Low armour, low S etc).

Draconian77
18-06-2009, 13:49
Thank you guys.
The things I know I will be getting:

24-30 Warriors of Chaos (2 units)
15 Marauder Horsemen (3 units)
10 Chaos Knights (2 units)
10 Warhounds (2 units)
1-2 Tzeentch Sorcerors on Disc
1-2 Nurgle Sorcerors
Lord on Daemonic Steed
Juggernaut
The only rare I seem to like is the Shaggoth (I don't like Giants)

Is this a good way to start?
Thank you!

A Lord on a Daemonic Steed eh? Most WoC players hold the Chaos Lord in low favour, maybe look into a Sorceror Lord and replace one of the Hero level Mages with a BsB?

Secondly, Shaggoths are also one of the units in the book people (tend to)shy away from, due simply to their price(in points). If I remember correctly the saying goes "Why buy the Shaggoth when you can buy Dragon Ogres with more wounds/attacks/etc)" You may want to proxy both it and a unit of Droges before making the purchases, to find out which works for you.

willowdark
18-06-2009, 13:52
Shaggoths benefit a lot from being single monsters. They bring a lot of power on a small (relatively) base that pivots instead of wheels.

I'd rather have DOs, though.

Atropos
18-06-2009, 14:11
The thing is I don't quite like non of the rare slots. I love core and special choices in WoC (I love the idea of Warriors of Chaos with huge and shiny armours marching towards the opponent), but I don't quite like the rare slots, mabe I shouldn't field any at all! Or maybe a Hellcannon, who knows? Is there any general consensus on which is the "best" rare WoC choice?

Thanks again!

Troah
18-06-2009, 14:49
From fighting Warriors of Chaos I find cavalry supported with marauders on foot with great weapons are a nice comonation.

Draconian77
18-06-2009, 17:18
The thing is I don't quite like non of the rare slots. I love core and special choices in WoC (I love the idea of Warriors of Chaos with huge and shiny armours marching towards the opponent), but I don't quite like the rare slots, mabe I shouldn't field any at all! Or maybe a Hellcannon, who knows? Is there any general consensus on which is the "best" rare WoC choice?

Thanks again!


Their best rare choice? Well, from where I'm sitting it's the Spawn. I would never leave home without a pair of the critters.

You can use them for clearing skirmishers out of terrain and getting rid of march blockers, etc, etc. Having(essentially) 360 LoS on something that is T5 and Unbreakable is ace.

lord mekri
18-06-2009, 17:42
Thank you guys.
The things I know I will be getting:

24-30 Warriors of Chaos (2 units)
15 Marauder Horsemen (3 units)
10 Chaos Knights (2 units)
10 Warhounds (2 units)
1-2 Tzeentch Sorcerors on Disc
1-2 Nurgle Sorcerors
Lord on Daemonic Steed
Juggernaut
The only rare I seem to like is the Shaggoth (I don't like Giants)

Is this a good way to start?
Thank you!


this is pretty good so far.
the only changes i would suggest is change the lord on demon steed to a exalted on barded steed (and have him with one of your knight units). the demon steed is ok, but the bigger base size makes him awkaward with knights. also, a chaos lord is a bit overkill. only take him if you really want 100pts of items.
and i would only go with 1 unit of chaos warriors. by droping the second unit, you can take 2 blocks of marauders on foot, to gaurd the warrios flanks. do not underestimate marauaders on foot. for 140pts you have ws4 i4 4+as in close combat.

my normal 2000pt army i favor is:
2 exalted heroes on steed (one with runesword, one with axe of khorne))
a level 2 sorcer (i play around with the marks, and almost always give him the book and familar)
2 blocks a marauder on foot (one armored, one with gw)
1 block of warriors (shield usually)
2 units of horsemen (fully decked out)
2 units of knights (one with banner of rage, one with warbanner)

no marks other than maybe the mage.

i have great success with this list (i havent faced too many of the standard cheese builds out there becuase my game club likes armies not gimmicks) but this is a versital enough list to give you an decent chance.

Isabel
18-06-2009, 22:06
I agree, my favourite rare choice is the shaggoth. I just dont like the models for any of the others and my armies appearance is big to me! haha I know it doesnt help winning games having a pretty army but it makes the game more enjoyable for me. And the Shaggoths are a great choice, you really just need to pick your battles with them carefully. As a stand alone unit he probably wont do to well, but assist other units with him and he'll do fantastic.

Brother J
18-06-2009, 23:31
Really anything you do with chaos can be good, it's more or less about the players and not the army. With chaos you have to watch out for Lore of Metal, and of course spells like Black Horror on your marauders. So dispel scrolls are nice to have, as well as running magic heavy.

Avoid sending your knights into units of Black Guard with ASF, unit strength of 15, with the champion rocking a magic weapon. You should be able to withstand the strikes, and get most of your unit to attack back, but the problem is the knights being held up for one turn too many. Send them after the lightly armoured units that aren't going to be walking around with Stubborn all game. If you are going to attack units like that with the knights, try for a flank charge while another unit takes the front.

Chaos Warriors..Probably the most awesome core units in the game. However without any upgrades they're 15 points a model. With the optimal upgrades, 17 for shield and halberd against armies that have decent armour. You can also roll with shield and additional hand weapon to get into close combat against armies that have light armour but heavy/semi heavy shooting like High Elves and Dark Elves. Your units are going to be small, and easily outnumbered, so you might as well equip them with everything they're going to need to get the job done. (Shield and whatever weapon isn't needed but helps against tougher armies. Marks are great, but quite costly if used for everything. Always give full command to Warriors to limit the number of damage taken from enemy characters that are close combat oriented.)

Those two units are the mainstay of just about every chaos army. You'll find them in all types. Cavalry will have Knights, mixed with have both, Infantry will have warriors. There's only been on occasion I've heard of nothing but Marauders and characters (Works amazingly from what I hear.)

Other units you will need no matter what...Warhounds. Warhounds don't do much at all, but they do block your frenzied units, and a lot of the time they take shots from enemy fire just so they can get to your unit behind them which means less focus elsewhere. They're not going to kill much of anything unless it's against Elves and they strike first from the charge.

Giants and Shaggoths..The only time when I'd consider taking one of these, is with the other one being on the table as well. Something just seems scary about a giant and shaggoth hobbling towards the enemy and them not being entirely too sure which one to shoot down first. By the time one or the other is gone against medium ranged armies you'll have one in combat.

IkuTurso
19-06-2009, 18:30
Some things I would like to point out, units of warriors are best kept in 12-15 models,you want at least 2x5 knights, 3-4 units of hounds is good,maybe more for khorne-heavy army.
Marauder horsemen are best choise for core unless you field 3 units of warriors. If you do field warriors a warshrine is a good idea, as well as going magic heavy to bring the fight to enemy before turn 5. a chariot isnt bad either going with your warriors flank.

lvl 4 sorc
lvl 2 sorc
lvl 2 sorc
mounted hero (maybe bsb)
warriors as many as you find best
2 knight boxes
2 hound boxes
marauder horsemen box
chariot or 2 (for shrine)

I'd say thats a pretty good start, oh and you want the sorcerers mounted or disc'd, I dont understand why gw even sells so many footed sorcerer models.