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hohenheim
01-07-2009, 02:03
Does a frenzied unit have to declare a charge that would definitely fail e.g. due to friendly unit in the way?

FFFFF <- frenzied unit
AAA <- allied unit (cannot move)
EEEEE <- enemy unit

Necromancy Black
01-07-2009, 02:34
No, they only declare a charge if they would be able to make the charge. Note that the rules for frenzy say "charge reach" and not "charge range".

hohenheim
01-07-2009, 04:04
No, they only declare a charge if they would be able to make the charge. Note that the rules for frenzy say "charge reach" and not "charge range".

Oh ok, thanks!

Conversely, can I still declare a charge if I want to, say if the allied unit is about to charge out of the way?

Loq-Gor
01-07-2009, 04:25
Yes, the FAQ's state that a charge can be declared when some other event is required to make the charge succesful. Just becareful about the order in which you complete the charges.

Necromancy Black
01-07-2009, 04:35
That shouldn't be so hard as the order charges are completed in is the order they are declared and all frenzied units can not declare charges until all non-frenzy units have declared charges.

jaxom
01-07-2009, 14:14
That shouldn't be so hard as the order charges are completed in is the order they are declared and all frenzied units can not declare charges until all non-frenzy units have declared charges.

Can't frenzied units voluntarily declare if they want to? Didn't think anything prevented them and in the case where the frenzied unit is in front and you want to charge with the back one I think you are allowed to charge the frenzied unit voluntarily and then charge the second unit. Not so?

nosferatu1001
01-07-2009, 14:54
Jaxom - no, frenzied units MUST wait until the end of declare charges before you can determine if they charge. They can never voluntarily declare charges.

BRB FAQ part 1 if memory serves.

jaxom
01-07-2009, 16:58
Wow, that would change my list some.

Anyone got a link to FAQ part1? I'll double check but I think all the links I have are to part2. (Or any concrete reference to this specific ruling that I can check?)

Edit: Found the link to part1 and it is there under Psych. Frenzied units cannot declare during regular charges. Thanks for the pointer.

xragg
01-07-2009, 17:36
Frenzy units can also never fail a charge except when their target flees out of their charge reach.

Da GoBBo
01-07-2009, 19:01
Since when can't frenzied units declare a normal charge? Nowhere does it say frenzied units cannot declare a charge alongside nonfrenzied units. As far as I know they have to see if they have to charge after charge responses, if they had not allready declared a charge. Also, I don't think the frenzy rule will oblige them to charge even if the friendly unit in the way has allready declared a charge. At that time ti would result in a failed charge. You would have to declare the frenzied units charge allong with all the others.

question, can you make a chargereaction versus the frenzycharge?

Nurgling Chieftain
01-07-2009, 20:17
Nowhere does it say frenzied units cannot declare a charge alongside nonfrenzied units.Yes it does; most clearly in the BRB FAQ, part 1, page 3, first entry under "Psychology".


question, can you make a chargereaction versus the frenzycharge?Yes. It's a normal charge declaration except where otherwise noted.

Da GoBBo
01-07-2009, 20:26
1) But is there anything not a FAQ supporting that? Not all people use FAQ's.

2) But one might be arguing the chance to declare a reaction is allready past. I think a friend of mine thinks so, but it has not been an issue so far.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-07-2009, 20:33
1) But is there anything not a FAQ supporting that? Not all people use FAQ's.The FAQ merely underscores what the rulebook already indicates.


2) But one might be arguing the chance to declare a reaction is allready past.There is no such thing in Warhammer Fantasy Battle as a charge without a charge reaction, although there are many cases where the choice of reactions is limited, frequently to just "hold". If you look up the various cases where you're not allowed to flee or S&S, you'll note that they're phrased in such a way that the unit receiving the charge automatically "holds" as their charge reaction.

puppetmaster24
01-07-2009, 20:37
i seem to remember that if there are two units are in charge range of a frenzied unit the owning player can choose which to charge.

Hulkster
01-07-2009, 20:37
Not all people use FAQS

WTF

those people are mental IMHO

What do you do in the absence of FAQs?

Urgat
01-07-2009, 21:04
Since when can't frenzied units declare a normal charge? Nowhere does it say frenzied units cannot declare a charge alongside nonfrenzied units.

Yes it does, it's in the BRB, not even in a faq.


1) But is there anything not a FAQ supporting that?

Well yes, the BRB, go read the frenzy rules again.

Necromancy Black
01-07-2009, 23:39
It is indeed in the BRB, the FAQ simply removes any confusion about the rule.

jrodrag
02-07-2009, 00:39
The main reason for the rule, as far as I can see, is to prevent people from measuring the frenzied charge prior to declaring charges with non-frenzied units. This was somewhat ambiguous before and tried against me. However the FAQ makes it clear that this is not possible. Other than that I don't see that it actually changes anything in the gameplay as charge reactions can even be changed after the frenzied unit declares. So a unit that would have stayed against the dogs and declared such can change thier minds when they see the frenzied chaos knights charging them as well.

WLBjork
02-07-2009, 05:59
Frenzy units can also never fail a charge except when their target flees out of their charge reach.

Or some magical item takes effect ;) (Dwarf Rune of Slowness for example).

jaxom
02-07-2009, 17:19
Actually, there are many cases where it makes a difference. Take the following arrangement.

K = frenzied Knight
k = normal Knight
E = enemy



EEEEE
EEEEE


KKK
KKK

kkkkkk


You want to charge the frenzied knights first so that you can get a charge with both sets of knights. Charge order does not allow it though.

xragg
03-07-2009, 03:33
Another example of where allowing frenzied units to declare a charge during the normal declare charge phase could be abused:

I have a frenzied unit of plague monks that has a target ~10" in front of them, and another unit to their side meant to bait them. I know the baiting unit is in charge reach and will leave my monks hanging out to dry. Yet, if I would be allowed to declare a charge in the normal phase, I would declare a charge against the unit 10" away. Even if I may not be able to reach them, its better failing a charge straight ahead then being forced to expose my flank.

Drachen_Jager
03-07-2009, 05:39
i seem to remember that if there are two units are in charge range of a frenzied unit the owning player can choose which to charge.

Yeah, you must charge but the choice of which unit is entirely up to the controlling player just so long as the charge can be completed.

Masque
04-07-2009, 06:30
Here's a slight twist on the Frenzied units must charge scenario:

According to BRB FAQ 2 you are allowed to declare charges that might be possible. An example would be when your own fleeing troops are between the charging unit and the target and they might flee far enough out of the way to allow the charge to be completed.

If the potential charging unit in such a situation has Frenzy must it declare the charge? Would you allow a choice? No matter how likely or unlikely it is that it would be possible?

nosferatu1001
04-07-2009, 10:22
There is a chance of the charge reach being available, so they must declare the charge - I wouldnt allow a choice.

Da GoBBo
06-07-2009, 11:39
At that specific moment it is not possible, so I think they do not have to declare a charge.

Milgram
06-07-2009, 12:18
Frenzy units can also never fail a charge except when their target flees out of their charge reach.

incorrect. there are multiple things that can make them fail a charge.

compulsory movements into the way of the frenzy units (e.g. a pump wagon)
fleeing units that run into the way
other chargers that block the way
a chariot flees through the vampire general, kills him and the undead unit infront of the frenzied unit seizes to exist. :)
short rolls for things like the waaagh banner (while there are discussions on whether frenzied units can use it at all)
a reduced unit of nightgoblins, standing infront of the frenzied unit, that declared a charge against a dark elf unit and fails the fearcheck, therefore remains in the way (just happened to me in the last game).

there are probably other things, but this is what strikes to my mind.



There is a chance of the charge reach being available, so they must declare the charge - I wouldnt allow a choice.

like some unit on the other end of the table fleeing trough another unit resulting in a giant chain reaction that leads to the unit infront of you fleeing as well?

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 12:28
At that specific moment it is not possible, so I think they do not have to declare a charge.

The BRB FAQ indicates that possible can be contingent on other actions, such as another charge taking place first.

So yes, the charge IS possible at the time (you have declared a charge prior to it, therefore your way is open assuming LOS) therefore you must charge.

Milgram
06-07-2009, 14:07
but 'possible under certain conditions' is not equal to 'possible'.

other situation: when my pump wagon will be able to block the route of the savage orcs even with a double one, then the charge is impossible and does not have to be declared? it is the same logic, would you apply it or rather go for double standard?

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 15:26
Yes: they state that you can declare charges that are contingent upon other events to occur first - for example skinks passing a terror test to charge a target to get them out the way of a Stegadon is a possible charge for the stegadon, therefore it is legal to declare it.

Similarly the savage orcs must declare a charge against the target as the pump wagon may move out the way. If it doesnt then you have a failed charge - same way if the skinks fail a fear check and stay put, blocking the stegadon from charging.

"Possible" is in fact the superset of "possible under certain conditions" - it's the definition of the word in fact....

rtunian
06-07-2009, 15:34
if you fail a terror test, you flee. the skinks would probably be out of the stegs way regardless of whether they pass the test or not. if they pass, they charge, if they fail, they flee. you'd just need to roll high enough flee in compulsory movement phase

for the sake of argument though, you take the psych test to charge before you actually declare the charge. you have to pass in order to declare it. according to p.50 and p.51 (for charging fear and terror causers, respectively), it says "if the test is passed, the charge is delcared as normal".

frenzied charges are "declared" last... so psych tests that are conditional to your frenzied unit charging would already have all been done. if a unit is blocking your frenzied unit, that unit must be in front of it right? so the flee move would probably only have to be a few inches in order to clear the frenzied unit

in short, only compulsory movements that have yet to happen are relevant in considering the question "do i have to declare a frenzied charge" (assuming it's in range, duh)

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 15:56
OK - how about if you have a S&S reaction whcih panics the skinks back towards the steg? They still end up in the way (potentially) but you still are able to declare a charge in the first place.

AS you "can" declare a charge frenzied chargers MUST declare a charge.

Milgram
06-07-2009, 16:11
Similarly the savage orcs must declare a charge against the target as the pump wagon may move out the way.

you clearly got me wrong here. the pump wagon is NOT in the way when the savage orcs declare a charge but he WILL be in the way with a 100% chance when the savage orcs try to reach the enemy unit. so it is an impossible charge under conditions that will happen at a 100% chance in the future.



therefore it is legal to declare it.

and then you clearly have another one wrong. frenzied units do NOT have do declare a charge when they have a legal target to declare the charge on. it is completely legal to charge a unit that stands 10" away with an unit that has M4. obviously a frenzied unit measures first and then declares the charge, so they will NOT charge the enemy unit, even though it is a legal target. as you base your whole argumentation on that, I'd say 'myth is busted'.

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 17:11
Ah right, perhaps if you'd written your post a little clearer maybe? The implication of "even a double 1" suggests that it could move out the way, it really wasn't clear however.

If the pump wagon can possibly move out the way then you must declare a charge. If you then decide to move the pump wagon in the way, as you have the choice to do so (it can go backwards quite legally) then that is your fault and you must deal with it.

It is not legal to declare a charge you know to not have sufficient charge reach - so declaring 10" away when you only have M4 is decidedly NOT legal. Frenzied units must declare a charge when they have sufficient charge reach, and as the BRB FAQ shows charge reach can include any a priori events, such as fleeing units moving out the way (or not moving and rallying) within the definition of "reach"

"legal to charge" means "has LOS, charge reach and can make contact baring (or relying on) other events"

Myth not busted I'd say.

Da GoBBo
06-07-2009, 17:16
The BRB FAQ indicates that possible can be contingent on other actions, such as another charge taking place first.

So yes, the charge IS possible at the time (you have declared a charge prior to it, therefore your way is open assuming LOS) therefore you must charge.

I agree with this, but the situation I was reacting to describes a fleeing unit in the way at the start of the turn. I don't think you should count on them running away fast enough to get the boyz into chargerange. I would not oblige my opponent to charge with the savage orcs, and stand a good chance on failing that charge. There is a difference between declaring a charge and hoping the unit will not be there, and being obliged to declare a charge with your unit because said unit might not be there next turn.

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 17:22
While you may give them the choice, my interpretation is that, with "possible charges" being quite expansive now, you must charge if you possibly have reach, and that can require other contingent actions to take place.

Another pertinent example would be boar boys with fanatics in the way - you should have to charge, as the orcs on top wouldn't hold back just cos of a small gobbo in the way, would they? ;)

Milgram
06-07-2009, 17:49
It is not legal to declare a charge you know to not have sufficient charge reach - so declaring 10" away when you only have M4 is decidedly NOT legal. [...]

"legal to charge" means "has LOS, charge reach and can make contact baring (or relying on) other events"


two inches short is a normal failed charge. it is not illegal to declare a charge on a target you cannot reach. it is an illegal charge when you a) cannot see the enemy or you OBVIOUSLY can't reach the enemy - say a first turn charge on a WLC with a disklord in the woods (yes, that is exaggerated). and of course there are a lot of other illegal charge declarations, e.g. a unit that failed animosity cannot declare a charge.

yes, frenzied units will almost never declare a charge on a unit that is not in range, but... it is not considered an illegal charge per s. so being legal is not the prime condition for a frenzied unit to be forced to charge. it is ONLY to have reach to the target. and in the moment you are forced to declare a charge with the frenzied unit, you cannot reach the enemy. but it is a legal charge that the frenzied unit is enabled to declare a charge upon by the FAQ2.

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 19:30
Missing by 2 inches is an "illegal" charge in that from that range the difference should be fairly obvious. Or else the group I play in is better at judging distances than yours....

At no point did I say asbout illegal charges - I was talking about situations where there is a legal charge situation (where they have reach as long as other contingent events occur) then the frenzied unit must charge.

Sorry but I got lost in your second paragraph - I can't quite work out what youre trying to say? I think you agree that if it is a legal charge due to other conditions occuring first, i.e. they have reach (range is irrelevant, only reach!) then that is a legally allowable charge, and by the frenzy rule they must then declare a charge.

Milgram
06-07-2009, 20:47
well, we do not just blindli run straight onto our opponents. we wheel from time to time, therefore we sometimes also have to wheel while charging. and so it may happen, that you end up short by up to two inches on M4. I cannot see anything illegal here.

it does not matter if you are talking about illegal charges. because when you say 'every legal charge' then it excludes 'every illegal charge' and I can show you from the top of my head 5 kind of legal charges that a frenzy unit does not have to declare:

1) out of range (where the line between 'legal' and 'illegal' lies is a soft rule)
2) not reachable (two units/terrains are slightly to close to be able to charge through between them, but you will only know once you move your unit or measure the distance between them)
3) you can add 1d3 to your charge distance with a one use only item
4) an enemy unit is CLEARLY out of range, but it is charged from the other side too and if it chooses to take the charge reaction 'flee' - or fails a fear/terror test - it will run into range and then unevitably be destroyed by your second charge
5) you have things in the way that under certain conditions will move out of the way

case 4 is interesting, because with your argumentation, it would both be an illegal charge and a compulsory charge - all at the same time!

my second paragraph from above just states the same as I wrote here again. in short: you don't have to declare a charge, because it is legal, but because you can reach your target under the actual circumstances - not under some conditions that might or might not occure.

I won't argue on the fanatic thing. there are certain things that are arguable (e.g. when the fanatic stands infront of the charged unit - the boar boys still would be able to 'decide' whether they end their movement on the fanatic or not).

but please take another look on pg. 52 of the brb. it is clearly written that you measure after all other units declared their charge. but you look at that moment, whether you can reach any opponents in your LOS or not. 'probable conditions' have no effect here. IF you have no enemy in reach, you may still declare a charge to another unit that you might have reach under certain conditions. but it is not forced.

this also means that when you have two possible targets at the time of the charge declaration but only one is reachable without 'conditions', then you have to charge the reachable unit and you have no choice.

btw: still got no clear answer from you regarding the pump wagon and the dying vampire lord.

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 22:54
Right, you missed my point when I stated charge reach and not charge range

Charge reach means taking into account any wheeling required to contact, slowing for terrain, etc. This means that your examples 1 and 2 are already answered - 1 never happens for frenzied units (you measure, remember??) and so is asinine to list, or just plain wrong of you, and 2 is also impossible for frenzied units! Please read what I post before putting stupid lists down....

Add 1D3 - if you are 2M+1" you are definitely reachable, so you should declare - you have reach by the very definition - you cannot choose not to declare the charge in this case. In addition if you are 2M+2" or 2M+3" away then your reach is possible and so you must still declare a charge - this is the whole "contingent events making a charge possible" thing that I keep mentioning and that you keep ignoring. 5) is yet another example of this - it is possible that the charge will succeed therefore you must declare a charge - please please please stop ignoring the requirement that you have reach and not just range. The two are not the same. You have to measure to determine reach as categorically explicated in the FAQ. The FAQ explains that probable conditions can be taken into account to determine reach and therefore if this is the case frenzied untis must also take probable conditions into reach.

It is not an illegial charge if it is possible to charge yet the conditions required to do so, such as fleeing units moving out the way etc are not met - you are forced to declare, however you may then not make the charge.

BTW: still didnt get a clear explanation of what you were asking about with the pump wagon , I already asked this, however as you dont actually read the posts or seem to understand that "range" is not the same as "reach".....

Milgram
07-07-2009, 08:19
I don't ignore your argument, I keep telling you that it is wrong as it is not supported by the rules.

obviously you ignore my questions that would force you to admit double standards:

1) dying vamp
2) double charge for overrun

I do not add the pump wagon as you obviously need a better explanation to the problem:

a savage orc unit and a pump wagon stand side by side, the pump wagon slightly ahead. there is an enemy unit in reach of the savage orcs, so they would have to declare the charge. now the pumpwagon is able to block this charge with any roll from 2-12 and the o&g player intends to do exactly that. so under probable conditions - well, not only probable conditions but future conditions - the pump wagon will block the charge and therefore make it impossible. do the savage orcs get a free pass to move as normal instead of failing the charge?

did you actually read the FAQ2? because if you do, then you read there 'it's acceptable to declare a charge in this kind of situations'. now, english is not my native language, but... this seems to me very obvious.

WLBjork
07-07-2009, 08:22
Hold on, why is the pump wagon moving in it's opponents movement phase?

Milgram
07-07-2009, 08:41
doesn't it move every turn? I used to play it that way!

just kidding.

uhm... it is not, it is moving after the savage orcs declared the charge but before the charge is executed. the savage orcs are the frenzy unit in this example.

Adran
07-07-2009, 09:06
Since you pick the direction of the pump wagon, before you roll the distance, the pump wagon may overshoot blocking your unit (unless the foe is very close or you have a very wide savage orc unit) so it is still required to charge.

So it goes
Declare all non frenzied charges (including checking fear/terror) Await responses
Measure for frenzied units. If there are units that they could reach in the move charges phase, you must declare this charge, even if this is dependant on certain compulsery moves ( fleeing units or other charging units currently in the way, pump wagons and anything else that may move before the frenzied unit would have to charge).
This includes checking for wheeling, terrain and such like for the frenzied unit.

Compulsery moves phase
Move charges in the order you declared them. If any of these charges fail, then it is a failed charge.

I would say that if an enemy unit has declared a flee responce that would bring them closer to the frenzy unit, but aren't currently in their charge range, then they wouldn't charge. But I'm not sure about this one

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 10:15
Ah, so when I post that you misunderstood "reach" for "range", that isn't you getting the argument wrong? Of course not....you ignored that the first 2 "points" you made are simply wrong as well....

So, you find out that the Savage Orcs must charge, as the unit at the time the reach is determined has "charge reach", yet you think that you can not declare the charge as you intend to block with the pump wagon? Um, no, that's not how it works.

At the time the charge has to be declared, the charge is possible. You must declare. If you then decide to move the pump wagon in the way, that is your problem and it will indeed then block the charge resulting in a failed charge. The appropriate phrase is "tough titty" - you can't have you cake (frenzy) and eat it.

At no point have I ever, ever addressed a point involving a "dying vamp" - so why do you insist I have somehow "failed"? :wtf:

Milgram
07-07-2009, 11:18
Ah, so when I post that you misunderstood "reach" for "range", that isn't you getting the argument wrong? Of course not....you ignored that the first 2 "points" you made are simply wrong as well....

can't see why my first two points should be wrong. they are not illegal charges and the frenzy unit will not have to declare the charge - or better, are not allowed to declare the charge. never stated anything else, did I?


So, you find out that the Savage Orcs must charge, as the unit at the time the reach is determined has "charge reach", yet you think that you can not declare the charge as you intend to block with the pump wagon? Um, no, that's not how it works.

YES, YES, YES, that is what I try to say the whole time. see, 'reach' is determined at the exact time of the charge declaration. there are no possibilities or options or whatever taken into consideration. it is plain and simple measuring. all other charges are simply allowed, even though they are not in reach.


At the time the charge has to be declared, the charge is possible.

you don't take possible charges, you take charges that you have reach.


At no point have I ever, ever addressed a point involving a "dying vamp" - so why do you insist I have somehow "failed"? :wtf:

looking backwards, I did not bring up that one directly, so please take my appologies. but I will bring it up now (and expand it a tiny bit):

in a 2vs2 game, orcs and vamps together, a chariot is fleeing. on his flight route there is a unit of orks, which could suffer 25% casualties, if the chariot flees through them. so they could panik and then could flee through a second chariot. this chariot paniks because a unit of 5+ orks flees through him. he then would be able to flee into a unit of 2 skeletons and the vampire general - of course only on a 14+ roll, which he could wipe out by rolling a 7, rolling nicely as to get 3 hits on the vampire and could wound 3 times and kill the vampire. this could cause a undead unit infront of the frenzy unit, that blocks the way to a target, to fail their ld test after their general died and then allow the frenzy unit to charge.

there is a probability that you will have reach when the charge move is executed (you still don't have reach when the charge is declared - which is the whole point of us arguing), would you force the savage orcs to charge?

@adran: charge reactions are declared after all chargers declared charges. it is somewhat unclear in the BRB, but it was discussed here and I believe it might be in one of the FAQ's.

/edit: I will stop my involvment here... I don't think that it has any sense to repeat the obvious.

Adran
07-07-2009, 11:59
OK, Have just been checking what the FAQs say on the matter.
Two things I feel are relevant.

Firstly, declaring a charge you know to not be in is cheating. (so units you know are beyond your charge range). Since Frenzy states you have to measure to discover if the enemy is in charge range, a frenzied charge can only be declared agaionst something in range. So, no movement 4 frenzied charges against things 10 inches away. This also includes checking for wheeling and space between units in my opinion. (so if there is an 80 mm gap between units, then your 5 wide savage orc boys can't declare the charge because they can't get through the gap).

Secondly since the FAQ says that you can declare a charge based on hoping units flee, don't fail a fear test etc, I think a frenzied unit must declare a charge if this is a posibility.

This leaves frenzied units only failing charges if the opponents flee far enough, of if some movement between declaring and moving has meant that it can no longer charge. This could be a unit fleeing into the gap, or rallying, or a pump wagon.

Although the FAQ also includes this on screening units

If the screening unit is also declaring a charge (i.e. they intend to get out of the way), then the frenzied unit behind them can, and indeed must, declare a charge as well. If the screening unit does not declare a charge, the frenzied unit behind does not have to declare a charge, as it wouldn’t be able to reach the intended target. If the screening unit doesn’t move far enough to clear the way (because they failed the charge, or if a Fear test stopped them in their tracks, and so on), then the frenzied unit behind them would also fail the charge, stopped by the screening unit getting in the way.


In your vampire example, I may have got slightly lost, but if I had a friendly unit in front of my frenzied unit that had not declared a charge, then the frenzied unit could not declare a charge. Even if the compulsery moves phase brings about a strange turn of events to result in the way becoming clear, they still can't charge.

SO only those that are currently going to move in the move charges or compulsery count as things that could get out of the way. Anything which gains a compulsery move (or has been compleltly destroyed) after the declare charges phase will still have blocked the frenzied unit.

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 12:18
can't see why my first two points should be wrong. they are not illegal charges and the frenzy unit will not have to declare the charge - or better, are not allowed to declare the charge. never stated anything else, did I?


They are "wrong" as you stated they were examples where you had range but not reach - but I never brought range into it, as only reach counts. I then explained how your "examples" were incorrect, which you then ignored. THis could be you had a different point in posting them, however if so this was not clear.



YES, YES, YES, that is what I try to say the whole time. see, 'reach' is determined at the exact time of the charge declaration. there are no possibilities or options or whatever taken into consideration. it is plain and simple measuring. all other charges are simply allowed, even though they are not in reach.


And this is where you are clearly wrong. REACH is not simply "am I in range" - it is "can i charge legally".

In the case of frenzied units you must, by the FAQ, take this into account - so you must charge if a screening unit charges (so you now have reach, despite it being a contingent event), you must charge if you can have reach (in the case of a +D6" banner, for example) so possibilities to charge are indeed taken into account. That is the point I am making and you are ignoring - where you can declare a legal charge, even if this requires other events to happen first, you must do so if you are frenzied. This is the very definition of reach as opposed to range - and is where I think you are missing what I am saying. Reach is a whole other deal than range!

I am sorry but I really don't get the Vampire example - perhaps a different situation? It is a little.....long winded and dense to read. Perhaps break it down a little as well?

Milgram
07-07-2009, 12:50
THis could be you had a different point in posting them, however if so this was not clear.

is it to be considered a flame when I post a link to wikipedia.org that shows the definition of the word 'context'? read my whole posts or don't answer to them. thank you.

Lordmonkey
07-07-2009, 12:50
In the case of frenzied units you must, by the FAQ, take this into account - so you must charge if a screening unit charges (so you now have reach, despite it being a contingent event), you must charge if you can have reach (in the case of a +D6" banner, for example) so possibilities to charge are indeed taken into account.

All correct, but at what point in the turn?

Going back to the Savage Orc + Pump Wagon example, do you check to see if frenzied units charge before or after doing compulsory moves? Given that frenzied units never 'declare' charges, do they still check for reach during the declare charges phase or during/at the start of the move chargers phase?

If they do so during the declare charges phase, they are obliged to charge even if the pump wagon is now in the way. The charge will consequently fail and the Orcs can't move that turn.

If they check for reach after compulsory moves are dealt with then they are known to not be in reach (because of the pump wagon) and so can operate freely.

Adran
07-07-2009, 13:43
Frenzied units do declare charges. They do so in the declared charges phase after all non frezied units have declared any charges. This is in the BRB in the declare charges paragraph

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 15:18
is it to be considered a flame when I post a link to wikipedia.org that shows the definition of the word 'context'? read my whole posts or don't answer to them. thank you.

:rolleyes:

Wow, I attempt to be polite (again) and get that as a response. Real mature. It;s not flaming, just showing a lack of basic levels of respect. By the way, wikipedia is not a great source when talking about the English language - the Oxford English Dictionary would be better, given they officially define the language and all.

Your posts, such as the vampire one, are not particularly clear. I asked, nicely, for more explanation of them and what you posted. If you can't be bothered to do that, I'll just ignore you as you are a waste of time.

Orks vs Pump Wagon:

Declare charges phase: pump wagon does not block the charge, therefore you have sufficient reach. If the O&G player then chooses to block the charge path, they really, really shouldn't complain about failing the charge. It's called "tough *****" - and really, if you've put yourself in that situation where you really, really don't want to charge then you've been a bad general at some point along the way, and only have yourself to blame - you just simply got outplayed.

Apparently I've got "double standards", according to the immature poster, however I have consistently stated: if you have charge reach you must, if frenzied, declare a charge. The FAQ outright states this, yet for some reason Milgram doesn't understand the difference. Perhaps someone else who is able to simplify it more can help?

Milgram
07-07-2009, 16:08
*yawn*

my three points (again) for all those who are not bored yet:

1) FAQ2 -> it defines a situation that would be an 'acceptable charge'. 'acceptable' implies 'can be accepted but is not covered by the rules' and something that is 'acceptable' can still be denied. it is too vague to base YOUR view of the rules on it.

2) reach is determined at a certain moment. in that moment, possible future conditions are not taken into account. there is one exception given by the FAQ and that is the charging screen. here we can also see the intention behind the statement in the FAQ, that a charging screen cannot screen anymore. but that charge is already determined by the moment the frenzy units charge.

3) IF we want to go with your opinion, then tell us, where 'probable circumstances' end and 'improbable circumstances' begin. the example with the charge reaction flee and a frenzied charge into the flight path is a very good one I think. is it probable enough, that the enemy declares the flee reaction? if you declare the charge from the back, then it is highly improbable, that he will flee - because he would be destroied, if you don't charge, it might be probable - depending on the charger from the other side. it could be night goblins, you know?

rtunian
07-07-2009, 16:10
Perhaps someone else who is able to simplify it more can help?

or better yet, perhaps both of you can drop it?

don't get me wrong, i'm all for debate, but you two are now just miscommunicating and misinterpreting each other, and it's devolving into pettiness.

"you didn't answer my question!"
"you didn't answer mine!"
"i asked first!"
"nu uh!"

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 16:49
Well, I asked how I could answer it...

Milgram - those werent the three points I asked about, I asked about your list of 5 "examples" and why you posted the obviously incorrect first two.

Anyways, with that last "yawn" comment I'm out. There is no point me posting as Milgram doesn't read what is posted, and resorts to insults.

Anyways: Charge reach is not charge range, and as the FAQ states you can take into account conditional events when determining if you can legally declare a charge then the compunction to declare a charge for frenzy units kicks in on the same conditions. To whit: if you can possibly charge you must declare it, otherwise you have two different standards, one for frenzy and one for normal units. Which is oddly what Milgram was saying I have.....

Drachen_Jager
07-07-2009, 17:13
there is a probability that you will have reach when the charge move is executed (you still don't have reach when the charge is declared - which is the whole point of us arguing), would you force the savage orcs to charge?

That sentence summarizes your problem here.

You do not take future conditions into consideration when declaring frenzy charges. You simply look at the table as it stands at that exact moment, if a charge is viable you MUST charge.

You're seriously overcomplicating things by taking future probability into account, it's irrelevant and against the rules. You measure your charges at the end of the declare charges phase, things that happen between that time and actual charges happening are not factored in.

Milgram
07-07-2009, 17:33
Milgram - those werent the three points I asked about, I asked about your list of 5 "examples" and why you posted the obviously incorrect first two.

reread it. 5 legal charges that frenzy units do not have to declare. if you state that the first two are incorrect... then they have to declare it? because the two points are legal charges, though a frenzy unit cannot declare them.

drachen jager, that is exactly what I am saying.

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 17:50
Right, how many times do I have to say this. I have never at any point mentioned range when talking about compulsory charges. I have only discussed charge reach - charge reach (underlining as you keep on ignoring when I say this) is a combination of distance, ability to actually fit through intervening terrain, plus any conditional events. This is why talking of "legal" charges in that way is completely nonsensical - I never posited that frenzied units "had" to charge when they cant reach, yet you decided to "prove" something by giving that list. Disingenuous at best. Stupid at worst.

Nevertheless, Milgram: you claimed I had double standards, for some unknown reason, when I have been perfectly consistent: If you have charge reach you must declare a charge if you are frenzied. This can, and as the screening unit plus the "conditional events can be taken into account" parts of the BRB FAQ bear out, include events that have to take place for you to have "reach"

This can include:

1) A unit fleeing out the way - you can declare a normal charge here, so to avoid a double standard you must charge if Frenzied

2) A pump wagon (or other compulsory movement object) getting into or out of the way of the charge - again, you can declare a charge normally based on X event occuring, so frenzied units must do so.

In fact Milgram, you have a demonstrable double standard - you come up with situations where a normal charge can be declared, and have sufficient reach to complete, yet somehow being "frenzied" changes things for you and you somehow forget this and think it is only about distance again. Nice one

Da GoBBo
07-07-2009, 20:10
So, you find out that the Savage Orcs must charge, as the unit at the time the reach is determined has "charge reach", yet you think that you can not declare the charge as you intend to block with the pump wagon? Um, no, that's not how it works.

Holy crap dude. If there is anyone being unclear it's you.
1. You present a situation where something might move out of the way, therefor forcing the SO to charge (this does not stack with what you say in the quote above).
2. Milgram gives a situation where something might move in front of the SO, blocking their path. He uses this situation to undermine your situation. If something can move out of the way, something can also move into the path. His conclusion is that you should not take these situation into account.
3. You did not understand this and have been ranting about the difference between reach and range ever since. And to be honest, you have been a complete ass about it. You also changed your point of view and now state that you should look at the situation at the moment of determining wether they should charge (so no "their might move something out of the way") and even say you have never said otherwise. Look at your posts at page 2, you have said otherwise. Before you go and scream at me. No, I did not read the last 10 posts. I glanced through it and didn't see anything but one big rant.

We all agree with this change of insight you have had. It doesn't matter if a fleeing unit is in the way and might move out of the way again, it doesn't matter if a pump weagon or a spawn is in the way and might move out of the way. It also doesn't matter if a fleeing unit might come to block your path before executing the charge move, it doesn't matter if a spawn or a pumpweagon might move in the path before excuting the chargemove. If there is something in the way, you do not have to declare a charge. If you have a clear path (and reach of course, reach includes wheeling and stuff) you have to declare a charge. All very plain and very simple.

stripsteak
07-07-2009, 20:50
it's getting way more complicated then it needs to be. from faq 2

at the time of determining the frenzy charge if previously declared charges would allow a frenzied unit to reach an enemy it currently has los to it must declare a charge. that is all. there is no account for undeclared future events, it does not take into account fleers since they have not attempted to rally yet you do not know if they are moving. The only thing taken into account is other chargeing units that would otherwise prevent the frenzy unit from reaching the target.

Nurgling Chieftain
07-07-2009, 21:43
That's a spectacularly narrow interpretation - you're using the example in the FAQ to override both the question and the text of the FAQ. Outside of the specific example, it merely keys on the screening unit's intention to get out of the way in time (and, of course, the partial-screen situation). I don't think I can support such a narrow interpretation of such a broad terminology.

nosferatu1001
08-07-2009, 00:19
That was kind of my point - the example given is of a unit moving out of the way, and this then forcing the frenzied unit to charge.

If that specific situation causes a charge, should it not be extended to all other situations where a charge can be made? So SO Have a clear path, sufficient reach etc - so must declare a charge. IF you move a pump wagon such that you then end up with it in the way it should be a failed charge - the time to declare charges has already passed.

Anyways, the way I read the FAQ is that conditional events that can allow a charge allow you to declare a legal charge. If that is so then by the same token frenzied units must declare - otherwise it is a double standard, with one being allowed to charge and the other getting a choice when frenzy dictates you mustn't.

That's all.

Adran
08-07-2009, 09:24
it does not matter if you are talking about illegal charges. because when you say 'every legal charge' then it excludes 'every illegal charge' and I can show you from the top of my head 5 kind of legal charges that a frenzy unit does not have to declare:

1) out of range (where the line between 'legal' and 'illegal' lies is a soft rule)
2) not reachable (two units/terrains are slightly to close to be able to charge through between them, but you will only know once you move your unit or measure the distance between them)
3) you can add 1d3 to your charge distance with a one use only item
4) an enemy unit is CLEARLY out of range, but it is charged from the other side too and if it chooses to take the charge reaction 'flee' - or fails a fear/terror test - it will run into range and then unevitably be destroyed by your second charge
5) you have things in the way that under certain conditions will move out of the way

case 4 is interesting, because with your argumentation, it would both be an illegal charge and a compulsory charge - all at the same time!

my second paragraph from above just states the same as I wrote here again. in short: you don't have to declare a charge, because it is legal, but because you can reach your target under the actual circumstances - not under some conditions that might or might not occure.

but please take another look on pg. 52 of the brb. it is clearly written that you measure after all other units declared their charge. but you look at that moment, whether you can reach any opponents in your LOS or not. 'probable conditions' have no effect here. IF you have no enemy in reach, you may still declare a charge to another unit that you might have reach under certain conditions. but it is not forced.

this also means that when you have two possible targets at the time of the charge declaration but only one is reachable without 'conditions', then you have to charge the reachable unit and you have no choice.






my three points (again) for all those who are not bored yet:

1) FAQ2 -> it defines a situation that would be an 'acceptable charge'. 'acceptable' implies 'can be accepted but is not covered by the rules' and something that is 'acceptable' can still be denied. it is too vague to base YOUR view of the rules on it.

2) reach is determined at a certain moment. in that moment, possible future conditions are not taken into account. there is one exception given by the FAQ and that is the charging screen. here we can also see the intention behind the statement in the FAQ, that a charging screen cannot screen anymore. but that charge is already determined by the moment the frenzy units charge.

3) IF we want to go with your opinion, then tell us, where 'probable circumstances' end and 'improbable circumstances' begin. the example with the charge reaction flee and a frenzied charge into the flight path is a very good one I think. is it probable enough, that the enemy declares the flee reaction? if you declare the charge from the back, then it is highly improbable, that he will flee - because he would be destroied, if you don't charge, it might be probable - depending on the charger from the other side. it could be night goblins, you know?

Milgrim
Certainly declaring a charge on a unit that is 6 inches away is fine, and if it takes 4 inches of wheel to make it in, then it is a failed charge.
But if the unit declaring this charge is frenzied, then before it could declare this charge you would have to measure it. You would then see that it was not in charge range, and so it can not declare the charge.
Going through your lists

1 If you are a frenzied unit, you measure before you declare. So you know if you can suceed or not. And if you know you are not able to reach then it is not legal to declare a charge
2 Same answer as above
3 If the unit is in reach without using the item you must charge. If it is not I would say you would measure if it is possible (ie would 2 extra inches be enough to be in) if this is the case you can announce you are using the item and thus declare a charge. I think it is possible for you to then role less than needed and get a failed charge
4 Unsure here. But personally I think this is not a required charge as the enemy unit can change its charge reaction to hold and the frenzied unit would not reach.
5 This is the situation covered in the FAQs and is covered in your next three points

1 My opinion is that if the charge is an acceptable charge, then the frenzied units must declare it. If you decided that such charges are not possible, then non frenzied units could not declare them either. Whilst I wouldn't personally agree with this, if my opponent chose to play it this way, I would accept it. But I don't like your suggestion that its an optional charge for frenzied units. I would play it either as an allowed charge declaration, and therefore compulsery for frenzied units, or not allowed for anyone.
2 There are two examples in the FAQs in which possible circumstances are allowed. One, in which you are charging with a unit in front, and one in which you are charging through a fleeing unit. I would personally expand the fleeing unit to any unit that has a compulsery move to make.
3 In my opinion these are the probable circumstances, and so I would force a frenzied unit to declare a charge
-A unit in front of the frenzied unit has declared a charge and so will move before I have to move the frenzed units charge
-A unit that current blocks my charge is currently subject to compulsery moves so whilst it is in my way at the moment, it can move out of the way before I move the frenzied unit. This could be fleeing, pump wagons, stupidity or any other compulsery move you can think of.
These are circumstances that I would not
-unit in front might be forced to take a panic test or stability test between my declare charges and move charges phase. If it fails it may not be blocking my route
-unit subject to compulsery move might get in my way.

I hope this is clear

Milgram
08-07-2009, 10:15
Anyways, the way I read the FAQ is that conditional events that can allow a charge allow you to declare a legal charge. If that is so then by the same token frenzied units must declare.

here we go again - in order for a charge to be legal, a unit does not have to be in reach. so legal is not equal to reach. why are you using them as equal? your whole argumentation bases on that error. thank you for bringing it up again.

but instead of going through this again, I'd much more like answering to adrins post.

the thing about frenzy units is, that they must charge if they have reach. if they do not have reach but they have legal targets, they are allowed to charge, but are not forced. now it is obvious that it is not legal to charge a unit that you know is out of range, and as you measure for frenzy before declaring, you know whether the enemy is in range or not - and whether he is in reach due to interfering terrain/units. that covers points 1&2 from my list.

to point 3/5: the consensus was once, that these items do not have to be used by frenzy units. also obviously here is, that you can only declare the charge here, when the enemy is at max +3" to your regular charge range.

to point 4/5: we agree here that it is an allowed, legal charge, that is not forced to frenzy units. (we could call this a precedent)

to point 5/5: this is a big issue.

fleeing units - they have the chance to rally between the declaration and the actual charge move. snotlings w/o general next to them will probably flee (1:6), the toads with musician and a slann close will probably rally (53:54). your average unit will rally on a 8 (13:18). this smashes even the 'probable' argument methinks. of course there are fleeing units due to failed terror tests (and panik due to animosity...), but I would not separate them. please note that this is not an argument to support my opinion but to undermine the arguments that stand against my opinion.

random compulsory movement - they do block reach at the moment the charge declaration

fixed compulsory movement - stupidity can be argued, that it could force the charge if after their movement the frenzy unit gains reach. but then again, what if the stupid unit has 360 los and therefore goes in a random direction?

charges - you have to charge with frenzy units when reach would be given due to the charge.

other effects - like possible failed panik tests and compulsory units that may move into the way, I think we agree on them.

Adran
08-07-2009, 11:39
here we go again - in order for a charge to be legal, a unit does not have to be in reach. so legal is not equal to reach. why are you using them as equal? your whole argumentation bases on that error. thank you for bringing it up again.

but instead of going through this again, I'd much more like answering to adrins post.

the thing about frenzy units is, that they must charge if they have reach. if they do not have reach but they have legal targets, they are allowed to charge, but are not forced. now it is obvious that it is not legal to charge a unit that you know is out of range, and as you measure for frenzy before declaring, you know whether the enemy is in range or not - and whether he is in reach due to interfering terrain/units. that covers points 1&2 from my list.

to point 3/5: the consensus was once, that these items do not have to be used by frenzy units. also obviously here is, that you can only declare the charge here, when the enemy is at max +3" to your regular charge range.

to point 4/5: we agree here that it is an allowed, legal charge, that is not forced to frenzy units. (we could call this a precedent)

to point 5/5: this is a big issue.

fleeing units - they have the chance to rally between the declaration and the actual charge move. snotlings w/o general next to them will probably flee (1:6), the toads with musician and a slann close will probably rally (53:54). your average unit will rally on a 8 (13:18). this smashes even the 'probable' argument methinks. of course there are fleeing units due to failed terror tests (and panik due to animosity...), but I would not separate them. please note that this is not an argument to support my opinion but to undermine the arguments that stand against my opinion.

.

I disagree with your basic premise. You must think a charge will reach for it to be legal. When you can pre-measure you know if the charge will reach or not (baring random things like extra movement), so with a frenzied unit you can not declare a charge that is not in range. A unit that is 10 inchs away when you have move 4 is not a legal target. When you are guessing, you can call this charge if you think it is in. When you MUST measure, you can't call this charge as you then know it is not in.

As such I don't think Frenzied units can declare a charge on a unit that is further than their move away, even if you think they are going to flee into your charge reach. So I'm not conceding point 4/5 as a precedence.

On my probable arguement I was not looking at the chance of rallying.
I don't think the chance of the unit rallying should make any difference. My interpritation of the FAQs is that is the unit that blocks the charge, is known to have a movement to complete between the declaring of the frenzied charge and the movement of the charge, then it is an allowed charge.
And My view of the frenzy rules are that if it is an allowed charge, with reach being there, then the frenzied unit must charge. (basically if they can charge, they must charge)
So for the purposes of working out the allowed, and therefore compulsery Charges of a frenzied unit, you don't consider friendly units which will move before them when checking if a unit is in reach.

nosferatu1001
08-07-2009, 11:43
Frenzied units cannot declare charges normally, they must declare charges if they have reach but are given no exception to just declare if they want to (FAQ, essentially saying you still have to wait for the "frenzy" sub-phase even if you know someone is in reach, meaning they always move last)

I also see one area of confusion - the way you and I use "legal". I was using legal in the part you quoted above to denote a charge that can be declared without being "wrong" from the outset. For example if you can move your pump wagon out of the way it would be a "legal" charge declaration to charge through the space they occupied, assuming you have LOS etc. This is an example where your charge is contingent - it can only happen if other events happen [correctly, for a given value of correct] first.

My point is that, if you have the situation where a non-frenzied unit is allowed to make a charge, even though it requires other events to happen first, it would be a double standard if you did not require frenzied units to declare a charge - if a normal, non-frenzied unit CAN charge successfully a frenzied unit surely must do so?

It then gets tricky when you have variable movement, stupidity etc but surely the same principles should apply - if you can declare a charge with a normal unit that has a % chance of success, the frenzied unit should be compelled to declare a charge as well.

Da GoBBo
08-07-2009, 12:08
That was kind of my point - the example given is of a unit moving out of the way, and this then forcing the frenzied unit to charge.

Why is this a FAQ? This situation is not supported by the ruling in the BRB at all. It should be an errata. Since it not, the whole FAQ should be discarded and GW needs to go back to the drawingtable.

FAQs aren't official anyway. It should be an explanation of the rule, and should thus be there in the rules to begin with. Nothing in the brb hints at this example being correct.

Yes, I did say the same thing twice in one post, silly eh? :)

Milgram
08-07-2009, 12:12
As such I don't think Frenzied units can declare a charge on a unit that is further than their move away, even if you think they are going to flee into your charge reach. So I'm not conceding point 4/5 as a precedence.

you force them to declare charges that are probable while at the same time disalow them charges that are probable. before you said it is 'not a required charge' - but it is a legal charge for any unit - besides frenzy units in your opinion. in the BRB there is no mention of frenzy units not allowed to declare legal charges that they do not have reach on, they are just not forced. and this is one of these cases.

the enemy unit we are talking in 4/5 could be forced to take the charge reaction 'flee' (WLC, fleeing unit).

also... fleeing units with the chance to rally are not known to move during the compulsory movement phase. I fail to see why the movement should be taken into consideration, while others do not.

Adran
08-07-2009, 14:08
I don't have access to the BRB until later, so I'm going to check exactly what it says before I answer all the points. There may be some double standards in my interpretation, but at least they are consistant double standards. (in my mind anyway)

We are dealing with situations here that aren't exactly covered in the rules, so we aren't going to come up with a rule that everyone must follow anyway.
I know the FAQs aren't the official rules, but they can help in situations the offical rules don't cover (such as your fleeing troops in the way of your charge) and help give intent.

And fleeing troops are forced to move between the declare charges and the moving of charges. Its just their "movement" might be a reform move which leaves them in the same place.

nosferatu1001
08-07-2009, 14:20
Frenzied units cannot declare un-forced charges - at all. This is explained in the BRB FAQ that you must must must wait until the frenzy charges subphase, measure, and declare a charge if you have reach. At no point can you voluntarily declare charges before that - the words in the BRB restrict you, the FAQ confirms this.

Finally - I have not denied some charges and allowed others, I have repeatedly stated that, taken to the logical conclusion in the FAQs if you can charge normally (i.e. you have potential reach) frenzied charges, to be consistent, must be declared.

It is a logically consistent position.

Da GoBBo
08-07-2009, 21:02
We are dealing with situations here that aren't exactly covered in the rules, so we aren't going to come up with a rule that everyone must follow anyway.
I know the FAQs aren't the official rules, but they can help in situations the offical rules don't cover (such as your fleeing troops in the way of your charge) and help give intent.

As far as I am concerned this situation is covered by the brb. "you measure to see if anything is in charge reach, if so, you declare a charge" How can this be unclear? How can you think ... well, I can understand think .... debate for 2 pages this might mean a unit in the way can be disregarded because it might move out of the way? There is not the remotest suggestion in the brb this is correct. You measure at a certain phase in the game (after chargedeclaration), if something is in chargereach. Since no exeptions are given, you follow the normal rules for seeing if a unit is within reach. This means you measure around any features you might encounter, including fleeing units, uncluding pump weagons, including more fleeing units, excluding fanatics, which are the only exception (as with all charges) I can think of right now. Yes, you cannot and thus do not have to charge a fanatic with frenziing units, in case you might wonder.


Frenzied units cannot declare un-forced charges - at all. This is explained in the BRB FAQ that you must must must wait until the frenzy charges subphase, measure, and declare a charge if you have reach. At no point can you voluntarily declare charges before that - the words in the BRB restrict you, the FAQ confirms this.

I said it before, i cannot find such a restriction.
BRB: "In the declare charges parts of the movement phase, after the chargers of all non-frenzied troops have been declared...etc."
This means you can't declare a charge along with non-frenzied units? It just means something happens after non-frenzied units have declared their charge. It puts no restriction on frenzied units whatsoever.

And now to play the new monkey island :D

nosferatu1001
08-07-2009, 21:23
?? How can you read the restriction "after the charges of all non-frenzied as not being a restriction?

It's the only time you are given permission to declare charge with Frenzied units. Really, you can never declare a voluntary charge with them. See BRB FAQ part 1 page 3, top right.

As for your first bit - read BRB FAQ part 2, page 2, top left. It states:

Q. Can you declare a charge if the only way the
charge can be completed is if some other
conditional event occurs? For example, are you
allowed to declare a charge to a visible enemy
unit in a situation where the only way you can
complete the charge is if one of your own units
fails its rally test and continues to flee?
A. A very interesting question, and not an easy one
to answer! Yes, we think it’s acceptable to declare a
charge in this kind of situations, and if the
condition does not allow the unit to complete the
charge (the friendly unit in the way does rally, in
the example above), the charge fails.


Therefore if a normal unit can declare a charge based on a conditional event, harge reach must include conditional events occuring. This forces Frenzied units to charge otherwise you have a double standard. It is the only logical conclusion of that FAQ answer. IN addition the answer on page 3, that if a screening unit declares a charge that you must also declare a charge proves your "you measure round things in the way" contention is false.

Da GoBBo
08-07-2009, 22:05
I don't know, I can't see it as an absolute restriction, and would therefor say it is not. For now I'll give you this one, because it serves my purpose for part 2 ;)

As this points out, frenzied units charging is not the same as normal units charging. This FAQ deals with normal units declaring a charge and not with frenzied units being forced. Normal units can declare a charge they cannot complete. Frenzied units cannot do so. The example in the FAQ merely illustrates what is also considered a reasonable charge decleration. Charging a unit 2" in front of you is, charging a unit 24" away is not, charging a unit with a fleeing unit between you and your target is, according to the FAQ, and I agree. It's a gamble that might pay off. We are talking a grey area here. This does not force a frenzied unit that situation to declare a charge however. The frenzied section does not talk about greys, just black and whites. You make it or you don't. That screening unit you talked about declared a charge and will therefor not be there when ye would move the frenzied unit. This is a certainty, black and white, and therefor you are forced to declare a charge, because it will be a 100% certain you will make the charge. As far as I can tell that is a requirement.

BTW, monkey island is awesome (no, I won't spoil the oneliners :D)

nosferatu1001
08-07-2009, 23:32
No, they do not deal with certainties - the screening unit can fail charge and still be in the way (potentially), causing a failed charge on the unit. It also does not say "frenzied charge reach" is different, just that they can only ever declare charges after all other normal charges.


Must. resist. new. monkey. island....

jaxom
08-07-2009, 23:54
...frenzied units charging is not the same as normal units charging.

Ok, I've seen this claim made a couple of times. I have not had a chance to look at the BRB and the FAQ lately so whaat I am after is the pointer to where to go look...

The contention is that Frenzied units cannot declare a charge the way a normal unit could. I know from the FAQ that they *must* declare at a specific time in their turn. I know that they must measure and then if they have a legal charge they must declare that. Where exactly does it state that failing those two conditions they may *not* declare a charge that still has a chance of success? I'm not even going to concern myself with whether or not they must declare such a charge... Let's answer the possible first... Barring a specific prohibition, I don't see any reason a frenzied unit would be barred from declaring a normal charge once they have met their other conditions and my recollction is that BRB FAQ part 1 only specifies a time, nothing else.

Da GoBBo
09-07-2009, 06:45
Where exactly does it state that failing those two conditions they may *not* declare a charge that still has a chance of success?

Apparently "In the declare charges parts of the movement phase, after the chargers of all non-frenzied troops have been declared..." prohibits you from declaring a charge at your own leasure. I don't totally agree, but can't say it's totally wrong either.

Which brings me Nosferatu's claim that certainies do not exist and the brb does not say charge reach is different for frenzied units. I'll start with the later. You are right, reach is the same thing. Reach is the maximum distance a unit can travel, including wheeling. A frenzied unit is forced to declare a charge when an enemy unit is within reach. This means, if the charge will be a succes (you can measure this beforehand) you must declare a charge.
How is this not a certainty? You know for sure your gonna make it, ye just measured it. This is different from normal units, where you can declare a charge if you are not sure you will make it, but have a pretty good idea. All the above quoted FAQ does is give an example if what falls within the vague boundries of having "a pretty good idea". You cannot apply this FAQ to frenzied units because frenzied units do not work with vague boundries. If they do, GW should release an errata.

Adran
09-07-2009, 08:42
Small rule book, page 52

In the declared charges part of the movement phase, after the charges of all non-Frenzied troops have been declared (including relative charge reactions), measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any Frenzied troops (ie, within the units charge move and in their normal arc of sight). If so, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against that enemy. The player has no choice in the matter; the unit will automatically make its charge move. If there are several eligible units within the charge reach of the Frenzied unit, the controlling player may decide which unit to charge


Since it says this happens after all Charges from non frenzied units, I feel the FAQ is a clarification of their wording, and Frenzied units can not declare charges as normal.
It also talks of the player having NO CHOICE in the matter. That is why I do not think you can declare any other charge with a frenzied unit unless it is in Charge reach.
Its rules override the standard declare charges rules.
If it said "after all normal charges are declared..." then I would agree they could declare as normal, but since it states "after all non-frenzied units", the implicationis that the frenzied unit can not declare a charge as normal, it must follow the frenzy rules


As I said, if my opponent choose to not use the FAQ saying you can declare charges through your fleeing troops, I'd play it that way. For everything, not just frenzied units.
If they did that would you allow them to declare charges through their charging troops?
After all, when you measure the charge, the unit is still in the way. They might not be in charge range so fail charge and still be in the way.

There has to be some point at which you as a player draws the line.
The point I chose is the only choice frenzied units get in the declare charges phase is if there is more than one unit in their charge range. Otherwise, either they must charge or must not charge.
And, partially because of the FAQ, I feel that it is reasonable to declare charges that are currently blocked by my units that will be making a move between the time I have declared the charge and the time I move the charge. And as such if there is such a unit blocking the move, but not the line of sight for the frenzied unit, it must declare a charge

Obviously, you have picked a different line to draw in the rules. I'm not sure exactly where your line is, but I can't see one that is more consistant with the rules (granted I'm including the FAQs both as written and intent).

Hope the monkey Island is going well

Milgram
09-07-2009, 10:07
If it said "after all normal charges are declared..." then I would agree they could declare as normal, but since it states "after all non-frenzied units", the implicationis that the frenzied unit can not declare a charge as normal, it must follow the frenzy rules

it's exactly the other way round. you can't declare a normal charge "after all normal charges are declared" but you can declare a normal charge "after all non-frenzied units" have declared their charges. it says nothing about frenzy units not able to declare normal charges. it only says that frenzy units declare all their charges after all charges from non-frenzied units.

Adran
09-07-2009, 11:10
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.
I see the words about not having a choice meaning that if there is a unit in its charge reach, then it must charge. And, so if there isn't a unit in its charge reach then it can't charge. The rules aren't clear on the situation, but the way I read it, this section explains the only way Frenzied units charge. What they do say is after all the non frenzy units have declared charges the frenzied units MUST measure, and if there is something in their charge reeach then they MUST charge. They have no choice on this.

I think the only situation where your view and my view will have different results is if you expect a fleeing unit to come into your charge reach (at least under my view of charging through your own units).
Under different views, there could be different outcomes, which is part of the reason I have my line drawn where it is, it makes things consistant and straight forward in all but that one case.

nosferatu1001
09-07-2009, 11:21
That's also the way I read it: instead of being allowed to charge normally you must follow the following rules. If you don't have a charge in range you no longer have the option to declare a charge normally

Milgram
09-07-2009, 11:51
If you don't have a charge in range you no longer have the option to declare a charge normally

now you are talking about range? :wtf:


your definition of 'reach' is the issue. if declaring a frenzy charge you measure for actual reach at the moment of the declaration, considering only other units that declared a charge. there is no whatsoever rule or faq that would say otherwise. also there is no whatsoever rule or faq denying the frenzy unit to declare a charge at any other legal target that they do not have reach at the moment of their charge declaration - provided they have no target that they would have reach at the moment of their charge declaration.

nosferatu1001
09-07-2009, 13:08
Look, enough. I stopped with the whole reach / range thing as it was getting in the way, so don't be a child. Again.

Given that the FAQ includes contingent events to give you allowance for reach as a reasonable charge, you should include that for frenzied units. If you don't do that then you have a double standard.

finally it dpends whether you read the rule as inclusive or exclusive. I read it as inclusive - it tells you what to do in order for the unt to declare a charge. It gives you no other option to declare a charge, so you can't

Adran
09-07-2009, 13:37
if declaring a frenzy charge you measure for actual reach at the moment of the declaration, considering only other units that declared a charge. there is no whatsoever rule or faq that would say otherwise. also there is no whatsoever rule or faq denying the frenzy unit to declare a charge at any other legal target that they do not have reach at the moment of their charge declaration - provided they have no target that they would have reach at the moment of their charge declaration.

I take the FAQ saying that you can only declare charges that you think are in Reach as a FAQ saying a frenzied unit can not declare a charge at at a unit that is not in its reach.
But then I am also taking the FAQ answer that it is legal to declare a charge through fleeing units meaning that a Frenzied unit MUST declare a charge through fleeing units.

The FAQ question has the following answer that you are using to allow you to declare charges through other fleeing units

If the screening unit is also declaring a charge
(i.e. they intend to get out of the way), then the
frenzied unit behind them can, and indeed must,
declare a charge as well.
The bit in brackets about intending to get out of the way I think includes all units that can get out of the way.

later in the answer it goes against the rules in the BRB which doesn't help us much when trying to work out rules from it

From your interpretation what would you do about a fleeing unit below 25% between the frenzied unit and the unit it intends to charge. They also intend to get out of the way.
Or pump wagons in the way. Afteall they aren't declaring a charge, but they do intend to get out of the way in a very similar manner to the charging screening unit.

I guess we have found the point at which the two sides disagree.
1 side thinks you can only declare Frenzy charges that are forced, and one side thinks you can declare normal charges with them.
Because I'm in camp one, I have a different view as to what are forced charges, and what are allowed charges.

I understand your points, but I don't think the rule book supports you, I think the charge rules under frenzy are the only way frenzied units can charge, because they have special rules, and there is nothing in the text suggesting that they can also use the normal rules as well as their special rules. Where as you see there being nothing in the rules saying they can't use the normal rules as well as their special rules.

I see the rules as basically saying if your frenzied unit can reach (including conditional modifiers as already said), it must charge.

Milgram
09-07-2009, 14:11
Look, enough. I stopped with the whole reach / range thing as it was getting in the way, so don't be a child. Again.

*yawn*

again.


The bit in brackets about intending to get out of the way I think includes all units that can get out of the way.

ok, so a fleeing unit or a unit with compulsory movement intends to get out of the way?

'i.e.' (id est) is an absolute term. it does give you a complete list of what is meant. 'e.g.' (exempli gratia) would give you an example. so this is proven wrong twice.



From your interpretation what would you do about a fleeing unit below 25% between the frenzied unit and the unit it intends to charge. They also intend to get out of the way.
Or pump wagons in the way. Afteall they aren't declaring a charge, but they do intend to get out of the way in a very similar manner to the charging screening unit.

see above... intention is willingly. fleeing units and units that are bound to a compulsory move are not acting intentionally.



I think the charge rules under frenzy are the only way frenzied units can charge, because they have special rules, and there is nothing in the text suggesting that they can also use the normal rules as well as their special rules.


but there is also nothing that prohibits them for using the normal rules. so if nothing prohibits the normal rules, you can use them. it is af if you were claiming that frenzy units cannot march as the rules nowhere suggest that they can.

nosferatu1001
09-07-2009, 14:28
Ah, so the frenzy rules being inclusive, telling you exactly how frenzied units declare charges and giving you no other alternative, doesn't make a difference?

Again.

Nice attempt at an analogy, however it is a false one: the general rules tell you how to march, and frenzy does not give you an inclusive set of rules describing otherwise.

Adran
09-07-2009, 14:49
If the answer was written if the screening unit intends to get out of the way would you allow it.
The Screening unit intends to no longer be in its current place and move elsewhere. They aren't moving especially to get out of the way of the charging unit.
A fleeing unit intends to move from its current location.
But I can see how you mean intent as a non compulsery move.


it is af if you were claiming that frenzy units cannot march as the rules nowhere suggest that they can.

Thats a really poor example, as it is nothing like what I am trying to claim. It is more as if I was claiming a unit that flies can not also walk that turn. The special rule effects the units actions in that particular phase.
The frenzy rule speaks about the unit having no choice.
It does impose limits on what a frenzied unit can do in the declare charges phase and it is not the same as a normal unit. It can't declare a charge before a non frenzied unit. It must then measure to see what possible charges it has. If it has a possible unit to charge it must charge. It doesn't then say well if there is a unit that you can't charge at the moment, but depending on various things you might be able to charge, you get to decide what you want to do with them. Everything else about frenzy is compulsery, why should they alone get this extra freedom of having measured and then deciding if they want to charge?
I find it very hard to justify a unit that must charge if it can calmly sitting and discussing if they think something is going to get out of the way before going into a berserk fury. Which is how your interpretation of the rules goes.

Milgram
09-07-2009, 15:49
The frenzy rule speaks about the unit having no choice.


the frenzy rule speaks about the unit having no choice when they have reach at the moment of the declaration. it does not say jack about what happens when they have no reach at the moment of declaration.

as for the 'hard to justify' part: there might be a regular unit infront of them that uses their regular movement in the remaining movements phase to move out of the way. do YOU find it hard to justify that a unit that must charge if it can, calmly sits there and waits for another unit that intends to move out of the way because some 'divine' barrier hinders them from charging after the remainig movement phase.

yes, of course that example is 100% covered by the rules and no one will ever argue about frenzy units and remainig movements, but when you are coming up with a fluff argument - so do I.

nosferatu1001
09-07-2009, 16:26
The rules are inclusive - they give you no option to declare a non-reach charge, so you cannot voluntarily declare a charge with them, the only choice you get is which target if there is more than one.

Da GoBBo
09-07-2009, 17:12
But then I am also taking the FAQ answer that it is legal to declare a charge through fleeing units meaning that a Frenzied unit MUST declare a charge through fleeing units.

At the moment I don't have time to thoroughly (?) read the rest of the post, but I do want to react (again :)) to this.

Yes, it is legal to declare a charge through a fleeing unit, but you have to look at the reason behind that. When declaring a charge with a normal unit, you can declare a charge which is reasonable. A normal unit does not have to be in reach in order to declare a charge, just reasonably within. Hoping for a fleeing unit to get out of the way is, apparently, reasonable. I ask you, how can you apply this to a frenzied unit, where there is no such thing as a reasonable charge, but only in or out of reach?

Your line of reasoning is indeed in line with your ruling btw. You asked me before where I draw my line. Applying this FAQ to frenzied units is just past it. I would force a frenzied unit to charge when a charging unit was in the way though. It might not be as consistent as your ruling, but I do think it's in the spirit of the game.

jaxom
09-07-2009, 18:33
The rules are inclusive - they give you no option to declare a non-reach charge, so you cannot voluntarily declare a charge with them, the only choice you get is which target if there is more than one.

Since when are GW rule extensions ever inclusive? I gotta agree with Milgram here and he expressed it pretty well last page... I mean, if the Frenzy rules said "A Frenzied unit does not use normal Charge rules" then I would give you this argument hands down. They don't. They never have.

nosferatu1001
09-07-2009, 23:37
...except they only give you 1 option: after all non-frenzied charges have been declared you do the "frenzy" chargers bit. Nothing in that gives you the option to declare a normal charge.

The extensions are quite often inclusive: to take 2 40k examples: Ork Big Bomm and the Eldritch storm. Both give fully inclusive rules on how they operate that override the normal blast scatter rules.

jaxom
09-07-2009, 23:47
Far from giving you only one option, I believe that the BRB explicitly states that this is still in the Declare Charges portion of the movement phase. It is defined as being after all non-frenzied units but if it is still part of Declare Charges the point that Milgrim and I are both making is that there is no text which precludes normal charge options from being available. There is a requirement that precludes *not* charging, sure.

I'm not a 40k player. I'll go take a gander at those codecies this weekend and see if they explicitly state that they are inclusive. Frenzy certainly never states explicitly that it is inclusive and I cannot think of any WFB examples where FAQ or concensus is an implied inclusive interpretation. (May be wrong though, just not coming up with them offhand.)

Adran
10-07-2009, 07:51
I think The rules for Frenzy when read with the rules for declaring charges do prove it is an inclusive rule
The rules for declaring a charge include the following

When you declare a charge you must do so without measuring. You must rely upon you estimation that the charge is in reach.

So I see the declare charge phase as
1 you declare any charges. You can't measure at this point.
2 your opponent makes his charge responses.

Now the frenzy special rule comes into effect. Since it says "after all non frenzied units have declared their charge and the opponent declares charge responses" (from memory, posted exact wording earlier) It is not possible to have declared a charge with a frenzied unit before this point. Then it tells you to measure.
Once you have measured you can no longer declare any normal charges. So the only charges that a frenzy unit can make are those that are in its charge reach.
I don't see any other permission in the frenzy rules to break the declare charges rules other than those charges it must make.

That is how I understand the rules.

Da Gobbo, I can understand your line on the charges. It does make sense. But, with my understanding of the frenzy rules, they then could not declare the charge at all. And as long as that was consistant, I'd be happy to play using that line if my opponent prefered it to mine.