PDA

View Full Version : Help for High Elves to beat Vampire Counts?



Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 05:11
I want to make sure I have a few tactics up my sleeve when I finnaly get round to going to a torunament, I want TACTICS not list stuff akthough that is welcome to, but tactics on things like magic and what to cahrge and what to avoide.

Emeraldw
23-06-2009, 12:44
Don't be tarpited. Play more like wood elves, try to kill any unit you charge as fast as possible and remember it has to be wiped to a man. Snipe characters if you can in combat. Be on the look out for etheral units. They aren't terrifying if you are ready for them but if not, they can be a real pain.

Magic is their bread and butter natrually. Stop the Van Hel's Dance macrbe first. Though in your case you will strike first but more than anything it hold you in place and that is bad. If you play your cards right, he should have to spend his whole magic phase casting invocation just to keep his army alive. A guy I know took a null stone once and when a vampire suddenly realizes he has no magic it is a nasty feeling.

So in general, don't get bogged down in undead, snipe characters, be careful in their magic phase.

Amlesh
23-06-2009, 14:09
Pick on the small units with your magic and shooting. Dire Wolves and Bats are good targets, as are small detachments of Ghouls. Hit Varghulfs with anything flaming. If you have a Prince with a Star Lance, hit Blood Knights, Black Knights, and Black Coaches with him. High Strength attacks tear those guys up.

Snipe characters with anything you can (Lore of Metal is good). Most VC units are nothing without their characters.

Stop Invocations early in the game. Let them go through when VHDM will give a unit a crucial charge.

Tekomandor
23-06-2009, 14:22
Thanks for tht advice guys/girls (5% of the american stats yesterday)

GreenSpeed
23-06-2009, 14:54
Use drain magic, vc have tons of good low cast value spells, this could effectively cut their casting power in half.

If you are using a dragon or chariots combi charge everthing into one unit at a time this garuntees that he wont just raise the unit up in his turn

Johan Chill
23-06-2009, 15:33
I second Drain Magic. I can't describe how useful it is against Vamps.

Talash
23-06-2009, 15:41
Taking the staff of sorcery to give you a +2 to dispel is quite handy, and try to wipe out units on the charge by charging two units to his one - The last thing you want to happen is to get bogged down in long combats, as thats just playing to his advantage.

Generally speaking dont worry about his corpse carts casting the ASF spell, as 90% of his units have lower initiative than yours. Obvious point I know, but youd be surprised at how many HE players forget that and waste dice dispelling it.

EvC
23-06-2009, 16:37
You should put a lot of effort into removing units wholesale, but also engaging on as many fronts as you can. Keep piling on the pressure and gaps will appear in the lines.

siphon101
23-06-2009, 17:42
I've noticed a lot of High Elves use the tactic of "set up near the table edge, use great eagles to march block, make them crawl across the table to charge us, all while shooting them, then let them make the charge because we're ASF". It's a good tactic to use against a lot of infantry heavy armies but it is not that effective against VC. Odds are, even with drain magic, you can not shoot them down faster then they get up.

Strategies mentioned here are good. Play more on the offensive, focus fire on a single unit at a time. Even a unit left with ONE model can be made whole again. Destroy them one at a time.

Desert Rain
23-06-2009, 17:53
Use Lore of Light with atleast one mage. Once whem I played against them I fried a unit of black knights with the no 1 spell on my first turn. Lucky but still that lore is amazing against the vampires.

Remember that you have a +1 on all dispel rolls, I tend to forget it until around turn 3.

Cast Drain Magic, preferably 2 times since it will ruin his magic phase. Which in turn will ruin his army.

try avoiding prolonged combats, get in there and then get out as soon as possible.

Cats Laughing
23-06-2009, 21:08
Use Lore of Light with atleast one mage. Once whem I played against them I fried a unit of black knights with the no 1 spell on my first turn. Lucky but still that lore is amazing against the vampires.

Remember that you have a +1 on all dispel rolls, I tend to forget it until around turn 3.

Cast Drain Magic, preferably 2 times since it will ruin his magic phase. Which in turn will ruin his army.

try avoiding prolonged combats, get in there and then get out as soon as possible.

Seconded.

Lore of Light and High Magic will ruin his day.

2 of the Light Spells get stronger against him for no added casting cost, and if you get (or take through the Seerstaff) the ItP aura spell, you're golden.

Yes, he can dispell it during his magic phase if he failed to do so during your magic phase, however, he can only do this at the absolute end of his magic phase, which means it can only be dispelled after all of his charges (including magical) are done. Which means you've countered his biggest advantage (fear causing charges)...

Throw in Drain Magic (to make the above spell harder to dispell and mess with his casting) and you're golden.

Even one successful Drain Magic can totally destroy his magic phase (no more 1 dice IoN, and Vanhels would typically take 3 dice or maybe 4).

Last time I played a VC player with this magic combo, I totally destroyed his army and only lost 2 seaguard in the process... (Results are not typical, though :)

Penitent Engine
23-06-2009, 21:37
Speaking as a vampire player (I'm going to regret this...), aside from the tips below, just remember two things:
(1) Save some PD for bound spells. The Book of Arkhan, Corpse Cart and Hand of Dust in particular are dangerous. While you will still normally strike first using regular initiative, when the Black Knight unit with accompanying Vampire suddenly negates your ASF you will regret it!!
(2) Save some dice/dispel scrolls for Summon Undead Horde, possibly the most frustrating spell in the game when it rejuvenates the better part of a unit, or you suddenly find a block of 20 Zombies in front of your Spearmen.

Hope this helps!
Hope you never verse me...

Amlesh
24-06-2009, 00:49
Don't completely disregard the Corpse Cart. It makes Vampires go before most Elves, and you don't want that. Really. You don't. Even naked, a Vampire Hero is WS6 with 3 S5 attacks. Take that, T3 mortals.

Emeraldw
24-06-2009, 02:21
Don't completely disregard the Corpse Cart. It makes Vampires go before most Elves, and you don't want that. Really. You don't. Even naked, a Vampire Hero is WS6 with 3 S5 attacks. Take that, T3 mortals.

While that is horrible, you can do the same thing with a van hels and the corpse cart bound spell is only power level 3. Also, if it is something like sword masters, one hero vampire won't change much :P

Tekomandor
24-06-2009, 03:12
That info is golden, thanks whoever you are, and to Penitent Engine; I live in good old Australia so versing me propably won't happen :)
Again thanks.

EvC
24-06-2009, 11:21
It does amuse me to see people get to worked up over how effective Drain Magic is. Truth is, if a VC player is any good, then a single casting of Drain Magic will have little effect upon his magic phase. If he has a Master power (or the Skullstaff) then he can cast Invocation on 2 dice easily enough, and so have a very good chance of getting the spell though. It does mean he must put at least 3 dice into his Van Hels of course, but if it's an important Van Hels he'll be casting it on 3 dice anyway as it'll be too easy to dispel otherwise.

And if he's a very good player, then he'll have his army set up so that turn of bad magic doesn't stop him in the slightest.

Talash
24-06-2009, 11:55
It does amuse me to see people get to worked up over how effective Drain Magic is. Truth is, if a VC player is any good, then a single casting of Drain Magic will have little effect upon his magic phase. If he has a Master power (or the Skullstaff) then he can cast Invocation on 2 dice easily enough, and so have a very good chance of getting the spell though. It does mean he must put at least 3 dice into his Van Hels of course, but if it's an important Van Hels he'll be casting it on 3 dice anyway as it'll be too easy to dispel otherwise.

And if he's a very good player, then he'll have his army set up so that turn of bad magic doesn't stop him in the slightest.

True, though as a VC player I dont like the idea of having to use two dice to cast IoN. It effectively halves the amount of castings of IoN I can get off. And I dont think anyone really uses three dice to cast Van Hels unless theyve only got three dice left. Its cast on a 7+, which means if I have four dice ill cast it twice on two dice, rather than roll three at once.

VCs magic is horrible due to the low casting results needed, which can be attempted over and over again, rather than the high casting results obtained. I curse rather loudly when my opponent irresistably drains magic twice in a row in the same magic phase, and I dont run a particularly (For VCs) magic heavy list.

PeG
24-06-2009, 12:04
Focus is key to beating VC. Dont shoot/cast magic/charge anything that you cant wipe out in one turn unless you have a way of shutting down his magic.

Kill his characters whenever possible. Although killing the lord is usually not that easy already taking out one or two low level casters really hurts his magic phase which means that fewer models comes back to life again. Taking out his characters also prevents him from marching. Even a suicide attack with something slightly more expensive is usually worth it if you can kill a vampire.

Hurt his magic phase in any way you can, drain magic is good expecially if you can have more than one. Keep a scroll or two if he casts one of his high level spells that can really hurt T3 things.

EvC
24-06-2009, 13:59
Its cast on a 7+, which means if I have four dice ill cast it twice on two dice, rather than roll three at once.

And if you roll average, you'll fail one, and leave the opponent with another that goes off but can comfortably be dispelled on 3 dice. Even if you only decide to use 3 dice rather than 2 due to Drain Magic, your chances of getting the spell off are only very very marginally lower. And if your opponent has blown 3 of his own power dice in the previous magic phase to get into that position, then the VC player has gotten the better side of the deal IMO.


I curse rather loudly when my opponent irresistably drains magic twice in a row in the same magic phase, and I dont run a particularly (For VCs) magic heavy list.

I've had that happen before. All I could do was laugh, and then claim a moral victory as I still managed to cast a single invocation the next turn (From 7 power dice), store a dice and use the Book of Arkhan. So the enemy expended 6 power dice in order to stop me adding maybe 2D6 more Skeletons to my army. Big deal :D

Talash
24-06-2009, 15:40
And if you roll average, you'll fail one, and leave the opponent with another that goes off but can comfortably be dispelled on 3 dice. Even if you only decide to use 3 dice rather than 2 due to Drain Magic, your chances of getting the spell off are only very very marginally lower. And if your opponent has blown 3 of his own power dice in the previous magic phase to get into that position, then the VC player has gotten the better side of the deal IMO.

I've had that happen before. All I could do was laugh, and then claim a moral victory as I still managed to cast a single invocation the next turn (From 7 power dice), store a dice and use the Book of Arkhan. So the enemy expended 6 power dice in order to stop me adding maybe 2D6 more Skeletons to my army. Big deal :D

I can only assume you dont play VCs competatively. To have to roll 7+ to get IoN off, and 10+ to get VHs is a huge difference from the usual 4+ and 7+. Its basically forcing (roughly on average, as one dice averages a roll of 3.5) me to roll an extra dice for each spell I cast. That severely shortens my magic phase.

Now I can understand you might have a bone to pick with me due to your behaviour on other threads, but surely you can see that having to double the dice I need to use to cast is a bad thing for a magic heavy VC army. Your example is poor as well - A HE army should have enough dispel dice to stop that ONE casting of IoN and your BoA with ease. Examples are all well and good, but try to use ones that illustrate a point other than "I got lucky, so that tactic doesnt work".

EvC
24-06-2009, 16:06
I don't have a bone to pick with you, but if you're wrong, I'll correct you without malice. I play competitively, sure. Let's look at the numbers though. The example I gave wasn't particularly lucky, it just meant that rather than 7 single-dice castings, I did two castings with 3 dice each (Not one as you quite bizarrely assumed)- a High Elf army with 5DD can't really hope to stop both castings (Nor, to be honest, should they particularly care about it), so it was inevitable that barring a miscast, I would get one casting off. And then the Book of Arkhan was just the icing on the cake ;)

So, let's take a typical army, say, 10 power dice:
Normal phase, assume they go for 10 single-dice castings with +1 to cast:
6-7 succeed
3-4 fail
Of the 6-7 successes, 4 should be cast at around the level of a 4 or 5. That means 2-3 should be easily dispelled by the High Elf enemy with 5-6 dispel dice, leaving 4 successful castings. Super. Now let's say we have Drain Magic cast by a High Elf player, so the spell leaps up to a 7 to cast. So now, the VC player has to use 2 dice to cast. So he does it 5 times.
Around 3-4 times he should succeed. The actual casting value has not decreased however, so the High Elf player will need to roll 3 dice to be confident of dispelling. So he should be fairly confident that he will dispel two of the attempts.

Summary: VC player with 10 power dice gets off invocation 4 times without Drain Magic, reduced to 2 times after Drain Magic is cast. Yep, he's stopped around 7 Ghouls from being raised. Perhaps even 10 or 11 on a good day. Mighty. Bound items obviously not affected. So, because the "internet wisdom" has told the High Elf player that Drain Magic is so uber, he used 3 of his power dice to cast the spell in the first place. What else could those three dice have been used for? Well, he could have used them on a spell to kill maybe a half a dozen Ghouls. Or, more likely, to hit the targets that really matter- the things that can't be re-raised at D6 per casting.

Is Drain Magic a good thing? Well of course. Is it going to stop a determined Vampire Counts player (the kind who doesn't consider not being able to invo-spam on 1 dice to be the end of the world)? Hell no.

Go compare Van Hels Danse Macabre. Say you have casters that have access to 6 power dice to cast it. If it's an important casting, are you really going to try it on just 2 dice? Your opponent (Who I assume has some modicum of intelligence) will know to save his dispel dice if VHD is that important, so you're going to need as high a casting value as possible.

NB, if you're the kind of player who brings 15 power dice and does nothing but single-cast IoN every phase (until it's time to spam out VHD), then yes, Drain Magic will affect you more and probably halve your magic phase's output. I refuse to believe that this kind of army represents the typical VC player, however. Conversely, an army with fewer power dice will need to be casting on 2 dice anyway so it has less effect there.

Talash
24-06-2009, 16:20
I don't have a bone to pick with you, but if you're wrong, I'll correct you without malice. I play competitively, sure. Let's look at the numbers though. The example I gave wasn't particularly lucky, it just meant that rather than 7 single-dice castings, I did two castings with 3 dice each (Not one as you quite bizarrely assumed)- a High Elf army with 5DD can't really hope to stop both castings (Nor, to be honest, should they particularly care about it), so it was inevitable that barring a miscast, I would get one casting off. And then the Book of Arkhan was just the icing on the cake ;)

So, let's take a typical army, say, 10 power dice:
Normal phase, assume they go for 10 single-dice castings with +1 to cast:
6-7 succeed
3-4 fail
Of the 6-7 successes, 4 should be cast at around the level of a 4 or 5. That means 2-3 should be easily dispelled by the High Elf enemy with 5-6 dispel dice, leaving 4 successful castings. Super. Now let's say we have Drain Magic cast by a High Elf player, so the spell leaps up to a 7 to cast. So now, the VC player has to use 2 dice to cast. So he does it 5 times.
Around 3-4 times he should succeed. The actual casting value has not decreased however, so the High Elf player will need to roll 3 dice to be confident of dispelling. So he should be fairly confident that he will dispel two of the attempts.

Summary: VC player with 10 power dice gets off invocation 4 times without Drain Magic, reduced to 2 times after Drain Magic is cast. Yep, he's stopped around 7 Ghouls from being raised. Perhaps even 10 or 11 on a good day. Mighty. Bound items obviously not affected. So, because the "internet wisdom" has told the High Elf player that Drain Magic is so uber, he used 3 of his power dice to cast the spell in the first place. What else could those three dice have been used for? Well, he could have used them on a spell to kill maybe a half a dozen Ghouls. Or, more likely, to hit the targets that really matter- the things that can't be re-raised at D6 per casting.

Is Drain Magic a good thing? Well of course. Is it going to stop a determined Vampire Counts player (the kind who doesn't consider not being able to invo-spam on 1 dice to be the end of the world)? Hell no.

Go compare Van Hels Danse Macabre. Say you have casters that have access to 6 power dice to cast it. If it's an important casting, are you really going to try it on just 2 dice? Your opponent (Who I assume has some modicum of intelligence) will know to save his dispel dice if VHD is that important, so you're going to need as high a casting value as possible.

NB, if you're the kind of player who brings 15 power dice and does nothing but single-cast IoN every phase (until it's time to spam out VHD), then yes, Drain Magic will affect you more and probably halve your magic phase's output. I refuse to believe that this kind of army represents the typical VC player, however. Conversely, an army with fewer power dice will need to be casting on 2 dice anyway so it has less effect there.

Yes, hes stopped roughly 7 ghouls from being ressurected. Mighty.

Actually, hold on a moment... VC units that get charged by anything that can put up a fight dont do too well, and the unit failing to get another 7 ghouls back can mean a unit, including character, crumbles.

Im hardly saying that Drain Magic is the be-all-and-end-all, though what I am saying is that it would be a priority to cast it as a HE player against VCs, because stopping 7 grave guard/ghouls/skeletons getting back can make a hell of a big difference.

Im more than willing to concede your point has its merits, though I take affront that you think mine is incorrect. I would rather cast VHs three times using two dice per time than twice using three dice as a personal preference, especially to lure out scrolls before using the BoA. I usually play against a group that regularly (me included) attend tournaments, so to have four or more scrolls in a list is hardly surprising. I hope then you can see WHY I suggest to do it this way, though I agree that casting with three dice would also be a valid option.

EvC
24-06-2009, 16:32
But as I said, if rather than stopping the 7+ Ghouls from being added to the unit, what if he did a Fiery Blast on a Varghulf and took off two wounds, or a Thunderbolt to wipe out half a unit of Black Knights, or a Burning Gaze on a unit of Wraiths? Far more valuable than stopping a few extra core being raised. And yeah there will be times that Drain Magic will be invaluable (as the big fights break out- no-one wants to have to kill Grave Guard twice or three times over before they stay dead).

Csting VHD 3 times on 2 dice vs 2 times on 3 dice is a good question though. Competitive or not, the majority of the times I've tried to cast VHD on 2 dice I have failed: by now I know that if I want the spell to go off, I'm going to have to roll 3 dice. Remember, if the enemy has a surplus of scrolls, then casting it 3 times on 2 dice is only better than casting it 2 times on 3 dice, if you roll 7+ all three times. Otherwise, it's just 2 wasted power dice.

NB where do you play your tournaments? 4 dispel scrolls is lame, but I know a lot of Poles who would never take any less...

Talash
24-06-2009, 17:25
But as I said, if rather than stopping the 7+ Ghouls from being added to the unit, what if he did a Fiery Blast on a Varghulf and took off two wounds, or a Thunderbolt to wipe out half a unit of Black Knights, or a Burning Gaze on a unit of Wraiths? Far more valuable than stopping a few extra core being raised. And yeah there will be times that Drain Magic will be invaluable (as the big fights break out- no-one wants to have to kill Grave Guard twice or three times over before they stay dead).

Csting VHD 3 times on 2 dice vs 2 times on 3 dice is a good question though. Competitive or not, the majority of the times I've tried to cast VHD on 2 dice I have failed: by now I know that if I want the spell to go off, I'm going to have to roll 3 dice. Remember, if the enemy has a surplus of scrolls, then casting it 3 times on 2 dice is only better than casting it 2 times on 3 dice, if you roll 7+ all three times. Otherwise, it's just 2 wasted power dice.

NB where do you play your tournaments? 4 dispel scrolls is lame, but I know a lot of Poles who would never take any less...

I guess im just lucky with my rolling then, as I usually get two 7+ results out of three, and quite often get all three off. Luck is a large part of the game, unfortunately.

Usually I play local tournaments (Surrey area, south of London) though last year I attended the GT up at Warhammer World, qualified, but didnt do too well afterwards with my VCs - Won one, drew one and lost one. Respectable id like to think, though this year im taking my Lizardmen and hoping for even better.

Eulogy2
24-06-2009, 19:10
I guess im just lucky with my rolling then, as I usually get two 7+ results out of three, and quite often get all three off. Luck is a large part of the game, unfortunately.


im no math genius, but on two dice you should roll 7 or higher on average. so to me i think id also rather roll a 7+ on 2 twice 3 times, than a 7+ on 3 dice twice. but dice are random, so your both just guessing with opinions.

Amlesh
24-06-2009, 19:20
im no math genius, but on two dice you should roll 7 or higher on average.

Just barely. There's about a 40% chance of rolling less than a seven. http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/dice.html

For me, it all comes down in the end to when I need to cast three times and when I need to cast with three dice.

Eulogy2
24-06-2009, 19:26
Just barely. There's about a 40% chance of rolling less than a seven. http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/dice.html

For me, it all comes down in the end to when I need to cast three times and when I need to cast with three dice.

thats more or less my point. i would think its more situational than it is a matter of preference to how many dice youd use.

nice link btw.

ps. 58.34% chance of 7+ on 2 dice.

Nuada
24-06-2009, 21:26
Try to cover yourself against fear as well.

I've never played HE's, but currently painting up an army, so my advice might be rubbish. I'm in the same boat as you, i have two new enemy armies appearing soon that will both be vampire counts. Here's what i'm going to try out.......

I'm taking a unit of 10 white lions with the lion standard (immune to fear/terror) and a noble. Even if he beats me with ranks, flanking you etc i'll take a stubborn Ld test with a reroll.(BSB within 12) No auto-breaking. Hold them, and line up your flank charge (obviously this is an ideal situation, but an optional plan)

Phoenix guard are another good choice, with khoril as a leader(i'm not actually taking khoril myself, but he's good in this unit)

Red_Duke
24-06-2009, 21:37
Oh, couple of other things to watch out for: helm of commandment - this can be a real spanner in the works for HE, especially if some poxy zombie unit suddenly becomes WS7. Even worse of course if you have a stardragon and lord, which then gets bogged down.

Basically traditional HE combat lists dont work vs Vamps, as a magic heavy vamp army will raise into your flanks, and kill you through static CR. Once he gets a zombie unit into a flank, unless that unit gets support its either stuck there, or worse eventually going to run.

Ideally you need to be able to hit units turn 2 (or turn 1 if possible!) and start creaming them before they get any bigger. HE shooting ive generally found fairly ineffective, especially vs a horde army. However, spells like curse of arrow attraction, and everything focussing on one unit can work.

Magic lockdown is good, but the focus needs to be on taking down the general. The most effective way to do this btw is to crumble his unit, especially if you can keep the hell away from the lord himself, as even the magic ones tend to be fairly tough. Another option to consider is throwing as many dice as possible at vauls unmaking and trying to take down all those tasty vamp magical items - some of them can really make the difference, especially being able to nullify something like the helm, or the skull staff.

Drain magic is of course great, as are spells like flames of the phoenix. I look at it like this - if he's dispelling your RIP spells in his casting phase, he's not spam raising and dansing, which is all good :)

Lastly make sure as many units as humanly possible are immune to fear and terror. Nothing sucks for HE quite as bad as getting autobroken by fear causers. Oh, and spearmen are actually pretty good vs undead! 15 asf attacks are pretty sweet :)

Caine Mangakahia
24-06-2009, 23:59
Easy fix...Teclis

Death Disco
25-06-2009, 00:13
What you should take:

-+1 dispel staff; very helpful vs single-cast Invocations and the Book (which is the bane of...well, everyone)
-Lots of High Magic; Flames of the Phoenix is a truly horrible spell for VC to face, not to mention Drain Magic
-Phoenix Guard + Caradryan
-Swordmasters; given that VC have little shooting and HE are well-placed to stop their offensive magic, Vampires are faced with the uncomfortable proposition of having to actually fight the Cuisinart Elves. I've had rank-and-file Swordmasters kill numerous Vampires. With Shield of Saphery they can take a charge from Blood Knights and actually win.
-Bolt throwers; target Wolves and Bats. Use them to eliminate flanking/supporting units so you control who is fighting and when, rather than to actually score points
-Eagles; contrary to popular belief, VC units are march-capable far more often than not
-Spearmen, in blocks of 18, 21, 24 or even 28. They are relatively cheap, so biggish, wide blocks can help broaden your battleline, while large numbers of low strength hits are good for mowing down Skeletons.

What you shouldn't take

-Archers. Simply worthless-even more so than usual. Anything they can do, RBTs will do better
-White Lions without immunity to fear. Stubborn and their Cloaks are totally wasted, and their high strength is less useful here than the extra attacks of Spearmen or Swordmasters. Phoenix Guard are a better tarpit when fighting VC.
-Dragons. Even if he isn't a good player, your opponent will almost certainly have them fighting zombies all game.

ASF will help more here than against most armies. Form a solid line and do not break formation without good reason. It's almost always better to let him charge you. With Eagles to march block, RBTs to whittle down support units, and a strong magic defense to keep him from raising too many new Zombie units, HE are very well placed to cover their flanks from most VC shenanigans.

EvC
25-06-2009, 10:03
I guess im just lucky with my rolling then, as I usually get two 7+ results out of three, and quite often get all three off. Luck is a large part of the game, unfortunately.

Ah, but that's my point- so you roll three sets of dice, two of them manage the 7+, the third fails. If you'd rolled two sets of three dice, then you'd have almost certainly succeeded both times, leaving the enemy with two large casting values to dispel rather than two smaller ones if you were using two dice.

But yeah it's true it's a matter of preference, if you prefer three castings on 2 dice and it works for you, good stuff. And now back to the High Elf discussion :D

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 10:14
Any ideas on a more combat orientated vamp?

EvC
25-06-2009, 10:27
If your opponent is being particularly sneaky with any particular Vamps, like putting them right in front of Swordmasters, White Lions etc. then ask him what armour is on the Vampire. If he stammers or reluctantly "Light Armour" then the Vamp has the Nightshroud which will negate your ASF. And then chop your troops to little pieces.

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 10:38
Thanks EvC

isidril93
25-06-2009, 10:43
imo you should:

take lots of magic defense, 3 mages, +1 dispel staff, annulian crystal, tricksters pendant

a close combat character, prince with white sword, korhil, caradryan, eltharion, helps to take out his characters and give cr

swordmasters with itp banner, gem of courage
phoenix guard with the CC character
spearmen with lion standard

maybe 2 repeater bolt throwers to take out knights

the whole point is to shut down his magic phase by casting drain magic and the other items should ensure a good defense.
the units are (at least 3) immune to psycology/fear, so there should be no problem fighting the undead, phoenix guard need a character so that the get more CR, otherwise give them the battle banner
the swordmasters and spears have a high number of attacks so should take down zombies/skeletons easily
the repeater bolt throwers are there in case knights and vargulf...but they bboth need to target them as they need to wipe them out

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 10:59
Read the OP.
But thanks anyway, tactics not lists but I will keep that advice in mind.

Nuada
25-06-2009, 11:12
Regarding the vampire wearing the nightshroud

If he's in a unit of core undead, direct all your attacks against the troops. Then you won't lose your ASF. Bad news is he'll butcher alot of elite troops (depending on what he takes) Don't take a champion swordmaster (he can't challenge) Even without the SM champion if you go 7 wide, that's 14 attacks needing 3's and 2's.

It's a case of making the best out of a bad situation. You can't really afford to lose those elite elves, but at least you take alot of undead with you

Red_Duke
25-06-2009, 11:39
Another thing to watch out for is any vampires suspciously out towards the front of his army (such as if most are clustered in a skeleton block with a ghoul unit in front with 1 vamp) - he's likely got the talisman of the lycni and geared up for either character killing or murdering warmachines or small blocks of troops. Generally they have 2+ armour save and either the sword of striking with red fury (very nasty vs HE) or sword of might, immortal fury and +1 CR. Either is horrible, and is doubly so when in a combined charge with a varghulf.

Make sure you protect your mages btw! if in a unit keep next to a champ so someone else can take the fall, while hopefully the vamp will crumble from static res. Bats can be a real pain for elves, although if you have a mage in a unit of spearelves, you should be able to kill most before they get a chance to attack at least.

When at all possible as well, if you have knights do your damnest to get them into his flanks while supported from the front by a ranked unit. Nothing kills undead units surer than taking away their static res while hammering them with superior combat troops and your own static to boot.

Anaris
25-06-2009, 11:45
What you shouldn't take

-White Lions without immunity to fear. Stubborn and their Cloaks are totally wasted, and their high strength is less useful here than the extra attacks of Spearmen or Swordmasters. Phoenix Guard are a better tarpit when fighting VC.

I have to disagree there. As has been stated, the key to winning against VC's is removing the Vampires from the army. Hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's, these guys are pretty good against them. Use White Lion units to charge the units that have Vamps in them and if you avoid the Zombies tarpit units, you'll have a dead Vamp the turn you charge or the turn after.

Also, White Lion Chariots into the front of Vamp unit will ruin his day. Impact hits gives you combat res and then 6 WS5 Str5 Attacks gives you a dead Vamp (just make sure he doesn't have a Great Weapon).

Death Disco
25-06-2009, 13:57
I have to disagree there. As has been stated, the key to winning against VC's is removing the Vampires from the army. Hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's, these guys are pretty good against them. Use White Lion units to charge the units that have Vamps in them and if you avoid the Zombies tarpit units, you'll have a dead Vamp the turn you charge or the turn after.

Also, White Lion Chariots into the front of Vamp unit will ruin his day. Impact hits gives you combat res and then 6 WS5 Str5 Attacks gives you a dead Vamp (just make sure he doesn't have a Great Weapon).

Statistically the three Swordmasters who can fight one Vampire will cause two wounds, and the three White Lions 1.25. No matter how good the Vampire's save is, the Swordmasters are statistically more likely to kill it. Additionally, the two Elf units have the same Toughness and save, while a hero Vampire will hit the SM on 4s and the WL on 3s.

shadow hunter
25-06-2009, 14:02
Sorry to butt in - what is drain magic and how does it work?

I am starting vampires and my brother is starting high elves. I'd like to know what to expect (and also let him know about it) but my Brother lives miles away - so cant just look at his book.

Red_Duke
25-06-2009, 15:17
its the base HE spell cast on a 7+ that makes all spells till their next casting phase +3 to cast (i.e. invocation goes from a 4+ to cast to a 7+)

Bascially it stops Vamps 1 dice spamming, and therefore opens up the risk of miscasts, and makes the phase less effective for them. Worst for vamps imo is that the Danse becomes a 10+ to cast, meaning you'll need to throw a good 3 dice at it.

You can also cast it multiple times (although the second time would have the same cumulative effect as the opponents spells, so be on a 10+ to cast). If you get it off twice in a phase the Vamp player basically kisses goodbye to his next magic phase. 10+ for an invocation and 13+ for a danse? erm, cheers...

shadow hunter
25-06-2009, 15:32
Ok - so its culmlative? Everytime he gets the spell off - I'll be at a further +3 to required casting values? righto, thanks. From the description/name I was thinking it was simply a way of ending the magic phase entirely.

danny7865
25-06-2009, 21:29
Well Against VC I tend to take an archmage with the book of hoeth and at the end of the phase try and cast it twice.The big tactic against vampire counts is focus on one unit at a time. A vortex shard is also annoying for pressign advantages

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 22:53
Again, thanks everybody you all can have a virtual cookie

nickyfoo
26-06-2009, 22:59
Well u said no list stuff but take the dispel scroll that makes you forget spells and make the VL forget I and then the plus one dispel staff then you can one dice it real easy. Also as a lot of people have said drain magic then shoot and magic them from a distance the lack of raising he can do and the amount of killing you will do works out good for you. The he will have to move and I am sure V don't like to do that they like to sit back make big armies then move. I use a very magic heavy list witch is great to beat VC I have testis and 3 level 2 mages banner of sorcery dispel scroll that makes you forget spells can't remember the name LOL and tricksters pendent great item if you have it and use drain magic more than likely to get it of twice with teclis in ya list so 10 to bring stuff back LOL so he will have to use more dice now he chance of a miscast has pretty much doubled so you could take out his lord with it quit well. So to sum up sit back magic him and shoot him drain magic him also if you do take the scroll use it on his lord all gravy then hopefully by the time he gets to you you can just deck him in combat to.

Aranel
01-07-2009, 00:45
A great way to counter VC magic is a combination of Flames of the Pheonix and drain magic. The VC player will need to use four power dice to get rid of it without drain magic and maybe five with it. A somewhat cheesy tactic would be an archmage with the book of hoeth and a unit with the banner of sorcery. the mage can use between 7 and 9 dice so use as many as you can to cast DM and FotP with IF. A large amount of his power dice next turn will then be tied up with either dispelling that spell on a 14+ and having to cope with +3 on all his other casting attempts. BTW Teclis can do this very well but in friendly games it is IMO a cheesy step too far! Is also worth considering light magic for heavy cavalry, dragons and varghulfs. Burning gaze in particular is easy to cast and very effective.

Against combat armies, i would defin recommend Swordmasters. I usually deploy a unit of 18 (6x3) with the lion standard and Korhil. Protect the flanks of this unit and it can take the vast majority of VC combat builds. All i'll say is, watch out for regenerating blood knights and Dragons! anything is either slow enough to allow for you to hamper and soften up or is quick but doesnt pose much to a threat to either shooting, magic or in CC.

EvC
01-07-2009, 12:41
Casting Drain Magic and then Flames of the Phoenix seems like a lot of hard work, as you'll still need to throw enough dice at the spell to be sure to reach the casting value of 14 to cast it, even with the Book of Hoeth or Teclis. I don't think I'd mind my opponent's 800 point magic investment being put into one spell that is only really effective vs big units of infantry (which probably don't matter, or in the case of Grave Guard, are tough enough to survive the first two turns of the spell, considering they can be raised back into).

Aranel
01-07-2009, 22:27
It has more uses than simple destruction. As I said, it can tie down an extremely potent magic phase. High magic's biggest advantage is flexibility. If FofP isn't going to be useful, cast something else from that lore or even pick a different one at the start of the battle. This combination is a lot more than a one trick pony. Also, a fully tooled up archmage + BoS is only 410pts. If this can tie up the vast majority of a heavy magic phase (and maybe cause some damage as well) it seems to be a very good investment.

EvC
02-07-2009, 11:49
I don't understand. You're trying to explain why FotP and Drain Magic comboed are great to counter VC magic, but I just don't see how this would happen. More likely, you'd cast Drain Magic (If you don't get IF, then he'd probably try to dispel), and then Flames of the Phoenix. Okay, so your magic investment is being used to kill ~1/3 of a Skeleton unit, not bad, but not great either, as well as the +3 to casting cost. As I have demonstrated many many times to High Elf players that are convinced that Drain Magic alone will turn the game, the +3 is not the end of the world. A VC player has to roll high in the first place to get spells off vs High Elves with decent magic defence- yes it means fewer single-dice spamming, but I'm going to let you into a little secret here: when a VC player is single-dice spamming on units of Skeletons and Ghouls, it's not important. He's just doing that as a bonus for some extra troops or to draw out dispel dice from unwary players. The single-dice spamming is there to annoy, not to win the game.

SilentStalker
02-07-2009, 17:39
For the drain magic/FotP combo, it is easiest with an archmage with BoH and a regular mage using high magic with annulyan crystal (steal 1 PD to give you 1 DD). With the BoS, you have 3-5 pool dice, 2 for the little mage and 4 for the archmage. cast some spells to lure some dice (fury of khaine or shield), then use 4 dice to go for the FotP. The average roll will be 14, so should go off with good chance of IF, then use little mage to cast drain magic.

If all goes well, next magic phase he can try and stop FotP at 14 (so 4 or 5 dice wasted), while you have 6DD and drain magic.

Aranel
02-07-2009, 22:34
Keeping the size of the units low is the best chance of wiping them out. FofP will not only do this, but also tie up power dice that could be used to raise them back up and combined with DM, make fo less casting attempts. HE's do badly when bogged down in combat so if a unit wipes half of a VC in one turn he can't afford to let in regain to many models int he next. I'm not saying that this is the the definitive way with dealing with VC's. However, I have found it to be rather effective. If the combo doesn't suit a particular battlfield situation, you have a lot of other spells and lores to choose from! Good magical selection is the key for HE's. Assess whats on the other side of the table and then determine what spells will help you to beat it.

WhiteKnight
03-07-2009, 03:00
The vortex shard is always useful against vampires. Even though its one use only, thats one less turn of them raising more guys back. And that means combat will go much smoother for you. Also, swordmasters, dragon princes, chariots, and multiple attack units are your friends. Bolt Throwers are a must. I would say use an archmage with vortex shard, some fighty character, and another mage or two. Then max out on solid combat units like spearmen, swordmasters, dragon princes, and some chariots.

Lord Anathir
03-07-2009, 12:49
Ok this is how you play against vc. I'm seeing alot of random stuff that makes no sense whatsoever.

1) The Lores your lvl4 takes are dependant on his rare slots. fire for ghulfs, metal for blood keep, beasts for coaches, fire for wraiths. The lvl2 takes light for ghulfs, drain magic for bloodkeep, drain magic + fury of khaine for coaches, fire for wraiths.

2) Split your army in 2, deploy in the corners. Make him split his forces and focus on the half that has the least ressurection power due to range. Drain Magic will be dispelled and you need magic to deal with his rares anyways.

3) Ignore the blocks, focus on the support units first. Stall what you cant kill, camp in forests, circle buildings, etc. Contest all quarters, don't lose any units and win the game by the points you earned from whatever support units hes got.

4)If anything try not to engage the vampires, only the noob vampire players go full casting with all characters. The good players have 1 or 2 vamps strong in combat, and the best armies have the unkillable wight guy that has t6, 2+ save, 3w and ignores his first wound.

5) only engage his infantry if you have a very good change of wiping out the entire block in a single round, or in 3 rounds if you redirect neighbouring blocks.

Army Selection is up to you, but what I said can be done if you take a reasonably balanced army. If you want to be a noob and take a star dragon + battle banner dont come crying here when you cant dispel dickall and hes raising whatever you kill + more.

SilentStalker
03-07-2009, 14:31
yeah wouldn't bother with dragon, but the battle banner comes in REALLY usefull vs VC. nothing like beating them soundly in the flank with DP with the BSB, killing maybe 7-8 on the charge, adding on a banner, a flank, BSB and an extra d6, and possibly outnumbering too! If you can get these guys into the flank of a unit of say skeletons (25 strong?), should go something like this:
Princes with FC. 8 hits, 6-7 wounds from lances
BSB 2 hits, 1-2 wounds
Horses 4 hits, 1 unsaved wound
so you have about 8-10 wounds on average on the charge to the flank (no parry bonus), so you are up by say 9 right now.
HE CR = 1 (flank) + 1 (banner) + 1 (BSB) + 9 (wounds) + d6 (battle banner)
VC CR = 1 (banner) + 1 (outnumber)
HE win by 10 + d6 on average versus a 25 strong skele unit in flank

Highlander
07-07-2009, 19:59
Easy fix...Teclis

i agree with you, i Never loose for vampires when i used Teclis.
Use lore of light

The point is, try not separate your army, i use a small troop of phoenix guard to protect Telics.

I send my troops in front to combat, and the small troops go back. When they are engaged i try to get i position where Teclis can get the maximum number of Vc troops with Cleasing flare spell, and protec my on troops to with guardian light in case they loose the combat resolution.

Try to engage Caradryan to chalenge the vampire lord, this race really get in dificult if the lord is killed !

Dont forget to use the banner of sorcery too !

Caine Mangakahia
07-07-2009, 20:45
i agree with you, i Never loose for vampires when i used Teclis.
Use lore of light

The point is, try not separate your army, i use a small troop of phoenix guard to protect Telics.

I send my troops in front to combat, and the small troops go back. When they are engaged i try to get i position where Teclis can get the maximum number of Vc troops with Cleasing flare spell, and protec my on troops to with guardian light in case they loose the combat resolution.

Try to engage Caradryan to chalenge the vampire lord, this race really get in dificult if the lord is killed !

Dont forget to use the banner of sorcery too !

Actually high magic is worse when using VC against a Teclis build.
The TActic I usually come up against is:
Teclis bunkered in a spear unit burns all of my important magic items (Drakenhof/Blood Keep and Helm of Command being the main focus) with Vauls unmaking, usually backed by another wizard usinh magic missiles and the banner of sourcery.
Two eagles fly around march blocking and flee redirecting.
With no missile fire and the HE magic defense the VC will struggle just to get to grips with the HE.