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Geep
19-06-2009, 10:34
It wouldn't surprise me if a thread like this existed already, but I couldn't find one...

Does anyone out there have experience playing with both Imperial Armour and Apocalypse rules?
What things have been improved or weakened by the move to Apocalypse rules?

I had thought that Apoc generally made everything stronger- baneblades gained a 7" blast and became cheaper (if I remember correctly), and didn't really lose anything.
Recently though I was comparing IA Tyranids with their Apoc versions and most of these have been nerfed- sometimes pretty badly. The most obvious example to me is the Trygon- Apocalypse makes it 10 pts more expensive, its Mass Point is now just an extra wound, it's lost its tail attack, but- most importantly I think- It can no longer deep strike into combat.

Have I missed something in these rules? Have other giant creatures and vehicles been hurt by Apocalypse? Does anyone have reasons why these changes were made?

I know this thread is probably a bit behind the times, but I only just got access to IA rules for comparison...

Vaktathi
19-06-2009, 10:37
the BB actually gained a 10" blast.

That said, Superheavies lost their ability to run units over (e.g. hitting models in base contact with a WS1 S5 powerweapon attack in the assault phase), but did become harder to kill and gained much better main weapons.

Hellebore
19-06-2009, 10:42
Mass points were SOOOOO stupidly broken. good riddance.

Hellebore

Kelderaith
20-06-2009, 01:31
I don't really know for sure how mass point worked, but tyranids apocalyptic units are such crap that it must not have been that bad (I think it basically meant that they had double or triple their wounds no?).

Tyranids in apocalypse are basically just formation of troops, that's all there is really, every apo units I have seen in that army just plainly blows (except the hierophant, but yah... big FW models...). I mean scythed hierodule anyone? 600-700 points for a +1W carnifex with 1-2 rules stapled on top? kidding me right?

Vaktathi
20-06-2009, 01:40
I don't really know for sure how mass point worked, but tyranids apocalyptic units are such crap that it must not have been that bad (I think it basically meant that they had double or triple their wounds no?).

Tyranids in apocalypse are basically just formation of troops, that's all there is really, every apo units I have seen in that army just plainly blows (except the hierophant, but yah... big FW models...). I mean scythed hierodule anyone? 600-700 points for a +1W carnifex with 1-2 rules stapled on top? kidding me right?

Try a heirophant. Those things are shooty as hell, killier than almost anything, incredibly fast, and ridiculously hard to put down to to their solid save, high T and huge number of wounds.

The heirodule is mediocre, but the heirophant is a monster in every possible meaning.

Epicenter
20-06-2009, 02:39
The Baneblade was generally made tougher, though I miss the BS4.


I don't really know for sure how mass point worked, but tyranids apocalyptic units are such crap that it must not have been that bad (I think it basically meant that they had double or triple their wounds no?).

Just because the Hierophant model has physical stability and price issues that keep it from being put on the board doesn't mean it's bad. It's ridiculously overpowered.

The Hierodule is poor, I agree. If that's all people bring, yeah, I can see why you think Tyranid GCs are pants.

The Trygon is good, but it's basically a formation - get it with the Raveners and it can do a lot of damage and make a Tyranid highway.

The Harridan is actually either really sucky or pretty powerful, depending on how your group interprets the "flyer-that-isn't-a-flyer" rules of it.

Though the Malanthrope isn't a GC (it's an MC) it got a significant boost when they made it a MC. Fleet + Power Weapon Attacks (at S6) + Instant Death is a horrendously nasty combo. It kills most multi-wound units in one hit.

Kelderaith
20-06-2009, 03:19
Wow 2 people responses that probably took my own response really sideway, I completely agree that a hierophant is good, it's pretty much the whole one that really warrant the point cost though as far as I've seen.

Don't mind me much though, I don't play apocalypse much, but just leafing through books our own LGS has as demonstrator, most Tyranids Apo units have either left me "meh" or downright "wow sucks to be nid" haha. I agree Malanthrope is good, plus it definitly got the style, but it's hardly a apoc unit with its measly point cost. Trygon seems ok, but a bit underwhelming rulewise (the model really really really is awesome though) since it seems like a faster, not much tougher carnifex for quite a high point cost (all thing considered). I am really wondering if they'll change its rule when they'll release the plastic model like they did for most plastic release (baneblade/stompa all that jazz).

Also, sorry to have derailed the threat a bit with my ranting.

Geep
20-06-2009, 08:07
The main problem I have with the Gargantuan creatures is that the opponent must fall back 1" at the end of combat (and if they run away you cannot catch them). This means, unless your opponent decides to assault with a unit of terminators or similar, you only get 1 round of combat per 2 player turns. This really limits their combat effectiveness.
I really like the look of the rules for a Barbed Heirodule and Heirophant (both capable of decent shooting), and even the Scythed Heirodule's shooting is ok, but I'd prefer tyranid Gargantuan Creatures to do the most damage in combat.