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Reinnon
27-06-2009, 16:50
Howdy.

I've been having a fairly successful year when it comes to fantasy with this vampire army. It has a fairly impressive win record and i'm happy overall with how it works. But, i can't help but think it could become a bit more streamlined.

The basic focus of it is ghouls with ghoulkin and inv spam from a bunker with a vampire lord - unimaginative i know with the inv spam, but it just sort of became that way with playtesting.

I want to swap around a few upgrades on the characters, but this is proving to be a bit of an issue. It might be best if i show you the list so you can see what my problem is.

Lords

Lady Francesca von Freising (Vampire Lord): Level Three Upgrade (50 points), Master of the Black Arts (50 Points), Ghoul kin (25 Points), Summon Ghouls (15 Points), Flayed Hauberk (25 Points), Skull Staff (65 Points), Biting Blade (5 Points)
Total: 440

Heroes

Peter “The Apothecary” (Necromancer): Invocation of Nehek, Vanhel’s Danse Macabre (15 Points), Book of Arkham (35 Points)
Total: 105
Corpse Cart: Balefire (25 Points)
Total: 100
Samuel “The Mad” (Necromancer): Invocation of Nehek, Vanhel’s Danse Macabre (15 Points), Dispel Scroll (25 Points), Dispel Scroll (25 Points)
Total: 120
Corpse Cart: Balefire (25 Points)
Total: 100
Varzuk Von Freising “Scourge of the North” (Vampire): Dread Knight (25 Points), Walking Death (25 Points), Battle Standard Bearer (25 Points), Helm of Commandment (35 Points), Black Periapt (15 Points)
Total: 220

Core

Peasant Militia (20 Ghouls): Ghast (8 Points)
Total: 168
Peasant Militia (20 Ghouls): Ghast (8 Points)
Total: 168
Peasant Militia (15 Ghouls): Ghast (8 Points)
Total: 128
Peasant Militia (15 Ghouls): Ghast (8 Points)
Total: 128
Peasant Militia (14 Ghouls): Ghast (8 Points)
Total: 120

Rare

Victor Von Freising “The Beast” (Varghulf)
Total: 175
“The Forgotten” (5 Cairn Wraiths): Otto von Freising “The Cursed” (Banshee - 25 Points)
Total: 275

The problem is how the army works. The army works by ghoulkin moving up the board and hopefully getting a turn 2 charge with ghouls and a turn 1 charge with zombies. Thus one of the vampire power slots is gone, and the two corpse carts need to have necromancers to make them worthwhile.

The BSB needs defense, as does the vampire lord - thus the BSB uses a vampire power slot while the lord uses a magic item slot.

The BSB needs to be able to make up for the lack of command models in ghoul units, so walking death is incredibly useful.

The Vampire lord needs to be able to do magic, so all the vampire powers go into that - skull staff makes this even better as she is my main caster.

The Helm of commandment is obscene, but the only place it can go is the BSB.

The problem: WS7 on the helm is just miles better then WS6, and i would like the helm on the vampire lord instead. However, this creates a situation where it suddenly feels like one of those word games that you do in maths classes.

I need to sacrifice one of several things to allow me to put the helm on the vampire lord:

1) Walking death: this will allow me to move the ghoulkin to the BSB, which in turn allows me to use dread knight to give the vampire lord protection.

2) Ghoulkin - not gonna happen

3) A necromancer - to replace with a vampire who can have ghoulkin. But corpse carts are so useful i'm loathe to remove one

4) Skull staff - the most reasonable suggestion but still painful, this staff has been very good to me.

5) Defense from the vampire lord: with a bunker this seems the most obvious (the vampire should never see combat), but it is by far the most risky suggestion.

This is proving to be a very painful decision for me. The helm is very powerful, but i'm just not sure what to take out to allow me to do the combo better. This army works very well as it currently stands.

Any and all advice would be grand

WodenMHC
28-06-2009, 00:40
Alright, a couple thoughts for you:

1) You can take a Corpse Cart without a Necromancer, which will allow you to either fit a Vampire with Ghoulkin or Summon Ghouls into the list while keeping the Cart. This of course will cost slightly more points, but not excessively so.

2) There are some magic item points that could either be shifted around or removed altogether without changing how the army plays that much (also, I like the list. It's quite different from my VC list, but looks pretty interesting). For instance, without the Black Periapt, you should have 2+2+1+1+1=7 dispel dice, and 2 scrolls. I'd probably drop a scroll, and drop the Periapt. That will save you 40pts. As you mentioned, the Skull Staff is fun and useful, but if you're skimming, it's not that necessary. Also, people should remember (not saying you don't) that regardless of casting modifiers (the +1 from the Skull Staff, as well as the +1 from Summon Ghouls) you can't ever cast a spell on lower than a 3 on a die, so if you're casting Invocation with the Lord with one die you're getting a +2 but you can't get it on the roll of a 2, so the normal +1 from the Summon Ghouls will give you what you need when you roll the minimum of 3 (if all that makes sense).

3) Yes, it is much more effective for the Helm to be on WS7. If that's the case, you don't want your Lord in combat. Therefore, you can afford to probably drop the Flayed Hauberk and save those points. With the Periapt, Scroll, Skull Staff, and Flayed Hauberk gone that will shave 130pts with which you can do as you like.

4) If you're plan is to plump up those Ghoul units, I'd think it would be easier if there was another Vampire with Summon Ghouls if you can get that in there. That will make the spell casting of your army a bit less obvious, and therefore harder to predict and dispel.

Hope that helped -

Thanks for your time!

Amlesh
28-06-2009, 01:14
Just so you know, you listed the Helm of Commandment as 35 points. It's 30, so your total is still correct.

Reinnon
28-06-2009, 10:23
Alright, a couple thoughts for you:

1) You can take a Corpse Cart without a Necromancer, which will allow you to either fit a Vampire with Ghoulkin or Summon Ghouls into the list while keeping the Cart. This of course will cost slightly more points, but not excessively so.

2) There are some magic item points that could either be shifted around or removed altogether without changing how the army plays that much (also, I like the list. It's quite different from my VC list, but looks pretty interesting). For instance, without the Black Periapt, you should have 2+2+1+1+1=7 dispel dice, and 2 scrolls. I'd probably drop a scroll, and drop the Periapt. That will save you 40pts. As you mentioned, the Skull Staff is fun and useful, but if you're skimming, it's not that necessary. Also, people should remember (not saying you don't) that regardless of casting modifiers (the +1 from the Skull Staff, as well as the +1 from Summon Ghouls) you can't ever cast a spell on lower than a 3 on a die, so if you're casting Invocation with the Lord with one die you're getting a +2 but you can't get it on the roll of a 2, so the normal +1 from the Summon Ghouls will give you what you need when you roll the minimum of 3 (if all that makes sense).

3) Yes, it is much more effective for the Helm to be on WS7. If that's the case, you don't want your Lord in combat. Therefore, you can afford to probably drop the Flayed Hauberk and save those points. With the Periapt, Scroll, Skull Staff, and Flayed Hauberk gone that will shave 130pts with which you can do as you like.

4) If you're plan is to plump up those Ghoul units, I'd think it would be easier if there was another Vampire with Summon Ghouls if you can get that in there. That will make the spell casting of your army a bit less obvious, and therefore harder to predict and dispel.

Hope that helped -

Thanks for your time!

A corpse cart without the necromancer might as well not be taken in a ghoulkin based army, and the things are very useful in this army. The problem is: they will just get left behind by everything, the ghouls will be 8 inches away due to ghoulkin and the varghulf and wraiths will just out pace it - and the ghouls really use ASF to gain the advantage in combat, which without the more heavy hitting elements of the vampire book is needed.

thanks for the advice though, worth a thought.