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View Full Version : A Question About Magical "Always Stike Last"



Morglum5780
22-06-2009, 14:02
Chatax has an ability that says anybody wishing to attack him in a challenge strikes last even if they have ASF, etc. My wood elf lord has a WE magic item 'amber pendent' says anything in base to base with me does the same thing. if these 2 heroes fight each other in a challenge, does that mean our special rules negate each other and everything is done by normal rules, including charging, initiative and great weapon s hitting last?

Kevlar
22-06-2009, 14:04
I'd say both special rules work and you just roll off to see who attacks first. Ignore stuff like initiative, charging, etc.

Morglum5780
22-06-2009, 14:31
even though if those 2 characters had ASF it would resort to initiative order (as per the 2nd FAQ)?

Milgram
22-06-2009, 14:31
(it's like two guys with great weapons attack each other in the second round of a combat. you. whoever has won the combat the round before goes first, if it was a draw, roll a dice.)

I have to look this up in the BRB at home, therefore I've put this between parentheses.


/edit: now I have the book here, initiative goes before win. rtunian is right. :)

rtunian
22-06-2009, 14:54
"who won last round" is how you solve an initiative tie. you go special rules, then initiative, then who won last round, then d6

theunwantedbeing
22-06-2009, 15:09
Irresistable force meets the immovable object scenario.
Roll off to see whoose works.

Ultimate Life Form
22-06-2009, 15:16
Irresistable force meets the immovable object scenario.
Roll off to see whoose works.

I suppose the striking order is determined anew every close combat phase?

Milgram
22-06-2009, 15:49
"who won last round" is how you solve an initiative tie. you go special rules, then initiative, then who won last round, then d6

even when you get to great weapons that clearly state 'if it comes to initiative, you always strike last'? well, that would fit with the crappy HE ruling...

Morglum5780
22-06-2009, 16:04
so even in the case of chatax being a saurus with a GW and me being an elf with a hand weapon, who charged, we roll off to see who attacks first?

Ultimate Life Form
22-06-2009, 16:06
It doesn't matter how you're equipped if the enemy's rule says you go last. And for God's sake, it's ChaKax!

Morglum5780
22-06-2009, 16:10
has me misspelling that twice in this thread really ruined your day? :P

Ultimate Life Form
22-06-2009, 16:19
I never thought that something that trivial could ever get to me. But reading these forums for over half a year, it really starts annoying me that people can't even be bothered to put a minimum of thought into what they write. "Chatax" is still okay, it could even be a simple typo of the sort which happens to me as well sometimes, and you can still read it. But the problem is, the virus spreads... and at the moment we have a 70% name misspelling rate. Seriously, I don't think this is a good thing.

And from time to time, threads pop up with titles where you can only guess what the topic is because the name of the Item/Rule/Character has been disfigured beyond recognition. I don't know what these people think, but it doesn't make me want to answer for sure.

Urgat
22-06-2009, 17:05
I never thought that something that trivial could ever get to me. But reading these forums for over half a year, it really starts annoying me that people can't even be bothered to put a minimum of thought into what they write. "Chatax" is still okay, it could even be a simple typo of the sort which happens to me as well sometimes, and you can still read it. But the problem is, the virus spreads... and at the moment we have a 70% name misspelling rate. Seriously, I don't think this is a good thing.

I got to admit I never quite know how to spell Wurrzagh, even though he's one of my favourite greenskin characters... :p

Milgram
22-06-2009, 17:23
Altimate Life Form has a point there (acronym pun intended).

rtunian
22-06-2009, 17:48
even when you get to great weapons that clearly state 'if it comes to initiative, you always strike last'? well, that would fit with the crappy HE ruling...

the situation as described by the op is both sides have "enemy always strikes last". since both sides are subject to the same strike order rule, it goes next to initiative, and if they had the same init then it would go to who won the last round, and if the last round was a draw (or if its the first round) then dice off.

nosferatu1001
22-06-2009, 21:49
"strikes last" /= "always strikes last" - if they did then ASF and charging would override it.

When you have 2 magical items that conflict then you roll a D6 [each round] to determine which item works. Initiative order etc never comes into play.

Ganymede
22-06-2009, 22:15
This is a situation where a die roll is most appropriate, but another sensible solution is to allow the effects of the two items to cancel out.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 02:49
I never thought that something that trivial could ever get to me. But reading these forums for over half a year, it really starts annoying me that people can't even be bothered to put a minimum of thought into what they write. "Chatax" is still okay, it could even be a simple typo of the sort which happens to me as well sometimes, and you can still read it. But the problem is, the virus spreads... and at the moment we have a 70% name misspelling rate. Seriously, I don't think this is a good thing.

And from time to time, threads pop up with titles where you can only guess what the topic is because the name of the Item/Rule/Character has been disfigured beyond recognition. I don't know what these people think, but it doesn't make me want to answer for sure.

Doesn't it just **** you off seeing all these people saying "Skaven" when the rumors thread CLEARLY points out that its pronounced "Scaven".
















:D

Templar_Victorious
02-07-2009, 01:22
How come?

The K is followed by a hard vocal, that usually means you say it with the k-tone, instead of a soft vocal, like "e" for instance. Just wondering.

Spirit
02-07-2009, 01:30
How come?

The K is followed by a hard vocal, that usually means you say it with the k-tone, instead of a soft vocal, like "e" for instance. Just wondering.

You either missed the joke or your being very witty, but i'm not sure which. lol

someone2040
02-07-2009, 03:58
Doesn't the Great Weapon just have "Strikes Last" rather than Always? I mean, do Great Weapons strike last when you charge?
Chakax has the rule where the opponent Automatically Strikes Last. Too me, automatically overrules the Great Weapon rules.

Lord Dan
02-07-2009, 03:59
Wouldn't the rules for ASL vs. ASL follow the BRB/FAQ explanation for ASF vs. ASF? In that because ASF has ignored things like GW, charging, etc, you automatically revert to initiative.

So if you're WE lord charged Chazax, then the ASL rule for the WE lord would cause Chikkex to strike last, and the ASL rule from Chapex would cause the charge from your WE lord to be negated. You would then go right to initiative. ...or you'd be locked in a time eluding vortex spurred by the RAW paradox.

nosferatu1001
02-07-2009, 11:22
The trouble is "always strike last" does not have an explanation in the book - ASF does. So you have 2 magic items in direct conflict. What are you told to do when 2 magic items contradict each other? Thats right, D6 it, each round as needed.

You do not go to initiative because nothings says you can do so.

someone2040 - yes, as I stated before "strikes last" /= "always strikes last" - the latter is not a defined rule in the main book but a specific set of wording for some items. ASL means you go last regardless of ASF, charging, Initiative, etc.

rtunian
02-07-2009, 15:16
nos, it is NOT a leap to apply the asf rules to asl. this is using part of the most important rule that you are neglecting:

"be prepared to interpret a situation that is not fully covered by the rules."

you don't just become stubborn and d6 every time. you think about it first. talk about it second. and if you can't reach a conclusion in a reasonable amount of time, you dice off as a last resort.

nosferatu1001
02-07-2009, 16:13
Except dicing off isnt the last resort in this case - you are specifically told what to do when magic items conflict.

rtunian
02-07-2009, 19:23
well, the most important rule on p3, where it talks about dicing off, and lists the quote i gave, does not say anything about magic items in conflict (edit: nor do i see mention of dice off in the magic items section on p120-1). would you give the page number that has the rule you are referring to?

nosferatu1001
03-07-2009, 00:06
Hmm, I've spotted it before - it's probably a FAQ answer to something like "dreadlance vs annoyance of nettlings"

You could jumpt to init, however it really seems like a direct conflict situation where only one should work.

Brother captain Agrippa
03-07-2009, 09:51
i thought that if two units have always strikes first/last, and one of them charges that unit gets to go first``??

Necromancy Black
03-07-2009, 10:00
the German Lizardmen FAQ is out, and says Chakax still strikes first (as in it doesn't matter that he has a great weapon)

I highly expect the English one to say the same.

Valaraukar
07-07-2009, 16:19
The issue is not about a great weapon though, it is about two magic items both of which state the opponent will always strike last and how to resolve this contradiction.

There is also the Daemonic gift for Nurgle which has a similar rule but is 'not a magic item' so if there is an FAQ specifically talking about dicing off when two magic items contradict one another it would not apply in this case.

I think you may be confused with the rule of dicing off when a situation occurs which is not covered by the rules and you come up with two different interpretations of what to do. If that does happen and you and your opponent can't agree on a resoultion i.e to follow the ruling for ASF then you should dice off.

I think personally I would just assume all of these items/gifts cancel each other out and you revert to normal initiative etc. order.

N810
07-07-2009, 17:48
Heres the US link.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m220263a_LizardmenFAQJuly2009.pdf

(Chakax still strikes first)

Ultimate Life Form
07-07-2009, 21:01
I think this is really easy. As the FAQ puts it: Chakax strikes first. There is no real need for any further discussion. The pure awesomeness of Chakax overrides all other rules in all other books and makes him the ultimate firststriker!:D

Just for him, they should invent the "Always strikes 0th" rule!:p

PeG
07-07-2009, 22:31
The FAQ only says that he will normally strike first despite that he has a great weapon. Neither the question or the reply says anything about a situation in which the opponent also has an item or ability that makes you strike last such as the WE item or daemon gift.

Either roll off or decide before the game if you will use initiative (in line with ASF) or simply ignore the ASL rule if the situation arises. Personally I believe that the current RAW is to roll off while it would make sense to use initiative (due to ASF ruling).

Necromancy Black
07-07-2009, 23:48
What's the wording of the WE magic item? Because Chakax's rules say that his opponant automatically strikes last even if they have charged or have an ability to say otherwise. I was just wondering does teh WE have the same wording, that it happens regardless of what the opponent has to counter it?

If so, I or dice it.

Loq-Gor
07-07-2009, 23:58
The two rules are worded almost identically. I have come across this problem before as I like to use Chakax and one of my usual opponents is WE. As per the most important rule we have created a house rule that says ASL works the same as ASF, but obviously trumps it.

PeG
08-07-2009, 09:14
Both rules have almost identical wording similar to the daemon gift that makes your enemy strika last. It clearly wins before ASF (this is in the rules) and I would go to initiative if to ASL units are hitting each other.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-07-2009, 10:14
I agree PeG, that sounds reasonable.

Templar_Victorious
08-07-2009, 16:33
You either missed the joke or your being very witty, but i'm not sure which. lol

English isn't my main language, so I might have very well missed the joke.