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bryne3
22-06-2009, 06:13
It maybe that i play a Chaos Deamons Army but Ive played High Elves Like 1000 times and never beaten them. Please if it is possible to beat high elves tell me here!

Condottiere
22-06-2009, 06:19
It is.

Though you may have to take a step back and consider that the problem may lie with your understanding of your army and its strengths and weaknesses.

In the Tactics sub-forum there should be plenty of material to consider.

Nicha11
22-06-2009, 06:22
Shooting, Impact Hits and Good Armour Saves ruin High Elves.

isidril93
22-06-2009, 07:31
Shooting, Impact Hits and Good Armour Saves ruin High Elves.

he says he plays daemons :D

slaanesh heralds + units, keeper of secrets and flamers is the way to go imo

Hulkster
22-06-2009, 08:06
chariots

anything with ASF

horrors

LoC or a KoS

high mobility, so seekers are good

havoc626
22-06-2009, 08:09
Well, to help us out, what type of lists have you tried thus far and what does the HE opponent usually use?

ICEMANQ
22-06-2009, 08:11
The standard Bloodthirster of Cheese load out should help. Apart from against dragon princes who will be immune to your flaming attacks.

Tekomandor
22-06-2009, 09:12
Me and someone else who dosn't go on this forum are the source of this, I run a star dragon 2 mages and the banner of sorcery + phoneix guard another block of elite infantry and 2 units of archers.
he runs khorne and nurgle

bryne3
22-06-2009, 09:14
I play a largly Khornate and Nurgle army with:
Lords/heros:
herald of khorne on blood chariot.
Herald of nurgle(battle standed bearer)
Core:
2X Bloodletter
1X Plaughe Bearers
1X nurglings
Special:
1X Flesh Hounds
Rare:
1XScreamers

Tekomandor
22-06-2009, 09:18
Note: We have never versed one on one, just big multi-player battles the other guy has an army simlar to that one in size. I don't just win with my list, I reguraly used beat 7th ed dark elves untill the guy went to a differnet school and we have Very differnet schedules.

dsw1
22-06-2009, 12:39
Core:
1X nurglings

Rare:
1XScreamers

Just so you know, Nurglings are special and so are Screamers.

Brother J
22-06-2009, 16:30
chariots

anything with ASF

horrors

LoC or a KoS

high mobility, so seekers are good

High Elves have ASF on every unit aside from non-elven models like Warhawks.

Even if the ASF's cancel out, Daemons for the most part have a lower Initiative..

Just get across the table as quickly as possible and get into smart combat. Don't charge into something that you're not going to break or win combat against in 400million years. Don't forget impact hits go before ASF, so if you've got the chance of demolishing a unit before they attack back, I'd take it.

Hulkster
22-06-2009, 16:35
no way high elves have asf as an army wide rule :O *jk*

i thought demonettes had a higher initiative than HE, and i thought that if you add a hearald to a unit of demonettes they gain ASF

if that is right then surly that would be an ideal selection for this army?

if i am wrong please tell me, i dont play DoC or HE

Brother J
22-06-2009, 16:48
Daemonettes have Initiative of 5, everything in the High Elf army that is an actual elf also has an Initiative of 5 or higher for the more elite units (Dragon Princes) and Characters.

So giving ASF to a unit won't do much unless it is in fact Daemonettes (Which I'm not debating at all, as I personally prefer Daemonettes over most of the other units in the DoC book.)

Herald of Nurgle + Plaguebearers would be nice as well. Regeneration + Noxious Vapors for the inevitable challenge...Removes ASF and turns it right on into ASL for models in base contact with the Herald.

But..Daemons really don't have a huge variety in tactics..It's magic or close combat goodness. Either way you're going to be doing some close combat. I'd say screen a block of multi-attacked ASF (Initiative 5) Daemonettes (Includes herald) with a unit of Regen'd plague bearers and send them straight up the middle. 2 attacks per Daemonette, 3 for the unit "Champion" at S3 with Armour Piercing. 1 S4 attack with T4 from the Plaguebearers, 2 attacks for the "Champion". Just make sure you move the daemonettes out soon enough so that you're not completely stuck behind a big ole block of Plaguebearers. With M6 it shouldn't be too difficult.

King_Pash
22-06-2009, 22:35
Lol, sorry, it's quite funny when a Deamon player screams cheese for another army..

bryne3
22-06-2009, 22:47
High Elves have ASF on every unit aside from non-elven models like Warhawks.

Even if the ASF's cancel out, Daemons for the most part have a lower Initiative..

Just get across the table as quickly as possible and get into smart combat. Don't charge into something that you're not going to break or win combat against in 400million years. Don't forget impact hits go before ASF, so if you've got the chance of demolishing a unit before they attack back, I'd take it.

Thats My problem! My mate whom i play the most has like 5 units of spearman, 3 reapter bolt throwers (god damn them), a magic guy whom likes casting flames of te phoenix on me and killing every thing (Even when i have Magic resistence Lv 1/2)!) Then when i get 2 use a bigger army borrowing some others models he uses a bloody dragon which minces every thing! I just wish i could play my deamons like i play 40k (never lost a game)!

bryne3
22-06-2009, 22:48
Just so you know, Nurglings are special and so are Screamers.

Yeah soz man i was real tired when i wrote that

PARTYCHICORITA
22-06-2009, 22:58
You could swap the herald for Skulltaker.

Dead Man Walking
22-06-2009, 23:02
You should ditch the nurglings, and nurglings with regenerate are going to help you a lot, as well as a banner to make his lore harder to cast. A Greater Daemon of Khorne would work wonders on that artillery as would other flying daemons, you can get lots of furies in a daemon list. You are a fear causing army that should have no problem winning combat against 2 elves manning a bolt thrower.

Your opponent is fielding a very efficient list and you have to do the same, you are not going to win a competetive game by playing a fun list.

Emeraldw
22-06-2009, 23:26
Me and someone else who dosn't go on this forum are the source of this, I run a star dragon 2 mages and the banner of sorcery + phoneix guard another block of elite infantry and 2 units of archers.
he runs khorne and nurgle


So basically you use some of the more broken stuff in the book?

Your list is clearly power gaming. No wonder he has troubles.

Emeraldw
22-06-2009, 23:28
Run: Blood Thirster

3 units of Horrors with +1 Casting icon, 10 man size.

2 units of 6 man flamers

as many flesh hounds as you can pack in.

That should even the playing Field :p

Edit: I really think your friend should just tone his down but if that is how your local club is, so be it.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 00:45
**** you all who are saying my list is chesse, I happen to like all the models in it and all those who say I am a power gamer - I played HE in 6th ed and won.. alot.
My Dragon is run with an unconvertinal magic item set up, the guy was asking fir tactics, not chesse lists, so the thing about chariots ASF and that stuff, but telling him to go Khorne/Tzentch army of un-flufiness is just sad.
And if you think I am a power gamer, my second fantsay army is orks and goblins, I take a black ork themed list cause I like black ork models and I run a dragon list cause I love the Dragon model.

Johan Chill
23-06-2009, 01:50
Relax, nobody is directly attacking you that I can see. You can't deny it's a very competitive list, however. Why should he not run a competitive list to counter? Cheese is subjective after all; so if you're going to call cheese on someone you aren't immune to it yourself.

Emeraldw
23-06-2009, 02:24
**** you all who are saying my list is chesse, I happen to like all the models in it and all those who say I am a power gamer - I played HE in 6th ed and won.. alot.
My Dragon is run with an unconvertinal magic item set up, the guy was asking fir tactics, not chesse lists, so the thing about chariots ASF and that stuff, but telling him to go Khorne/Tzentch army of un-flufiness is just sad.
And if you think I am a power gamer, my second fantsay army is orks and goblins, I take a black ork themed list cause I like black ork models and I run a dragon list cause I love the Dragon model.

Your right, my first response was overly harsh. But can you really say with a straight face that you aren't using some of the strongest stuff in the book? 2 min size archers and a star dragon alone says something.

The second response was really more of a joke but if your using some of the strongest stuff in your book, then he should use his to work against yours. And if you really are the better general as you are claiming then toning down your list and remaining competitive shouldn't' be hard.

If you like your dragon, thats fine. Maybe use a dragon mage instead? It is up to you, but if you continue to bring such obviously strong lists, then either people will not play with you or they will start bringing the best in their book. At that point it isn't fun imo.

I should speak to the OP more:
Elves are easy to kill, very easy. Flamers would help out a lot to take care of some of the more annoying units like Sword Masters. Dragons can be countered with your own Greater Daemon (if you can get it there obviously, Fliers help). Since your own units are unbreakable, you can hold the dragon still. Slaneesh heralds would go first against HE's with their I7(?). Khorne units could use the hatred to make sure lots of elves drop. Chariots as others have said work too against the ground forces, except the PG, 4+ ward is annoying. Keep in mind that Dragon armor ignores any flame based attack. Flesh hounds are a great unit, consider running 2 units of 5 and fits with the khorne theme. The nurgle beasts can be useful with M6 and Regen can make them another useful anvil, same with plauge bearers.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 03:18
That might not be good advice about the unbreakble holding still thing, my dragon is preety offsensive based and will rip through units like paper, espically deamons and other elves, and the dragon Flys sorry to break that to you.
How does using combinations that the designers obvoiusly pointed the book towards make an army cheesy, not using them is ignoring one of HE's advantages that is our speaacial army selection chart, I simply gear my army to the way it is desinged to be played and use it's advantges to my advantage.

To all the people who say I should 'tone down' IE make stupid desicions about my army and in doing so I will prove I am a better genaral, my list means my how I plan and use my magic phase important in both the dilvery system for my favrouite tactic - equip a lord with lvl 1 magic item and seerstaff, chose flaming sword of ruhin and watch the firewworks - and by itself, along with how I play mean that I am using my genaralship skills [I]with[I] my arnmy not one by itself
And sorry for the rant, but Dragon Mages are I belive for 1500 points and under, I tend to chose a commander on foot or horse for those games and go more troop heavy.

Emeraldw
23-06-2009, 04:23
Teko, I do not think you understand what I mean. I mean that warhammer is not a highly balanced game. There are things that just aren't fair if people aren't ready for them. It is discussed here a lot, a lot like to have fun and if making your list as strong as you can using the dragon you like is it, thats fine, but not many people I find will join in with that.

I also think you didn't mean that about making stupid decisions. I take shadow warriors with Alith'Anar. Not the best choice, but I like it and it works in my (sorta) themed Naggrythe list. And claiming that by not taking the best stuff "making stupid decisions" as you put it, is implying we are stupid and that is not fair.

Onto tactics which is what i really should be focusing on:
Your dragon does fly and he doesn't have cannons to deal with it, but a thirster flys as well so he can keep up with that, a keeper works as well with mv 10.

So if you did say, want to avoid the thirster, you would fly away or go into combat. Against PB's it would hold you with 5+ ward and regen. A big block of bloodletters wouldn't drop either as the 5+ ward save helps and their rules make it unlikely you can break it all in one round.

OP: You could also take forbidden lore on an Tzeentch herald on a chariot (Flying!) And try for "the beast cowers" on the dragon though I do not know how many scrolls he takes.

I am focusing too much on the dragon. Sword masters need to be shot, really. Unless you strike before them with a really brutal hero or your unit does, just shoot them, they will go down.

Normally I would say shoot Dp's with str 4 stuff but I think most of your shooting is flaming and won't work on them, so maybe use something big like your flesh hounds to hold them up, Str 5 and KB will do nicely, also they have the same mv (I think) so you might be able to get the charge! The tzeentch herald would have a spell in the beast lore that gives you extra charge range if you did that.

Seekers of Slaneesh with the only hold banner would help against archers, gotta love 20" charge range.

Phoinex guard are going to be annoying but only because they will stick around. They are tough but your Plauge bearers with a herald would be tougher and you could slowly wear him down and if a mage is with the unit, he can't do too much if he is in combat, at which point you can pick him out with attacks.

That is all I got at the moment.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 04:44
I usualy run white lions and phoneix guard, might use swordmasters against VCs, non-tzentch deamons/WoC/beastmen.
Plus if you read my post, regen goes up in smoke if my plan rus corrcetly, I take 2 scrolls usualy and a mage with silver wand and power stone.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 04:47
Anything to beat repeter bolt throwers, anyone?

Marshal Torrick
23-06-2009, 04:54
Furies will do it, as has been said.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 05:06
So what are the stats of furies like?

Hrogoff the Destructor
23-06-2009, 05:16
Their stats are not very good, but they do got fear, a ward save, and fly. That's why they are good against machine crews.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 05:18
Thanks for that.

Brother J
23-06-2009, 06:33
Thats My problem! My mate whom i play the most has like 5 units of spearman, 3 reapter bolt throwers (god damn them), a magic guy whom likes casting flames of te phoenix on me and killing every thing (Even when i have Magic resistence Lv 1/2)!) Then when i get 2 use a bigger army borrowing some others models he uses a bloody dragon which minces every thing! I just wish i could play my deamons like i play 40k (never lost a game)!

Truthfully, you should never wish you play so well that you never lose. It means you learn nothing. When you lose a battle, you're more likely to take some useful information away from the battle then when you just win all the time.

Everything having ASF isn't that big of a problem if you're using tougher then average units. A unit with S4 is at a better chance to survive the attack then let's say, a T3 unit. Why? Spearmen are only hitting with S3. So if he's beating you to death with quick attacks, take the stereotypical opposite..Big Brawny units. Big, tough, strong, and slow vs quick, weak. Really nothing to be afraid of at this point.

If it's magic he's whomping you with, stack more dispel dice, keep the MR on units, and of course, cast your own spells back at him. Bound spells are wonderful as well. In fact, if I had the points left I'd include the WoC banner for some extra kick to a unit of warriors, but I can't. /cry. The only things I can say to really, REALLY watch out for in the HE magic lore are Drain Magic, and Curse of Arrow Attraction. Drain Magic causes you to add +3 to the casting value you need to even get a spell off. Curse of Arrow Attraction, well, I'm sure you can guess.

If he's pulling out a dragon, get something to kill the dragon. DoC are MORE then adequate for dragon killing, even if it is those pesky Star Dragons (God I want one in real life.) Get a greater daemon? Bloodthirster with the proper gear can just fly straight at the dragon and nom on it's legs for a few turns after crushing it, just for the Grilled Chicken.

While it might not sound incredibly easy to accomplish against high leadership armies like most elves tend to be, you could always go for the typical terror/psychology bombing list. It's actually posted up in a thread somewhere around here. (Unfortunately the thread is titled after broken lists, so sad really.) The units that DO stay and not flee won't be many in numbers, and you can mop them up at your leisure.

If you're looking for easy wins, High Elves aren't the army to get them from. To be honest with you, anything with a leadership over 7 isn't. (I picked 7, as I'm running a WoC army, and if I wanted to, I could simply switch marks around to wave goodbye to terror bomb list's usefulness.)

It's all about picking things apart and finding out what is good against what. Use your losses as good things. Besides, I'm quite sure there are a few members on the forum you've made smile with this thread simply for having a DoC army that can't beat something else. If anything, you'll learn from this thread, and you'll feel better that you've put a smile on the faces of others.

Talash
23-06-2009, 15:57
A nice way to deal with dragons is to have a KoS with siren song lure it into charging it in the first turn, then flank charging it with another unit in your turn. Ideally keep the -2 Leadership banner BSB nearby just to make the KoS more effective and durable. After taking down the tooled up dragon and lord, a HE army has trouble dealing with daemons.

Wolf 11x
23-06-2009, 16:11
I'm almost convinced the TC is posting on an alt. Otherwise, he should be very annoyed at his thread being hijacked.


How does using combinations that the designers obvoiusly pointed the book towards make an army cheesy, not using them is ignoring one of HE's advantages that is our speaacial army selection chart, I simply gear my army to the way it is desinged to be played and use it's advantges to my advantage.

Oh, you're one of those players...

ghost of scubasteve
23-06-2009, 17:05
haha poor demons player

Stronginthearm
23-06-2009, 17:40
Oh, you're one of those players...

Ya man im feeling the same way

Gaargod
23-06-2009, 20:11
Standard daemon cheese lists will work well. Flamers destroy sword masters crazy fast, flesh hounds can deal with the infantry (combine charges).

KoS (with accompanying Icon of Despair and Masque for Ld4-6 dragon) or Bloodthirster (without flaming attacks) can deal with a dragon, and also rip shred infantry/cavalry happily.

And Teko, you're using a highly competitive army. It might not be the most competitive ever (personally prefer Star Lance, Dragon Amour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Talisman of Loec combo on lord), but it is NOT balanced. Its also not clearly fluffy (yes fine, you can write almost any army a good fluff, but it doesn't lend itself to fluff easily at all).

As for heavy cheese daemon army (not specified to high elves mind), something like...

Keeper of Secrets, Lv4 wizard with Allure of Slaanesh, Torment Blade and Siren Song = 625

Masque of Slaanesh = 90

Herald of Tzeentch, Winged Horror, BSB with Great Icon of Despair = 235

10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120
5 Furies = 60

5 Fleshhounds = 175
5 Fleshhounds = 175
5 Fleshhounds = 175

5 Flamers = 175
5 Flamers = 175

Total = 2245


Should probably do the job.

PeG
23-06-2009, 20:38
You dont have to overdo it. If the bolt throwers is your main problem having cheap flying fear causing core goes a long way for taking them out. You will outnumber with fear causing unit which means that if his crew has do do really well in combat not to run away. Worst case scenario you will tie them up in combat and thereby letting your other units advance across the field. Flamers will make a mess of any unit that isnt in close combat or has dragon armour.

Drakcore Bloodtear
23-06-2009, 20:40
regen goes up in smoke if my plan rus corrcetly

How??? :confused:


Truthfully, you should never wish you play so well that you never lose. It means you learn nothing. When you lose a battle, you're more likely to take some useful information away from the battle then when you just win all the time.

True when I started playing O&G I was shockenly bad but after every loss I saw my problems and tackled it by tactics or a change of list, now after 6 months I'd say i'm pretty good at playing them. So OP try the same thing use different units and tactics intil you feel good enough to try out different things :)

Tekomandor
24-06-2009, 03:15
Well if you read my post; against his army I can usauly get flaming word off with on my dragon with his fancy items
AKA
Lvl 1 thing and Seerstaff.

PeG
24-06-2009, 07:12
To get sufficient magic defense for a daemon player shouldnt really be that hard. When I play against daemons at 2k they frequently have 20-25 PD and usually more DD than I have PD. On top of that one or two spell breakers just to make sure I dont get anything useful through at the right moment (not to risk two 1s at dispel attempt). HE may be able to counter this somehow but I dont know how that would be done.

Tekomandor
24-06-2009, 07:40
20-25 power dice; you tzentch? if not WTF; still WTF

AramilSairSianontel
24-06-2009, 10:21
This whole thread is ridiculous. The daemon player should quit warhammer and start fishing.

Wolf 11x
24-06-2009, 14:12
This whole thread is ridiculous. The daemon player should quit warhammer and start fishing.

Ah, there is nothing like catching a nice, fat bass in one of the tanks on my girlfriend's land. :p

Stronginthearm
24-06-2009, 17:35
This whole thread is ridiculous. The daemon player should quit warhammer and start fishing.

I have no idea if this is suposed to be sarcasm or not, if not then whats rediculous about somebody trying to find a way to beat an opponent, is it the fact that he plays demons? is it only armies considered to be low on "cheese" that are allowed to ask for help and Demons, Dark Elves and VC are left out to try because its presumed they are already using "cheesy" armies?

Amlesh
24-06-2009, 17:50
I would highly recommend taking a tooled up KoS. All of these Elves Always Strike First? So does he, and he has Initiative 10. Charge that Dragon or make him come to you with Siren Song. Kill the rider, the Dragon probably won't kill you because of the higher Weapon Skill and Ward Save, so you can flank him later on with Flesh Hounds or something with a high static CR.

bryne3
25-06-2009, 00:16
K thx guys Im shaw this will all help heaps in my next game!

bryne3
25-06-2009, 00:20
I think i just really suck at playing with deamons and fantasy in general! When i play with dwarves i roll total **** and get nothing done! Empire Well i only collect coz i like their backround and painting them. But on the 40k side of things im great,Ive never lost a game with my elder, only lost one with my IG,so...

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 00:30
You don't suck; and you have not won an apoc game with your eldar against me; remeber the vortex grenade :).

fubukii
25-06-2009, 02:16
fantasy is a bit more complex then 40k and theres alot more you have to consider, but in some time im sure you will pick up the game :)

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 05:02
Fubukil is undersating it, the level of complextiy in 40k is Monopoly + 3, Fantasy is Monopoly +999999999999999999999999999999 :)\
You'll get it

bryne3
25-06-2009, 09:45
hey, I havnt lost yet! Only drawed, hehehehehehe, plus ive only played two, one against, one on ur side! So i still havnt lost yet

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 10:15
But you have not won yet ;)
But I digress Magic Missiles FTW!

Your Mum Rang
26-06-2009, 07:57
Khorne Heralds on Chariots. Slaanesh Heralds on Chariots.

Kill-Freedom
26-06-2009, 08:34
HIghs elves always strike first is a pain, and the fact, they can be tailored to fight any army..........

There fragile in close combat, bar the pheonix guard, with there 4 plus ward saves, mostly being toughness 3 and light armour/shield or just heavy army, thecav is better armoured, but still low toughness, you will need something with a good save, or tough, to whether the storm of blows, then you will rip threw them

Scallat
26-06-2009, 09:56
I play a largly Khornate and Nurgle army with:
Lords/heros:
herald of khorne on blood chariot.
Herald of nurgle(battle standed bearer)
Core:
2X Bloodletter
1X Plaughe Bearers
1X nurglings
Special:
1X Flesh Hounds
Rare:
1XScreamers

Starting from your current list the simplest changes you can make to get more performance out of your army are:

1: If you're playing in a large enough game to get a greater demon then take a greater demon. Blood Thirster gets my vote.

2: Take the herald off his chariot and put him in one of the blood letter units. Speaking as a Dark Elf player Hatred is too good to be missed.

3: Don't know if you've got this but take the +D6 charge icon on both units of blood letters. (Remember you can take the same icon multiple times).

4: Drop the nurglings and the screamers and take some flamers. Flamers are amazing esp vs sword masters.

5: If your opponent is taking a star dragon every game then you need to take the Skulltaker. He'll Killing Blow the dragon on a 5+. He's worth taking anyway if only because he's underpriced by about a hundred points.

6: Make sure you've got adaquate magic defense. You should be going for at least 5 dispell dice and a couple of scrolls against a list with 2 mages and the banner.

Cathel
26-06-2009, 22:07
I second Scallat on the hatred, my Druchii regularly beat up HE with it.
My points when playing vs HE:
-Stock up on T and armour to survive his ASF
-Stock up on shooting, they are T3 low armour troops
-ASF with high initiative (assassin for me, keeper for you I think)
-Impact hits if you can

Go heavy antimagic if you can (i don't know DoC), I face the 2 lv2 mages with sorcery banner often in 1500 pts. One chooses his spells the other has three, it's not nice.

nickyfoo
26-06-2009, 22:40
use flammers flammers and flammers

WhiteLion
27-06-2009, 14:16
use flammers flammers and flammers

Right, so then the dragon armor on DPs or The Prince on the dragon simply shrug it off.

I actually think that HE have one of the better match-ups against daemons due to fire resistance and ASF. The nurgle lord with the ASL is a major pain for HE.

fubukii
27-06-2009, 19:00
do not take skulltaker vs highelves, he is a bad choice, due to his flaming attacks he can not beat any HE characters in combat.

I highly suggest plaguebearers with a noxious vapor herald on palaquin, this hero alone puts out a massive hurt on HES.
Thristers with killing blow work decently as well.
Khorne heralds without FSB (jugg AOK only)
Tz heralds for magic, Beast cowers works great on Cav/dragons.

Aranel
27-06-2009, 19:10
Teko,
I'm sorry, but how does taking a very powerful list containing a Star Dragon into a friendly game make you a decent general? It is not exactly difficult to win with one unless your up against something equally powerful. The best generals that I know take balanced lists and triumph against those who max out certain aspects. They are competant because they can react to any situation without having to rely on a list which wins for itself. If you were really such a good player you would have found another way to win with high elves by now; from personal experience there are many builds to choose from.

On a more constructive note, as a HE player I really fear impact hits, Lots of shooting and resilient close combat units. Its already been said that Chariots decimate HE's and flamers can be used for dealing with their lightly armed infantry. Why not take a big unit of plaguebearers with a herald as the ward and regen will seriously bog opposing units down. Give him a palaqiun and the gift that makes opposing troops in base contact strike last. I believe it overides ASF.

hope this helps

Tekomandor
27-06-2009, 21:55
I take models I like, power has nothing to do with I took this list in 6th Ed, and how does using my skills as a list builder; if a good general plays well in a freindly game how does thar differ?

Aranel
28-06-2009, 04:07
I thought you said you liked the dragon model but that sculpt was not out during 6th edition. It has already been stated that a dragon mage is a viable choice as is a prince or archmage on the moon dragon. All of which use the model you like yet you continue to pick the most powerful choice. This suggests that simply putting your favourite models on the table is not your only consideration.

The idea of a friendly game is that both players have fun. Having such a powerful model on the board often restricts your opponants enjoyment. E.g My GT HE force his centred around Teclis, my thought process being fight cheese with cheese! I wouild never use Teclis at my club however, as the player on the other side of the table tended to get a bit bored with just taking of models when I told him to. For friendly games why not tone down the list and save the star dragon army for tournements. By playing with a weaker list and deliberatly handicapping yourself you become a better general anyway.

Kill-Freedom
01-07-2009, 21:43
Teko,
I'm sorry, but how does taking a very powerful list containing a Star Dragon into a friendly game make you a decent general? It is not exactly difficult to win with one unless your up against something equally powerful. The best generals that I know take balanced lists and triumph against those who max out certain aspects. They are competant because they can react to any situation without having to rely on a list which wins for itself. If you were really such a good player you would have found another way to win with high elves by now; from personal experience there are many builds to choose from.

On a more constructive note, as a HE player I really fear impact hits, Lots of shooting and resilient close combat units. Its already been said that Chariots decimate HE's and flamers can be used for dealing with their lightly armed infantry. Why not take a big unit of plaguebearers with a herald as the ward and regen will seriously bog opposing units down. Give him a palaqiun and the gift that makes opposing troops in base contact strike last. I believe it overides ASF.

hope this helps

I agree, I tend to play a balanced list, and wont generally change this, unless it is vital, but a few in my gaming group have made there armies specificily to take my balance VC list down, as they know what i am going to take, It would be interesting to see, how these players fair in tournaments, where they must submit and not change a list during its course. Knowing that they wont be able to change to take on different armies, would they go for a balance list, or a specific list aimed at downing 1 specific army, and hope it pulls off wins over others

Friendly games are spose to be for fun, when you take overpowered list, think, is it going to be fun for your opponent, when they get massacred

WhiteLion
02-07-2009, 10:51
I agree, I tend to play a balanced list, and wont generally change this, unless it is vital, but a few in my gaming group have made there armies specificily to take my balance VC list down, as they know what i am going to take, It would be interesting to see, how these players fair in tournaments, where they must submit and not change a list during its course. Knowing that they wont be able to change to take on different armies, would they go for a balance list, or a specific list aimed at downing 1 specific army, and hope it pulls off wins over others

Friendly games are spose to be for fun, when you take overpowered list, think, is it going to be fun for your opponent, when they get massacred

I'd be very curious to know what your 38-4 "balanced" VC list looks like....


High Elves, imo, due to the expense of our troops tend to have a difficult time making balanced lists that are competitive (and by that I mean an interesting game for both players, not overpowered but not "weak" either) and "all-comers" lists. Troops are too expensive to get a good variety, our special choices of infantry perform very different roles but are too expensive to take a "balanced" helping of them, and magic items tend to be pretty specialized as well.

LD 8 or 9 is solid but an army that is few in numbers can't afford to lose a unit to fear or fail an important charge to fear. Dragons, and keep in mind I don't take one, are one of the few options that players have in order to defend against fear and terror caused by multiple armies and also which are so dominant.

Kill-Freedom
03-07-2009, 08:19
I'd be very curious to know what your 38-4 "balanced" VC list looks like....


High Elves, imo, due to the expense of our troops tend to have a difficult time making balanced lists that are competitive (and by that I mean an interesting game for both players, not overpowered but not "weak" either) and "all-comers" lists. Troops are too expensive to get a good variety, our special choices of infantry perform very different roles but are too expensive to take a "balanced" helping of them, and magic items tend to be pretty specialized as well.

LD 8 or 9 is solid but an army that is few in numbers can't afford to lose a unit to fear or fail an important charge to fear. Dragons, and keep in mind I don't take one, are one of the few options that players have in order to defend against fear and terror caused by multiple armies and also which are so dominant.

Its more like 38 to 7 loses now LOL been massacred 3 times in a row now :p

I have built it up over many games to take on all armies, and used by a good general should be able to pull of victory's on any army, all down to good tactics!!!

One army i do fair badly against is HE's, the ASF rule is one of the biggest load of **** in the game.......................... HE's also is a list, you can tailor to defeat any army, even though expensive, they have a awesome troop and magic item selection

WhiteLion
03-07-2009, 14:42
Its more like 38 to 7 loses now LOL been massacred 3 times in a row now :p

I have built it up over many games to take on all armies, and used by a good general should be able to pull of victory's on any army, all down to good tactics!!!

One army i do fair badly against is HE's, the ASF rule is one of the biggest load of **** in the game.......................... HE's also is a list, you can tailor to defeat any army, even though expensive, they have a awesome troop and magic item selection

You certainly can tailor a HE list to take on any army, but making a single list to take on anything and keep the game competitive without taking a star dragon or heavy magic is a very difficult. Most recent lists have a lot more flexibility in their builds. HE magic items are OK.


There's a big difference between an "all-comers list" and a "balanced list." VC really should have no problem creating a list that can take all comers, but rarely have I seen a VC with a balanced list. By definition, they tend to be heavy on the magic and even if they go medium magic, 8-10 PD, it is still nearly impossible to stop due to the ability to recast (your movement spell is able to be recast until successful and has an incredibly low target number especially when compared to other movement spells in the the brb) and one die spam raise. On top of that, the army doesn't break, so while I understand there are tactics in this game, a VC player talking about tactics doesn't really mean much to me.

I don't understand why people get bent out of shape over ASF, especially since Vamps and other recent armies have a couple of things that can actually counter and sometimes effectively negate it it in their list, which annoys me when I pay for it on every model. It comes into play very rarely and only with certain units is it actually useful: swordmasters if they get charged -- remember they used to go at initiative anyway! and whitelions. Everything else is too low str or has too few attacks to really do much. After all that, they are still T3 troops, so where other small elite armies have higher armor and T the high elf ASF rule is all that really allows them to take a charge. Keep in mind that HE would normally be going first in subsequent rounds of combat anyway. I'm not saying it was an ideal solution, but most solid high elf players I know don't use it much to win and our OtT lists make almost no use of it -- DPs, Star Dragons, BTs, Battle Banner, and/or heavy magic). Smart tactical players that I know take very little issue with it and make certain that I get as little advantage from it as possible. I play both HE and DE and DE are a far better designed army, can make much harder lists even when they are more "balanced."

Kill-Freedom
03-07-2009, 21:03
You certainly can tailor a HE list to take on any army, but making a single list to take on anything and keep the game competitive without taking a star dragon or heavy magic is a very difficult. Most recent lists have a lot more flexibility in their builds. HE magic items are OK.


There's a big difference between an "all-comers list" and a "balanced list." VC really should have no problem creating a list that can take all comers, but rarely have I seen a VC with a balanced list. By definition, they tend to be heavy on the magic and even if they go medium magic, 8-10 PD, it is still nearly impossible to stop due to the ability to recast (your movement spell is able to be recast until successful and has an incredibly low target number especially when compared to other movement spells in the the brb) and one die spam raise. On top of that, the army doesn't break, so while I understand there are tactics in this game, a VC player talking about tactics doesn't really mean much to me.

I don't understand why people get bent out of shape over ASF, especially since Vamps and other recent armies have a couple of things that can actually counter and sometimes effectively negate it it in their list, which annoys me when I pay for it on every model. It comes into play very rarely and only with certain units is it actually useful: swordmasters if they get charged -- remember they used to go at initiative anyway! and whitelions. Everything else is too low str or has too few attacks to really do much. After all that, they are still T3 troops, so where other small elite armies have higher armor and T the high elf ASF rule is all that really allows them to take a charge. Keep in mind that HE would normally be going first in subsequent rounds of combat anyway. I'm not saying it was an ideal solution, but most solid high elf players I know don't use it much to win and our OtT lists make almost no use of it -- DPs, Star Dragons, BTs, Battle Banner, and/or heavy magic). Smart tactical players that I know take very little issue with it and make certain that I get as little advantage from it as possible. I play both HE and DE and DE are a far better designed army, can make much harder lists even when they are more "balanced."

The high elves higher movement value should be the thing that makes them attack first in combat, kinda the same as if your a wood elf player, out moving your enemy and making charges where is best, not just sitting back, and striking first when you get charged :mad: Wood elves are expensive elite army which is far more fragile then a HE army........

WhiteLion
03-07-2009, 23:53
The high elves higher movement value should be the thing that makes them attack first in combat, kinda the same as if your a wood elf player, out moving your enemy and making charges where is best, not just sitting back, and striking first when you get charged :mad: Wood elves are expensive elite army which is far more fragile then a HE army........

That's exactly my point, actually. HE rarely use the ASF rule and it is only useful for the two units I mentioned when they are faced with something with longer range, and let's be honest, there's plenty of that. However, it is very nice to have the option to take a charge and then counter in your own turn rather than playing 6th ed, where a charge against those units I mentioned would be devestating.

WE are only more fragile if you don't bring any forest spirits and bring all elves, which most people don't, and both their manuever and shooting is just plain better. Whereas HE tend to have fewer units on the whole, and more blocks (especially if you bring a balanced list), both of which cut down on the ability to manuever.

Kill-Freedom
04-07-2009, 00:54
That's exactly my point, actually. HE rarely use the ASF rule and it is only useful for the two units I mentioned when they are faced with something with longer range, and let's be honest, there's plenty of that. However, it is very nice to have the option to take a charge and then counter in your own turn rather than playing 6th ed, where a charge against those units I mentioned would be devestating.

WE are only more fragile if you don't bring any forest spirits and bring all elves, which most people don't, and both their manuever and shooting is just plain better. Whereas HE tend to have fewer units on the whole, and more blocks (especially if you bring a balanced list), both of which cut down on the ability to manuever.

Forest spirits are fragile, regardless of there 5 plus ward save :( they get next to no stactic CR, and only win combats if set up against the right enemy, save perhaps the treeman, who is just awesome ^^ and can hold his own most the time

They may have higher toughness then elves, but lack any sort of decent armour, id so perfer a 2 + armour save knight, then them :p

The ASF is bad, and not much thought was put into it, regardless of whether its useful or not, it should not of been made an army wide specail rule, and if one lot of elves get it, the other elven army's should...........

Oh and 15/16 (champion) strenght 3 spear attacks is pretty deadly to charge anything into.... i learnt that with my ghouls :( LOL

WhiteLion
04-07-2009, 01:55
Forest spirits are fragile, regardless of there 5 plus ward save :( they get next to no stactic CR, and only win combats if set up against the right enemy, save perhaps the treeman, who is just awesome ^^ and can hold his own most the time

They may have higher toughness then elves, but lack any sort of decent armour, id so perfer a 2 + armour save knight, then them :p

The ASF is bad, and not much thought was put into it, regardless of whether its useful or not, it should not of been made an army wide specail rule, and if one lot of elves get it, the other elven army's should...........

Oh and 15/16 (champion) strenght 3 spear attacks is pretty deadly to charge anything into.... i learnt that with my ghouls :( LOL

Spears are good against very few opponents, especially the armies these days. Those were pretty lucky rolls against your ghouls. 15 spear attacks against T4 sometimes do absolutely nothing for me and on average do about 3 wounds (10 hit, 3.3 wound), so that isn't bad, but that's against unarmored opponents. They do almost nothing against cav charges, dwarves or other enemies like that. But, yeah, the sheer number of attacks can do some damage with a bit of luck.

I don't disagree with the lack of thought regarding ASF, at least in that I would have even rather had something else, but I don't think it is nearly as broken as some people complain.

Dragon Princes are good and are included in most lists but no one makes up list of solely knights and most of us like to have infantry in our lists for various reasons, balance being a huge part of that. Again, I've lost plenty of those knights you mentioned to STR 4 shooting, or DE armor piercing. Not to mention that you can get almost 2 units of 9-10 dryads for the price of a 5-6 DPs. Don't forget treekin, too.

Johan Chill
05-07-2009, 00:04
I may be missing something here, but comparing Wood Elves to High Elves is not an apt comparison. The former plays much too differently.

WhiteLion
05-07-2009, 13:03
I may be missing something here, but comparing Wood Elves to High Elves is not an apt comparison. The former plays much too differently.

They certainly do, though they are both small elite armies.

Finnigan2004
05-07-2009, 18:43
Crazy as it may seem to try to inject some rationality into an internet debate about cheese, here goes... To the original poster, I think that there are a few possibilties regarding your opponent's behaviour. Since you obviously know him better than the rest of us, it falls to you to make the call which category he falls into.

1. He knew that his list was tough, and he wanted to "put one over on you". He asked you to bring a sub optimal list, and then brought his own optimized list just to give you a beating.

2. For whatever reason, he does not know the power of his own list (he might be inexperienced, not very self aware, etc.). He took a list that actually was very tough and thought that it was "hard but balanced". I've found this term commonly used by people who subscribe very strongly to the concept of cheese-- their lists are invariably "hard but balanced", but their opponent's lists are cheese. So hard not to make a Fox news reference here, but anyhow...

Now, since you obviously planned the game beforehand to some extent, I think that you should probably continue to talk to him and be honest. Let him know that you feel that his army is fairly hard, and that if he uses that list all bets are off for what you bring (hint that he'll be getting the star dragon treatment though). If you both like playing at that level, it should work out fine. You can also negotiate with him not to bring every backhanded trick in his book, and let him know that you will do the same. Either way, best to negotiate terms for a game that you will both enjoy.

riotknight
05-07-2009, 19:20
I find that in my gaming group, we always play our best armies, we all respect eachother enough that We won't put our sub-optimal lists on the board. Never has there been a game where Neither of us have had fun. Occasionally we change our lists to another option but still something we see as competitive (1 Vamp Lord and 3 Wights FTW!).

I've never had a problem dealing with a Star Dragon list as a; 1. Vampire Counts Player 2. Lizardmen Player 3. Orc Player 4. Khorne Daemon player (Mono-Khorne). I've won more times than I've lost against it. I think My orcs have the easiest time with it.

Tekomandor
06-07-2009, 03:37
I would tend to agree with you Roitknight; I mean I used to play against a person who always used Malakith on black dragon or pendant of kaeleth lord on black dragon (Untill he kind of moved away) compared to my offensive based warrior mage guy (LvL 1 item); which is not the optimal vambraces of defnse + magic bow. To all those who say never to even use a star dragon; why? why would you want to strike off the best looking model in the army from play?

isidril93
07-07-2009, 12:13
WOOOHOOOO teko!!!

baically i agree with you on the fact that it is a lovely model.
its not that hard to beat, and it does cost 600+ points

use bearers and slaanesh daemons with heralds and maybe a chariot or tow