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View Full Version : WOC Hero/ Lord Choice.... NEED HELP



untimention
19-06-2009, 19:20
Following some of my threads people wil notice i played my WOC on Monday for the first time and got slaughtered..... so i wanted to look at my list and see what i could do.

Finding tons of rules out im happy with my troops however i wanted to change my lord/heroes choice as they didnt perform well.

I orginally had:

1 Chaos hero on juggernaught with MOK, shield, crown of everlasting conquest and armour of morrslied.

1 Sorcerer level 2, MOT, DOT and a dispell scroll

1 sorcerer lever 1, steed, power familiar, 1 dispell scroll.

i am also going to drop a unit of knights... this gives me 811pts to play with.


Now i have sat down and thought about this and what i want to do is create flying choices as i feel my WOC list needs this esp to deal with war machines.

I've made my list and im not sure if im happy with it as im loosing 8 models to gain two.... (please note this is designed to face an army such as dwarfs, gun fire heavy)

- 1 Sorcerer lord, Level 4, MOT, DOT, Conjoined hormunculus, 2 dispell scroll, steam of corruption

- 1 Daemon prince, MOT, Level 2 sorcerer, blood curdling roar

this actually hits a massive 815pts


Obv this really depends on who i am facing... the prince takes a huge chunk of points so if i didnt want him in an army but needed a strong sorcerer lord i would drop the level 2 dude and the knights in my original list... thus i would have

- 1 Sorcerer lord, Level 4, MOT, DOT, Conjoined hormunculus, dispell scroll, steam of corruption, power familiar

- 1 sorcerer lever 1, steed, power familiar, 1 dispell scroll.

- 1 Chaos hero on juggernaught with MOK, shield, crown of everlasting conquest and armour of morrslied.

I want some warseer help as it's helped a lot in the past...... other options would be welcome... please note this is all mounted list (apart from daemon prince) and designed against a gun fire army

Avian
19-06-2009, 20:08
What points level are you at? Both Sorcerer Lords and Daemon Princes are Lords and you could only take both a 3k or above.

And a Hero can't get the Crown AND Armour of Morrslieb.

Would you mind posting your army list?


Going on first impressions, your choices seem a bit wishy-washy to me. A fighter character with no actual weapon is not something I would take, and the same for a level 2 Sorcerer with no item to help with spellcasting.

Isabel
19-06-2009, 20:12
Against a gunline? Your sorcerer will be exposed to alot of fire and has little protection from it, he'd easily die. You might want to give him the enchanted shield and golden eye of tzeentch for a good normal save and a 3+ sv vs ranged attacks.

You might want to also add Mantle of Chaos to the Daemon prince to help against ranged attacks. If you have these two guys out flying around alone (which they have to be) They will have to see the enemy to cast spells, which means they can see, and shoot, you. Alot of points invested in those two models so you should protect them well. I'd give up Blood curdling, stream of corruption, conjoined and a few other things to get these items. I honestly dont see those gifts helping you much against a gunline.

I'm assumeing you're playing 3k+ games since you have two lord choices. I personally prefer the commonly suggested (here on warseer) 1 lvl 4 MoT along with 3 lvl 2 Nurgle sorcerers. In my opinion the toughest magic combination for WoC

untimention
19-06-2009, 21:02
oppsss.

OK it's only a 2k list.

What options are best for a 2K list against gunline in terms of lord/ heroes around this point value....

the rest of the list inc 3 units of marauder horsemen... warhounds, knights and warshrine.

Whitehorn
19-06-2009, 21:18
I don't take any WOC Lords in 2k. That's my key to winning. Try it out.

untimention
19-06-2009, 21:23
i didnt in my original list bu they got battered well and truely.

Avian
19-06-2009, 21:29
Against gunlines characters aren't usually all that necessary apart from providing Leadership to help with Panic tests, and you can solve those problems with the appropriate Mark if you so desire. One good option is Slaaneshi characters on steeds to surprise-charge fragile enemy units ASAP.

Brother J
20-06-2009, 01:51
Who was it that you faced again?

1) You can't have that many points of magic items on a Hero.

2) I'd not set a hero up like that if he's going to go after War Machines firing at you from the other side of the field. Give him the mark of Tzeentch, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, Shield and whatever else you'd like, but you want to make it so he's good at what he's meant to be good at. This could even involve using Blood Curdling Roar from him so that if he falls short on a turn by a few inches, he can fire in some S1 shots and possibly kill both crew members off.

The juggernaut I've not seen actually used for much of anything but "Hahaha, I've got a
-234234242 armour save!" Which is a pain in it's own right I suppose, but nothing a 1 can't solve.

IkuTurso
20-06-2009, 11:26
Seems to me where your going wrong is taking the "middle way" of magic, aka 7pd, which is basically a lot of points but isnt going to hurt any enemy with a decent magic defense.

So either drop your magic to 1 lvl 1 scroll caddy and some magic resistance,
or go all out 9-12pd, that eats your enemys magic defense and still packs lot of punch to hurt him.

lvl4, 2 lvl2's and a combat hero or bsb is a good character setup.

untimention
20-06-2009, 11:53
The problem is that 1 level 4, 2 level 2's and a hero is rather expensive when you start adding up the points....

Brother j - i was facing dwarfs

PeG
20-06-2009, 20:55
If you think magic heavy is to many points go magic light. In between is just a waste of points. Fast units that are immune to panic is key to beating gunlines. Since you are facing dwarfs you also need some hitting power in contrast to empire or elves.

untimention
20-06-2009, 21:23
i have a game on Monday against Dark Elves.... so i've done a mixture...

Gone for a lord ( i know a lot more points but he is very hittie and i can imagine the DE will have sone strong troops and characters.

Chaos lord - juggernaught, MOK, Shield, Crown of everlasting conquest and armour of ... (4+ inv save)

Sorcerer level 2, MON, Steed, power familiar, dispell scroll, bloodcurdling roar...

Sorcerer level 2, MOT, DOT, Dispell scroll, conjoined homuncules (however you spell it)..

I believe that to be a fair old mix esp against DE as he could be magic heavy or have some strong fighters.

Brother J
20-06-2009, 22:33
If you think magic heavy is to many points go magic light. In between is just a waste of points. Fast units that are immune to panic is key to beating gunlines. Since you are facing dwarfs you also need some hitting power in contrast to empire or elves.

I agree. The thing with dwarves is they're heavily armoured for the most part compared to a lot of other armies out there. (Pretty much meaning Chaos, Brets, and the occasional steam tank.)

They also aren't going to chase you down or use tiny little units to bait your frenzied units. Let's face it..they really can't unless they're using a Gyrocopter. So Khornate, shield and halberd warriors would be nice, as well as you finding a way to get to the other side of the field quickly.

The run down is..Dragon Ogres, Knights, Horsemen, Warhounds, Spawn when you don't roll poorly, Shaggoth, Giant, Ogres, and I may be missing something else here, possibly trolls, being your fastest units. I'd suggest using some of them but making sure you screen from a Dwarven gunline at least minimally.

Knights, Dragon Ogres, Chariot, don't bother with the Giant or Shaggoth it's cannon fodder at this particular match up. Screen all three units, but make sure they're not going to run anywhere. Keep the DO's near the general for leadership just in case (I can't recall what their leadership is offhand, 7 or 8.) Screen the Knights and chariot, (Might as well give the chariot a mark of Slaanesh or Khorne, Slaanesh being the cheaper and keeps them from running away when they suffer 1 wound from enemy fire.)

It's simply about playing smart, and having a decent bit of luck. Even the smartest and most well organized general won't make it to the enemy quick enough to do serious damage without the slightest bit of luck.

untimention
21-06-2009, 07:58
It's actually an all mounted list so i was units 2 units of warhounds, 3 units of marauder horsemen, 3 units of knights and a warshrine.... for my next match im going to be using

Chaos lord - juggernaught, MOK, Shield, Crown of everlasting conquest and armour of ... (4+ inv save)

Sorcerer level 2, MON, Steed, power familiar, dispell scroll, bloodcurdling roar...

Sorcerer level 2, MOT, DOT, Dispell scroll, conjoined homuncules (however you spell it)..

5 units of warhounds for screening

3 units of marauder horsemen (flails and throwing axes)

2 units of knights

a warshrine

Anointed_By_Filth
21-06-2009, 08:30
It's actually an all mounted list

There's the problem I see with what you're facing. Run blocks, don't go all mounted, things on horses cost lots more points than things on feet, and a small army is hard to win anything with.

Drachen_Jager
21-06-2009, 17:47
Why are you dropping a unit of Knights? You said your troops are the part that is working well for you so why sacrifice the good parts of your army to bolster the bad?

Take 1 lvl 1 sorcerer, 2 scrolls. 2 Lvl 2s will just be a waste of points. Use the extra points to buy back your Knights. You have a Lord with no magic weapon? What's up with that? Armor of Morrsleib is pretty sucky, since you'll mostly be facing magic attacks in close combat (since you have to challenge) better to buy the enchanted shield and spend a few points on a decent weapon.

I can't really see where all the points are going... You must have 2k+ to field the lord but I can't for the life of me see 2k used up in that list...

untimention
21-06-2009, 18:46
Chaos Lord (210) on Juggernaught (50) MOK (15) Shield (10) Crown of everlasting conquest (50) armour of morrslied (35) – 370pts
Frenzy, 4+ ward save, regeneration. Jugg causes fear.


Chaos Sorcerer (85) - level 2 (35) MON (20), chaos steed (barded) (16), power familiar (25), 1 dispel scroll (25) Bloodcurdling roar (20) – 226pts
Sorcerer – 2+ save, power familiar – 1+ dice to the pool. MON (-1 shoot and WS)


Chaos sorcerer (85) - level 2 (35), Mark of Tzeentch (20), disc of Tzeentch (20), Dispel scroll (25), Conjoined homunculus (20) – 205pts
Disc causes fear, fly and has flaming attacks
MOT = 6+ ward save - +1 when casting. Homunculus - +D3 to a cast

5 Marauder Horsemen - Mark of Slaanesh (10), Flails (2), Throwing Axes (2) Light armour (1), Musician – 106
Horse lords – Re-Roll pursuit
Fast cavalry (can move and shoot) – MOS – immune to fear, terror and panic


5 Marauder Horsemen - Mark of Slaanesh (10), Flails (2), Throwing Axes (2) Light armour (1), Musician – 106


5 Marauder Horsemen - Mark of Slaanesh (10), Flails (2), Throwing Axes (2) Light armour (1), Musician – 106


5 Chaos Warhounds - 30points

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30points

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30points

5 Chaos Warhounds - 30points

6 Chaos Warhounds - 36points

5 knights of chaos - mark of khorne (30), full command (50), blasted standard (40) - 320pts
5+ ward save against all attacks made in the shooting phase. 1+ armour save


5 knights of chaos – standard (20) with banner of rage (35) - 255pts
Banner = Frenzy that they can’t loose
Cause fear

1 chaos warshrine - mark of tzeentch (20) - 150pts
MOT = 3+ ward save
Giver of glory – unit within 12” gets a gift of the gods


Total points: 2000pts

Avian
21-06-2009, 20:07
But have you given your general an actual weapon? Nooooo.
:wtf:

untimention
21-06-2009, 20:09
well i could but what? The model is armed with an Axe so all i can really give him is axe of khorne (+1S + killing blow)

Avian
21-06-2009, 20:14
You could give him the Sword of Might (+1 S - killing blow) ;)

untimention
21-06-2009, 20:16
as i said, the model is armed with an axe (GW standard)... i dont mind loosing some puppies to beef up my lord but he's already had a lot of points spent on him and i need some fodder to soak up the fire power and protect the knights.

The Chaos Runesword looking interesting at 50points (if i loose the armour) however the model as i said above is armed with an axe

Avian
21-06-2009, 20:24
Well, uh, so what? Call it an Axe of Might if you prefer, or a Chaos Runeaxe.

Isabel
21-06-2009, 20:48
Yea, as far as magic items I'd just change the name of the weapon. I cant imagine anyone would actually be picky enough to complain about something so minor. I've used "Chaos Runeaxe" plenty of times and no one has ever cared in the least. That was untill I just started giving him a flail for str 7, one round of combat is usually all he needs.

untimention
21-06-2009, 20:59
ohhh see im still very much a newbie to playing games.

So in terms of the magic weapons it doesnt really matter about the shape of them? obviously i know the key is the rules... would this be the same for the glaive of putrefaction? (whats a glaive?) sorry dont laugh....

i would imagine with armour/shields its not something you could do.... hmmm maybe tempted to take the chaos runaxe then instead of the armour of morrslied

Isabel
21-06-2009, 21:11
Axes and swords fall under hand weapons. It's really no big deal changing them because they all have the same effects and functions. If it was a magic item with a differant weapon effect, for instance a lance, you would need to model that on to the character. All of our magic items in WoC are all considered hand weapons though so you shouldnt have a problem using any of them.

Avian
21-06-2009, 21:13
Yes, there is no requirement that what the model carries accurately matches the description in the army book (which is often too brief to make much sense anyway). If the weapon follows the rule of a more specialised weapon (spear, great weapon, etc.), then it's nice if the model has some resemblance. Shields are much easier, but when it comes to body armour, it might look like anything (compare High Elf heavy armour and Orc heavy armour, for example).

Isabel
21-06-2009, 21:15
Sorry, Avian is correct. It's not actually a rule to model specific weapon types on to the model to represent a magic item, it just helps.

untimention
21-06-2009, 21:23
oh kool...

So we think Chaos Runeaxe over the armour (he has a 0+ save and regeneration) whereas he is going to need to take out other characters (if he lives) while the knights take out the other troops.

Ahh see it never does really say anywhere in the army book (this doesnt need to be shown on the model) so i've always thought (i like that).... ive actually just bought some stuff so i can model a chaos lord with sword (using skulltakers sword)

Lord Dralnu
21-06-2009, 22:39
I've found a good combo with a Khorne Lord on a jugger is to give him the Axe of Khorne and a Runeshield. Between his 6 str 6 attacks and the jugger's 3 str 5 he'll do damage to rank and file troops, and in challenges the killing blow is great, plus negating the enemy's magic items make him tough to hurt between his toughness and 0+ save.

After those two options if not running chosen I toss him Favor of the Gods as well. It rounds out his points nicely and why not include it for a reroll on the table?

untimention
21-06-2009, 22:47
haha.... well ill see how this weapon works out... +1 WS that means he's WS9, +1S so he's strength six and he has 7 attacks... then obv the juggernaught.

0+ save and if he is facing a character or fire powe then he has regeneration as well...

my only worry as per my last battle is things like bolt throwers... sorry no armour save so only regeneration.... YULP !!

Isabel
22-06-2009, 01:04
plus negating the enemy's magic items make him tough to hurt

It only negates the characters magic weapons, not all items unfortunatly. It kinda kills the value of the shield in my opinion.

Drachen_Jager
22-06-2009, 01:09
And of course it's useless against Demons because they don't have "magic weapons".

Brother J
22-06-2009, 04:48
Axes and swords fall under hand weapons. It's really no big deal changing them because they all have the same effects and functions. If it was a magic item with a differant weapon effect, for instance a lance, you would need to model that on to the character. All of our magic items in WoC are all considered hand weapons though so you shouldnt have a problem using any of them.


Exactly as stated here. If GW intended everyone to micromanage every little detail, and have everything EXACTLY as it should be, there wouldn't be a need for FAQ's after books are released. They would also provide all Character models with an array of attachments and arms with different weapons in order to provide every single magic item in the army list. That would be quite costly, wouldn't it? Woh man, all those talismans...

You are 100% fine giving a guy who's actual model has an axe, the Sword of Might, or any other sword if you'd like. Just change the name to Axe of Might and call it a day really. Each individual character has their own personality, who knows, perhaps they had a "sword of might" crafted into an axe so as to better suit their fighting style, e.g. decapitating people with one swing.


Oh, and I absolutely hated Runeshield when I realized it was just weapons and not other items like armour which is far more important to negate so you can kill the person -_- God, it'd make real quick work of some...I mean all..special characters.

Lord Dralnu
22-06-2009, 22:20
It only negates the characters magic weapons, not all items unfortunatly. It kinda kills the value of the shield in my opinion.

Right, of course, I misspoke. However, in terms of the challenges I feel the shield is still a great value considering a lot of the offense that will come back at us would be derived from a magical weapon on the enemy character. However, I haven't played many games with the build I provided so after a few tests I'll let you know if the shield was worthwhile.

untimention
23-06-2009, 13:34
Was a great game... my lord survived but didnt get into combat due to units blocking him cough warhounds... and thus slowed down.

My sorcerers well they did better then the last game however the winds of magic weren't blowing in this game... both of us ended doing more damage to ourselves then the enemy.

Lost the game to DE however lasted a lot longer and learnt tons.

Started a new thread for my new army list i did over lunch for my next match which is very different.