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Awilla the Hun
01-07-2009, 16:21
Because I played it (admittedly with a very limited budget, poor painting skills, and enormous ineptitude), and lost frequently.

Then again, I actually used Thousand Sons, and had no idea about how to make a good army.

badguyshaveallthefun
01-07-2009, 16:27
It was too easy to make characters that were OTT. Infiltrating DP's with Daemonic Speed was one of the popular ones that people complained about, it was just too easy to get a first turn charge with so many things. That and characters could be made to be both uber killy and super survivable.

Vepr
01-07-2009, 16:35
With the old consolidation rules it was ugly. I remember having the same reaction to that dex as I did some of the previous stuff from some of the 2nd edition armies. "There is no way they play tested this..."

Bunnahabhain
01-07-2009, 16:54
The overpowered charcters, and some of the ways to warp the FOC. 4 heavy slots, and elite obliterators was just the tip of the iceberg of that mess.

It wasn't that the most of the book was overpowered, or that basic units are too cheap
(unlike 6pt boys...) but that it could be abused very easily.

DoomedFuture
01-07-2009, 16:58
I feel it was broken at that time. In the context of the newer codexes it would be fine, with a few exceptions. Infiltrating princes were one.

sianedlife
01-07-2009, 17:05
Iron Warriors could field 9 oblits. 9 lascannons are not nice

And i played thousand sons since the last codex :)

DoomedFuture
01-07-2009, 17:13
9 Lascannons. Broken? 9 Leman Russes? How many dark lances in a Dark Eldar army?

Znail
01-07-2009, 17:14
The big hint that it was on the broken end of the scale would be amount of whine from CSM players when the new codex arrived and that one is still counted as one of the top codex even now!

Zingbaby
01-07-2009, 17:15
If anything was 'overpowered' it was the Iron Warriors list. But today we have bigger and badder things to worry about.

Havarel
01-07-2009, 17:17
The big hint that it was on the broken end of the scale would be amount of whine from CSM players when the new codex arrived and that one is still counted as one of the top codex even now!

At least half if not most of the complaints are more to do with the complete strip of any kind of flavour, options and general soul from the codex.

Illiterate Scribe
01-07-2009, 17:22
Emperor's Children Chosen Terminator Aspiring Champions with Doom Sirens and Power Fists, running the world with their torrent of capital letters and always strike first S8 attacks.

Ridiculous daemonbomb Word Bearers on bikes, who heralded a terrifying and sudden 'bam, there it is' of ~40 daemons in your deployment zone.

the1stpip
01-07-2009, 17:40
At least half if not most of the complaints are more to do with the complete strip of any kind of flavour, options and general soul from the codex.

Here, here.

At least there was some flavour and variety back then. Now, if you don't run twin lashes, Plague marines and Oblits, you're just not doing it right.

DoomedFuture
01-07-2009, 17:51
Is this crap going to get trotted out every time anyone mentions how broken the IW list was? 9 Leman Russes costs 1350pts. It's not really feasible below 2k. They're also run in squadrons which means a 4 on the damage chart = dead tank. Dark Eldar do have tons of Dark Lances, and they're probably undercosted - but Dark Eldar also have T3 5+ save troops carrying those lances riding about in open-topped AV10 vehicles. It's absurd to try and compare the two on the basis of LOL BUT DE HAS LOTS OF DARK LANCEZZZ.

Yes, yes it is. (well, the Dark Eldar part) Sure Russes cost a lot, I'll conced that as incomparable. How about 9 of the other stuff? 9 Armoured Sentinels w/lascannons (630 points), and not heavy support.

Awilla the Hun
01-07-2009, 18:11
It is so very hard to take out 9 armour value 12 vehicles with the same immobilising thing...
-
Anyway, it seems like Chaos back then had many equally overpowered builds. And my army.

Golden Chaos Space Marines=bad.

DhaosAndy
01-07-2009, 18:12
Basically it had 5 problem areas

1/ Siren

2/ IW 4 + 9 (usualy with DP + min/max las/plas)

3/ Full on daemon bomb (3 x bikers + 6 x Daemon units [usualy daemonettes])

4/ All infiltrating armies

5/ Siren bomb (Lord with siren on bike, Lieutenant with siren on bike + daemons, las/plas, oblits & HS according too taste

There is this myth that it was possible to make a fast, ultra killy, extremely hard to kill DP/Lord, no such creature existed. Yes, if you read the list of options it seems possible, but when you actually do the maths, you can't have a DP/Lord that is fast, hard to kill and able to deal out huge amounts of damage, without using siren. In practice you had to reduce kill power to increase surviability. Simply removing siren would have cured all the problems with do everything Lords/DP's since that was what they depended on to boost their survivablity without detracting from their killing power and speed.

Anyway point by point;

1/ Siren - broken beyond belief, should never have got past QC
2/ IW 4 + 9 - broken, though it would be much less powerful in 5th Ed, since it was woefully short on troops.
3/ Full on daemon bomb, broken and would still be broken, very difficult to defend against.
4/ All infiltrating armies, not so broken at the time, now would be very broken.
5/ Siren bomb, the most broken of all, probably the only hope for the defender would be both characters failing to roll siren or an unfeasible number of failed psychic tests, made runes of warding a must take.

All of the above needed fixing, I'm glad that they where removed. That in no way excuses the souless wretched document we have now.

CEO Kasen
01-07-2009, 18:12
To give you an example, I had constructed a Slaaneshi Demon Prince who, if I recall correctly, could have up to S8, 7 attacks, and could strike at initiative 6, and wasn't even a Monstrous Creature. The bastard had very nearly the close combat striking power of three Dreadnoughts for approximately the cost of one kitted out, and he could hide really easily among his men.

But that said... The armies you got out of it were more frequently bizarre and unpredicable. Chaotic, if you will. This new codex, sure, it's more balanced, but it feels so much less in the spirit of the whole thing.

sigur
01-07-2009, 18:15
Gee, don't rip it out of the context and try to justify the mess that this codex was by comparing it to the latest codices.

The chaos codex was a mess. There were things that were overpowered (as mentioned above), there were things that sucked and above all, it was the epidome of wargear mess-ups which made it immensely inaccessible for newbies. I think this was the main problem GW found with this codex.

Lord Damocles
01-07-2009, 18:24
How long until this thread is locked?
Cast yer' bets!


The main problems with the 3.5 Chaos list were that:

The demonic gifts, weapons, and wargear could easily be combined to give massive advantages for loltastic disadvantages (including stupidly low cost) - this led to Aspiring Champions who could duel down other races HQs and Daemon Princes who could chew through whole squads a turn with nothing the Chaos player's opponant could do about it.

The Legion Lists handed out veteran skills and FOC changes left right and center. This led to multiple overpowered combos such as the Alpha Legion infiltrating speed Lord with a pretty much garanteed first turn charge or the Iron warriors gunline with 4 pie plates and 9 obliterators.
At the other end of the scale you had World eaters chasing Land Speeders.

There were just so many overpowered builds! As well as the above iron warriors gunline and Alpha Legion speed Lord list, there was the Daemon-bomb build, the Siren Prince build, the mass infiltrating tank hunting Autocannon Havoc list etc. etc...

And worst of all, the 3.5 codex encouraged Chaos players to view the Legions as 2D cardboard cut-out forces which could only ever be represented using masses of special rules and veteran skills. This has had the greatest lasting impact on the community it seems, and lies behind many of these threads getting locked.

philbrad2
01-07-2009, 18:27
How long until this thread is locked?
Cast yer' bets!

All bets are off, just a 'friendly' warning the topic of this of thread have a tendency to go a bit well ... astray. I suggest the posts reflect reasoned comment on the topic and there is no flaming or trolling in the replies.

Remember for your safety and comfort the =I= is watching.

PhilB
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Fable
01-07-2009, 18:30
Because Pete Haines wrote it would be my answer. I still consider him the worst codex scribe to date and he was far too likely to play favorites within the dex he was working on. Free bonuses for the things he liked, and frailty for the lists he didn't particularly care for. He was also quoted numerous times for wanting multiple races faded out of the game because he thought they were too fantasy laden and not Sci Fi enough. Not just specific army factions but entire races. When Pete Haines had sway rules were always pushing technology over magic (psykers and the likes are essentially magic users). That was the real source of the problem. Did I mention that he played Iron Warriors?

The_Outsider
01-07-2009, 18:37
Because Pete Haines wrote it would be my answer.

This is the core the issue yes - giving the ability to write the codex to a known fan without someone to step in and go "nope, too much, scale it back" is pretty much what happened.

Plus it had the most godawful layout ever, multiple reprintings that noone was told about and an FAQ the size of the DE codex.

-----

Also: legions are not 2D forces, they can (and do) use whatever the hell they like, the legions just tend to favour somethings over others.

That and I really dislike the chaos community on warseer (putting it mildly).

Angel of the Black Parade
01-07-2009, 18:38
Plague Marines weren't as overpowered.

FnP troops are ownage!

Bloodknight
01-07-2009, 18:51
What Fable said. Just compare the old CSM codex with the old Guard codex (I played both, no favouritism or whining that my book got the short stick here). I am seriously glad that that guy doesn't write anything for GW anymore.

@Fable: what did he want to phase out?

Jayden63
01-07-2009, 18:53
It was strong in 4th, very strong. Now it would just be on par with anything the new codexs have come out with.

Also the new chaos codex is just as over powered as the old one is. There are some truely sick builds that can come out of it. But its flavorless, option limited, and an insult to anyone who in the last codex created a fluffy army and didn't go for the over kill.

Gaargod
01-07-2009, 19:30
On the plus side, the old codex allowed you to represent a huge variety of armies. Gunline death, infiltrating armies, speedy assaults, daemonbombs, hell you could even do a balanced army.

Now look at the new codex. Princes are probably easily the best HQ (lash still being great), plague marines work very very well as troops and the heavy support choices are pretty much all solid (oblits in particular). But its fluff is more or less dead and its options severely limited to what is decent. Special characters are probably undercosted too.

Corrode
01-07-2009, 19:36
I have to admit that I've softened a little bit regarding the 'no options' complaint. I've been flirting with the idea of putting some World Eaters together, so I took a look at the Chaos book. I'm a fan of Daemon Princes, so I went Mark of Khorne, Wings, then... hang on, there's no other options? Sure, for 140pts a flying MC with 6 attacks on the charge is tasty, but it seemed rather depressing that you literally have the binary choice of wings/no wings and then if you pick a particular Mark that's the entirety of your options done. Chaos Lords and the generic squads seemed very option-rich though, so I didn't find too much to complain about.

dal9ll
01-07-2009, 19:45
I dont think CSM are overpowered at all. They just have one really goofy max/min build thats textbook cheese, but CSM as a whole are definietly not overpowered IMO.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
01-07-2009, 19:48
I'd still place Mat Ward at least on par with Pete Hanes. Where PH played favorites, Mat hit the army he faced the most with the biggest nerf bat.

DrDoom
01-07-2009, 19:51
The big hint that it was on the broken end of the scale would be amount of whine from CSM players when the new codex arrived and that one is still counted as one of the top codex even now!

LOL.

I play Chaos (and like the new codex), and I completely agree.

EmperorEternalXIX
01-07-2009, 19:58
A friend of mine played an all World Eaters force. He once won a game while not even in the room ("Just move my guys for me, they just run toward the nearest enemy anyway, I gotta go to the bathroom")

He was a complete noob and throughout the entire first year of us playing the game, he destroyed everyone in his path. I only ever beat him decisively once in 4th and twice in 5th.

His DP + Bloodthirster combo, mixed with 4th ed consolidation rules, devoured more lines than I can remember or count. He used the glaive on his DP, and the son of a bitch used to maul entire squads by himself without even breaking a sweat (or getting hit back).

DP + BT eat a squad, consolidate into a new one, repeat every assault phase until nothing's left.

I do think that in 5th edition the old chaos codex wouldn't have been that bad. It did need SOME toning down but it didn't deserve the total vanilla remake it got. Chaos is still a great list, though, and I think the new codex handles marks and stuff like that much better. It just needs a little more flavor. The chaos fluff in that book ("We just turned rebel five minutes ago!") is second in crapness only to the SM codex ("Oh wow hello Lysander, I am Pedro Kantor! Wonder Twin Chapter Tactics Unite!").

Personally I did the idea of the legions splitting up over time and joining into other renegade warbands but I feel like the chaos codex didn't convey that at all. Instead it was more of a cheap nerf with no fluff moving their story forward, only re-writing parts of it for the sake of justification.

infernus31
01-07-2009, 20:29
I think the last chaos marine codex was broken because your Raptor squads could be upgraded to an aspiring champion at +15 points

Ah typos, glorious stupid typos....

CEO Kasen
01-07-2009, 20:41
I dont think CSM are overpowered at all. They just have one really goofy max/min build thats textbook cheese, but CSM as a whole are definietly not overpowered IMO.

Dude. Last Codex. :p We're back in 2004 or so.

dal9ll
01-07-2009, 21:00
Oh shoot I agree then. I play Iron Warriors and the previous edition's IW's were NUTZ! Tank-Hunters, access to Basilisks, unlimited access to Obliterators, the ability to run 4 Heavy Support choices -- all for no points cost! Yes the last Codex was silly...

Lord Humongous
01-07-2009, 21:11
Because Pete Haines wrote it would be my answer. I still consider him the worst codex scribe to date and he was far too likely to play favorites within the dex he was working on.

Perhaps he wrote unbalanced codexes, but he also added hugely to the game. It seems like half of the current USRs are derived from veteran skills or other abilities first presented in Pete's 3.5 ed C:CSM. The fact that the needed to be added to the basic rulebook because they got cloned into every other codex since written says something for Pete's ability to create a rule that enhances the game.

senorcardgage
01-07-2009, 21:16
The old book was awesome. For 186 points (I think) I could get a demon prince with 8 attacks on the charge with WS6, S6 and at I6. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, the thing was that he was actually a defensive monster. The guy had T6, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save AND feel no pain. That meant that a las canon wielded by a BS4 model only had a 14% chance of wounding him. Yeah, that's right, you needed almost two full devastator squads with lascanons to take off one wound. It also took something like 144 SM CC attacks to take off a wound.

The guy could take out entire 1k point teams on his own. His only downfall was to S10 weapons that could instantly kill him.

LemmingStampede
01-07-2009, 21:40
The old codex was a mix of good stuff, and what on earth were they thinking stuff. IW's were fairly prone to abuse, and Siren was just plain dumb. The Siren demonbombs were just lame. And DP's could get to insanely abusive levels. And didn't need to worry about defense because they'd just advance behind smoked rhinos and once they made it, they didn't need to worry about anyone swining back at them anyways.

Fay_Redd
01-07-2009, 21:48
I remember when the current CSM book got released, my store did an old verus new game. The current, then new CSM codex trounced the old one without a thought.

Awilla the Hun
01-07-2009, 21:50
I did notice, when playing against it, that daemon princes were quite ludicrously tough, as well as having lots of attacks.

But I was an idiot, and didn't like the task of a) painting them, b) putting them together, and c) having a giant golden dragon at the end.

Fixer
01-07-2009, 22:01
There is this myth that it was possible to make a fast, ultra killy, extremely hard to kill DP/Lord, no such creature existed. Yes, if you read the list of options it seems possible, but when you actually do the maths, you can't have a DP/Lord that is fast, hard to kill and able to deal out huge amounts of damage,



The Chaos army's standard issue flying demon prince with WS6, STR6, 4 wounds, T6, 2+/5+ with 6 attacks and furious charge and a dread axe that ignored invulnerable saves was present in pretty much every single army.

What did that cost overall? 200 points if that?
Cardcage has also mentioned the Khornate FNP Demon prince.

Games against old style Demon princes were a nightmare. You'd have to lascannon or plasma them as much as possible because if they made it into close combat with something of yours that unit almost immediately died.

Bunnahabhain
01-07-2009, 22:05
Perhaps he wrote unbalanced codexes, but he also added hugely to the game. It seems like half of the current USRs are derived from veteran skills or other abilities first presented in Pete's 3.5 ed C:CSM. The fact that the needed to be added to the basic rulebook because they got cloned into every other codex since written says something for Pete's ability to create a rule that enhances the game.

Yup, it says the basic rules are too restrictive and badly constructed that they need USRs bolted on left, right and centre to make them half way passable.

LemmingStampede
01-07-2009, 22:45
The Chaos army's standard issue flying demon prince with WS6, STR6, 4 wounds, T6, 2+/5+ with 6 attacks and furious charge and a dread axe that ignored invulnerable saves was present in pretty much every single army.

What did that cost overall? 200 points if that?
Cardcage has also mentioned the Khornate FNP Demon prince.

Games against old style Demon princes were a nightmare. You'd have to lascannon or plasma them as much as possible because if they made it into close combat with something of yours that unit almost immediately died.

I still say the worst combat monsters were the Slaaneshi ones. Khorne had the problem of having no choice but to chase a landspeeder or other assorted cheap vehicle around the table most games, especially if they brought the glaive like always.

Slaaneshi ones with combat drugs, furious charge, master crafted ccw with a second ccw, spiky bits, extra strength, extra attack... End up somewhere around WS 6, S8 on the charge, effective I7 or 8, 7 attacks with 2 re-rolls to hit. I think the only defense I bothered to buy him was T6 and an invul save. Didn't even bother with 2+ armor. He'd just fly behind rhinos packing slaaneshi close combat squads for a turn or 2, and then start eating everything. Highly adaptable, and the only danger was either an entire squad of terminators (and even then, probably not), something else huge like an Avatar, or killing himself with his own drugs.

The_Outsider
01-07-2009, 22:50
I've had a chaos player bitch at me because their infiltrating, tank hunting, autocannon toting havocs couldn't kill my monolith.

I've never been so close to murder in my life.

Havarel
01-07-2009, 23:03
I still say the worst combat monsters were the Slaaneshi ones. Khorne had the problem of having no choice but to chase a landspeeder or other assorted cheap vehicle around the table most games, especially if they brought the glaive like always.

Slaaneshi ones with combat drugs, furious charge, master crafted ccw with a second ccw, spiky bits, extra strength, extra attack... End up somewhere around WS 6, S8 on the charge, effective I7 or 8, 7 attacks with 2 re-rolls to hit. I think the only defense I bothered to buy him was T6 and an invul save. Didn't even bother with 2+ armor. He'd just fly behind rhinos packing slaaneshi close combat squads for a turn or 2, and then start eating everything. Highly adaptable, and the only danger was either an entire squad of terminators (and even then, probably not), something else huge like an Avatar, or killing himself with his own drugs.

Ahh, the good old days of Lords overdosing. I'd have a moderately kitted out Lord dlaughter half/most of a squad, then overdose. It was great.

The biggest problem with the last codex were the options. There were too many; it was too confusing to navigate the book let alone get a list from it, and there were too many options that when combined were just downright broken. But these options did add a lot of flavour, character and actual soul to the armies and variants. When everyone moans about too many SM variant codexes, and how there should be one big book, this was the first stab at it. Well on this large a scale. But it was poorly executed. If they had reproduced this book, cleaned it up, made it far more usuable and brought more internal balance to it then it would have been great.
Instead, GW gave us the bare bones of a codex, something that they should have built on. Don't get me wrong, this is a skeleton made od Adamantium. It gets everything it needs to done, its a very powerful list. But it lacks so much of the character and soul of chaos. I've ended up writing a huge background (stands at 10,000 words now) as to why my EC use pretty much everything in the codex, just to get some kind of interest out of the army list.

Mannimarco
01-07-2009, 23:07
in the new chaos codex we do have some nice troop choices, plague marines are awesome at holding territory, berserkers are great assault troops and can be relied on to holl their own in combat and come out on top, noise marines can be outfitted to throw out an insane amount of firepower and thousand sons are good MEQ killers (if a little pricy)

3.5 had more powerful character choices and a greater sense of flavour when it came t creating a lord level character, marks do not = legion, a lord with the mark of nurgle is not a death guard lord, if he was he'd have FNP and blight grenades

a complaint ive seen in the past is some of the more broken elements were taken away only to be reincarnated in sombody elses codex: your daemon weapon giving you plus 2 strenght is broken and should be taken away, heres somthing for the space marine codex called a relic blade, its pretty much the same, although it doesnt have a risk of killing the owner and you can take several of them, taking a dreadnought with parasitic possession is broken! extra armour making it a LOT tougher to kill, heres the new space marine ironclad dreadnought

Jayden63
01-07-2009, 23:28
The Chaos army's standard issue flying demon prince with WS6, STR6, 4 wounds, T6, 2+/5+ with 6 attacks and furious charge and a dread axe that ignored invulnerable saves was present in pretty much every single army.

Games against old style Demon princes were a nightmare. You'd have to lascannon or plasma them as much as possible because if they made it into close combat with something of yours that unit almost immediately died.

Not quite.

Armor, stature, essence, flight, and dread axe are 95 of your 100 points of demonic gifts. That only gives you WS6, S5, T5, W3, and A3 (four if you add in 1 point for an additional CCW)

Now you can take the Mark of Nurgle to get +1 T but then your not taking Mark of Khorne to get the +1 attack. Furious charge will bump you up to S6, but thats only on the charge.

That was what was cool with the old DP, it could be anything, but not everything. My personal one was 183 points. He could kill anything, but only had 3 wounds and a 3+/5+ save. So he seemed very killable thus I never got a complaint of cheese.

Also Khorne was a joke against someone who knew how to play against them. I saw Khornate DPs have no choice but spend all game chasing after a 50 point landspeeder.

The only real build that had a legitimate complaint against it is IW. At the time, oblit spam and 4 heavys was brutal since they only had to blow 150 points on troops. That left everything else wide open for the more powerful stuff.

All the other stuff is standard fair in todays marine codex.

The_Outsider
01-07-2009, 23:42
The only real build that had a legitimate complaint against it is IW.


Siren prince daemon bomb.

Yeah, thats fun when your opponent basically plasy the entire game themselves.

ehlijen
02-07-2009, 00:04
Another gripe I had with that codex was that it introduced the silly idea that for some reason power weapons/fists were worth significantly less on champions hiding in large squads simply because once you finally did fight your way through his 4-19 meatshields he'd have less wounds than an IC. That was immediatly followed by SM players yelling that they wanted that too and in 4th ed they got their wish leading to a plague of powerfists descending upon the land until recently it was put back where it belonged (ie the spot of an expensive and rare specialist tool).

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 00:43
Another gripe I had with that codex was that it introduced the silly idea that for some reason power weapons/fists were worth significantly less on champions hiding in large squads simply because once you finally did fight your way through his 4-19 meatshields he'd have less wounds than an IC. That was immediatly followed by SM players yelling that they wanted that too and in 4th ed they got their wish leading to a plague of powerfists descending upon the land until recently it was put back where it belonged (ie the spot of an expensive and rare specialist tool).

But wasn't that back when IC's and TMC's could pick out individual models?

Jayden63
02-07-2009, 00:44
Siren prince daemon bomb.

Yeah, thats fun when your opponent basically plasy the entire game themselves.

Sorry, but Siren was a poor man's crutch.

Siren was easily compensated for or countered against. Just surround the guy. Run up and dump your guys around him. He can't move since back in 4th ed, you could not move over another model. Now he has to either attack your guys and thus show himself or do nothing. Also since the demons that come off of him are somewhat stranded they are easy to pick apart.

Not to mention it only takes one winning psychic hood roll to kill that plan out right back when all hoods effected the whole table. Not to mention any presence of SOB or DH made it useless. All those inquisitors with mystics that all competitive imperial armies seem to take, Siren/demon bomb didn't like them much either

Siren was a waste of points if your opponent had half a brain. I played EC, and never once even considered taking siren, minimum of 70 wasted points if the other guy just thought a little bit ahead.

However, Termi and biker deamon bombs were pretty tough, but that was easily on par with Lysander Termi bomb, or Drop pod spam of the time.

DhaosAndy
02-07-2009, 01:56
"The old book was awesome. For 186 points (I think) I could get a demon prince with 8 attacks on the charge with WS6, S6 and at I6. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, the thing was that he was actually a defensive monster. The guy had T6, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save AND feel no pain."

This is precisely the myth I was talking about, if you fielded that, you were cheating.

ehlijen
02-07-2009, 02:25
Sorry, but Siren was a poor man's crutch.

Siren was easily compensated for or countered against. Just surround the guy. Run up and dump your guys around him. He can't move since back in 4th ed, you could not move over another model. Now he has to either attack your guys and thus show himself or do nothing. Also since the demons that come off of him are somewhat stranded they are easy to pick apart.

Not to mention it only takes one winning psychic hood roll to kill that plan out right back when all hoods effected the whole table. Not to mention any presence of SOB or DH made it useless. All those inquisitors with mystics that all competitive imperial armies seem to take, Siren/demon bomb didn't like them much either

Siren was a waste of points if your opponent had half a brain. I played EC, and never once even considered taking siren, minimum of 70 wasted points if the other guy just thought a little bit ahead.

However, Termi and biker deamon bombs were pretty tough, but that was easily on par with Lysander Termi bomb, or Drop pod spam of the time.

Winged princes were also popular and couldn't be boxed in like that. But whether wings or bikes, he was going to be highly mobile and thus impossible to surround by anything that wasn't just as fast (and apart from other princes, there wasn't anything that was both as fast and as hard as one of these).
And combat is exactly where those monsters wanted to be. You put some things around me? How nice. I charge and eat them. And you still can't shoot or countercharge me.
Until codex DH came along, the only defense against psykers in the game were the exceptionally short ranged runes of warding and the ld9 hood of the worst out of all the SM characters. Given that the hood had to beat the psyker in an opposed test, success was almost too rare to bother trying for. WH and DH were the first armies with decent psychic defenses, and they payed for those in being otherwise not as powerful as other 40k armies. And I have yet to see anything but naked inquisitors with assassin phones taken for competitive reasons.

Sure, Siren wasn't foolproof. But it was so hard to counter, requiring such specialist, and often still unlikely to work, countermeasures that you could expect never to encounter them in a game unless the opponent knows you're going to bring a siren prince.

And don't forget that even if the siren doesn't go off, you're still facing a rock hard MC with good mobility. They're hard to take out even without siren.

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 02:29
"The old book was awesome. For 186 points (I think) I could get a demon prince with 8 attacks on the charge with WS6, S6 and at I6. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, the thing was that he was actually a defensive monster. The guy had T6, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save AND feel no pain."

This is precisely the myth I was talking about, if you fielded that, you were cheating.

Please explain. It wasn't cheating at all there, bud. Maybe you might want to try using your brain thinkins before making outlandish claims like that.

I didn't go over 100 points of demonic gifts, including demon weapon, so what could be wrong??

Seismic
02-07-2009, 05:08
Oddly enough i think the old codex would be more balanced with the 5th edition rules , minus a few exception of course. But then again i haven't looked at it in quite a while so i may be forgetting something.

That being said, the old dex was the most unbalanced in that context, but i think all the basic rules were out of whack back then; I remember games being decided when the roll to see who started was cast. With consolidation, sweeping advance and deployment being what they were, some armies definitely had an advantage; My kid brothers Wytch cult could win by turn 2 if he'd got to go first. I saw 6 genestealers go through an entire army (or most of it) without much that could be done to stop them. I think a lot of people fail to see that the problem with the previous chaos codex wasn't solely based on the book it self , but it was also due to the core rules in effect.

Evidently, the more options you have ,the more likely it is that some abusive elements will fall through the cracks. However i don't see the difference between the over powered combos of 3.5 and Lash+templates in the recent codex.

big squig
02-07-2009, 05:11
While the old dex was pretty exploitable, the new one is fairly weak sans a cheesy psychic power.

DhaosAndy
02-07-2009, 05:28
"I didn't go over 100 points of demonic gifts, including demon weapon, so what could be wrong??"

My apologies, I didn't sus you were using the glaive. Though it still proves my point about myths, because the glaive just turns your DP into a speeder chaser waiting for the S10 smack down. Awsome on the charge, OK in defense, no mobility.

TheOverlord
02-07-2009, 05:42
Heh.

45 tank hunting autocannons in the army, was not pretty.

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 05:46
My apologies, I didn't sus you were using the glaive. Though it still proves my point about myths, because the glaive just turns your DP into a speeder chaser waiting for the S10 smack down. Awsome on the charge, OK in defense, no mobility.

There are quite a few armies that don't take S10 weapons. Also, not a lot of armies have land speeders. The common idea was to take some las canons and the like to shoot down any sort of baiting vehicles that might exist.

How do you figure that the DP is "okay" in defense? T6, 2+/4+ save and FNP? Other than the C'Tan I wouldn't say there is any non-vehicle model that is better in defense in the entire game!

I also would tend to disagree with the "no mobility" statement. Move 6, run D6 and then assault 6 isn't terrible.

DhaosAndy
02-07-2009, 06:41
senorcardgage: "There are quite a few armies that don't take S10 weapons."

Fewer in 5th ed true still seem to bump into a lot though.

senorcardgage: "Also, not a lot of armies have land speeders."

True, but most have something cheap and faster than the DP that'll do the trick.

senorcardgage: "The common idea was to take some las canons and the like to shoot down any sort of baiting vehicles that might exist."

I know, but depends on the vehicles, spending half the game shooting up cheap vehicles ain't cost effective.

senorcardgage: "How do you figure that the DP is "okay" in defense? T6, 2+/4+ save and FNP? Other than the C'Tan I wouldn't say there is any non-vehicle model that is better in defense in the entire game! "

1/ Vulnerable to instant death.

2/ Not played against storm shield termies? Nob biker spam? Etc.

senorcardgage: "I also would tend to disagree with the "no mobility" statement. Move 6, run D6 and then assault 6 isn't terrible. "

As is your right. Don't forget the blood rage though!

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 06:58
True, but most have something cheap and faster than the DP that'll do the trick.


This isn't exactly the easiest thing to do when there is an army on the DP's side! The DP isn't terribly slow and that thing has to be the closest model for the DP to care about it.



1/ Vulnerable to instant death.

2/ Not played against storm shield termies? Nob biker spam? Etc.


I wouldn't say that being vulnerable to only S10 weapons is 'vulnerable to instant death.'

Storm shield termies do not have T6 and feel no pain.

Odds of BS4 model with weapon in question wounding with:
Lascanon ~ DP = 14% SST = 19% Nob biker = 28%
Plasma Gun ~ DP = 11% SST = 19% Nob biker = 28%
Bolter ~ DP = 0.9% SST = 5.6% Nob biker = 5.6% with FNP

Seems to me like the demon prince stands up pretty well, especially when considering small arms fire.

Really, the biggest thing with the demon prince was this: if you ignore him he will crush your army and if you focus everything to stop him the rest of your entire army was free to do whatever they wanted.

Occulto
02-07-2009, 07:41
The previous codex was overpowered because while each individual upgrade was costed appropriately, as soon as you started combining them it started to get out of control very quickly. Most of the restrictions were half arsed too.

If you played against someone who used the codex to build a characterful list, it was one of the most enjoyable to face. If you faced a powergamer, it tended to blow chunks.

BrotherMoses
02-07-2009, 08:00
I never played chaos but as a newbie having a look at it to consider an army, it was just WAY to spread around. There was wargear, gifts, and god knows what other places to pull your upgrades from. It was so confusing and if you spent so many points on stuff you became a monstrous creature and etc. etc. It was very intimidating and not much fun to read. I figured I would need to actually be from the warp to understand that thing:wtf:

I do like the new chaos codex. I'm even considering starting a CSM army. The only thing I don't like is that they took demons out. I think that was a bit too much. I guess it was GW trying to save all of the good stuff for the Chaos Daemons book(which btw has some of the worst fluff I've ever read). I think they could have left them in. Heck or atleast given them the ability to have different marks as upgrades.

And what ever happened to pink horrors of Tzeench!?!

The_Outsider
02-07-2009, 08:23
And don't forget that even if the siren doesn't go off, you're still facing a rock hard MC with good mobility. They're hard to take out even without siren.

If I remember my codex correctly siren was a minor psychic power, so you just went and bought tons of rolls on the chart to pretty much make sure you got siren.

big squig
02-07-2009, 08:27
I never played chaos but as a newbie having a look at it to consider an army, it was just WAY to spread around. There was wargear, gifts, and god knows what other places to pull your upgrades from. It was so confusing and if you spent so many points on stuff you became a monstrous creature and etc. etc. It was very intimidating and not much fun to read. I figured I would need to actually be from the warp to understand that thing:wtf:

I do like the new chaos codex. I'm even considering starting a CSM army. The only thing I don't like is that they took demons out. I think that was a bit too much. I guess it was GW trying to save all of the good stuff for the Chaos Daemons book(which btw has some of the worst fluff I've ever read). I think they could have left them in. Heck or atleast given them the ability to have different marks as upgrades.

And what ever happened to pink horrors of Tzeench!?!
I always felt that daemons should gain the mark of the icon that summons them.

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 14:41
If I remember my codex correctly siren was a minor psychic power, so you just went and bought tons of rolls on the chart to pretty much make sure you got siren.

You're absolutely right. They were cheap and didn't affect your demonic limit, so who cares?

I think he was referring to the fact that you had to actually pass a psychic test for it to work. Now, on LD10 that's not a big deal, but it definitely can be failed!

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 14:43
I always felt that daemons should gain the mark of the icon that summons them.

That sounds like a pretty good idea! That would make them pretty damn scary, though.

Bishop Rook
02-07-2009, 15:17
If I'm playing against a list that I feel is cheesy; that is, designed to win at the cost of my enjoyment; I just tell my opponent 'no thanks!' Most people at my FLGS take this viewpoint as well, so WAAC lists tend to be rare... outside of tournament season when everything boils down to exploiting cheesy builds regardless.

I never knew the last Chaos Codex was considered beardy for that reason... until I started frequenting internet forums, which was after the codex had been retired. Apparently it's the worst thing ever! Worse yet, I'd been playing (and winning) against a lot of supposed cheesy builds oblivious to how cheesy they were! If I'd known better back then, I would've done the decent thing and lost repeatedly, refused to adapt my own list or tactics, complained about how cheesy the codex is, but never under any circumstance tell my opponent that I refused to play him for being cheesy.

Instead I had to suffer because of my ignorance and willingness to tell WAAC players where to shove their armies, playing against and occasionally with one of the most varied, interesting and creative codexs GW has ever released without ever knowing how awful it was... if you let your opponent exploit it because you didn't have the balls to say 'no thanks!'

Gimp
02-07-2009, 15:53
9 Lascannons. Broken? 9 Leman Russes? How many dark lances in a Dark Eldar army?

Yes but the Dark Eldar warriors are easy to kill and alot of the options in their codex are reall bad.

You also pay the points for those Leman Russes and they are in the squadron rule so die more easly

Bookwrak
02-07-2009, 16:03
He's also ignoring the rest of what 3.5 Obliterators could do. Not just be 9 lascannons, but just about whatever else you pleased, when you pleased. There was a reason why the standard limitation was one unit of three.

Fixer
02-07-2009, 16:13
Ayep. Old 3.5 Obliterators were also toughness 5 (later changed to 5(4) in a reprint ) had str 10 powerfists and were 10 points cheaper than their modern edition counterparts.

senorcardgage
02-07-2009, 16:14
Yes but the Dark Eldar warriors are easy to kill and alot of the options in their codex are reall bad.


I don't really agree with saying they're easy to kill. For 100 points you get 10 guys with 2 BS4 dark lances. With the way cover is they aren't that easy to kill. Heck, if you have issues with them getting killed toss another 40 points on and make it 15 warriors. Sure each individual guy is pretty easy to kill, but you can get loads of them for a cheap price.

So, for 840 points you can have 90 warriors with 12 dark lances!

I do have to agree with you that many of their options are really bad, though.


He's also ignoring the rest of what 3.5 Obliterators could do. Not just be 9 lascannons, but just about whatever else you pleased, when you pleased.


were 10 points cheaper than their modern edition counterparts.
They weren't ever 65 points, were they? I only ever had the reprinted version so I could be totally wrong.


Sure was nice having S5 and T4(5)!

cuda1179
02-07-2009, 16:40
I had two chaos lists back with the old codex. One was Khorne, the other was Tzeench.

I never really understood why people would take decked-out deamon princes. You could spend considerably less points and still have 80% of the fun.

My Khorne prince had Mark of Khorne, 2 close combat weapons, Deamonic flight, mutation, stature, and essence.

The tzeench prince had two close combat weapons, winds of chaos, flight, mutation, and stature.

Basically for a premium price you could have a prince that could move fast AND be slightly superior to any other race's HQ.

I agree that the last codex had WAY more flavor, and I'm sad to see it go. However the new codex is much less confusing and less open to character wargear abuse.


Yippy!! post 700

Fable
02-07-2009, 19:14
What Fable said. Just compare the old CSM codex with the old Guard codex (I played both, no favouritism or whining that my book got the short stick here). I am seriously glad that that guy doesn't write anything for GW anymore.

@Fable: what did he want to phase out?

Based on multiple accounts Pete Haines openly stated that if he had his way both Eldar and Dark Eldar would have been phased out (or squatted as I like to refer to it). He felt they were too Fantasy oriented and didn't really fit into 40k. I don't know of him making any specific dispariging comments about Orks too openly, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out he wanted them phased out as well because of their prominance in fantasy. It's worth noting which codexes were continuously dumped to the far future to eventually be redone at some later time. In 2002 at Games Day in Baltimore it was announced during the 40k presentation that Codex Eldar would be the codex getting redone following the redone Imperial Guard codex. Needless to say it was unceremoniously pushed back as a project until after Haines was gone.


Perhaps he wrote unbalanced codexes, but he also added hugely to the game. It seems like half of the current USRs are derived from veteran skills or other abilities first presented in Pete's 3.5 ed C:CSM. The fact that the needed to be added to the basic rulebook because they got cloned into every other codex since written says something for Pete's ability to create a rule that enhances the game.

True, but if you fling that much excrement at a wall some of it is bound to stick and resemble art. The pure volume of piddly rules he implimented shouldn't surprise anyone that there would be a couple that could be salvaged. Personally, I think his sins far outweigh his beneficence. Then again, I had to face tank hunting infiltrating havocs with auto cannons on a regular basis, so maybe I have some bias on that end, because when I think of what he added to the game... that's what I think of. Not to mention that he's the one who introduced those USRs into so many other dexes and that once he let the cat out of the bag they had to be implimented everywhere so lists could remain competitive.

The_Outsider
02-07-2009, 23:15
I don't really agree with saying they're easy to kill. For 100 points you get 10 guys with 2 BS4 dark lances. With the way cover is they aren't that easy to kill. Heck, if you have issues with them getting killed toss another 40 points on and make it 15 warriors. Sure each individual guy is pretty easy to kill, but you can get loads of them for a cheap price.

So, for 840 points you can have 90 warriors with 12 dark lances!

I do have to agree with you that many of their options are really bad, though.



Without cover thsoe warriors are nothing - and unlike the old IW list if you make combat with them they aren't going to be punching you back at S4 while hiding behind a 3+ save.

10 DE warriors are easy to kill, it is just that 10 guys with 2 lances are so goddamn cheap a DE player need not really care if they die.

Deadnight
03-07-2009, 00:09
because you could tool up lists to have "everything", with no drawbacks.

you had the super killy infiltrate/speed/lightning claw lord for less than 100pts. 1st turn strike, roll up a flank guaranteed.

ADDED to

a big ass daemon prince that needed the United States' annual amount of fired ammunition dumped into it to even dent the damned thing

ADDED to

infiltrating tank hunting squads

ADDED to

cheap multi weapon extremely heavy firepower units (*oblits)

ADDED to

4 HS choices (including stuff not actually in the chaos codex.:wtf: cos they looted it)

And its no good having a low model count when said low model count shoots you off the damned board in a turn.

then there was the siren bomb list. you had a guy who you could not shoot at all the way in, and who then dumps a load of daemons right into your lines. yes, sisters of battle were immune, but tau, guard, orks etc were not and had no defense.

then there were the all infiltrating armies. "cos alpha legion iz sneaky gitz".


pete haines as a rules writer was terrible. i read a quote ascribed to him stating he "did not think people would field the 9 oblits" he allowed for the IW legion rules... that alone should tell you...

DhaosAndy
03-07-2009, 03:32
Deadnight: "you had the super killy infiltrate/speed/lightning claw lord for less than 100pts. 1st turn strike, roll up a flank guaranteed."

Not possible, you could not get infiltrate + d.speed for 5 pts.

Oh and lords were 0-1 so no DP added

Fixer
03-07-2009, 09:22
You could get a Leuitenant for that price though.

DhaosAndy
03-07-2009, 12:10
True, but he'd hardly be a flank eater, less they were all gretchin.

EVIL INC
03-07-2009, 12:33
The LT had all the same stats except it had one less wound. They could indeed be flank eaters (against more then just gretchin). I remember this from experience.

Roguebaron
03-07-2009, 14:37
funny, in the old edition I never fielded a demon prince, ever. Most games I'd field a lieutenant and opt for more troops. With the new edition, he's the one entry on the chaos list I really miss.

DhaosAndy
03-07-2009, 15:29
EVIL INC: "The LT had all the same stats except it had one less wound. They could indeed be flank eaters (against more then just gretchin). I remember this from experience."

True, if tooled up and properly supported but, 100pts worth of LT, not gonna be eating any flanks, even grots.

He only has 2 wounds @ circa 100pts, he can't clear his kill zone, ergo even if the first unit don't nail him the second will. It only takes a handful of return attacks and a couple of failed saves.

LT's had their uses, specially in smaller games, mainly as character killers though, even the speed LT c/w darkblade (@ circa 150pts) I used to run couldn't take on squads unsupported, tthat I can tell you from experience.

The_Outsider
03-07-2009, 15:36
Christ do people not remember that noone took lords unless they wanted a DP? 2 wounds doesn't mean jack when you were packing the sort of power the LT was.

Why yes, a 120 odd point LT that curbstomped 90% of all other HQ's (and would do to most even now) and could easily take a squad is not right (at least not when hiding behind marine level stats).

The old codex was the biggest mistake GW has ever made - even when comparing it to things like the LaTD list, USF and craftword eldar.

(Man that LaTD list was a real beast if one played it properly).

DhaosAndy
03-07-2009, 16:28
The_Outsider: "The old codex was the biggest mistake GW has ever made - even when comparing it to things like the LaTD list, USF and craftword eldar."

Questions:

1/ What was wrong with LatD?

2/ What's USF?

Observation:

Your having a laugh right?

While a couple of things might have been comparable to Ranger disruption, or up there with the star cannon war walker lists. Nothing, nothing in the 3.5 chaos dex. Gets even close to the mega seer council or the flying circus.

senorcardgage
03-07-2009, 19:55
Questions:

1/ What was wrong with LatD?

2/ What's USF?


USF is Ulthwe Strike Force

The thing that was wrong with LatD was that they were basically imperial guard but got all kinds of benefits, like greater demons.

The thing that I like best about lieutenants was that you could have them cheap as hell and still be really effective. I gave mine just a bolt pistol, dark blade, and frags. 72 points for a guy who had 5 WS5 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge!

The_Outsider
03-07-2009, 20:10
While a couple of things might have been comparable to Ranger disruption, or up there with the star cannon war walker lists. Nothing, nothing in the 3.5 chaos dex. Gets even close to the mega seer council or the flying circus.

Yeah how about no.

The mega seer council of death was comparable to the mental things you could do with tzeentch chosen or even what possessed were capable of.

The chaos codex just broke so many things all over the place rather than just one big lump of imbalance.

Meh, if you can sit there with a straight face and tell me the old chaos codex was balanced then frankly nothing will get you to take your blinkers off.




The thing that was wrong with LatD was that they were basically imperial guard but got all kinds of benefits, like greater demons.

Man that just scaled so horribly really - like mutants who are comparble to currnt ork boyz who were 6 points a piece, or infitlrating guardsmen as troops.


It was great, take basically a mix of currnt orks and old chaos and add in a unit of obliterators, a greater daemon and then jsut spam guardsmen/mutants until you get bored.

Plus, their spawn were loltastically awesome - S and T5 with 2W and a 3+ save for 20 points? Nice.

My favourite bit though is taking a unit of traitor guardsmen with agitator and buying him a chaos hound from the CSM armoury - the agitator was LD7 yet the hound was 8.


The thing that I like best about lieutenants was that you could have them cheap as hell and still be really effective. I gave mine just a bolt pistol, dark blade, and frags. 72 points for a guy who had 5 WS5 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge!

Pretty much, for cost nothing touches that.

philbrad2
03-07-2009, 21:14
LaTd and Ulthwe strike force are from Codex: EoT lets keep this on the Chaos CodexSM 3.5 topic please.


PhilB
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EVIL INC
04-07-2009, 00:09
EVIL INC: "The LT had all the same stats except it had one less wound. They could indeed be flank eaters (against more then just gretchin). I remember this from experience."

True, if tooled up and properly supported but, 100pts worth of LT, not gonna be eating any flanks, even grots.

He only has 2 wounds @ circa 100pts, he can't clear his kill zone, ergo even if the first unit don't nail him the second will. It only takes a handful of return attacks and a couple of failed saves.

LT's had their uses, specially in smaller games, mainly as character killers though, even the speed LT c/w darkblade (@ circa 150pts) I used to run couldn't take on squads unsupported, tthat I can tell you from experience.
I have seen them eat flanks alone and unsupported. Against marines.
I know this from experience. Just as with the lord, they cant be relied to do it every time of course. A lord could do it more often then the Lt, but the Lt COULD do it as I have seen it done and done it myself against experienced players.
What I didnt like in the codex was not the power (of course, I was a chaos player), what I didnt like was the boring blandness of the cult troops. I like the ability to have "cult troops" that now serve multiple roles.
Of course, the icons could have been better done (give the full mark to the unit for the whole game even if the icon is lost) but it is better then not have any other way to field "cult" troops beyond the boring standard cult unit.
I did like the ability to fluff out the characters though. Just too bad that didnt reach the army's non-character models.