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bob_the_small
27-06-2009, 23:56
Right, I would like to know what you guys think is the correct level of power in 40k, I have heard that it starts with CSM, but haven' heard much else due to conflicting opinions.

Cheers in advance

Bob

Maidel
27-06-2009, 23:58
Id say most people would tell you it starts with Orks...

xerxeshavelock
28-06-2009, 00:00
Sorry, don't understand question. What are we talking, volts? Politics?

stainawarjar
28-06-2009, 00:03
First of all, you have to remember that Hulk is the strongest there is.

Raven1
28-06-2009, 00:04
First of all, you have to remember that Hulk is the strongest there is.

No, there is only Chuck Norris

The_Outsider
28-06-2009, 00:04
Depends who you ask, many people will says orks, chaos and eldar are top dogs, others will say witch hunters and DE are number one (well, one and two).

You know you're onto something when so many armies can be the best.

zoggin-eck
28-06-2009, 00:04
Why do we go through this same question every day? It's a game people!

You aren't going to get a definitive answer so why not try out a few armies yourself?

Askari
28-06-2009, 00:28
The list you'll come up with will probably be;

Orks
Chaos Lash/Oblit/Plague spam
Eldar
Everything not listed
<<<huge gulf>>>
Chaos Thousand Sons/Spawn/Dreadnought spam
Grey Knights

Imperius
28-06-2009, 03:14
chuck norris

chaos0xomega
28-06-2009, 03:55
Id say that Tau are at the bottom....

squeekenator
28-06-2009, 04:30
Really? Tau may not be very competitive, but the bottom? No way. I'd put them above Necrons, Daemonhunters and balanced Tyanids. You have what is quite possibly the best tank in the game and a lot of firepower combined with decent mobility. No, they are not at the bottom by any stretch of the imagination.

beanski102
28-06-2009, 05:36
i play tau and i would definatly rank them towards the middle

chaos0xomega
28-06-2009, 05:44
I disagree. From my own experiences, I would say necrons are at least one rung up from Tau. Tau have what is easily the worst basic troops choice in the game(if not the worst, than definitely the most broken...), their fast attack choices are mediocre at best, and the Hammerhead is actually not that great of a tank (or maybe my dice are just that bad, all what I know is that in the past 5 or 6 games, they haven't survived past turn 3, and out of all the shots I fired out of those damned railcannons, even with markerlight support, I hit maybe 2 or 3 times, doing absolutely nil with them). No, the good HS choice in the Tau army is in fact the broadside battlesuit.

slingersam
28-06-2009, 09:30
I think IG is going to be like daemons in Fantasy then we get Orks = vamp counts. For the people that don't play fantasy it goes like this in rank.

Daemons










Vamp Counts

Dark Elves
Everyone else
Bottom Tier.

Thats the way I'm am starting to see 40k go in power creeping.

Stezerok
28-06-2009, 09:37
I dunno, but I do think it is over 9000...

Good Hunting,
-Stezerok

Radium
28-06-2009, 09:38
Thats the way I'm am starting to see 40k go in power creeping.

IG aren't nearly as good as Daemon in fantasy. IG got a well deserved boost, and are now a good army, but still a long way from being the best. That crown still sits on a greenskin's head.

Top armies would include Chaos, Orks, DE, Eldar and WH. I think.

eltanko
28-06-2009, 09:45
hmm its a tough one, everyone is going to say different things because they have favourites, the reason they collect them! no-one would purpously spend all that time/effort buying/painting and gaming with an army that they think are going to get obliterated!

but for me

Top:
CSM/SM

Bottom:
Tau/Necron

but thats mainly just from what i have seen on here, i dont game myself yet, so i have no actual gameplay to base this one!

ElTanko

squeekenator
28-06-2009, 09:59
no-one would purpously spend all that time/effort buying/painting and gaming with an army that they think are going to get obliterated!

You seem to be a little bit too optimistic about human nature. People will often declare their army to be underpowered, because it makes them feel that they win because they are awesome, and their tactical genius alone allowed them to overcome the mighty Grey Knights with their inferior force of Nob Bikerz.

pringles978
28-06-2009, 10:02
You seem to be a little bit too optimistic about human nature. People will often declare their army to be underpowered, because it makes them feel that they win because they are awesome, and their tactical genius alone allowed them to overcome the mighty Grey Knights with their inferior force of Nob Bikerz.

oh, how i lolled. youve played at my local gw then? :p

Shadowphrakt
28-06-2009, 10:18
I really wouldn't say that orks are top. I've never been beaten by orks, and I play SM. I do however hate unbalanced Nids. Or Eldar Jetbike armies. I think they come out top.

eltanko
28-06-2009, 10:19
You seem to be a little bit too optimistic about human nature. People will often declare their army to be underpowered, because it makes them feel that they win because they are awesome, and their tactical genius alone allowed them to overcome the mighty Grey Knights with their inferior force of Nob Bikerz.

My mistake, i forgot to take the Human Ego into consideration!
fool me once, shame on me!

ElTanko

Askari
28-06-2009, 13:04
hmm its a tough one, everyone is going to say different things because they have favourites, the reason they collect them! no-one would purpously spend all that time/effort buying/painting and gaming with an army that they think are going to get obliterated!


You think so?

My Thousand Sons army routinely is obliterated, won't stop me collecting them because they look awesome!

stonehorse
28-06-2009, 17:48
It all depends on what people encounter, however we can try to recreate the tier lists in Warhammer based on each army using their most powerful build. With that in mid I would think something like this:

Chaos Space Marines.
Orks.
Imperial Guard.
Black Templars.
Daemons.
Dark Angels.
Dark Eldar.
Eldar.
Blood Angels.
Space Wolves.
Witch Hunters.
Space Marines.
Tyranids.
Daemon Hunters.
Necrons.
Tau.

Killswitch<>
28-06-2009, 18:23
wait so your saying dark angels are good...LMFAO!

Maidel
28-06-2009, 18:26
wait so your saying dark angels are good...LMFAO!

I was waiting for someone else to say it first...


But he did specifically say he was basing it on their most powerful build - which im assuming for dark angels would be all deathwing - which isnt a BAD army.

Killswitch<>
28-06-2009, 18:31
Yeh but...LOL! higher than both eldar types...and tyranids...and vanila marines....LOL WUT?

This is the real list:
Orks.
Eldar.
Chaos Space Marines.
Imperial Guard.
Tyranids.
Dark Eldar.
Witch Hunters.
Space Marines
Black Templars.
Daemons.
Dark Angels.
Space Wolves
Blood Angels.
Necrons.
Tau
Daemon Hunters.

only joking...
28-06-2009, 18:44
Why have witch hunters above vanilla marines and BT's?

Mart007
28-06-2009, 18:53
Remember most people play SM and combined with the earlier comment people never say they are over powered!

Chaos/Orksies
IG/SM

top four easy.

only joking...
28-06-2009, 18:56
Replace IG with Eldar and we just found our top four ;)

Badger[Fr]
28-06-2009, 19:03
The most powerful army? Easy, anything that beats me is broken. My army, however, is always the underdog, regardless of the opponent, and only through my tactical genius can I achieve victory.

More seriously, an accurate power scale should rely on proven results (such as tournament rankings) instead of personal opinions. As an exemple, I met several experienced players who did well with Tau and Space Wolves. And I still remember how the Internet wisdom claimed that Sternguard Spam would be the be-all and end-all tournament army...

Blackmoor
28-06-2009, 19:03
People have broken down the “Power Scale” into tiers.

There is a top tier of armies/codexes that are the most powerful, and then you have a middle tier, and then you have the bottom tier. Most people can agree on what codexes are in what tiers, but you will get a lot of arguments over the exact ranking.

For an example, the most powerful codexes (the top tier) are (in no particular order):
Orks
Chaos Space Marines
Eldar (UK only)
Demons (US only)

Note: It is too early to say which tier the IG codex will fall into.

The_Outsider
28-06-2009, 19:05
I personally rate necrons around the middle somewhere - they certainly aren't auto lose like warseer likes to claim.

To give context, warseer also thinks that chaos are a gimped force unless you run lash/plague marines/oblits.

Calypsius
28-06-2009, 19:09
Wow, there's always gonna be a huge variation guys. The only input that I'll contribute is about wolves and DE.

I dunno how many of you have played a wolf player w/ the current rules and FAQ, but for them to be outta the top 3, let alone the top 5 is insane. You guys do realise their characters will maul almost anything? And that they can have characters w/ a 2+/3+ with a Frost blade and a cyclone missile launcher? Coupled w/ all the LR, Dreadnought and speeder variants(If I read the FAQ properly about LR Spdr and Dred Variants), and the fact that their Termies can take pods(Huge advantage for initial accuracy IMO) Easily puts them in the top 5, if not the top 3.

As for the DE, now that cover saves are everywhere it brings into the realm of even more validity of the warrior horde w/ 3 ravagers and a big HQ. Or just look at the fact that their transport is cheaper than a MM speeder and has a lance weapon, or for a few pts can take a PCannon w/ rapid fire bursts.
(BTW, I'm not a wolves player, and haven't played DE for 3 years) But, as with most of the armies in the upper tier, they need to be piloted by a skilled player, as they're all fragile. So IMO for them to be outta the top 7 or 5 is madness.

But honestly, the best way is to decide on each armies top list(by vote), then debate and compare how each race's strongest compares to each other, and go off of that.(Hrmm, maybe I'll work on that thread)


Cheers

Mart007
29-06-2009, 00:30
Ahh yes DE, not many people use them and I havent ever faced them or even have there dusty dex, so on that basis i cant comment!

I think also what makes this a tougher call depends on what list the player uses! Its easy to say Orks are the toughest army, but if the player isnt using a Boy/nob biker spam list, they are a somewhat different army! Again with Chaos, take away double lash...

If your not taking an over powered list, then armies that are you face that are are going to seem unbeatable!!

As for Eldar they are extremely good, but also have a very balanced list and used by someone who knows what they are doing with them are very tricky!

I think judge on the easiest army to make a an effective list you would have to say Orks and Nilla SM...

Orks as put plenty of boyz in and point em in the right direction! SM as they have the most forgiving squads.

IG I would put on a similar level to Eldar personally!

Maybe there isnt an out and out top army, just a few that are stronger than others?

chaos0xomega
29-06-2009, 00:52
I think IG is going to be like daemons in Fantasy then we get Orks = vamp counts. For the people that don't play fantasy it goes like this in rank.

Daemons










Vamp Counts

Dark Elves
Everyone else
Bottom Tier.

Thats the way I'm am starting to see 40k go in power creeping.

I dont know who's at the top, but I know Ogre Kingdoms ARE at the bottom...


Orks
Chaos Space Marines
Eldar (UK only)
Demons (US only)

Im not sure I understand this, are the brits using different codecies than us?

freddieyu
29-06-2009, 00:52
people seem to forget to factor in the people playing them..or can we say good players naturally gravitate to the more powerful codex? But I don't think so...

And while tourney results reflect "official" competitions, I think fun or casual gamings should also be factored in..

Which means in reality..the most powerful army (for GW) are those people buy stuff for the most..

So, number 1 are Marines, since most people buy them.....then currently the other ones are IG (simply because people who collect have to buy more!), Orks, CSM....

In terms of "pure" power armies, then I agree that it is best to let the tourney scene judge, although I say the number of entries for that army should be factored in too (for example, marines or CS< have the greatest chance to win since more people field them)....so yeah while I believe IG now should be in the top 4, give it a year to see where it settles down...

freddieyu
29-06-2009, 00:57
There isn't going to be huge variation in 40k simply because the rules in 40k do not favor units staying around forever....there is "instant death", a lot of strength 8-10 weapons, and you only pick the best armor saves in 40k vs fantasy....in other words there is no real "death star' unit in 40k (nobz bikers are the closest, but against multiple s8-10 ordnance templates even they will fall)...but the biggest reason why 40k will have more parity is simple..no unbalanced magic phase in 40k unlike in fantasy....

Sigh, I am extremely disappointed in how whfb is turning out....

noobzilla
29-06-2009, 06:56
I'm not sure I understand why people think that Tau suck so much?

I do quite well with my Tau, and I don't even play Mech.

AlmightyNocturnus
29-06-2009, 07:16
It`s interesting that in Fantasy Battle (FB), everyone is almost unanimous in ranking the top and bottom-tiered armies because the power-level discrepency is just that naked and obvious...but in 40K, we seem to get a lot of different responses. There are a few armies that obviously blow the goat (Daemonhunters, Necrons), but otherwise the balance is pretty good right now. At least we refer to "cheesy-builds" in 40K and not "cheesy armies". My advice to the OP: Don`t worry about power rankings...just make your favorite army, paint it to the best of your ability, and have fun.

Almighty Nocturnus

Stillfrosty
29-06-2009, 07:31
Every time I see one of these threads the first thing I think to myself is which army takes the least amount of thought to do well with.

Well we all know what the answer is. Naturally the armies at the top take no talent what so ever and are amazing because the internet said so, but never do well against someone who is competent.

However that really doesn't explain the armies which are amazing when you actually think while playing the game. I honestly believe that in capable hands that the power tier list would be radically different then what most people believe.

Lotoc_Sabbath
29-06-2009, 07:56
I think the best is MARBO, SLY MARBO





the others stay here they are just normal people :)

anyway I think the game is balanced there are no armies stronger then others anyway we can clearly see that some, SOME very few armies as necrons are very unbalanced..
Everyone says that de are weak...NO! they are very tough and i find it difficult to win with them.
Daemon hunters are absolutely balanced and their codex functions very well they have good units at their real points and when I play with or against them i always enjoy myself.
Tyranids are greatly balanced they have a satisfactory number of units...its that they need many testing before you can really find it easy to play with them and win! (never, NEVER try do to the mono-carnifex it is just useless, trust me)
what else...all other armies are very balanced and have good differences of strategies between them even tau-...you need to be very careful when you deploy but for the rest they are great...if you have problems in CC use some kroots sorry!
SM, IG, CSM, sisters, eldar are very balanced and have no problems with their codex
the basic point in w40k is that you need a lot, lot of practice before you can say an army is weak....

Mart007
29-06-2009, 09:24
didnt Tau win GT last year?

leeoaks
29-06-2009, 09:49
if you are gonna do this surely you must have a list of top three places of all the major tournaments running, then tot them up!

genestealer_baldric
29-06-2009, 09:50
TOP

1)Orks
2)SM/ CSM
3)Eldar

MIDDLE

1) NIDS
2) IG
3) DE

BOTTOM

1) TAU
2) NECRONS
3) GK

Bloodknight
29-06-2009, 09:51
Why have witch hunters above vanilla marines and BT's?

Because they are better, at least better than Templars. The trick with the Witch Hunters is leaving the Inquisition crap and the Repentias at home and building a mechanized pure Sisters force with 2 almost unkillable HQs (Celestine and a Canoness in similar gear), spamming faith points, meltaguns, flamers and Exorcists.

My List:

Orks
CSM
Eldar/Nidzilla
WH
IG/SM/BA/DE; pretty much the same
BT
Tau
DA
GK
Necrons

I don't know where Daemons go, they're a bit hit or miss unless you spam Bloodcrushers (as in 20 Bloodcrushers...) with Fateweaver, for example.

There is, however, a lot of stone/paper/scissors involved, and most of the better armies basically derive their status from a single build.
DE eat SM, IG eats DE; Nidzilla eats most, but gets thrashed by DE and WH etc.

I think the hardest matchups for almost everybody would be Eldar with an unkillable Seer Council and Orks of all kinds. Double Lash has IMO lost a lot of its appeal over the last few books. Lash is useless against mounted troops, and almost everybody goes Mech nowadays or has at least some psychic defense.

Mart007
29-06-2009, 10:04
I just think WH are really hard to use! Kudos if your having success with them though, but the close range weaponary takes some well played tactics... imo.

WH for me come a lot lower down!

only joking...
29-06-2009, 21:19
Whats so great about WH? I really don't get it...

senorcardgage
29-06-2009, 21:49
It`s interesting that in Fantasy Battle (FB), everyone is almost unanimous in ranking the top and bottom-tiered armies because the power-level discrepency is just that naked and obvious...but in 40K, we seem to get a lot of different responses. There are a few armies that obviously blow the goat (Daemonhunters, Necrons), but otherwise the balance is pretty good right now. At least we refer to "cheesy-builds" in 40K and not "cheesy armies".

I find this really interesting too. It's really hard to rank armies in 40k. Are we just comparing the best list that a codex can make, or are we talking about a standard list? Any codex (well, almost any) can make at least one very strong list if they wanted to!

Well, then again, you have to try hard to make a bad Ork list :)



Whats so great about WH? I really don't get it...

They can be really crazy with the faith points. You can get a group of ten of them in a rhino with two flamers for a very low price and then when they dump out they get a lot of hits, which can be made AP1. The same can be done but with meltas to annihilate tanks. A fully mechanised WH list with all sisters is very scary!

Bloodknight
29-06-2009, 21:58
I think it only makes sense to compare the best allround builds of each codex if you go for tiers. Of course you can easily build a bad WH list or a bad CSM or Eldar list, but people usually don't play these. Not playing one of the cut&paste DE lists mean you have a bad list...other armies struggle building a top list, while Orks struggle to build a really weak one.

senorcardgage
29-06-2009, 22:07
I think it only makes sense to compare the best allround builds of each codex if you go for tiers. Of course you can easily build a bad WH list or a bad CSM or Eldar list, but people usually don't play these. Not playing one of the cut&paste DE lists mean you have a bad list...other armies struggle building a top list, while Orks struggle to build a really weak one.

I'm not talking about trying to make bad lists intentionally, but making more normal lists rather than super-ultra-powergamey ones. It isn't that often that I play against the cut-and-paste armies, so why should I care which of these one is the best of the best?

Bloodknight
29-06-2009, 22:24
I understood as much. ;) But in some books like DE you have basically the choice between playing a tournament list, or inflict unnecessary hardship on you because a single bad choice screws up the concept that makes the army work.

What I wanted to say is that "normal lists" are hardly quantifiable in comparison to powergaming lists.

Mart007
29-06-2009, 23:11
You could easily make a bad Ork list - couple of ten strong boyz squads and then go for expensive elites! But I think they are the easiest army to make a killer list/normal list.

The problem is people play there games normally with people they know and if the play against someone who always wins with an army can sway you to believe a list is cheesy.

We need someone/people as said before, to pull together the results of all the major tourny's across the world to get a handle on what is actually winning.

As it stands the best armies to make a normal list with are SM and Orks number one. Its to hard with all the opinions - all right in there own circumstances.. but we need hard facts...

bob_the_small
29-06-2009, 23:12
They can be really crazy with the faith points. You can get a group of ten of them in a rhino with two flamers for a very low price and then when they dump out they get a lot of hits, which can be made AP1. The same can be done but with meltas to annihilate tanks. A fully mechanised WH list with all sisters is very scary!

But that is all dependent.

Bloodknight
29-06-2009, 23:24
Dependent on what? Sisters are pretty cheap for what you get, you can afford a mix.

Mart007
29-06-2009, 23:37
I think WH are quite limited, all the flaming action means drawing them close to the enemy the timing of movement is so key and very easy to get wrong.

Faith points are nasty - but reliant on Mr D6, your not garenteed to have hard hitting units.

Not to say they are underpowered or anything, just more to think about in game...

Bloodknight
30-06-2009, 06:39
I wouldn't dispute that last sentence of yours ;)


all the flaming action

Never forget all that melta action that screws over a lot of mech build and Nidzilla...

senorcardgage
30-06-2009, 18:14
But that is all dependent.

Dependent upon what?

Edit:


Dependent on what? Sisters are pretty cheap for what you get, you can afford a mix.

Wish I would'a read that before posting :)


Faith points are nasty - but reliant on Mr D6, your not garenteed to have hard hitting units.

Can you think of any units that aren't reliant on Mr D6?

Mart007
30-06-2009, 18:46
lmao, no, buts its an extra layer of mr d6!

Bloodknight
30-06-2009, 19:33
Of course. I, however, think that, compared to Space Marines or especially Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (the Guard ones are now hardly comparable), Sisters don't even pay for faith points, they're just good anyway and can become awesome on a roll. ;)

Matt D
30-06-2009, 19:37
First of all, you have to remember that Hulk is the strongest there is.

that made me laugh.

Mart007
30-06-2009, 21:19
Of course. I, however, think that, compared to Space Marines or especially Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (the Guard ones are now hardly comparable), Sisters don't even pay for faith points, they're just good anyway and can become awesome on a roll. ;)

I'll agree, to disagree! But IMO they are a very unforgiving army, not everyone will be able to use, I only felt they were a couple of places to high on your top list - I hear what your saying - but SM have got to come higher - (imo of course!) ;)

noobzilla
02-07-2009, 04:33
I put Tau at a higher Tier then everyone else. I've always been pitted against people who play Tau who are very competent, and I don't believe that they should get the rep they get because they have quite a few builds that are very competitive, especially in the hands of a skilled general.

Tau are at least the top of the middle tier for me.

Znail
02-07-2009, 05:36
I'll agree, to disagree! But IMO they are a very unforgiving army, not everyone will be able to use, I only felt they were a couple of places to high on your top list - I hear what your saying - but SM have got to come higher - (imo of course!) ;)

Somewhat amusing is the post not long ago where someone compared a vote on powerlevel with actual results from the last year. WH and SM was the two that stood out as performing very difffrent from what people voted. SM was voted as among top 4, but performed in bottom 4 while WH was the other way around. Simply put, SM are wastly overated while WH are underated.

Its somewhat strange as its pretty easy to see that WH are a solid list. Basic Sisters only lose 1T and melee stats to be priced inbetween SM and IG. Still get powerarmor, same ballistic skill and weapons as SM. The extra melee stats for SM are worth little as real melee units kill them anyway, so its only against other non-melee units its marginaly noticed. The somewhat limited weapons arent a problem as they can use the weapons most SM players use anyway, Flamers and Meltaguns. They can even use 2 in the same unit, wich is something SM players fervently wish they could.

Exorcist fills any percived ranged anti-tank void and kills transports like none other.

Thats all you need for a successfull army, ranged anti-tank to kill transports, melta for harder targets and flamers for the meat that comes out.

big squig
02-07-2009, 05:50
Honestly, I'd rate chaos marines pretty low on the list.
1. Orks
2. Eldar
3. Space Marines
4. Imperial Guard
5. Chaos
6. Daemons
7. Tau
8. Which Hunters
9. Tyranids
10. Necrons
11. Deamon hunters

The_Outsider
02-07-2009, 08:26
Where do DE rate upon your list big squig?

big squig
02-07-2009, 08:30
Where do DE rate upon your list big squig?

haha, poor DE...almost forgot about them. It's been like 5 years since I've seen them even played. :p

Hmm..I'd say right below Chaos. It's amazing that a codex that freaking old can still sorta hold its own. But dear Lord they need a new book and a new mini line.

hush88
02-07-2009, 08:35
The hammer is the most powerful. One smack and your minis are gone.

So, the abilities of the general plays no part?

Lord Solar Plexus
02-07-2009, 09:09
I can only speak for myself, and I don't play against Chaos for example, so the armies I find the most challenging are, in this order:

more Orks than I have ammo
any army with 16+ Termis and Charl'ton He'stan / Kairos + PB + assorted stuff
fast Eldar


hmm its a tough one, everyone is going to say different things because they have favourites, the reason they collect them! no-one would purpously spend all that time/effort buying/painting and gaming with an army that they think are going to get obliterated!


Where did you read that? :confused: I play none of the armies I mentioned above, and I've played IG since 2E.



So, the abilities of the general plays no part?

No.

CEO Kasen
02-07-2009, 14:07
haha, poor DE...almost forgot about them. It's been like 5 years since I've seen them even played. :p

Hmm..I'd say right below Chaos. It's amazing that a codex that freaking old can still sorta hold its own. But dear Lord they need a new book and a new mini line.

Hey, they may not have that many tricks, but the tricks they do have work; Even better now that their Raiders don't easily fall down to rapid-firing Boltguns.