PDA

View Full Version : Monster and Handler Denying Rank Bonus



TroyJPerez
26-06-2009, 11:19
Does a monster and handler team deny rank bonus if the entire unit is unit strength 5 or higher or just if the monster in the hander team is unit strength 5 or higher. The rulebook seems to say that the Monsters unit strength is the only one that matters but that doesn't seem to make much sense that the others wouldn't count. Any answers?

nosferatu1001
26-06-2009, 12:36
The monsters unit strength is the only thing that matters. There arent that many US4 monsters out there though, are there?

Falkman
26-06-2009, 12:50
Nope, but Sallies and Razors are Monster & handler units, and they have US3.

Necromancy Black
26-06-2009, 13:58
Nope, but Sallies and Razors are Monster & handler units, and they have US3.

*sigh*

No. No they are not. They are similar in some ways but very different in others. They are, and have always been, a mixed unit of skirmishers.

HellRaid
26-06-2009, 14:07
Does a monster and handler team deny rank bonus if the entire unit is unit strength 5 or higher or just if the monster in the hander team is unit strength 5 or higher. The rulebook seems to say that the Monsters unit strength is the only one that matters but that doesn't seem to make much sense that the others wouldn't count. Any answers?

The monster's unit strength is all that matters - I believe this is because technically the unit is a unit of skirmishers (albeit with slightly different rules) so couldn't normally negate ranks anyway.

Necromancy Black
26-06-2009, 14:33
The monster's unit strength is all that matters - I believe this is because technically the unit is a unit of skirmishers (albeit with slightly different rules) so couldn't normally negate ranks anyway.

Why believe when you can just rad the rules and see what they say? :p

Falkman
26-06-2009, 15:42
*sigh*

No. No they are not. They are similar in some ways but very different in others. They are, and have always been, a mixed unit of skirmishers.

Sorry then, was told by a Lizardmen player friend that they nowadays were Monsters and handlers.

Granitearm
26-06-2009, 15:48
Sorry then, was told by a Lizardmen player friend that they nowadays were Monsters and handlers.

I was told this by a player as well. Could someone give a page number and/or layout the logic against it?

nosferatu1001
26-06-2009, 15:59
It states they are not a monster and handler unit, being the main reason against it - I'm a Lizards player...

They are a mixed unit of skirmishers that followers SOME of the rules for monster and handler.

chivalrous
26-06-2009, 16:36
I can't speak for Lizardmen units, they have their own rules, however for actual monster and handler units the rule can be found on page 67.


The monster's unit strength is all that matters - I believe this is because technically the unit is a unit of skirmishers (albeit with slightly different rules) so couldn't normally negate ranks anyway.

The unit only counts as skirmishing for the purpose of movement, not for anything else.


The monsters unit strength is the only thing that matters. There arent that many US4 monsters out there though, are there?

The only times the handlers are ignored are when charging or being charged which occur in the movement phase, not in the combat phase.
There is no mention of handlers being ignored during combat or that their contribution to unit strength is ignored.

Now, I am on the back foot slightly because there is a paragraph which states "The monster is also capable of negating the rank bonus of an enemy unit it has charged to the flank/rear if its unit strength is high enough"
which implies, but doesn't directly mean, that handlers are never counted.

Neither of the rulebook FAQ's elaborate on this sadly.
But the second FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009) does state that Salamanders aren't Monster and handler units.

nosferatu1001
26-06-2009, 17:16
There are 2 different elements there:

1) gaining +1/+2 for being US5 - this is the combined unit strength of the unit doing this
2) if the monster itself is US5+ it then also breaks ranks, in the same way as if it had charged by itself.

EvC
26-06-2009, 17:50
Correct! It's all in the rulebook. Monster and Handler rules are not clear in a lot of ways, but where they make such clear statements as the one italicized by chivalrous, the rules are there and shouldn't be confused by guesswork :)

Necromancy Black
26-06-2009, 23:59
I just love the fact they can ignore terrain when moving but not when charging :p

nosferatu1001
27-06-2009, 20:19
Obviously the handlers are carefully guiding the hydra through, removing awkward branches out the way ;)

TheDarkDaff
29-06-2009, 09:55
Now, I am on the back foot slightly because there is a paragraph which states "The monster is also capable of negating the rank bonus of an enemy unit it has charged to the flank/rear if its unit strength is high enough"
which implies, but doesn't directly mean, that handlers are never counted.

It actually does discount the Handlers as it starts with "the monster is ..." rather than "the monster and handlers can ..." in the quote you provided.

chivalrous
29-06-2009, 10:40
It actually does discount the Handlers

Oh, I don't disagree entirely, that's why I pointed it out, but it's a strange way to write it.

It would be less ambiguous if it were written
"The monster and handler unit is an exception to the normal rule where the combined Unit Strength counts towards the number of models required to negate an opponents rank bonus, instead only the monster's Unit Strength is used"

Or alternatively
"In addition the unit also counts as a skirmishing unit for the purpose of negating ranks for a flank/rear charge in close combat, however if the monster alone has a Unit Strength high enough to negate ranks, it will do so."

Gazak Blacktoof
29-06-2009, 11:00
It's always seemed clear to me that it's the monster being discussed in that particular paragraph as it is the only entity referenced. There are obviously other ways to formulate the sentence or convey the same meaning.

chivalrous
29-06-2009, 11:24
It's always seemed clear to me that it's the monster being discussed in that particular paragraph as it is the only entity referenced. There are obviously other ways to formulate the sentence or convey the same meaning.

But what it doesn't say anywhere are that the handlers are excluded from the normal rules.

The normal rule for negating ranks takes into account sum total of each model in the unit and stipulates that it must be equal to or greater than 5, the only exception is for skirmishing units.

The rules for Monsters and Handlers state that M&H units only count as skirmishers for the purpose of movement.

At no point yet have the handlers been excluded from the normal and regular rules for negating rank bonus.

Even if it said "Only the monster on its own is capable of negating the rank bonus of an enemy unit it has charged to the flank/rear if its unit strength is high enough"

It just needs to say something that excludes the handlers from the normal rule, so I don't have the opportunity to waffle on like this:angel:

Gazak Blacktoof
29-06-2009, 11:43
I see what you mean, your version is certainly clearer then.

chivalrous
29-06-2009, 11:54
Going off on a tangent, I wonder when this is ever going to be relevant? The only Monster and handler unit I'm aware of is the War Hydra and the Hydra alone is US5, so the whole discussion's moot.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-06-2009, 12:02
Well that's not the point is it, you're still right ;).

Draconian77
29-06-2009, 13:06
I just love the fact they can ignore terrain when moving but not when charging :p


This has caused so much confusion around here I'm starting to think it would have been easier if the Hydra didn't ignore terrain! (I say this from a Hydra loving, Druchii players point of view.)

EvC
29-06-2009, 17:11
Well that's not the point is it, you're still right ;).

No he isn't, the Hellcannon is another :) Although it is also US5...

chivalrous
29-06-2009, 17:22
No he isn't, the Hellcannon is another :) Although it is also US5...

I thought the Hellcannon counted as a War machine?

Gazak Blacktoof
29-06-2009, 17:26
No he isn't, the Hellcannon is another :) Although it is also US5...

So its still irrelevant which is the point he was making.

EvC
29-06-2009, 18:04
I thought the Hellcannon counted as a War machine?

Well, you didn't read the Warriors of Chaos book then. Easily remedied.