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jigplums
31-12-2005, 14:01
i've very recently got back into warhammer after much time out and am wondering how he fit in know and what works/doesn't work for them.

most of the elite infantry seem very vulnerable to missile fire, for their points and they dont seem to be that hot on shooting either.

my basic ideas looking at the army book is that i should have 1 or 2 blocks of spearmen, a few repeater bolt throwers and 1/2 units of silver helms. Is that an affective sounding list?

patataman
31-12-2005, 14:07
i've very recently got back into warhammer after much time out and am wondering how he fit in know and what works/doesn't work for them.

most of the elite infantry seem very vulnerable to missile fire, for their points and they dont seem to be that hot on shooting either.

my basic ideas looking at the army book is that i should have 1 or 2 blocks of spearmen, a few repeater bolt throwers and 1/2 units of silver helms. Is that an affective sounding list?


I think (dont play wht them, but play alot against them :P) they should be played in that way ^^

Spearman that stand the charge whit 3 ranck and cavary that counter charge an take th flanck a destroy the unit ^^

Killshot
31-12-2005, 14:51
There is a tactics thread on High Elves that you can check out for alot of ideas. My HE army that I ran used mostly basic troops (Core) and a few characters.

I usually had:

Elven Prince, Swordmaster Honor, armor of the Gods and the item that gave him a 5+ ward save (can't remember what it is right now).
Elven Mage scroll caddie

2 Regiments of 24 spearelves, full command. These guys were 6 wide and 4 deep to maximize their attacks. I put my elven prince in the front rank of one of these regiments. There was normally nothing they couldn't defeat.

2 regiments of 10 Silver Helms maxed out with kit and full command. I usually upgraded one to First Among Equals and gave them the Ellyrian banner for that nice move through rough terrain without penalty. Also fun!

1 regiment of 16 archers. Why 16? I didn't buy another box so I could take 2 regiments of 10 instead.

Add were two bolt throwers.

I usually had a third character model, either a Commander on horseback or another mage depending on my opponents.

Many people with disagree with this list, but it was my list and I won alot more than I lost. I was told many times that my list look more like a Dark Elf army than a High Elf one. To each his own I guess!

RGB
02-01-2006, 18:41
Gods of Warhammer save you from ever facing a mortar or two if you decide to follow Killshot's list (2 x 24 SE?).

The cavalry is good though, the RBTs are a good investment. Spearmen can on occasion more than hold their own against other infantry but chances are other infantry is not what they'll throw at them; and they will die to shooting/bretonneans/artillery something crazy.

So....I don't know. A lot of that list is very vulnerable to what amounts to a few lucky shots. But overall, it seems a decent and cheap (monetarily) way to build an army.

shadowprince
02-01-2006, 19:25
balanced lists in my experiance work best, you nee a cornerstine unit ir two of spearmen, and unless you are going all calv silver hemls should be in units of 5. archers are debated about level of usefulness but they are overpriced. Seaguard and pheonnx guard should not even be considered.

Lord Anathir
02-01-2006, 20:12
If you want a list that can hold its own against any army, its an all cav. By all cav, i dont mean powergaming with 4 mages, i mean a fair and fun list with 4 units of cav, 4 chariots and auxillary stuff.

It is debateble whether mixed lists are actually more fun to play. I think they are, but not by much at all. I am dropping my mixed list and going all cav. I have played way too long with mixed high elves and ive reached the point of frustration with my army. What i did is use a lvl4, lvl 2, battle banner, block of spears with stuborn commander, a unit of helms, unit of DP, small unit of archers, 2 chariots, 2 RBt, 2 Eagles. Its record is 14 wins, 2 loses and a draw including 4th and 6th in the two tourneys i took it too.

Luke
02-01-2006, 20:26
my 2 penneth:

high elf cavalry is crap, silver helms though very tempting need to be supported very well in order to work effectively, diverting far too much attention from the rest of your plans.

my advice? magic! high elf mages are the best in the game :D

simply take as many wizards as you can and blast your opponent into the dirt.

Lord Anathir
03-01-2006, 02:49
yeah...and get a miscast or loose a mage and watch it all crumble.

Luke
03-01-2006, 11:50
hardly likely, if you have your game together and a good tactical head on your shoulders it should not be a problem. whereas your cavalry diverts much needed support from other areas, your mages are worth the extra support and protection you can give them.

Lord Anathir
03-01-2006, 17:43
no matter how tactical you are, you cant prevent miscasts! Chariots, reavers, eagles and single characters are the cavalry support.

what do you mean by 'your cavalry diverts much needed support from other areas'?

Scythe
03-01-2006, 18:37
The Classical Image High Elf Army:

Long lines of spearelves and archers, backed up with bolt throwers, and having some nice elite elements like Swordmasters or White Lions.

Reality:

Elven elite infantry is nothing special. Archers are overpriced crap, and Lothern Seaguard are even worse. Spearelves are decent, but nothing more than that. That is why every High Elf army made for pure competive feel is either an all cavalry army or the magehammer army, consisting of 1 lvl 4 mage, 3 lvl 2 mages, and as many extra power dice and bound items you can get (assuming 2000-2500 pts). Too bad really...:(

Gupp
03-01-2006, 23:18
^i agree. perhaps elves should have the ablility to gain an extra rank bonus for foot troops. i dont know how this would work, just thowing it out there.

patataman
04-01-2006, 01:00
not another "HE are crap" trath please T_T.

Flypaper
04-01-2006, 05:37
I don't understand why more people don't flip for White Lions. Ranked units with great weapons and M5 who can effectively hold any woods in the centre of the board with the threat of an ambush sound pretty sweet. Let's not forget the champion can take a 15 point magic item to give the unit pseudo-Magic Resistance, protecting them against elite woodsmen's traditional vulnerability (Life and Heavens magic!). If Intrigue at Court works out in your favour they're even Stubborn on L9-10, making them very dangerous indeed... Throw in the Lion Standard they're borderline unbreakable!

...Actually, gypping White Lions is about the only reason why I think I@C should be scrapped. I like the flavour, but it's hurting an interesting unit. :o

Finally, HE can afford the rare slot more than they could a special - it's pretty nice that both the "standard" rare choices (RBTs and Eagles) are two-for-one.

...Of course, I usually play on fairly terrain-heavy boards. If you've got a dustbowl plain built for cavalry charges WL are a bit too flimsy...

Scythe
04-01-2006, 10:18
Yeah, but RBTs and eagles are pretty much compulsory choices, chosen before Lions. In 2000 pts battles were you only have 2 rare slots, most people rather take Eagles and bolt throwers as a semi-decent ranked unit.

shadowprince
05-01-2006, 01:48
also white lions one bad turn of rolling and its game over, they are toughness 3 strike last, or any sort of counter charge and they are dead.Personally if you want an elite infantry its swordmasters, better than white lioins in every way except for 1 str. Also they get 2 turns to destroy a unit.

Lord Anathir
05-01-2006, 02:00
they are worse then spearmen when charged. and its not that hard to fail a ld8 test. ive done it countless times. a good idea is if your mage is your general put him with the white lions, then before the get charge, put a great eagle right in front of the mage (who is on the edge)....when they are charged, the enemy cant challenge or attack the mage....
also, if he chooses to charge the eagle, he cant redirect as the white lions were a legal charge at the beginning of the turn. That leads to possibly a flank. Its very good against cavalry (to limit attacks or negate their charge bonus) and against other infantry you will probably do the charging as you are M5.
Fitting white lions into army isnt that hard...just need a character with lion guard. they become special...you should have room for them there.

@jigplums
http://mars.walagata.com/w/lordanathir/3192397.pdf
take a look.

Flypaper
05-01-2006, 02:33
...Er, why are they getting charged at all? They're borderline invincible while in the woods - barring maybe a largish block of Dryads - so plunk them in the most strategically useful piece of terrain and effectively deny your opponent the ground within an 8" radius of those woods. Force your opponent to either split his forces or feed you a flank charge - both those options sound good enough to me to be worth a rare slot and ~250 points.

@ Scythe: Really? Most HE lists I've seen run one or the other - I think I've almost never seen both together.

Eldacar
05-01-2006, 03:28
A unit of 14 White Lions with an accompanying mage sitting in the woods will be near-invulnerable, provided that the mage is using the Lore of Heavens or Life. But aside from that, I can't think of many reasons to take them, as there are better choices available in the Rare selection. And if you take the Lion Guard honour to make them a special choice, then you have to use up a character to do it. And from my perspective, I don't think that should be necessary. So in a 3000 point battle I'd probably take a unit of them along with me, but in a 2000 point game, I'd stick with my Eagles.


The Classical Image High Elf Army:

Long lines of spearelves and archers, backed up with bolt throwers, and having some nice elite elements like Swordmasters or White Lions.

Reality:

Elven elite infantry is nothing special. Archers are overpriced crap, and Lothern Seaguard are even worse. Spearelves are decent, but nothing more than that. That is why every High Elf army made for pure competive feel is either an all cavalry army or the magehammer army, consisting of 1 lvl 4 mage, 3 lvl 2 mages, and as many extra power dice and bound items you can get (assuming 2000-2500 pts).
This is a more or less accurate judgement.

Ares
05-01-2006, 11:21
^i agree. perhaps elves should have the ablility to gain an extra rank bonus for foot troops. i dont know how this would work, just thowing it out there.

Like a phalanks or legionaire formations.

People keep saying that WL should be placed in woods but how many situations will woods be stratigicaly placed & while would i want to have an expansive unit sitting in the woods all day waiting for someone foolishly to get near them.


A unit of 14 White Lions with an accompanying mage sitting in the woods will be near-invulnerable, provided that the mage is using the Lore of Heavens or Life. But aside from that, I can't think of many reasons to take them, as there are better choices available in the Rare selection. And if you take the Lion Guard honour to make them a special choice, then you have to use up a character to do it. And from my perspective, I don't think that should be necessary. So in a 3000 point battle I'd probably take a unit of them along with me, but in a 2000 point game, I'd stick with my Eagles.
I agree, why should any HE player pay extra points to allow them access to units they would otherwise miss out on.

Xcercs
05-01-2006, 13:38
i think that maybe the white lions would be good in a cav army as a supporting unit possibly but the problem is as people have said its them or eagle rbt OR u go out of your way to keep the eagles ect and equip a char to take them

jigplums
05-01-2006, 16:56
so far in my games spearmen have been quite affective. Ive only played empire so far but i've played 4 games, 2 with he and 2 with Orc and Goblin and all 4 have been massacre's in my favour. why are they so bad? or is it just vs other opponents they won't do so well?

I painted 25 models last night in about 4 hours so there on the way :)

Ares
05-01-2006, 21:40
Points Cost mainly.

Eldacar
06-01-2006, 00:36
so far in my games spearmen have been quite affective. Ive only played empire so far but i've played 4 games, 2 with he and 2 with Orc and Goblin and all 4 have been massacre's in my favour. why are they so bad? or is it just vs other opponents they won't do so well?

They cost more than they're worth. They aren't as bad as some units in the list (the Sea Guard and Phoenix Guard come to mind), but they're still less than optimal.


i think that maybe the white lions would be good in a cav army as a supporting unit possibly
They're too slow to keep up with the cavalry, and Eagles are far better support for an all-cav force anyway.

Scythe
06-01-2006, 17:33
[QUOTE=Flypaper*@ Scythe: Really? Most HE lists I've seen run one or the other - I think I've almost never seen both together.[/QUOTE]

Well, I can only speak for my general high elf opponents, but around here 2 bolt throwers and 1 or 2 eagles is standard in 2000 or 2500 pts battles. The Throwers just shoot away troops while the eagles are used as war machine hunters, march blockers etc.

I realise that you can take a character with the Lion Guard honour to make them special, but you´re spending more and more points on them this way, points they are, in the end, not worth in my opinion, as some other choices are simply more effective for their pts value.

On the spearmen subject,

They are not that bad, but they are costly for what they do. Compared to dark elf spearmen, high elves pay 3 points only to get another rank of spear attacks. That is simply not really points effective. Also, they don´t have that many effective units to support them.

Emmo-X
07-01-2006, 07:17
White lions are crap as for the ability to move through woods, theres a banner called "banner of ellyrion" u can stick on your swordmasters or cav. White lions have strength 6 "woooh" thats if they get an attack back toughness 3 with a 6+ armour save striking last.... come on goblin spearmen could wipe half the front rank out before they even hit. If you give a mounted character lion gaurd and stick him in a nit of dragon princes with "banner of ellyrion" you've got a stubourn LD 9/10 that can move 18" through woods.

I find HE mages over priced i take 1 mage and one character with "radiant gem of Hoeth" and anouther with "loremaster" and put them both in armour and use them purely as PD feeders to the mage with Jewel of the dusk and ring of cowin. So you've got 7 PD, 5 DD and a bound spell with only 1 mage.

I find high Elf core choices very weak. Silver helms are the best there, and spearmen, archers and seagaurd are all over priced all though spearmen arn't as bad as archers and seagaurd.

Chariots eagles and bolt throwers are all very handy i think each high elf army needs at least 2 of these to be effective.

Intrgue at court sux and shouldn't be in the HE book

Thats just my 2 cents