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zeekill
01-07-2009, 04:50
Ok Im bamboosled, for lack of a better word. I just dont know what army will fit my needs the best. So im going to split everything into categories and rate each catergory, and then, if you were to be so kind, you will tell me what army will best suit me. I'd like to apologize in advance if Im really asking for too much and there isnt many things that suit my needs. (Funny thing, the people at my GWS say Im not going to be happy until I have a core unit for 10 pts apiece that Flies, is WS 10, STR 10, Toughness 10, Initiatve 10, has 5 wounds each, has 4 attacks with killing blow on a 3+, is Ld 11 and rerolls failed Psychology tests twice, Causes terror, has Chaos Armor and Shields, with a 2+ Ward and Regeneration, has magical attacks, ignores all ward saves, and is immune to all magical effects.)

Here's how it works. Im rating everything from 0 to 5.
0 - I dont want this
1 - I dont care whether it has this or not at all
2 - If it has it great, if not, who cares.
3 - I would like it but if it doesnt have it I can get by.
4 - I really want to have it, but if it has tons of other stuff i want it can be overlooked
5 - If it doesnt have this I wouldnt play this army if you paid me to.
__________________________________________________ __________________

ARMY LIST
Variety in Units/Unit types - 4
Has both things that Crush and things that are dirt cheap - 4
Can field many units, outnumbers - 4
Ability to get the flank through having more units to field - 4
Minimum leadership (except tarpits, cheap units, etc) is eight - 5

MOVEMENT
Minimum movement characteristic is four - 5 (This means no Dwarfs)
Ability to outmaneuver due to Movement characteristic - 2.5

MAGIC
Has access to a good offensive (like lore of fire) or supportive (things that help movement, defense, etc) lore - 4
Has average magic defense capabilities - 4
Has access to a range of bound spells - 3

SHOOTING
Has shooting - 2
If has shooting, has good shooting - 3
Army is shooting-based (gunline) - 0
Has war machines - 3

COMBAT
Has things that are good tar pits - 3
Has things that will rip you to pieces - 4
Minimum toughness is four for the most part - 5
Has access to a good Save - 3.5
Will outnumber you more times than not - 3

TACTICS
Has fast Calvary to redirect - 3
Can run up and punch you in the face, all frontal charges and rip you apart - 2
_______________________________________
I will put more things as I think of them. If I do they will be posted below here.

Griffery
01-07-2009, 06:59
Hmm this is tough but I might suggest Tomb Kings. You also might like Lizardmen. I don't know everything about every army but I think you might like these two.

kardar233
01-07-2009, 07:24
I'd add Warriors into the pot; while they don't have shooting, they have some nice offensive and utility Lores, have good-quality Fast Cavalry, can have lots of cheap stuff or some heavy stuff, light infantry outnumber and tarpits well, heavy infantry rips your face off.

I'd directly compare them with Lizards; they have better light infantry, light cavalry and heavy cavalry, but Lizards have more beasties, a bit more magic, better Heroes, and reasonable shooting for taking down enemy monsters.

Lizardmen are more tactically flexible, but Warriors do what they do really well.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 13:14
Lizards have shooting? What you mean those little blowpipes? Unless I'm missing somthing that doesnt really count as real shooting... either way if I were to play lizardmen I would play combat lizards and then be depriving myself of my lust for the magic phase. Maybe as my army after this one but not now

Keller
01-07-2009, 13:20
Dogs of War!

You can design an army with loads of vanilla soldiers in order to maximize numbers, or you can go for regiments of renown for some special abilities and stronger units.

As for play style, they can go cavalry heavy, ranked infantry, shooting, skirmish-heavy, monsterous-infantry heavy, or anywhere in between.

Please note, however, that DoW has not had a real book since 5th ed, with a nice update for 6th, and not much on the horizon for 7th.


Another option would be Ogre Kingdoms.
Pro's:
Powerful troops & cheap Gnoblars which won't cause panic.
Excellent movement
Great flankers in M6 ogres, M7 yheties.
Great magic lore.
Tyrants are among most powerful combat characters in the game.

Cons:
Only 1 lore can be used.
Lower model count army (except for gnoblars)
Atypical shooting style.
Lack of armor across the board, but high Toughness.
Limit on mages.
Lack of vast variety of models. (Just ogres w/ different weapons and gnoblars, + gorgers, yhetees & rhinox)

Troah
01-07-2009, 13:50
Bretonnia, Lizardmen, or some Elven army is my recommendation.


Lizards have shooting? What you mean those little blowpipes? Unless I'm missing somthing that doesnt really count as real shooting... either way if I were to play lizardmen I would play combat lizards and then be depriving myself of my lust for the magic phase. Maybe as my army after this one but not now


Lizardmen have Blowpipes, Razordon/Salamanders both have 12" range I believe it was, Giant Blowpipes on Ancient Steggadons and a Steggadon mounted Bolt thrower.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 14:55
Dogs of War!

You can design an army with loads of vanilla soldiers in order to maximize numbers, or you can go for regiments of renown for some special abilities and stronger units.

As for play style, they can go cavalry heavy, ranked infantry, shooting, skirmish-heavy, monsterous-infantry heavy, or anywhere in between.

Please note, however, that DoW has not had a real book since 5th ed, with a nice update for 6th, and not much on the horizon for 7th.


Another option would be Ogre Kingdoms.
Pro's:
Powerful troops & cheap Gnoblars which won't cause panic.
Excellent movement
Great flankers in M6 ogres, M7 yheties.
Great magic lore.
Tyrants are among most powerful combat characters in the game.

Cons:
Only 1 lore can be used.
Lower model count army (except for gnoblars)
Atypical shooting style.
Lack of armor across the board, but high Toughness.
Limit on mages.
Lack of vast variety of models. (Just ogres w/ different weapons and gnoblars, + gorgers, yhetees & rhinox)

I dont enjoy the look and feel of Ogres, idk why i just dont really. Also higher Ld is a must, Im changing that to a five
Dogs of war.... ummm sorry, but for lack of a better response, wth? Theyre like the 40k dwarf army. Outdated and no one plays them.

Hulkster
01-07-2009, 15:01
From what you have picked you want Warriors of Chaos

in fact I cannot think of another army that fits what you want better

they have a lot of T4 troops, can murfder people in CC with Chosen and Knights, Have good leadership, have excellent magic, have excellent combat characters.

The only other one really is Orcs and Goblins, simelar to the above but you can field lots more units, they just dont hit as hard

both work in your tactics as well

Keller
01-07-2009, 15:26
I dont enjoy the look and feel of Ogres, idk why i just dont really. Also higher Ld is a must, Im changing that to a five
Dogs of war.... ummm sorry, but for lack of a better response, wth? Theyre like the 40k dwarf army. Outdated and no one plays them.

I understand about the Ogres; they are the ugly cousin of the warhammer armies. As for DoW, you did ask for suggestions. They are still playable, even if out of date (which I even mentioned.) Just because they are not mainstream doesn't mean they suck all together (though are certainly not one of the powerhouse armies.)

Just throwing it out there; I find these to be fun armies to play w/ or against. Feel free to pick something else.

gorenut
01-07-2009, 16:50
Aside from the already mentioned Lizards and Chaos Warriors.. you might also consider Vampire Counts. While they don't have traditionally tough core troops in the form of high toughness, they still win on the war of attrition due to you being able to replenish your troops. So its magically-augmented toughness I suppose. Their elites on the other hand.. come with chockfull of toughness 4 in the form of Wights and Vampire Knights. They strike me as the army with extremely hoardy units that support really killy models.. kinda get both. Not to mention, they got awesome characters to boot. The only thing they really lack is shooting.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 16:53
I understand about the Ogres; they are the ugly cousin of the warhammer armies. As for DoW, you did ask for suggestions. They are still playable, even if out of date (which I even mentioned.) Just because they are not mainstream doesn't mean they suck all together (though are certainly not one of the powerhouse armies.)

Just throwing it out there; I find these to be fun armies to play w/ or against. Feel free to pick something else.

Yea I understand, thanks anyway

zeekill
01-07-2009, 16:54
Aside from the already mentioned Lizards and Chaos Warriors.. you might also consider Vampire Counts. While they don't have traditionally tough core troops in the form of high toughness, they still win on the war of attrition due to you being able to replenish your troops. So its magically-augmented toughness I suppose. Their elites on the other hand.. come with chockfull of toughness 4 in the form of Wights and Vampire Knights. They strike me as the army with extremely hoardy units that support really killy models.. kinda get both. Not to mention, they got awesome characters to boot. The only thing they really lack is shooting.

Lol i already play counts im looking for a second army, I should have put that in at the top.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 16:57
Ok we are now narrowing it down to Lisardmen VS Warriors of Chaos can anyone list the pros and cons of one over the other or both?

forthegloryofkazadekrund
01-07-2009, 17:01
I would say Lizardmen or Dark Elves, both good armies and good for magical play and combat (Saurus/corsairs)

also there are good deals on Ebay at the moment for both armies, just type in Lizardmen/Dark Elf army

IkuTurso
01-07-2009, 17:02
A quick look thorugh the numbers I would suggest WoC infantry army with heavy tzeentch/nurgle magic with warriors/marauders/warshrine/knights and a hellcannon if you want shooting. The drawback being youre only going to outnumber with your marauder footsoldiers, and even them unlikely.

Another thing you could like is TVI empire army. Dont know if you've heard of it but its basically a heavy-infantry empire army that focuses on masses of infantry and detachment rule. I think Its mostly infantry with a few knight units and infantry supporting characters and 2 cannons. so low shooting high infantry, but, no magic.
You can read more here: http://www.warhammer-empire.com/warroom/tvi_tactica1.php

IkuTurso
01-07-2009, 17:31
WoC
Pros:
-exellent magic casters
-good but expensive infantry, also marauders that are crappy but dirt cheap.
-light cavalry that are immune to panic and best heavy cavalry unit in game
-awesome models,fun fluff,lots of painting and conversion possibilities
-different approaches, ranging from super magic heavy to no magic melee carnage armies. also you can choose between all mounted or all infantry.

Cons:
-Close to no shooting
-Khorne has no dispel dice anymore
-almost all units are expensive, some are even too expensive (warriors and deamon prince for example are way beyond me)


Lizards I dont play but I imagine they are actually pretty similar in the end, with the slann being the magic powerhouse. They are just the good guys and chaos are the evul ones.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 17:37
WoC
Pros:
-exellent magic casters
-good but expensive infantry, also marauders that are crappy but dirt cheap.
-light cavalry that are immune to panic and best heavy cavalry unit in game
-awesome models,fun fluff,lots of painting and conversion possibilities
-different approaches, ranging from super magic heavy to no magic melee carnage armies. also you can choose between all mounted or all infantry.

Cons:
-Close to no shooting
-Khorne has no dispel dice anymore
-almost all units are expensive, some are even too expensive (warriors and deamon prince for example are way beyond me)


Lizards I dont play but I imagine they are actually pretty similar in the end, with the slann being the magic powerhouse. They are just the good guys and chaos are the evul ones.

Sorry, but blood knights will take their hearts and feed it back to them.

minionboy
01-07-2009, 18:13
So far you seem unhappy with anyone's responses. Instead of tearing them apart, try to listen to what they are saying.

If you want an army with strong shooting and a minimum of T4 and Ld8, then your only option is Dwarfs.

Since you've said you wont play Dwarfs and you need LD8, T4, M4, then the only option left is Lizardmen. They can have decent shooting with skinks, razordons and stegadons, good magic if you want, plus a majority of their troops are T4 Ld8 and M4.

But they don't have the fast cavalry... Which basically leaves one option. Empire. They're not T4, but they meet the rest of your requirements and have the variety available to them to do any style army you choose.

minionboy
01-07-2009, 18:17
Sorry, but blood knights will take their hearts and feed it back to them.

Blood Knights are a somewhat rare case, and frankly with frenzy, they're easy enough to control and redirect.

Between Lizardmen and Warriors of Chaos, I'd have to pick Lizardmen, and I play WoC myself!

With what you required from your list above, you would like an army that has the option to shoot, without being a shooting line army. Aside from throwing spears and the occasional hellcannon, Chaos completely lacks shooting.

N810
01-07-2009, 18:23
So far you seem unhappy with anyone's responses. Instead of tearing them apart, try to listen to what they are saying.

If you want an army with strong shooting and a minimum of T4 and Ld8, then your only option is Dwarfs.

Since you've said you wont play Dwarfs and you need LD8, T4, M4, then the only option left is Lizardmen. They can have decent shooting with skinks, razordons and stegadons, good magic if you want, plus a majority of their troops are T4 Ld8 and M4.

But they don't have the fast cavalry... Which basically leaves one option. Empire. They're not T4, but they meet the rest of your requirements and have the variety available to them to do any style army you choose.


It's not entirely true,
I't just that our fast calvery can fly and drop rocks... (terradons)

while Lizies lack much long range shooting, we do have abundant cheep poisoned shortrange shooting.
lizardmen have very unorthodox warmachine like units, that don't have the usual warmachine restrictions.
also Im my experience Saurus wariors are just as hard as chaos wariors.

Da GoBBo
01-07-2009, 18:28
He said that if the army has shooting, it should be good.

I would say orcs and goblins if it wasn't for the leadership.

Lizardmen and warriors (ld. 8?) are on par on you 5's but I think warriors serve you better on the 4 department because their "cheap" stuff is tough as well and they have tarpits. Lizerds might have better magic defense I think. This is less important though. No defense does ye any good versus the really heavy stuff and any army can have a good defense versus normal magic armies.

Troah
01-07-2009, 18:31
Lizardmen leadership is 6 to 8 mainly, but you get three dice (discard the highest) for any leadership tests.

N810
01-07-2009, 18:33
Lizardmen leadership is 6 to 8 mainly, but you get three dice (discard the highest) for any leadership tests.

this makes it something like +1ld better that normal in the 6-8 range

Da GoBBo
01-07-2009, 18:36
Holy crap, how could I forget. ... I played my second through tentht game versus that army. ... :) They still had that rediculus wardsave back than "What, both your steg and all skinks made their save versus my doomdiver? Even the shaman?" ouch

zeekill
01-07-2009, 18:46
So far you seem unhappy with anyone's responses. Instead of tearing them apart, try to listen to what they are saying.

If you want an army with strong shooting and a minimum of T4 and Ld8, then your only option is Dwarfs.

Since you've said you wont play Dwarfs and you need LD8, T4, M4, then the only option left is Lizardmen. They can have decent shooting with skinks, razordons and stegadons, good magic if you want, plus a majority of their troops are T4 Ld8 and M4.

But they don't have the fast cavalry... Which basically leaves one option. Empire. They're not T4, but they meet the rest of your requirements and have the variety available to them to do any style army you choose.
I dont see why everyone thinks I want really good shooting, I rated the shooting category less than any other category.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 18:50
And by "if the army has shooting I want it to be good" i mean things like O&G, which have many shooting options but suck at it. On the other hand, chaos only has throwing weapons and throwing axes, I dont count that when I say shooting needs to be good, as it is not a vital part in the chaos warrior strategy/tactics in any way, the closest thing i can compare it to is an 'Easter egg' in a video game.

Hulkster
01-07-2009, 18:59
considering everything you said you want Warriors of chaos

for the pros and cons already listed

zeekill
01-07-2009, 19:32
Im reeeeeeeally stuck between warriors of Chaos and Lizardmen... They both seem really good only Warriors go right for you while Lizards have flanking power and such. HEEELP... lol

Da GoBBo
01-07-2009, 19:34
warriors have flanking power in the form of fast cav. You can also play with 2 flanks no center.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 20:11
warriors have flanking power in the form of fast cav. You can also play with 2 flanks no center.

But fast Calv dies, like, it reeeeaaaaly dies. I want things that can hit you in the flank and stay there

Troah
01-07-2009, 20:22
Lizardmen are very versicle. They can make many different types of armies and are pretty balanced. Plus they have dinosaurs, you can't go wrong with that.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 20:23
Lizardmen are very versicle. They can make many different types of armies and are pretty balanced. Plus they have dinosaurs, you can't go wrong with that.

Yea really what are you really gonna do when you have Barney chasing your a**

Troah
01-07-2009, 20:27
But fast Calv dies, like, it reeeeaaaaly dies. I want things that can hit you in the flank and stay there

Lizardmen also have Cold One Cavalry that can flank nicely and live.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 20:33
Lizardmen also have Cold One Cavalry that can flank nicely and live.

That's my point. My problem is do i want versatility and tactics or do I want raw power? I cant make a final decision right now but Im thinking more towards Lizards. The dividing line is at about 65% Lizards to 35% Chaos Warriors

Troah
01-07-2009, 20:38
Lizardmen can go raw power, however Chaos Warriors can probably do it better. Yet Lizardmen still have that higher versatility level that warriors cannot achieve. Plus Lizardmen have some of the best cost effective core units.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 20:42
Right. Clearly you know alot about Lizards could you run through what are the diffrent shooting they have?

Example -
Goblin Archers - BS 3, STR 3 Shortbows, 18" Range

Troah
01-07-2009, 20:55
Right. Clearly you know alot about Lizards could you run through what are the diffrent shooting they have?



Blowpipes - 12" range, Strength 3, 2x multiple shots that are poisoned.
Normal Skink Skirmishers (core) have BS3 with Blowpipes that can be exchanged for Javelins & shields.

Chameleon Skins, your special scouts, have BS4 with blowpipes.

Stegadons come with a "Giant Bow" attacked to it. 36" range, Strength, 5 D3 damage, Poisoned attacks and it penetrates ranks.

Ancient Stegadons come with two "Giant Blowpipes" 12" range, Strength 3, 1 damage, Poisoned, and each has 2D6 shots.

Salamanders are your rare that shoot flame-like-acid on enemies making them need to pass a panic test if you cause any wounds. Artillery dice range with flame template. Strength 3, -3 save, Flaming attack. They cannot stand-and-shoot sadly. Also causes fear.

Razordon the newest and my personal favorite are like Salamanders. They shoot barbed thorns at enemies dealing Strength 4 hits at 12" range. They roll Artillery dice to see how many shots are fired with their BS3. They can stand-and-shoot and if they do, they use 2 artillery dice instead of the normal one. Also causes fear and there is no penalties for moving, shooting at long range, firing multiple shots, or making a stand-and-shoot charge reaction.

There is also a magic staff for 35 points that is treated as a shortbow with 3x multi shot at Strength 5.


P.S. By the way, ignore my sig win/lose ratio. I play To-The-Death matches and I'm just a horrible player but my knowledge of the army is not my weakness. So have confidence in what I say. :D

zeekill
01-07-2009, 20:58
Are the razordons and salamanders in units of multiple or are they alone?

Troah
01-07-2009, 21:01
They come in units of 1-3 with 3-4 Skink handlers per Razzie/Sallie. They're also cheap point wise.

shadowskale
01-07-2009, 21:01
Its really just down to you from here Mr-penguin.
WOC are all out smack you in the face. where as lizarmen are balanced. bit of shooting bit of close combat. so really make up your own mind, you dont post on a forum to pick witch character you want in a fighting game. you pick Nightmare if you want to smash someones face in, or Algol for a mix. (Random SC4 Ref there xD)

Troah
01-07-2009, 21:02
Witch = "I'll get you my pretty"
Which = What you should have put.

and I understand what he's doing. He's just trying to find what army will fit him perfectly. This can be an intense choice at times.

zeekill
01-07-2009, 21:12
Yea thanks everyone Im going with Lizards then.

shadowskale
01-07-2009, 21:12
and I understand what he's doing. He's just trying to find what army will fit him perfectly. This can be an intense choice at times.

Not really. what figures you like should be the first question you ask yourself.
If you want to win then just build an uber :cheese: list of doom.

Troah
01-07-2009, 21:16
Not really. what figures you like should be the first question you ask yourself.
If you want to win then just build an uber :cheese: list of doom.

Mmmmm does Lizarmen have one of these "Uber lists of doom"?

zeekill
01-07-2009, 21:42
I dont just want to win, I want an army that will interest me and that will help me learn and use tactics to win. If i just wanted to win I would be playing Deamons... duh

Troah
01-07-2009, 21:48
I dont just want to win, I want an army that will interest me and that will help me learn and use tactics to win. If i just wanted to win I would be playing Deamons... duh

Lol auto-win with Demons only work if you're not horrible at the game. I tried them about two weeks ago and lost pretty bad. :D

Hulkster
01-07-2009, 22:34
What is all this nonsense about WoC not flanking

knights flank wonderfully and they do not suffer from stupidity

i am glad you made your choice though, enjoy lizards

shadowskale
01-07-2009, 22:53
Lol auto-win with Demons only work if you're not horrible at the game.

Deamons... duh

Daemons NOT demons/deamons....that does annoy me.


Mmmmm does Lizarmen have one of these "Uber lists of doom"?

Yes they do. its called 3stegadons with engine of the gods.

xpo50
07-07-2009, 02:07
Im reeeeeeeally stuck between warriors of Chaos and Lizardmen... They both seem really good only Warriors go right for you while Lizards have flanking power and such. HEEELP... lol

Well look at it this way, since you are stuck, look at what each army represents.
Lizardmen are the first race the Old Ones created, they are commissioned with protecting their world from evil (skaven for the most part). They are protectors.

Chaos Warriors are the opposite, they are obviously chaotic, seeking to destroy the plan of the Old Ones, and basically kill everything.

So in then end with similar armies I think you have to look at which mission suits you better, so you want to go on a kiling rampage with Chaos, or do you want to fight against the people who want to kill everything?

Also, which army do you think looks better?

I would choose Lizardmen if I were you because I think they have more interesting units which you ranked fairly high.

zeekill
11-07-2009, 15:30
Daemons NOT demons/deamons....that does annoy me.

Thats wierd i usually spell it right i might have just typo-ed