PDA

View Full Version : Avoiding Daemon Cheese!



PiousVanDorn
22-06-2009, 10:31
Hi everyone,

Looking at Daemons - want to be competitive but REALLY want to avoid the cry of cheese or beard! Any pointers?

Thanks

PvD

archie-d
22-06-2009, 10:37
dont take a GD.

mightygnoblar
22-06-2009, 10:48
just dont spam, and/or ld bomb, no one likes to she half a dozen squads of flesh hounds and horrors etc.

The best bet is just to pick the units you like, the book is hard enough to balance itself pretty well regardless of what you pick, just avoid multiple squads of hounds, horrors, plague bearers and flamers and you should avoid the cheese

Urgat
22-06-2009, 10:59
Leave right after the main dish when they invite you to dinner :p

dsw1
22-06-2009, 12:27
Unfortunately, what ever you take in a daemon army, people will accuse you of being "cheesy" or a "WAAC player" (even if that is 100 daemonettes with a Khorne herald on their own :rolleyes:). When it comes to the daemon army, people are kind of narrow minded, I've found, and so if they can't win, they will cry cheese.

I'd say take what you like, and not what other people thing is "Acceptable", so long as you know you didn't intend your list to be "cheese" and you're friendly with your opponent then the game will be fun. That is the difference between you and a WAAC player, WAAC players are generally very controlling and treat the game as more of an actual battle rather than a game.

This being said, you could alternately go for a "themed" list, I started a Themed Slannesh Daemons a few weeks back which should be ready to play this Wednesday (not that it is painted or anything ;) ).

Urgat
22-06-2009, 13:19
Nah, there's builds that people don't complain about. Your Slaanesh theme, for instance, there's nothing too crazy or overpowered about it, at least I think so. but some builds, like the all core plaguebearer+special flesh hound+ rare flamer, well... if one gets flak for that, he kind of deserves it.

dsw1
22-06-2009, 13:49
Nah, there's builds that people don't complain about. Your Slaanesh theme, for instance, there's nothing too crazy or overpowered about it, at least I think so. but some builds, like the all core plaguebearer+special flesh hound+ rare flamer, well... if one gets flak for that, he kind of deserves it.

To be perfectly fair, my Slanneshy themed list is some what "character" heavy, but that's due to a Keeper of Secrets ;).

But I've seen people with all Khorne armies, as in 3 blocks of 20, 2 units of hounds and a few juggers, get called cheesy just because the opponent couldn't beat the list. People have "Daemons = cheese" stuck in their heads, so when ever they see anything daemonic related they will cry cheese at the top of their lungs for heaven and earth to hear.

I've never seen the problem with hounds to be perfectly honest, if I had to choose out of facing 5 hounds or a hydra (roughly the same points I think), I'd pick the hounds any day of the week.

lparigi34
22-06-2009, 13:51
------------
Notice: I am a confessed hardcore anti daemon army. I heartily believe is the cheesiest stuff GW has ever came up with, but I'll try my best to remain open in this thread... I'd like to change my mind, even if a bit, in order to enjoy a bit more and have the feeling that sometime I'll be able to overcome my own paradigmatic limitations and finally beat a daemons army
------------

Is there really a way to make an underpowered daemons army? I think that even trying to make it reasonable using an internal reference (meaning not as powerful as other daemon armies) still brings a lot of power when compared to other intrinsically weaker armies, i.e. O&G, OK, or TKs.

Amlesh
22-06-2009, 14:52
I beat a soft Daemon army once. Want the key to a soft army? Take a Daemon Prince (of any flavor, it really doesn't matter). Greater Daemons are cheese and 4 Heralds (especially 4 Khorne Heralds on Juggies!) can be particularly nasty. So, a Daemon Prince, and then fill with Heralds to taste (preferably only 2 Heralds, and don't double up on gods).

As far as Core goes, don't take a huge unit of Plaguebearers with a Herald. That's complete cheese as that unit never ever goes away. Bloodletters aren't bad, Daemonettes definitely aren't bad, and Horrors aren't bad in small numbers.

The worst thing you can do with Special choices is fill them up with 4x5 Flesh Hounds. Flesh Hounds are incredibly nasty--being useful for redirecting, taking out small units, and sometimes even ranked units on their own. This is sometimes referred to as the "Khornedog" list. Don't do it. Ever. It's not soft, and it's not fun to play against.

For Rare, take only 1 small unit of Flamers. I don't mind facing them, so long as there aren't 10 of them on the opponent's side of the table.

In the end, it's really whatever you want to do. Compose an army list that you wouldn't mind facing and chances are that it won't be too OTT.

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2009, 15:00
Cheesey things in the DoC list?

Bloodthirster
Plaguebearer BsB's in big Plaguebearer units
Special Character's
Multiple Flesh hounds units
MSU Horrors
Sundering Standard
Multiple/Large Flamer units
Multiple Siren Songs

Sounds like a lot but that leaves plenty of things you can still take and people can't really call you cheesy at all.

Urgat
22-06-2009, 15:07
I've never seen the problem with hounds to be perfectly honest, if I had to choose out of facing 5 hounds or a hydra (roughly the same points I think), I'd pick the hounds any day of the week.

Well, I'm one of those who believe hounds are rather exagerated. I think it's the two wounds that annoy me most. They got it all, and that makes them one of the rare units in Warhammer that can take about any role, they can even play anvil, and they got the speed to mover where they want to play any role needed. I think iy's really a bit too much. Well that doesn't annoy me half as much as flamers being beasts in melee, granted. I played with the idea of making a demon army (with enough models for a 100% slaanesh army and a mixed army coz I liked most models), but I gave up on the idea because the mixed version is too powerful and people are just reluctent playing againts that

Witchblade
22-06-2009, 15:14
Just enter your army in a comp system and try to get a reasonable score.

Things to avoid:
Epidemius + nurgle horde
> 1 flamer unit
> 1 flesh hound unit
Maxing out on horrors
Greater Daemon (unless in a generally soft list)

Amlesh
22-06-2009, 15:16
Cheesey things in the DoC list?

Bloodthirster
Plaguebearer BsB's in big Plaguebearer units
Special Character's
Multiple Flesh hounds units
MSU Horrors
Sundering Standard
Multiple/Large Flamer units
Multiple Siren Songs

Sounds like a lot but that leaves plenty of things you can still take and people can't really call you cheesy at all.

Add the Standard of Chaos Glory.

PiousVanDorn
22-06-2009, 15:51
That's the standard that make everyone stubborn in a certian range isn't it?

I'd really not given it much thought - I liked Plaguebearers and nurglings and like the new fiends and daemonettes but the Horrors look boring to me...

Drachen_Jager
22-06-2009, 16:38
I'll second the standard of chaos glory, that's insane, it essentially makes everything within 12" unbreakable because of the demonic instability rules, you get a re-rollable Ld test and the worst case is you lose a couple of models. If that standard were in any other army people would cry cheese every time it's brought out, but in the Demon army it gets lost among all the other stuff.

Just imagine, 2-3 units of Heralded PBs with the SoCG in the middle. Absolutely unkillable, they could take nearly anything in the game on and still be above half strength at the end. Add in a BloodThirster who carefully picks his battles to pick off some points during the game and you've got a nearly unbeatable army before you even add flesh hounds and flamers and such.

Nekrodamus
22-06-2009, 17:50
Just imagine, 2-3 units of Heralded PBs with the SoCG in the middle. Absolutely unkillable, they could take nearly anything in the game on and still be above half strength at the end. Add in a BloodThirster who carefully picks his battles to pick off some points during the game and you've got a nearly unbeatable army before you even add flesh hounds and flamers and such.

No, that's not nasty at all since those four characters and the three units will cost you around 2,000 points allready. It's extremly situational like most of the power builds.

Three Battle Wizards with Lore of Fire (450 p.) will manage the slow troops easily while four cannons (400 p.) will force the GD behind cover for the whole game. More than 1,000 points left for other stuff like Lector or Wizard Lord and Steamtank(s). (Of course this is a single-sided power build too. ;))


@ PiousVanDorn

It really depends on the circumstances, whether DoC may be called overpowered or not.

Playing a fair, quite balanced DoC army is possible:
- no GD (if your opponent can't deal with heavy monsters) or only a 'naked' one
- don't repeat the heralds and units (core max. 2x each)
- refrain from using the specific anti-xxx stuff (lead reduction f.i. is fair game against dwarfs but not versus O&G)

However if you want to play on open tourneys where you may face Empire like mentioned above, Star Dragons, 4+ Stegs and the like, don't bother about 'cheese' at all since most of your victories will be hard-earned.

The so called 'nice' tourneys usually fiddle with the rules and you don't have to think about your army list for yourself, as they will forbid most of the comprehensive units / gifts.

PiousVanDorn
22-06-2009, 22:14
So is comp a big deal when building a Daemon army or do you just except you gonna get boned and go nuts?

I'm thinking of a solid core of 2 x 15-20 Plaguebearers and some Nuglings - then fast Fiends, Demonettes on the flanks and so pitch-hitter small units of Bloodletters

dal9ll
22-06-2009, 23:59
Cheesey things in the DoC list?

Bloodthirster
Plaguebearer BsB's in big Plaguebearer units
Special Character's
Multiple Flesh hounds units
MSU Horrors
Sundering Standard
Multiple/Large Flamer units
Multiple Siren Songs

Sounds like a lot but that leaves plenty of things you can still take and people can't really call you cheesy at all.

I agree. Running a GD isnt inherently cheesy. Theres so many different ways you can run them its ignorant to say that any and all of them are unfair. Hell, Ive lost GD's a zillion times. You just have to beat them in combat (IE: get a higher CR) then hope they roll poorly for Daemonic Instability.

I would also add the Standard od Despair to this list. It rocks some armies (Skaven, Goblins, Ogres, to name a few) much more than others (VC, Elves, etc.) but in general its a real toughie.

Overall, any max/min Daemon army with most likely be cheesy. Daemons in general arent cheesy and can be beaten if you know what youre dealing with.

Amlesh
23-06-2009, 00:09
The so called 'nice' tourneys usually fiddle with the rules and you don't have to think about your army list for yourself, as they will forbid most of the comprehensive units / gifts.

Not true. A lot of the 'nice' tournies here in the Midwest US that emphasize friendly lists don't tinker with rules and armies themselves. For example, we don't ban the Drakenhof Banner and count the Helm of Commandment as a Hero choice. However, there are places to draw the line.

Edit: And, just for the record, I would much rather play against a GD and three different Heralds than four Heralds.

Edit-edit: I would prefer to play against a GD and one, maybe two, Heralds. Much friendlier.

Tuch
23-06-2009, 00:38
I don't consider my Daemon army cheezy but others probably would. I run a bit of everything.

Bloodthirster
Hearld of Khorne, (mounted) Slaanesh, and Nurlge (mounted)
14 letters
20 bearers
14 nettes
5 flammers
5 hounds
and 2 fiends

Fairly basic I think. Represents all 4 powers and uses the models I like. I'm susceptible to magic of course but hopefully my speed saves me.

Briohmar
23-06-2009, 09:57
I think that my current Daemon list is pretty fair, and no-ones has cried cheese at me yet. The issue with Daemons it that there is something for everyone. I have built my list to fit into my comfort game of fast and light, with moderate magical support. Others find comfort in solid anvil units, yet others like a lot of shooting and/or magic. With the Daemons you can build what you like, and fit the list to your own play style. If you are already good with that style, then the daemonic synergy just enhances your game even more. That being said, yes Daemons can be extremely abusive, so I intentionally limit myself:

Briohmar's Band:
Herald of Slaanesh, Lvl 1, Etherblade

Herald of Slaanesh, Etherblade, BSB, Icon of Despair, Steed of Slaanesh

Herald of Slaanesh, Siren Song, Alure of Slaanesh

Herald of Tzeentch, Spell Breaker

14 Daemonettes of Slaanesh, Aluress, Banner of Ecstacy

14 Daemonettes, Aluress, Banner of Ecstacy

19 Horrors, Icon of Sorcery

6 Furies

7 Furies

5 Seekers of Slaanesh, Siren Standard

4 Flamers

2 Fiends

SevenSins
23-06-2009, 11:23
Going themed, and preferably max two gods represented generally helps on peoples opinion.
Like Briohmars list.

It's the best of all worlds thing people tend to hate. Off course a mono-tzeentch army will generally bring out cries of cheese.

Me I'm building a khorne/nurgle mix, will use a GD as I simply love the great unclean one. Will aim for an even split in god-units in core/spec/rare

Amlesh
23-06-2009, 14:12
All Khorne lists are cheese.

SevenSins
23-06-2009, 15:23
All Khorne lists are cheese.

yes having absolutely no anti-magic is really cheesy....

Talash
23-06-2009, 15:50
All Khorne lists are cheese.

If youre playing VCs with an all Khorne list I hope you LOOOOOVE zombies. All Khorne lists are, if anything, woefully underpowered against alot of magic-heavy lists.

PeG
23-06-2009, 19:48
I would say that most mono god lists are fine but will most likely be hit/miss in many match ups. Pure Khorne will make a mess out of most other combat heavy armies but will suffer against magic and lists with lots of shooting. Nurgle will often play draw against fast combat stuff, have problems with fast shooty stuff and kill slow combat things. Pure Tzeentch will be very powerful but will have big problems with things immune to flaming attacks (Dragon princes, HE dragon mages) etc.

Penitent Engine
23-06-2009, 22:00
If youre playing VCs with an all Khorne list I hope you LOOOOOVE zombies. All Khorne lists are, if anything, woefully underpowered against alot of magic-heavy lists.

Listen to him. He knows ;)
Personally the only unit I have a problem with are multiple squads of Flamers, just because they're so *&*^ ridiculously good in CC and shooting!!

Amlesh
24-06-2009, 00:44
yes having absolutely no anti-magic is really cheesy....

Hounds are fast and they hit like a ton of bricks. Bloodletter units with Heralds (who are very, very tough) are a great combat unit, and Bloodcrushers are good as shock cavalry. There's no need to have anti-magic if you're on the enemy on Turn 2.

Talash
24-06-2009, 11:34
Hounds are fast and they hit like a ton of bricks. Bloodletter units with Heralds (who are very, very tough) are a great combat unit, and Bloodcrushers are good as shock cavalry. There's no need to have anti-magic if you're on the enemy on Turn 2.

Assuming you get first turn, they still get a turn of magic and shooting, and if you dont get first turn, and your opponent is clever (Possibly even having flyers/scouts to march block you) he might be getting THREE turns of shooting and magic at you.

Hounds are great, but theres alot that can beat them. Bloodletters themselves are seen as the least effective core choice in the DoC book, and Bloodthirsters love cannons/bolt throwers/tarpits/etc.

An all Khorne list is possibly the weakest of all the DoC mono-god lists. Not as tough as Nurgle, not as magic-heavy as Tzeentch and not as fast as Slaanesh. And in fact has less magic than any of those lists. Unless youre up against Dwarves (Good luck with those warmachines) then your two dispel dice are going to struggle, even with MR1-3 units.

EvC
24-06-2009, 11:58
Why are you working on the crazy assumption that cheese only exists in one form: magic? Of course there's no magic in a mono-khorne army. Does that makes the multiple nigh-unkillable Heralds any easier to kill? Nope. Does being able to raise a gazillion Zombies help slow down the army? Yes. Shame about every army out there that isn't the #2 army in the game, they got nothing.

Talash
24-06-2009, 12:47
Why are you working on the crazy assumption that cheese only exists in one form: magic? Of course there's no magic in a mono-khorne army. Does that makes the multiple nigh-unkillable Heralds any easier to kill? Nope. Does being able to raise a gazillion Zombies help slow down the army? Yes. Shame about every army out there that isn't the #2 army in the game, they got nothing.

Why are you working on the crazy assumption that a mono-Khorne army isnt serverly hampered by having no magic?

I understand that magic is far from being the most effective tool in WFB, but to deny its usefulness is to assume that those Cannons can never take down my Bloodthirster, pfah!

Multiple Heralds on Juggernauts are cheesy, granted, but a character as powerful as that cant hold its own if its in a poor unit. So theyre either in Hounds (who lack static CR, and for all their T4, W2 and 5+ ward are still very vulnerable to shooting) or in Bloodletters, who as ive said before are generally seen as a poor alternative to other core choices.

If you want to avoid Daemon cheese, dont spam any unit. Dont take the "overpowered" gifts such as Siren Song, Obsidian Armour, etc. An all Khorne list would be (In my opinion) fine, so long as you didnt spam the above mentioned gifts. But even then, just playing Daemons gets you accused of cheese more often than not, the same as if you played VCs and (God forbid) played to their strengths and used magic.

Oh, and Lizardmen, Dark Elves, High Elves, Bretonnians and Dwarves have a whale of a time against mono-Khorne armies.

DeeKay
24-06-2009, 13:17
I think the intrinsic problem with the DoC list is the way they have put in instability, and how it has essentially made creatures with statlines of most elite armies MORE durable than Undead, this being true because, Daemons still get a Ld test and can avoid any Unstable troops altogether.

My advice, if you are planning to take a Daemon army, take the stuff you like and damn the critics. If you think that you will get flak for taking a competitive Daemon army, you might as well take a competitive list you like.

With regards,
Dan.

EvC
24-06-2009, 13:54
Why are you working on the crazy assumption that a mono-Khorne army isnt serverly hampered by having no magic?

Because it generally isn't? There are only certain combos that really hurt the Daemons: undead magic, and area effect spells. Add in Banner of Sundering and a mono-khorne army shouldn't suffer much from magic at all. Yes, the enemy may cause a casualty every now and then... that's not the same as being severely hampered.


I understand that magic is far from being the most effective tool in WFB, but to deny its usefulness is to assume that those Cannons can never take down my Bloodthirster, pfah!

Do you tend to find you lose lots of games due to magic? :)


Multiple Heralds on Juggernauts are cheesy, granted, but a character as powerful as that cant hold its own if its in a poor unit. So theyre either in Hounds (who lack static CR, and for all their T4, W2 and 5+ ward are still very vulnerable to shooting) or in Bloodletters, who as ive said before are generally seen as a poor alternative to other core choices.

Flesh Hounds and Bloodletters with Herald in them will mince most things in the game. Ok, they can't take a charge from Blood Knights or kill a Star Dragon, but even as the "poor" choice they're not bad at all.


If you want to avoid Daemon cheese, dont spam any unit.

E.g. Flesh Hounds :)


An all Khorne list would be (In my opinion) fine, so long as you didnt spam the above mentioned gifts.

Yeah they don't break the game, but they're hardly a particularly weak army. There's a reason that 7 out of 10 Daemon armies in an un-comped tournament will have a Bloodthirster.

siphon101
24-06-2009, 14:05
Assuming you get first turn, they still get a turn of magic and shooting, and if you dont get first turn, and your opponent is clever (Possibly even having flyers/scouts to march block you) he might be getting THREE turns of shooting and magic at you.

Yeah, you go ahead and try to march block an all khorne army, tell me how well that works for you. If someone is playing an all khorne army then I can virtually gaurentee you that, with the possible exceptions of flesh hounds, you will NOT be march blocking them.

Lijacote
24-06-2009, 14:16
MORE durable than Undead


Yes, much more durable than the guys who can raise their dead on one die, resurrect troops with the Blood Drinker sword... indeed.

Oh no, you lost 3 skeletons to combat resolution!

DeeKay
24-06-2009, 15:14
Yes, much more durable than the guys who can raise their dead on one die, resurrect troops with the Blood Drinker sword... indeed.

Oh no, you lost 3 skeletons to combat resolution!

It is true, the Undead do have the means to ressurect their guys. However, that can be circumvented by a decent magic defense, and simply avoiding the unit with the Blood Drinker Vampire in it (IIRC the Vampire has to be in the unit.)

Anyway, my point still stands. Daemonic Instability isn't really that unstable, considering the durability and damage output that models/units in the DoC book are capable of.

To the OP, just go for the things that you like the look of and you can't go far wrong. Oh, and I've yet to hear someone cry "cheese" at a Daemon Prince.

With regards,
Dan.

willowdark
24-06-2009, 15:18
Yeah, you go ahead and try to march block an all khorne army, tell me how well that works for you. If someone is playing an all khorne army then I can virtually gaurentee you that, with the possible exceptions of flesh hounds, you will NOT be march blocking them.

I don't understand this post. With the exception of Furies, I can't think of a single counter a mono-Khorne army can utilize against scouts or fliers who can march block from the rear. Harpies, Eagles, warhawks, terradons, and some others should be free to march block you from the rear. And your Furies will likely get shot to death or blasted with magic that your army has no counter for.

Unless I'm missing something.

Talash
24-06-2009, 15:29
I don't understand this post. With the exception of Furies, I can't think of a single counter a mono-Khorne army can utilize against scouts or fliers who can march block from the rear. Harpies, Eagles, warhawks, terradons, and some others should be free to march block you from the rear. And your Furies will likely get shot to death or blasted with magic that your army has no counter for.

Unless I'm missing something.

Dont worry, youre not. That person just didnt know what they were talking about. Unless they want to demote their Bloodthirster to chasing after scouts and fliers all game.

Da GoBBo
24-06-2009, 15:36
I don't know deamons at all, but I heard the army gets sick ones you put heralds in units? That they get all sorts of whicked abilities for free in that composition? Maybe you should just avoid that and still be able to take any unit you like.

EvC
24-06-2009, 15:42
I don't understand this post. With the exception of Furies, I can't think of a single counter a mono-Khorne army can utilize against scouts or fliers who can march block from the rear. Harpies, Eagles, warhawks, terradons, and some others should be free to march block you from the rear.

That would be the ability of each Bloodletter (And Bloodcrusher) unit to take a banner that means they can never be march-blocked. You'd think Talash would have heard of this Icon, especially the way he talks down to siphon for not knowing what he's talking about...

Would still like to know how often your army's lack of magic costs you the game by the way Talash? :)

Talash
24-06-2009, 15:45
I don't know deamons at all, but I heard the army gets sick ones you put heralds in units? That they get all sorts of whicked abilities for free in that composition? Maybe you should just avoid that and still be able to take any unit you like.

Its true that they impart a series of nice bonuses (Depending on the Herald/Unit) but some of those units without the heralds are very poor indeed. Tzeentch and Khorne dont lose all THAT much without their heralds, but Daemonettes without ASF and Plaguebearers without Regen arent anything to write home about for 12pts per model. With ASF or Regen theyre an absolute steal for those points, though as soon as the herald dies (Admittedly alot harder on a Nurgle herald) the unit loses that bonus.

All in all id say if you want to take four heralds (One as a BSB of course) and no Greater Daemon, thats pretty much "fair" for a DoC army. Just dont do the same four units!

Talash
24-06-2009, 15:48
That would be the ability of each Bloodletter (And Bloodcrusher) unit to take a banner that means they can never be march-blocked. You'd think Talash would have heard of this Icon, especially the way he talks down to siphon for not knowing what he's talking about...

Would still like to know how often your army's lack of magic costs you the game by the way Talash? :)

True, I forgot about that banner, and it would certainly be top of the list if you wanted an all Khorne list! Good point.

To be honest, the only times I dont use much magic is in my WoC list, and it becomes very hit and miss. Against magic weak armies I trash them, but against magic heavy lists I get trashed in return. Ergo, I feel almost all lists need some vestige of magic defence, though as ive previously stated an all Khorne list would not be UNDERpowered, but at the same time I dont feel it would be OVERpowered either. And against some armies the lack of magic defence would most likely lose you the game completely.

EvC
24-06-2009, 16:16
Yeah, I agree- primarily armies that don't cast their spells on their enemies can really lay into Khornate armies- but then these spells are often of the raising ability, and Khornate armies are damn fine at chopping through hordes of undead :D

Talash
24-06-2009, 16:23
Yeah, I agree- primarily armies that don't cast their spells on their enemies can really lay into Khornate armies- but then these spells are often of the raising ability, and Khornate armies are damn fine at chopping through hordes of undead :D

True, but speaking as an OK player I love giving my troops either Regeneration or +1T and Stubborn, with only two dispel dice to stop me.

End of the day ill stick by my summary and original point - All Khorne armies are great. Theyre fun, hit like a brick ********* and are magic-phase-risk-free, but also have some severe limitations which makes them far from cheesy, broken or overpowered.

willowdark
24-06-2009, 16:38
That would be the ability of each Bloodletter (And Bloodcrusher) unit to take a banner that means they can never be march-blocked. You'd think Talash would have heard of this Icon, especially the way he talks down to siphon for not knowing what he's talking about...



Sweat! So I was missing something.

Even the icon of endless war would be effective against most march blocking tactics. But March Blocking Flesh hounds would still be incredibly effective since they'd be important shooting targets. Bloodletters would be slow enough on their own and Bloodcrushers would have to be baited, so I'd say march blocking is still a good tactic and a big liability for a mono-Khorne army, considering your flesh hounds are your bread and butter.