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View Full Version : Can Archaon be killing blowed? [closed: repetitive]



greenmonsta
23-06-2009, 00:48
1. So can he?

2. Also I was in a situation where a unit of ironguts with a butcher had a buff put on them and in a later round of cc all the ironguts killed leaving the butcher alive. My question is whether the butcher would keep the buff or not. My opinion is that the buff was put on the unit and not specifically on the butcher, so when the unit dies the buff goes away. Is that true?

Thanx

Talash
23-06-2009, 01:02
1. So can he?

2. Also I was in a situation where a unit of ironguts with a butcher had a buff put on them and in a later round of cc all the ironguts killed leaving the butcher alive. My question is whether the butcher would keep the buff or not. My opinion is that the buff was put on the unit and not specifically on the butcher, so when the unit dies the buff goes away. Is that true?

Thanx

1. Yes he can, though he will get his 3+ ward save of course.

2. No, the butcher keeps the buff if the player wishes. The errata states that if a character leaves a unit that has a buff currently on it, the player decides if the buff will stay on the character and leave the unit, or stay with the unit and so the character will lose it when he leaves. If a character is in the unit when the buff is cast, and the unit is subsiquently destroyed whilst he is still with them, he may indeed keep the buff.

Braad
23-06-2009, 17:50
1. Indeed. He is just human sized (US1 or 2), and therefore he would need a special rule to make him immune. As far as I can see from the rules here, he doesn't have any.

DirtyCajun
23-06-2009, 22:33
1. No he can't be killing blowed as his base size is too big.

2. He keeps the buff if the unit was destroyed around him as opposed to him leaving it.

Lord Dan
23-06-2009, 22:34
2. He keeps the buff if the unit was destroyed around him as opposed to him leaving it.

Though as per the FAQ he may choose to drop it. I don't know when this would come into play, but it's noteworthy.

Ultimate Life Form
23-06-2009, 22:46
1. No he can't be killing blowed as his base size is too big.


:confused:

This is about killing Archaon, not his base.

Arnizipal
23-06-2009, 22:46
1. No he can't be killing blowed as his base size is too big.Base size has nothing to do with it. You could land a Killing Blow on a lord on a dragon or a hero in a chariot. The Unit Strength of the model in question (without counting that if his mount in case he's riding a monster or a chariot) is all that matters.

DirtyCajun
23-06-2009, 22:58
Except that his mount is not monstrous. IIRC it has 1 wound and it makes his base size larger than cavarly base which in the brb says can't be killing blowed as he's not a mansized target.

EDIt: IIRC he's unit strenght is 3or 4 due to his base size.

larabic
23-06-2009, 23:04
Base size doesn't matter, Mounted Khorne Demons are on 50x50's but still only have a US2 and can be killing blowed. Unless it says his US is highier then 2 somewhere he can be killed.

Spirit
23-06-2009, 23:05
Except that his mount is not monstrous. IIRC it has 1 wound and it makes his base size larger than cavarly base which in the brb says can't be killing blowed as he's not a mansized target.

EDIt: IIRC he's unit strenght is 3or 4 due to his base size.

If its a 1 wound mount, its US1

Unless archaon has a rule, he is a US1 infantry model (on a horse)

1+1 = more than 2?

DirtyCajun
23-06-2009, 23:09
Except by his base size and wound count he's US 4. Much like trolls are US3. His base is or around 40mm. according to the rules he's a big monster without the large target rule. So you count his total wound as his US which is 4? Please refrain from arguing further this is indisputable and quite clear from the BRB.

DirtyCajun
23-06-2009, 23:13
Base size doesn't matter, Mounted Khorne Demons are on 50x50's but still only have a US2 and can be killing blowed. Unless it says his US is highier then 2 somewhere he can be killed.



1st all deamons are immune to killing blow.
2nd it follows the rules for base size with it's wounds being two giving it US2.
3rd read your BRB before posting in the rules thread again. Under base sized it says 40MM bases you use the number of wounds as the models US. Ergo 2 wound models on 50mm bases ares till US2 but a Bloothirster is US5.

Supreme Archon Orlok
23-06-2009, 23:26
1st all deamons are immune to killing blow.

Errrr.... no actually daemons are not immune to killing blow, you might be thinking of 40K daemons.

With Archaon I would assume no cause of the monstrous mount and big base but I'm no expert.

DirtyCajun
23-06-2009, 23:52
LOL thnaks for pointing that out switching between the systems with both armies has it's side effects. None the less my point about his base size is spot on. It's because of his base size he unit stregth is determined by his wounds and thus he is immune to killing blow.

Templar_Victorious
23-06-2009, 23:52
Except by his base size and wound count he's US 4. Much like trolls are US3. His base is or around 40mm. according to the rules he's a big monster without the large target rule. So you count his total wound as his US which is 4? Please refrain from arguing further this is indisputable and quite clear from the BRB.

That's quite the bully style you got there.

Pathosis
23-06-2009, 23:59
By this logic, putting a hero on a dragon makes it immune to killing blow?

Spirit
24-06-2009, 00:18
Except by his base size and wound count he's US 4. Much like trolls are US3. His base is or around 40mm. according to the rules he's a big monster without the large target rule. So you count his total wound as his US which is 4? Please refrain from arguing further this is indisputable and quite clear from the BRB.

Ok, please explain why it is indesputable before being such an **** to everyone.

The table on BrB page 71


Roughly man sized ----- (Not valid, model is not man sized)

Up to and including ogre sized, 40/50mm base, on foot. ----- (not valid, model is not on foot)

Monster, any base/ no base ----- (not valid, archaon is not a monster)

Cavalry, 25x50mm, US2 ----- (technically not valid, but im willing to bet that this is the most valid one, because the 50x50mm daemon models still count as cavalry, but i'll need soemone with more expertise to point that one out)

Chariot, ----- (not valid)

Ridden monster/chariot ----- (not valid, horse is not a monster)

War machine / unit of flyers / flying cavelry ----- (clearly not valid)


So kindly tell me why it is so obvious in the rule book? The way i see the US table is that the most valid one for archaon is a US2 cavalry model. What are you looking at.

Also, while we're at it, kindly refrain from telling me to stop posting due to a flawed argument, while you post your own flawed arguments.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 00:20
By this logic, putting a hero on a dragon makes it immune to killing blow?

No because the rule for killing blow regarding characters on chariots or monsters says that as long as the rider of a monster is less than US2, he can be killing blown regardless of mount US / size.

Supreme Archon Orlok
24-06-2009, 00:34
Hmmmm.........

Archaons mount is a Daemonic mount, so it's not a monstrous creature, just a cavalry mount, the base size has no effect on Archaons susceptibillity to Killing blow, Archaon and Dorghar are unit strength 2.

Necromancy Black
24-06-2009, 00:40
Spirit has it right. The mount is not a monstrous mount and Archaon is not on foot, so he has to be Calvary.

EvC
24-06-2009, 00:40
In the Warriors book, Daemonic Steeds such as the one Archaon rides are confirmed as being cavalry mounts, so therefore archaon is a cavalry model, and so can be KBed.

Sorry, err, I mean... Daemons can't be killing blowed, Vampires can only be killed by silver weapons, Dwarfs can't cross obstacles and Elves are wear dressed. Check your BRBs if you don't believe me, they're very clear.

stripsteak
24-06-2009, 00:43
archaon is the same as tyrion, or pegasus knights. cav that use larger bases.

Talash
24-06-2009, 00:45
With regards to Unit Strength its never very difficult. If a model has a mount its one of three things - A cavalry mount (ie, has 1 wound on its profile), a monsterous mount (has 2 wounds or more on its profile) or a chariot, in which case it would be clearly defined as such. There may be SOME exceptions, but they would be clearly defined in the relevant army book.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 00:51
Sorry, err, I mean... Daemons can't be killing blowed, Vampires can only be killed by silver weapons, Dwarfs can't cross obstacles and Elves are wear dressed. Check your BRBs if you don't believe me, they're very clear.

Dont forget that high elves fear all dark elves because of their scary faces and ever so slightly pointier ears. Ive checked it!

DirtyCajun
24-06-2009, 00:52
Well I'd argue that archaeon hasd more in common with a dragon ogre than cavalry as cavarly is defined as 25x50mm bases pg .71, and Dorghhar isn't a mountrous mounts as is has 1 wound pg 59. so he must fall under ther larger than 40mm bases. Cavalry is also clearly defined on pg7 as being 25x50mm bases. I don't see anywhere where on foot is defined. So he'd fall under ogre, dragon ogre group and thus be immune to killing blow. Find a definistion for on foot and you might have an argument otherwise your misleading people and being an ass


Edit: Dorghar isn't mention as a daemonic steed anywhere in the book ether. He's not listed as anything other than wargear as a daemonic beast not steed and it may seem petty but when your rules lawyering it's importants just like the word herald in the daemon's codex.

2nd edit: the only D.Steeds are listed as d.steeds, juggernaughts,discs,and palaquins. there is no ... or etc. or anything that would imply things not explicitely listed.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 00:57
Well I'd argue that archaeon hasd more in common with a dragon ogre than cavalry as cavarly is defined as 25x50mm bases pg .71,

Cavalry is defined that way, but like everyone has told you, the daemon cavalry is 50x50 and still counts as cavalry.


Dorghhar isn't a mountrous mounts as is has 1 wound pg 59. so he must fall under ther larger than 40mm bases.

No, because that section of the US table is for "Monsters" and if you look at how "monsters" are defined in the BrB, you will see that archaon is not one.


Cavalry is also clearly defined on pg7 as being 25x50mm bases. I don't see anywhere where on foot is defined. So he'd fall under ogre, dragon ogre group and thus be immune to killing blow. Find a definistion for on foot and you might have an argument otherwise your misleading people and being an ass



What is your argument for on foot then? Why is "on foot" it in the rulebook? If your saying that a mounted model is on the horses "feet" then you arent going to get very far im afraid.

Archaon cannot be an ogre model for US, because he is mounted on a horse, not on foot.




Edit: "on foot" is defined as an infantry model, on a 20mm, 25mm, or 40mm base. Archaon is none of these. Page 7 BrB.

Your being the **** here mate, and it's most definitely you being misleading. Not the rest of us.

Shamfrit
24-06-2009, 00:59
This is funny, it truly is.

Archaon is a character, on a cavalry model. The model in question is Dorghar, who is not a monstrous mount, not an ogre, not a Dragon Ogres, not a Dragon, and he's certainly NOT US3.

If he was a monstrous mount, it would clearly be stated in his rules. (Which it isn't...) He has one wound, and Archaon is a US1 character...doing the math, that means he's US2.

I think the fact he's on a horse works pretty well too :wtf:

Spirit
24-06-2009, 01:05
This is funny, it truly is.

Archaon is a character, on a cavalry model. The model in question is Dorghar, who is not a monstrous mount, not an ogre, not a Dragon Ogres, not a Dragon, and he's certainly NOT US3.

If he was a monstrous mount, it would clearly be stated in his rules. (Which it isn't...) He has one wound, and Archaon is a US1 character...doing the math, that means he's US2.

I think the fact he's on a horse works pretty well too :wtf:


If its a 1 wound mount, its US1

Unless archaon has a rule, he is a US1 infantry model (on a horse)

1+1 = more than 2?


Yay for agreement! More eloquently put agreement, but agreement none the less! :p

Talash
24-06-2009, 01:06
C'mon guys, give him a break. To be honest its an easy mistake to make - Archaon is only Unit Strength 2 because of the rules. Easy thing to forget...

Seriously, is it difficult to understand? Model on a single wound mount = Cavalry. Cavalry = Unit Strength 2. GW stopped using base size as an implication of unit strength and type when the HE Dragon was boxed with a chariot base, etc.

DirtyCajun
24-06-2009, 01:13
Dorghar doesn't have to be a horse. It's an older GW model and you could just aswell model it to look like anything as it's a wargear item / gift from the gods which in many places in the daemons codex and other places could easily be modeled differently from it's name. If you greenstuffed a fireball that archeaon was riding would his rules be different? Also daemon cavalry are explicitily listed as cavarly despite their base sizes archeaon isn't. Also his base should roughly be 40mm or bigger so he could be classified as infantry. His US is 3 get over it. Unless you find somethig that says he's cavarly then he's immune to killing blow. Dorghar is never in any place on any page reffered to as a daemonic steed or cavalry. Archaen can never be seperated in game from doragh under any rules or circumstances so it's more seperatefrom him that a dragon ogre's leg. Unless an errata changes anything above Archaeon must be classified a larger than mansize enemy with US 3

Shadowfax
24-06-2009, 01:13
I was going to make a separate thread for my question, but since this thread was right at the time I figured I might as well throw it in here, since it's vaguely related.

Does the ranged version of Killing Blow work on war machines?

DirtyCajun
24-06-2009, 01:18
Aha!!!!! Archeon is almost immune to killing blow! The one exception is skulltaker in a challenge. This is the one way you could pull it off.

Shamfrit
24-06-2009, 01:19
If it looks like a horse...

If it has 4 horse-like legs...

If it has a horse's head...

If it's referred to in any way as horsy, steed, Binky or George...

If it gallops...

If it has a mane and likes to poo on Granny Ogg's shoes...

Chances are good sir, (it being the STEED of the Apocalypse and all) that what you are indeed looking at, is...funnily enough...

Un cheval grande...

*Facepalm.*

Ultimate Life Form
24-06-2009, 01:20
I was going to make a separate thread for my question, but since this thread was right at the time I figured I might as well throw it in here, since it's vaguely related.

Does the ranged version of Killing Blow work on war machines?



On their crew, yes. Unless the individual model is US3 or up, but I don't know of any. Oh, and should the crew have unusual base sizes...:angel:

Talash
24-06-2009, 01:21
Dorghar doesn't have to be a horse. It's an older GW model and you could just aswell model it to look like anything as it's a wargear item / gift from the gods which in many places in the daemons codex and other places could easily be modeled differently from it's name. If you greenstuffed a fireball that archeaon was riding would his rules be different? Also daemon cavalry are explicitily listed as cavarly despite their base sizes archeaon isn't. Also his base should roughly be 40mm or bigger so he could be classified as infantry. His US is 3 get over it. Unless you find somethig that says he's cavarly then he's immune to killing blow. Dorghar is never in any place on any page reffered to as a daemonic steed or cavalry. Archaen can never be seperated in game from doragh under any rules or circumstances so it's more seperatefrom him that a dragon ogre's leg. Unless an errata changes anything above Archaeon must be classified a larger than mansize enemy with US 3

No. No no no. LISTEN.

Y'hear? Liiiiiiiisten.

Right, listening? Good. Archaon's mount, is a mount, right? His mount has 1 wound, right? With me on this? Yeah? Good, lets continue.

A mount, right, with one wound, thats 1 wound. One. Is a cavalry mount. Okay? Got that? So... We have a model, Archaon, on a single, one, uno wound mount. That makes him a cavalry model. That makes him unit strength 2. Do you get that? I know its hard, but heres the kicker:

Thats the rule.

That help at all?

Necromancy Black
24-06-2009, 01:22
The only entry he fits for US3 is only when on foot. If you can find something to say a mounted model is on foot then he's US3, else he's US2.

A Slann is a monster, that's clear, but GW have said because he does not walk he's also not on foot. So while on foot is not defined, it's clear that they mean the model moves without any more of mount or magical ability. He's not on foot, he's not a monster as he's 2 parts to him, therefore he doesn't meet the criteria for being US3.

You'll have as much luck arguing over a set rule for being on foot as you would with what a magical attack is.


on another note, it would bloody help if GW actually gave what each models US was with their profile.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 01:23
Dorghar doesn't have to be a horse. It's an older GW model and you could just aswell model it to look like anything as it's a wargear item / gift from the gods which in many places in the daemons codex and other places could easily be modeled differently from it's name. If you greenstuffed a fireball that archeaon was riding would his rules be different?

It doesnt have to be a horse, but i has to be a MOUNT, and it has to have ONE WOUND.

It doesnt matter if your mount is a horse, a pig, a flying chipmunk or a baby giraffe, if it's,

A: A mount
B: Has one wound

then it is

C: US1.




Also his base should roughly be 40mm or bigger so he could be classified as infantry.

If you are MOUNTED, then you are NOT infantry, regardless of base size.


His US is 3 get over it.

He is US2 get over it


Unless you find somethig that says he's cavarly then he's immune to killing blow.

It's in the rules for one wound mounts.


Dorghar is never in any place on any page reffered to as a daemonic steed or cavalry. Archaen can never be seperated in game from doragh under any rules or circumstances so it's more seperatefrom him that a dragon ogre's leg.

Despite you not making much sense, it it not like a dragon ogre, it is like a 1 wound mount + rider. Not that a dragon ogres leg does not have a separate profile.

Falkman
24-06-2009, 01:24
Seriously guys, stop feeding the troll.
Everyone here except Cajun agrees Archaon is a cavalry model, so if Cajun wants to believe Archaon is a monster, let him. No one is ever going to allow him to play with him like that anyway.

Troah
24-06-2009, 01:24
No. No no no. LISTEN.

Y'hear? Liiiiiiiisten.

Right, listening? Good. Archaon's mount, is a mount, right? His mount has 1 wound, right? With me on this? Yeah? Good, lets continue.

A mount, right, with one wound, thats 1 wound. One. Is a cavalry mount. Okay? Got that? So... We have a model, Archaon, on a single, one, uno wound mount. That makes him a cavalry model. That makes him unit strength 2. Do you get that? I know its hard, but heres the kicker:

Thats the rule.

That help at all?

ROFL! Oh my God I love you.

Shadowfax
24-06-2009, 01:26
On their crew, yes. Unless the individual model is US3 or up, but I don't know of any. Oh, and should the crew have unusual base sizes...:angel:
What about when the hit is randomized to strike the machine itself?

No effect, or can you try to blow it up by rolling a 6?

Shamfrit
24-06-2009, 01:26
Bummer...my Discworld jokes got swamped...

Troah
24-06-2009, 01:28
What about when the hit is randomized to strike the machine itself?

No effect, or can you try to blow it up by rolling a 6?


Killing blow does not work on warmachines.

Ultimate Life Form
24-06-2009, 01:34
What about when the hit is randomized to strike the machine itself?

No effect, or can you try to blow it up by rolling a 6?

Whoa, you just found an interesting point. I checked the rules again and it says a War machine has US equal to the number of crew remaining. Does that mean a War machine with 2 crew can be killing blown? Rule says only prerequisite is US2. I'm not sure...:confused:

Geep
24-06-2009, 01:34
Archon can definitely be killing blowed. He's a US 1 character, no matter what you put him on (note what I say about horses below).

If he was on a regular horse- the horse has it's own profile and is US1. As he cannot be targetted independently of the steed the Unit Strength's are added. (Total US 2).
If he could go on a dragon- the dragon has it's own profile and US, but the dragon and guy on top are seperate targets. Unit Strengths do not add. Guy on top is US 1.

Base size is irrelevant to killing blow when it comes to mounted characters. Wounds of a single character are irrelevant for Unit Strength and therefore killing blow (Unless you get up to monster characters).

He is not like a dragon ogre- Dragon ogres do not have a seperate profile for their lower half. I'll let you think of him as an ogre if you want... but he can still be killing blowed.


For ranged attacks- Lethal Shot (the Waywatcher special rule) states that it gives Killing Blow at short range. This means it follows all normal KB rules, and probably can't kill a war machine.

Edit: wow... seriously ninja'd

Falkman
24-06-2009, 01:34
Bummer...my Discworld jokes got swamped...
No I saw it, it was nice.
/friendly pat

Necromancy Black
24-06-2009, 01:35
Killing blow does not work on warmachines.

Read through the rules and read the second warhammer FAQ.

Warmachines have no rule at all saying they are immune to killing blow.
A warmachine unit has a US equal to it's crew, but as per the second BRB faq, the warmachine itself has a US of 0.

Not "undefined" as some people have said in the past, but 0.

0 is US 2 or less, therefore warmachines can be destroyed by killing blow.

Ultimate Life Form
24-06-2009, 01:38
0 is US 2 or less, therefore warmachines can be destroyed by killing blow.

Ah, thank you. Learn something new every day.:)

DirtyCajun
24-06-2009, 01:45
ignore me all you want but I've sighted pages and the rules and all you've done is argue symantics.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 01:51
ignore me all you want but I've sighted pages and the rules and all you've done is argue symantics.

Well sum it up for us then please, because i cannot find any valid rules that you've posted. Your the one arguing semantics via your reasoning for models being "on foot".

Why is archaon unit strength 3?

Why is he not considered to be riding a mount with a single wound?

stripsteak
24-06-2009, 01:54
tyrion, and pegasus knights also follow the same design as archaon
us 1 mount, ridden by us1 models = cavalry = us2
kb works against us 2 models.

Necromancy Black
24-06-2009, 01:56
ignore me all you want but I've sighted pages and the rules and all you've done is argue symantics.

You've sighted all those rules wrong.

To be US3 he has to have a 40mm or 50mm base and be on foot. He has the first but he's not on foot, therefore that rule does not apply to him.

So he takes up the only remaining US which is 2.

Grimgormx
24-06-2009, 01:57
killing blow affects any model with US 1 or 2, Archaon alone has US 1, mounted the whole unit may go to US 2, but archaon has US 1 anyway, so he can be killed, thats why he has such a good WS 3.

Only character I remember now that has US over 3 without being an ogre is skarsnik, that shares Wounds with Gobbla, they are inmune to killing blow.

If it was a matter of wounds and base size I would mount Grimgor in a 50x50 base, so he would be inmune to KB (take that you pesky DE assasins) but .... it cant be done.

What matters is the US of the character, not the mount. so almost all characters (except Ogres and a shagot whose name I dont remember, and that ancient Kroxigor character) and they can de KB by some especial rules.

Dont Cry, Archaon with a ws of 3 is almost unkillable, your oponent would need a lot of good luck, and you would need a loot of bad luck for that to happend

HellRaid
24-06-2009, 02:00
What about when the hit is randomized to strike the machine itself?

No effect, or can you try to blow it up by rolling a 6?

According to one of the BRB FAQs, the war machine itself has a unit strength of 0. So yes, technically you can KB it (though most people won't like it). Personally I think it's fitting - imagine a skilled marksman hitting a vulnerable and difficult-to-replace part of a war machine (such as snapping the ropes of a trebuchet).



If it looks like a horse...

If it has 4 horse-like legs...

If it has a horse's head...

If it's referred to in any way as horsy, steed, Binky or George...

If it gallops...

If it has a mane and likes to poo on Granny Ogg's shoes...

Chances are good sir, (it being the STEED of the Apocalypse and all) that what you are indeed looking at, is...funnily enough...

Un cheval grande...

*Facepalm.*

The internets, sir.

You win them.

Cragum
24-06-2009, 02:22
This by far has to be one of the funniest arguements on warseer i have ever layed my eyes upon! seriously i cannot believe this arguement continues!
:evilgrin::evilgrin:

right think it this way DirtyCajun, spirit has brought up all heavily correct answers while you have brought up... how would mr t say. JIBBER JABBER!

so i say quit your cryin foooll cause the spririt is correct while you sir are not.

besides as a skaven player i can still do it anyways due to if you were correct he gets killing blow on shiz like that anyways:D

think it this way, true he is mighty acheron or what ever he is named :skull: but he is still able to get that pretty lil head of his lopped off in one go, the same way grimgor ironhide could or any basic hero on a mount or anything for that fact.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 02:32
killing blow affects any model with US 1 or 2, Archaon alone has US 1, mounted the whole unit may go to US 2, but archaon has US 1 anyway, so he can be killed, thats why he has such a good WS 3.

Only character I remember now that has US over 3 without being an ogre is skarsnik, that shares Wounds with Gobbla, they are inmune to killing blow.

If it was a matter of wounds and base size I would mount Grimgor in a 50x50 base, so he would be inmune to KB (take that you pesky DE assasins) but .... it cant be done.

What matters is the US of the character, not the mount. so almost all characters (except Ogres and a shagot whose name I dont remember, and that ancient Kroxigor character) and they can de KB by some especial rules.

Dont Cry, Archaon with a ws of 3 is almost unkillable, your oponent would need a lot of good luck, and you would need a loot of bad luck for that to happend

I think your slightly wrong here. The mount is counted.

What you are thinking of is the rule that if on a MONSTROUS mount or a CHARIOT, then the mount is ignored.

Of course in this instance it makes no difference, because the combined US of the model is 2, which is still legal for killing blow, but you do not ignore the mount in this case.

Also im not entirely sure why you keep saying WS3. (Wounds or ward save maybe?) But WS = Weapon Skill usually.

Shadowfax
24-06-2009, 02:35
Read through the rules and read the second warhammer FAQ.

Warmachines have no rule at all saying they are immune to killing blow.
A warmachine unit has a US equal to it's crew, but as per the second BRB faq, the warmachine itself has a US of 0.

Not "undefined" as some people have said in the past, but 0.

0 is US 2 or less, therefore warmachines can be destroyed by killing blow.

According to one of the BRB FAQs, the war machine itself has a unit strength of 0. So yes, technically you can KB it (though most people won't like it). Personally I think it's fitting - imagine a skilled marksman hitting a vulnerable and difficult-to-replace part of a war machine (such as snapping the ropes of a trebuchet).

Sweet.

My Waywatchers are gonna love this. :evilgrin:

Spirit
24-06-2009, 02:38
Sweet.

My Waywatchers are gonna love this. :evilgrin:

However as the waywatcher love goes up, the friendship points from your acquaintances will almost certainly go down. lol

PARTYCHICORITA
24-06-2009, 02:41
ignore me all you want but I've sighted pages and the rules and all you've done is argue symantics.

Actually the Killing blow rules on page 95 are very clear on models with US1 beeing vulnerable to KB. Even if archaon's mount had US2000000 the rider himself has a separate profile (like a lord on a dragon) and can be KB.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 02:44
Actually the Killing blow rules on page 95 are very clear on models with US1 beeing vulnerable to KB. Even if archaon's mount had US2000000 the rider himself has a separate profile (like a lord on a dragon) and can be KB.

Again, as i said above, that part of the killing blow rule only counts for chariots and monstrous mounts. So the mounts US will matter.

If its not a monstrous mount (i.e US1) then you must count it. If it was a US 20000 mount, then you could ignore it.

But it will rarely make a difference, because most characters (like archaon) are US1 anyway, and you can KB a US2 model.

PARTYCHICORITA
24-06-2009, 03:02
If its not a monstrous mount (i.e US1) then you must count it. If it was a US 20000 mount, then you could ignore it.


I see your point but fail to see what difference it makes; if the mount is US1 and the rider is US1 then the model is US2 and also vulnerable to KB as you just said again based on what page 95 reads.

Spirit
24-06-2009, 03:40
I see your point but fail to see what difference it makes; if the mount is US1 and the rider is US1 then the model is US2 and also vulnerable to KB as you just said again based on what page 95 reads.

What i was getting at is that, while your arguments conclusion is correct (archaon can suffer killing blow) your using the wrong reasoning to get to the conclusion (you ignore his mount and he himself is US1, thus you can killing blow him). Because the rules say you must include the mount.

I know it doesn't matter in this instance, because mount or not it only adds up to 2 max.