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Wolfblaze
25-06-2009, 06:11
Hey guys I really need your help with this one.

I've got a game on the weekend against Beasts of Chaos that I know is going to be tough. I've made my list and mostly decided my tactics but it would be great if some veteran players could point out any flaws, or improvements that I could make : )

Its a 2k battle, usually minimum terrain which is both a blessing and a curse and I'm running:
AM - staff of solidity, ring of fury, great eagle
Caradryan
Dragon Mage - ring of corin, powerstone

2 x 20 spearelves - full command

15 phoenix guard (anvil) - full command, banner of sorcery
Lion Chariot

2 great eagles
RBT

My enemy usually takes Gorthor on a chariot, 3-4 superior units worth at least 250 points, some wargors and some chariots. He generally uses the Center Push strat with gorthor slap bang in the middle of his army cuz he's very scared of his Beasts low ld'ship without the general. Oh and did i mention the 3 meatwalls? so annoying :\ ...anyway lol

I plan to use the refused flank strat on the left side of the board, keep the anvil unit on the rightmost flank(closest to the center), use the eagles as fast options on the right side of hte board to rush up and marchblock the right side of his army as much as possible, therefore making him lopsided :P
Basically ima blast him for 2 or so turns until we meet, (I cant be bothered to explain my complicated use of power dice and the cost/benefit analysis therof but its safe to say I'll get a couple of spells through a turn :P) On the thrid turn or so, when he least xpects it, ill burn up his dispel dice with the powerstone then whip out the ring of corin to take out his generals gaylord armour (hopefully I'll hav even casted Vaul's unmaking with my Archmage before this as well, fingers crossed).

At this point I'll charge the eagles into the back of some annoying units just to tie them up, and basically engage. Caradryan is for the general, my theory is that once he's gone, my pathetic Dragon mage's redeeming feature, terror, and even the PG's fear will make a mockery of the beasts leadership and hopefully I'll be able to take his army apart peicemeal because of the lopsidedness [Note to self - Bestigors shouldn't be a problem because of FotP, ill try to tie up more dangerous units like Dragon Ogres with the PGs and eagles, after some magic blasting teh spearment combined with a chariot and a (weak)dragon should be hopefully more than a match for his herds / remaining superior units, also, the meatwall shouldn't be a problem because my mages fly, read: I can blast what I want]

I know the major flaw is, even after all this, his units could still beat mine, dragon is a big investment for not much comparative combat power, but I think now I'm just worrying about bad rolling.

What do you think? Is it at all a feasable plan? :D Sorry about the wall of text :S AND thank you very much for any advice!!! It would be greatly appreciated!

Tekomandor
25-06-2009, 11:02
Are you going to take the flaming sword option if you don't get a good spell on the dragon mage?

Voss
25-06-2009, 14:12
Having dealt with this matchup before, I have to say most of your problem is your list... you just don't have much, and you have very little that is actually good in a fight.

Phoenix guard are a passable anvil, but 15 is far too few for a real anvil unit. At the same time you completely lack anything resembling a hammer. A single white lion chariot isn't enough.

I would personally suggest that you ditch the dragon mage and the spear elves. They simply don't have enough offensive power to be worth taking, and they eat up a lot of points. Your offensive power is in your special slots, don't neglect them.

Wolfblaze
25-06-2009, 14:58
Yeah basically, if only I could take the silver wand too :P

Wolfblaze
25-06-2009, 15:13
Hey thanks for the advice!



Having dealt with this matchup before, I have to say most of your problem is your list... you just don't have much, and you have very little that is actually good in a fight.

Yes thats very true, so many of the points are tied up in the dragon and rare.


Phoenix guard are a passable anvil, but 15 is far too few for a real anvil unit. At the same time you completely lack anything resembling a hammer. A single white lion chariot isn't enough.

They [PG] come at a nice dosage of 305 points (banner inc) which is, i spose, average for a 2k point game anvil unit, but could you suggest a better anvil unit? that would b very helpful thanks. Also what would you suggest as a hammer instead of a chariot/dragon combo?


I would personally suggest that you ditch the dragon mage and the spear elves. They simply don't have enough offensive power to be worth taking, and they eat up a lot of points. Your offensive power is in your special slots, don't neglect them.

Hmmm, I see what you mean, but to me, spear elves are a mainstay, the alternatives are even more expensive blocks of seagard or spending 200 (220?) pts on archers, just to fill up the requs. I like this idea and thank you for pointing it out however against a T4 min army (cept for gors) i seriously doubt the killing power of 20 HE archers, i dont think they'd be cost effective and they dont really fit into a Refused flank strategy.

And the main reason for the dragon mage was terror, ability to see over his meatwall, dispel dice eating ability (free d6 with every spell) and a mage that actually has a chance of killing something in combat :P But could you give me any suggestions as to what to replace this option with, and how I could make up for it in my stratergy (e.g losing a good [expensive :\ ] mage and terror)

P.S i hope these quotes work i havnt used a forum in a while.

GenerationTerrorist
25-06-2009, 20:10
Phoenix Guard, IMHO, are great against Beasts because they cause Fear. Beasts Low ld line means he could have a problem if wanting to charge these units. Possibly giving you the chance to counter-charge.

I would also try to take another RBT, drop the spearmen from 2*20 down to 1 unit of 15 (with Ellyrian banner, maybe), take 10 archers and a small unit of Ellyrian Reavers with bows and a musician for baiting (if he is running Khorne marked units) or hassling smaller enemy units on your left flank. They are my favoute HE unit, so therefore my judgement might be clouded a bit by that one!

I used to run an AM on Eagle, and he was devastating against most armies. Can't remember the name of it though, but would it not be better to give your AM the staff that lets him choose his spells?

Harwammer
25-06-2009, 20:14
If you can stall the chariots and take out the dragon ogres at range I think your spearmen can do the rest of the work against his army.

Without impact hits or dragon ogres to weather ASF you should have superior CR and superior melee ability to every BoC unit.

If you can split his army your ASF, ranked up spears should tear apart his lightly armoured, low CR troops. Your phoenix guard should be able to handle bestigors okay.

Use your chariot to make herds rank up narrow/angled so they don't get rank bonus and present a flank to other chargers.

I find high elves tend to stomp BoC armies except nurgle minotaurs.

Wolfblaze
26-06-2009, 16:13
Hey guys this is really helpful, I don't usually get the chance to talk tactics about my own army with people :\

@ Generation - I love using fast cav too and the Ellyrians are great, i guess i could knock off some points somewhere :P Also I might be biased about getting the 20 point staff becuase in the last 4 games I've played, any archmage i may hav taken has miscast at least twice in each game!
Once I miscast 4 times haha, he was magic lvl 2 and dead, and the enemy didnt even get near him by the end of the battle, wtf! I roll too many ones i swear lol. I kno its normal to miscast so now I like taking this staff to make sure double ones dont give aids, hepatitis and herpes to my magic phase, all on the first turn like last game...

anyway lol

@Harwammer, I like your assessment and its pretty much my assessment too im just worried about not having enough models, I was actually considering leaving the RBT (he's so scared of them by now that he actually desnt take any large targets lol) and getting two more eagles to help out with the numbers by distracting, feinting, baiting, and generally making his numbers count for less :P

What do you think of this Idea?

BTW Any ideas on a better hammer unit than the dragon mage and the chariot ( i like the double fear and terror aspect :P Can i make him take the fear test first by charging with the chariot first? As aposed to making him take the terror first, and if he passes the fear does nothing?) And also 2/3 people think the PG will do well so im happy with that, games in two days now hopefully al this strategising will pay off! Fanks people

nickyfoo
26-06-2009, 22:33
Well I think SM are a defo, they are real good and agaist BOC with no range against you they only way they really die. Just make sure the chariot don't charge you impact hits kill HE real good but other than that SM will be a great hammer for you well they do it for me best unit in the whole game other that chosen ,if they get a 3+ ward. The spearmen don't take the in 20 18 or 24 are good numbers. As to you doubting archers killing ability well they are a lot better than you think they are always one of my best unnits.Now dragon mage well its a good unit and terror is real good and also as long as you move him well they are a good points denial and have some good killing ability also you can use them quit well last turn for getting table quarters.RBT are real good I would keep them. As to PG I have only recently started to use them and they are real good give these banner of sorcery and you will be away. You will have a good magic phase a good shooting phase and a good combat phase now all that leaves you to do is not miscast LOL:D

Spirit
26-06-2009, 22:39
Best advice vs beasts you can have.

Chariots.

Charging a beast herd with chariots will force it to rank up to 4 models wide, thus leaving them with no ranks whatsoever. This will mean your chariot will almost always kill an entire herd on its own. Or at the very least create a 16" null zone for all herds.

Strangely enough this is the way GW wanted to errata the stupid rule, rather than allowing them to rank to 5 models minimum.

The same would work with eagles, but they probably wont win the combat.

Also, i havent read the thread, so apologies if this is already here.

Wolfblaze
27-06-2009, 11:26
Do they really have to rank up 4 wide? LOL, thats rtarded, rules exploitation FTW

I should take my old list (as many boltthrowers as possible) and charge the chariot out to get rid of his meatshield.

Nah I wont but if it gets tight I may be forced to throw down this new-found gautnlet, especially since he takes units of 20+ they'll be like 6 models long trains of guys that will just get in his way.

Btw i had the idea of throwing in a couple of units of 7 Swordmasters and Lions, to both fill out numbers ( he wont hav 2 units to each of mine) and as some higher str hitting power, I hate rolling for 5+'s

If this is a good idea to flesh out my list more what could I save on to make up for it? I'm thinking the RTB atm. Any ideas?

Spirit
28-06-2009, 00:22
Do they really have to rank up 4 wide? LOL, thats rtarded, rules exploitation FTW



Its in the army book (i think because the rules at the time were 4 minimum to a rank)

Because it is in the army book in black and white, GW (being consistant as ever) dont want to change it so it makes sense. This was because they said they wanted to go with rules as written regardless (*cough* mark of nurgle)

Wolfblaze
30-06-2009, 11:48
lol I see, funny how my enemy ended up taking 3 units of nurgle minataurs...

But it all went according to plan surprisingly, I think he underestimated always strikes first and my eagles mostly. I was able to tie up his powerful units quite easilly, and once the archmage got behind his lines and in front of my PG with Korhil, everything that fled (And it did because he also took morghur) was instantly killed. His 10 spawn were annoying however most of them were only 1-2 wounds and my spearmen could clean them up with multiple attacks. I think the spawn got in his way alot also, he almost flanked the PG but the ring of fury saved the day.

The dragon and chariot combo works extremely well, that many str 5 hits as well as impact hits make short work of most units. Also both my opponents failed to see the threat of flaming sword and ddidnt bother to dispel, thier mistake. Result: Crushing victory, he gave up after the 4th turn. His strat was interesting tho, pretty much everything in his army caused fear and he surrounded morghur with warhounds, which created like 2-3 chaos spawn a turn. Luckily deploying my bolt thrower on the other side of hte field to where i planned to deploy made him place nearly half his army on that side and all spread out :P

Next battle was against orcsies with some hefty magic, they were in combat by turn 1 was like wth, but using pretty much the same strat worked quite well, the spears, PG, chariot and dragon could handle a unit of orcs, a small black orcs unit, a giant and some boarboys without any of them fleeing or even losing a second rank. Albiet I bolt throwered the side of the boarboys, FotP on the orc unit, some nice fireballs / fury of kaine. He had 3 units still unengaged and chasing eagles.

Things I should definitely improve - Need to take spears in units of 24, extra 3 attacks and its harder to take a static rank off i realised, would hav been annoying for my opponent.
-dragon mage is useless if he gets a crappy spell like conflagration.
-need to take some kind of banners on my spears, would really help to have the lion standard (they almost fled from fear) and the war banner in there, its just more -ld for your enemy really.

I dont know where to take the points from however, as its already extrememly balanced :P

Anyway I'm rambling, to sum up, I won, yay! hammer and anvil is gud!

Lordy
30-06-2009, 19:48
High Elves vs Beasts is probably the easiest match up for High Elves to play.

Beasts don't have a single ranged attack (apart from throwing axes 6" range), they have little to no armour after modifiers and their magic lores are far weaker than High Magic.

Gorthor would be pretty much his only chance to do some damage.

At least you gave him a chance though taking a Dragon Mage and PG's :)