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Mireadur
02-07-2009, 18:39
So to avoid the charges of a chaos lord on dragon on an engine of the gods, i thought i would put a skink cohort side by side of the stegadon, not leaving room between the monster and the cohort, but how would this charge be resolved in reality? (think on the matter as a flank charge with the cohort between the dragon and the engine and base to base with it).

Would the flying dragon crash on the cohort since there's no physical room for it to get in contact with the stegadon? or would it still charge since it's a flier and thus need to resolve the fight in a more abstract manner?

Thanks in advance.

jaxom
02-07-2009, 18:48
Don't think you can charge the Steg since there is no room to land. Of course the WoC player should probably just charge the skinks, crush them mercilessly and then carry into your Engine on the overrun.

I forget. Can you use Burning Alignment while you are engaged in melee?

Necromancy Black
02-07-2009, 22:33
I forget. Can you use Burning Alignment while you are engaged in melee?

Damn right you can.

And yes, without room to land the dragon can't make the charge.

nosferatu1001
02-07-2009, 23:08
Not sure how it actually looks, as I cant quite decipher, but the most important thing is that the flyer must have room to land and complete the charge, and in the same charge arc as it started. You can position units such that there is no way for the unit to get charged on the opponents turn, giving you a chance for counter charge and burning alignment.

Mireadur
02-07-2009, 23:41
Don't think you can charge the Steg since there is no room to land. Of course the WoC player should probably just charge the skinks, crush them mercilessly and then carry into your Engine on the overrun.

I forget. Can you use Burning Alignment while you are engaged in melee?

it actually wouldnt overrun you, since you'd declare challenge with the skink champion, lose for +6 tops , you start of with +5CR so lose by 1. double check with ld8 for breaking thanks to slann.. Next is burning alingment and Slann death magic spells...

Drachen_Jager
03-07-2009, 04:46
it actually wouldnt overrun you, since you'd declare challenge with the skink champion, lose for +6 tops , you start of with +5CR so lose by 1. double check with ld8 for breaking thanks to slann.. Next is burning alingment and Slann death magic spells...

Except that he's hitting the flank in this scenario, the champion wouldn't be able to challenge (presuming he wasn't in the flank and/or the WoC player was smart enough to not hit that rank) and there's the additional +1 for flanking and loss of ranks... With the +6 for wounds you called the unit would need double ones to stick around.

Skinks, outnumber 1, banner 1
Lord, wounds 6, flanking 1

Net win of 5 by my math.

jaxom
03-07-2009, 04:58
o.0

If you have a way to march into the flank of a stegadon and screen it as described by the OP, still have 5 static CR, not offer me a flank charge on the cohort and still have the skink champ in a position so that I have to base it on my charge so that you can challenge, then you are a master of movement on the table. I bow to your superior kung fu and willingly throw my dragon into an obviously fatal attack.

As I said before. If I have a combat lord on dragon and you try this screen I am probably going to be charging and demolishing the skinks and then overruning into the steg. This is especially true if I can arrange it as an overrun into a fresh enemy by hitting you with a unit of fast cav at the same time. Obviously this is going to depend on the spells you have, whether or not you have LoS and what could counter-charge me.... But a cohort screen is of questionable utility in this case.

Hehe. Ninja'd by Drachen.

Necromancy Black
03-07-2009, 06:00
Personally I see the bright side of the WoC dragon overrunning into the steg as I can counter charge and cast magic before combat (including burning alignment)

Particularly, If I get a unit champion or another character in contact with the WoC character ! can issue a challenge and force him to to not be able to attack the steg.

Lets say he does the 6 wounds for combat res. I would outnumber, have a flank at least, say 2 ranks and a banner.

Loose by 2, 1 if I a rear charge.

If I had an extra rank that could potentially be a draw, musician lets me win combat. If he doesn't do the full 6 overkill I win again.

Spirit
03-07-2009, 14:18
it actually wouldnt overrun you, since you'd declare challenge with the skink champion, lose for +6 tops , you start of with +5CR so lose by 1. double check with ld8 for breaking thanks to slann.. Next is burning alingment and Slann death magic spells...

So to do this you need:

A: a fully ranked up unit of skinks (106 points)
B: The same on the other side of the stegadon (106 points)
C: A 500 point slann (in temple guard or he gets charged by the dragon)
D: The dragon to charge the front of the skinks
E: The chaos payer NOT casting the nurgle spell that "causes a wound" and kills the champion.
F: A retarded opponent who realises there are probably easier targets on the board.


So yes,this will work, but by god is it pointless.

Also, slann is Ld9, not 8.

Spirit
03-07-2009, 14:20
o.0

If you have a way to march into the flank of a stegadon and screen it as described by the OP, still have 5 static CR, not offer me a flank charge on the cohort and still have the skink champ in a position so that I have to base it on my charge so that you can challenge, then you are a master of movement on the table. I bow to your superior kung fu and willingly throw my dragon into an obviously fatal attack.





Just a note, unless a champion is on the very corner of a unit, it will be impossible to maximise and not be in combat with him, so that isn't an issue. Assuming you frontal charge.

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-07-2009, 14:27
But why would you ever charge a unit with a dragon like that? That's just asking the Lizardman player to kill the dragon. Dragons are awesome, but they do not work well just going directly into the front of a ranked unit.

Drachen_Jager
03-07-2009, 15:56
In the question he was talking about covering the Steg's flank, why is everyone talking about frontal attacks now?

jaxom
03-07-2009, 16:16
Thank you, Drachen. Apparently sarcasm is lost in this particular thread.

The whole point of the OP was to protect his flanks. If you can move the cohort in such a way as to keep in the flank with 4 ranks and still keep the dragon from being in the flank of the cohort, I'll entertain the argument.

The best I can personally imagine is 20 skinks with a champion and possibly command that I'm going to hit in the flank. If the player has remembered to get his champion out on the flank where I have to base it then he can challenge and limit me to 6 wounds. As Drachen pointed out I am still denying ranks and I am gaining flank. Unless you have a general handy that means coldblooded 2 or 3.

Now, if I *really* want to kill the Steg (well, the priest since all I really care about as WoC is the Burning Alignment) then I need two things. First, I don't want to catch anything nasty in a countercharge. Second, I don't want to expose myself to nasty magics which can be cast into combat. Even if I can arrange fresh enemy to complete the second charge on my turn, I'll be challenging since the priest is up there and that means I'm limited to another 11-12 attacks and no more.

So yeah... Like any competent general I am going to look at the board and make an intelligent charge decision. But a cohort guarding a flank of a moving unit is, pretty much by definition, going to present it's own flank and that means that even if I am forced to challenge you're going to be likely to go pop and I overrun into the steg you were trying to guard.

Mireadur
03-07-2009, 17:55
Seriously, none of you guys realize that a dragon wont ever be able to flank charge in the scenario given? It is something really different to situate the dragon into the flank than actually charging it. The Lz player is always able to turn and react to the WoC player moves before it can charge. Im just amazed that out of the 3 people debating this none of you can see it.

I guess i wasnt clear enough: skinks (or whatever unit you use to protect the flank) can maneuver on its turn to receive the dragon charge (if the WoC player still wants to go for it, of course).



Except that he's hitting the flank in this scenario, the champion wouldn't be able to challenge (presuming he wasn't in the flank and/or the WoC player was smart enough to not hit that rank) and there's the additional +1 for flanking and loss of ranks... With the +6 for wounds you called the unit would need double ones to stick around.

Skinks, outnumber 1, banner 1
Lord, wounds 6, flanking 1

Net win of 5 by my math.

There are so many champs here who turned this into a dick lenght contest:

The dragon can never flank charge the unit since he must situate 1st on the flank thus allowing a new move for the lizard player. If you want to charge a specific side you will always need to maneuver thus allowing your opponent to react. Needless to say the dragon player will rather shoot his breath weapons with the same effect for the lizard= 1 more turn for maneuvering without the dragon ravaging your flank and your army entirely.

A special treatment for spirit who prefers to bash people instead thinking 1st before posting. Allow me a fair retribution in my answer:


So to do this you need:

A: a fully ranked up unit of skinks (106 points)
B: The same on the other side of the stegadon (106 points)
C: A 500 point slann (in temple guard or he gets charged by the dragon)
D: The dragon to charge the front of the skinks
E: The chaos payer NOT casting the nurgle spell that "causes a wound" and kills the champion.
F: A retarded opponent who realises there are probably easier targets on the board.

So yes,this will work, but by god is it pointless.

Also, slann is Ld9, not 8.

-Slann is Ld8 because im accounting you lose combat by 1 (do the numbers), for being such a smart ass id say you should realize this without mentioning since i already stated very clearly the combat results there.

-I have read something really silly about the 1st nurgle spell like if every chaos player would use it. Even having a nurgle sorcerer i cant see many chances of it going off with a slann on the board (having a dragon means you can have 2 lvl2 wizards..zzzz). Also it still needs LoS doesnt it? I dont think i need to mention how you block LoS from the front with a LZ army (not to mention the WoC mage would actually cast it agaisnt the skink priest itself huh?).

-''A retarded player'' indeed, who doesnt seem to be able of reading the small letter and just prefers to be a smart-ass with some silly counter argumentation: Since this is only a defensive battle formation, intented to actually incite the enemy to (like you said) look for other charges instead that one rather than giving him freedom to kill easily in the 3rd turn one of your best weapons.

In definitive, the point of this was to ask if you can charge or not without room for it. If we want to keep a debate about who has it longer we should go to the tactics forum.

sulla
04-07-2009, 05:03
In definitive, the point of this was to ask if you can charge or not without room for it. If we want to keep a debate about who has it longer we should go to the tactics forum. If there's no room to land, the charge can't be declared, but be wary; If the dragon can land touching the required frontage, you may be forced to align to him if he can't align to you.

Lord Dan
04-07-2009, 08:23
Seriously, none of you guys realize that a dragon wont ever be able to flank charge in the scenario given? It is something really different to situate the dragon into the flank than actually charging it. The Lz player is always able to turn and react to the WoC player moves before it can charge. Im just amazed that out of the 3 people debating this none of you can see it.

I disagree. 2 units of skinks on either side of a stegadon present some very odd maneuvering issues. With a 20 inch move and the ability to pivot in any direction he'd like, I'd argue the dragon could easily achieve a flank in 2 turns of moving.

You also need to consider that even if the stega-skink combo managed to turn to face the dragon, it'd probably be exposing the other flank to the rest of the dragon-rider's army.

T10
04-07-2009, 13:37
Would the flying dragon crash on the cohort since there's no physical room for it to get in contact with the stegadon? or would it still charge since it's a flier and thus need to resolve the fight in a more abstract manner?

Thanks in advance.

Just to address th original post:

Yes, you can deny the enemy the opportunity to charge your units by making it impossible to "land". This is harder than it sounds: Because both the charger and the target unit are single models in this case, corner-to-corner contact is sufficient to qualify as bringing the "maximum number of models" into combat. (In fact, even if the units involved were all multiple models, corner to corner contact involves more models than no contact at all!)

Also, charging models are allowed to move within 1" of any enemy units, not just the unit they have charged.

Finally, if the charger is unable to properly align with the target unit due to interposing models or terrain, then the target unit is moved to align with the charger.

In effect this means that the blocking unit needs to stick really close to the protected unit and cover a lot of ground. A Stegadon is 100 mm long, so a standard 5 wide unit of Skinks is inufficient to protect the corners, and the cost of a fully ranked regiment increases significantly with its width.

Since you need to stick so close to the Stegadon your maneverung options are extremely limited. Remember: Turing 90 or 180 costs you 25% movement, changing the width of the formation costs 50%. And you can't march while performing these maneuvers. Once you've assumed a defensive position, your Stegaon and the blocking unit are essentially stuck with constantly repositioning to keep facing the Dragon as long as it circles you...

Your best bet is a unit of skirmishers. They can essentially "wrap around" the Stegadon's flank by placing a model in the stegadon's front and rear arc. This will make it impossible for the Dragon to reach the Stegadon. But these are also extremely vulnerable due to the lack of static combat resolution and the fact that the Dragon has good oportunity to dictate which direction he'll be making any overrun move.

So your options are essentially: Use a solid block of skinks to be able to tie down the Dragon but risk getting stuck, or use a skirmish unit and risk the Stegadon getting caught on an overrun.

-T10

Urgat
04-07-2009, 15:13
With T2, wouldn't it be just simpler to land the dragon next to them (try the terror bomb, even if it's unlikely to work), and then just breathe on them? Template weapons on 20mm T2 no save units are nasty enough.

T10
04-07-2009, 15:29
Simpler? Yes.

Relevant? No.

-T10

Urgat
04-07-2009, 15:36
Dunno if it's irrelevent. The original question is born from the validity of the tactic, pointing out flaws is helpful too I believe.

Mireadur
04-07-2009, 21:19
yeah it would definitely be better to just breath away and try different things from the dragons part and it would still be able to charge on the 3rd turn now that i think about it.. But on exchange it would need to get quite close for the breath attack thus exposing himself to LZ player magic...

Maybe giving the Slann an anti-fliers magic lore would be of better help anyhow (since having a dragon will ensure LZ prevalence in the magic phase).

Dunno, offer more ideas to neuter the menace from ravaging your flank when you have no warmachines for the job!


In effect this means that the blocking unit needs to stick really close to the protected unit and cover a lot of ground. A Stegadon is 100 mm long, so a standard 5 wide unit of Skinks is inufficient to protect the corners, and the cost of a fully ranked regiment increases significantly with its width.

Dont forget 5 skinks are also 100mm so they can actually fully cover the steg. Also as many as 40mm away would work, wouldnt it? dragons base is 50.


I disagree. 2 units of skinks on either side of a stegadon present some very odd maneuvering issues. With a 20 inch move and the ability to pivot in any direction he'd like, I'd argue the dragon could easily achieve a flank in 2 turns of moving.

I dont believe this is an issue Lord. Read again my explanation above (the one where i was angered :p) about the LZ player having always 1 turn of maneuvering before the dragon can set up a charge. Dragon couldnt take up the flank until its 2nd turn move so couldnt declare a flank charge until its 3rd turn. In the 2nd Lz turn he can always reform or just turn the units to face the dragon showing again the frontage. Also the steg will move around the covering unit to avoid a charge.

The point of using just a skink cohort instead a saurus unit is because of the matter you presented: cant offer the flank of an expensive unit to the rest of the the enemy army.. So a 100 point unit would be perfect for the task not taking too many resources from your real battle line.

Of course the rest of the WoC army will be coming... Thats another entirely different matter hehe :p

The point about the formation was when i came to the realization that there was nothing that could stop a chaos dragon lord in a LZ army, indeed theres Few(edited) things in the game that can neutralize it..

I've used a star dragon and a WoC chaos dragon lord several times (only 6-8 times in all truth since i dislike that kind of decissive units) and never got them killed. The time it was closer was when my HE star dragon faced in a single combat 2 treemen and a WE dragon lord at the same time where my star dragon survived with 1 wound left and the WE dragon lord and 1 treeman died (which gives an idea about the strenght of such units).

Gazak Blacktoof
05-07-2009, 10:51
I may be repeating what has already been said, if so I apologise.

The corner to corner charge is more difficult with any unit than it initially sounds, as you may only make a single pivot or wheel during a charge. You need to be able to charge past the blocking unit then perform your pivot/ wheel so that you can aim for the target's corner.

I'm not sure if its at all possible if the target's edge is parallel to the front of the charging unit, and it may not be possible if the angle from parallel is small.

Adran
06-07-2009, 08:07
Dont forget 5 skinks are also 100mm so they can actually fully cover the steg. Also as many as 40mm away would work, wouldnt it? dragons base is 50.



I dont believe this is an issue Lord. Read again my explanation above (the one where i was angered :p) about the LZ player having always 1 turn of maneuvering before the dragon can set up a charge. Dragon couldnt take up the flank until its 2nd turn move so couldnt declare a flank charge until its 3rd turn. In the 2nd Lz turn he can always reform or just turn the units to face the dragon showing again the frontage. Also the steg will move around the covering unit to avoid a charge.

The point of using just a skink cohort instead a saurus unit is because of the matter you presented: cant offer the flank of an expensive unit to the rest of the the enemy army.. So a 100 point unit would be perfect for the task not taking too many resources from your real battle line.

Of course the rest of the WoC army will be coming... Thats another entirely different matter hehe :p

The point about the formation was when i came to the realization that there was nothing that could stop a chaos dragon lord in a LZ army, indeed theres Few(edited) things in the game that can neutralize it..



Firstly, unless the dragon is exactly perdenduicular to the stegadon (or really close to have no manouvering room), a 5 wide cohort is not enough. Corner to corner contact will do. Depending on the exact layout, people may talk about the skink cohort also being brough into the combat. I think thats a different dicussion, and requiring pictured examples.

And in you original question it wasn't obvious that the lizardman play had just spent his last turn doing nothing with his stegadon so he could move the skinks forward a maximum 4.5 inches to block off the flank. Most people looked at he question and assumed that you had just marched the skinks into the flank, as that is a far more likely tabletop occurance. Not releveant to the rule inquestion, but discussed as a use to the situation. The Chaos play could fly to the far flank of the Segadon, almost certainly get the flank charge next turn, unles you have a another cohort on the otherside, in which case the dragon could fly to the rear and the stegadon could not get out of its charge arc.

And bolt throwers are the natural enemy of the dragon. If only the lizards had some way of getting a bolt thrower or two on the table...
Or poisoned shots, bypassing its toughness.

Mireadur
06-07-2009, 12:48
why would lizards march over a WoC army? why would anyone, even bretonnia, do it?.. Sure some units will do it to get in position (support units, etc), but for the most part your army will be awaiting for the chaos men, wont they?

If lizards moved 1st then could probably march as you said but if WoC goes 1st then all you will be able to do is reacting to the dragon flanking maneuvers and the frontal advance of his hard hitters i guess.

Finally, dont you think the Steg can be moved also to show less of its base to the dragon? Dunno, but as Gazak has mentioned, the easy charge some of you pretend is not that easy to do when you have 2 units counter-maneuvering you and support fire to shoot you meanwhile.

Anyway im not going to stand agaisnt you on this, since i opened this thread precisely because i consider a dragon an almost unstoppable flank threat.

I guess the only real solution is stand together on a tabletop and show each other our thoughts while maneuvering the real units :D. If nothing else, at the very least, it would enrich our knowledge of the game. Because im sure im missing something that im not able to find logic from your explanations.

EDIT: if the dragon moved behind it would be easier to the lizard in reality, would need turning back the cohorts and maybe wheel and advance a little with the remaining 3'' while the steg could move behind them again. The dragon would be really close now to the table edge, as well as the LZ units... would need real test maneuvering i guess.

Also you would need 3 Steg boltthrower impacts/turn to cause an average of 2 wounds on the dragon... Thats 4-6 (insert poison chances) giant bow shots a turn considering you need to move n' shoot (4+ on the dragon). Of course with that number of shots you can also get it killed right away too... :p

For poisoned shots the numbers would turn out equally disheartening for the LZ part... You have the advantage of doing multiple shots at max distance after moving... but still every 30 shots you could cause about a single wound to the dragon.

Chicago Slim
06-07-2009, 13:54
And just so it's mentioned... The dragon-rider can absolutely declare a charge on the stegadon, if there's any chance that he might be able to complete that charge.

If, when you start trying to find room for the model, it turns out that the skinks *are* in the way, then you refer to the Enemy in the Way rules, which allow the dragon-rider to *change* his target to the skinks (or, if he prefers, to stop 1" short of them).

PeG
06-07-2009, 21:58
Nurgle magic is actually rather popular especially due to the number one spell that can pick characters. If I remember correctly it is however not possible to pick the priest due to the steg being one model and then the hit is randomized as normal between the different components of that unit (or something similar that doesnt make a lot of sense in the WoC FAQ).

T10
06-07-2009, 22:26
why would lizards march over a WoC army? why would anyone, even bretonnia, do it?.. Sure some units will do it to get in position (support units, etc), but for the most part your army will be awaiting for the chaos men, wont they?

(...)

I guess the only real solution is stand together on a tabletop and show each other our thoughts while maneuvering the real units :D. If nothing else, at the very least, it would enrich our knowledge of the game. Because im sure im missing something that im not able to find logic from your explanations.



Why indeed. :rolleyes:

At least you've got the right idea: Set up your the models and play around with different scenarios outside of a game. There's no shame in practice.

-T10

Mireadur
06-07-2009, 23:22
Nurgle magic is actually rather popular especially due to the number one spell that can pick characters. If I remember correctly it is however not possible to pick the priest due to the steg being one model and then the hit is randomized as normal between the different components of that unit (or something similar that doesnt make a lot of sense in the WoC FAQ).

That is not so hot then (indeed now that i read the spell it talks about enemy model)..

I just checked O&G headbutt and it talks about enemy miniature (which would imply that you could snipe the skink priest with it).




Why indeed. :rolleyes:

At least you've got the right idea: Set up your the models and play around with different scenarios outside of a game. There's no shame in practice.

-T10

Im sorry but i dont understand your sarcasm?. How often do you find yourself in a situation where you can get into CC agaisnt a WoC unit with the odds clearly in your favour? Not many unless you've softened their units previously right? Also if you have invested points in shooting/magic and know will be fighting an army with zero of them, why would you haste the melee clash?

Adran
07-07-2009, 07:43
I agree, the exact positioning of the models will matter a lot in practise. And whilst I think my mental battle picture is fine its hard to say without actually playing it, and even harder to explain.

I make it that 9 blow piped shots will inflict one wound on the dragon and 1/2 wound on the rider (may be modified by equipment). The lizards I face normally have enoght skinks to be looking at 2 or 3 wounds a turn if I'm not careful. Which, with any stegadon weapons, means any dragons outside of combat has to be very careful.

Possible reasons to march
-2 tzeench wizards with Infernal gateway in a unit with Skull of katam and power stones.
(well any powerful magic phase)
-Hell cannon(s)
-Chaos Army is very infantry heavy and has been deployed out of position. Or Mayrader swarm
-Objective based game

jaxom
07-07-2009, 15:55
I'll add to the list of reasons to move forward...

- Cav-based list that you need to get the charge on instead of letting WoC pick charges.
- Engine of the Gods needs to close to Burning Alignment (which is great against Knights, Warriors and Chosen because of the lack of saves).
- Maneuvering for flank charges

Entropolus
07-07-2009, 23:41
On your turn after your flank is threatened, you can use the reform maneuver to form the cohort in to a single rank line facing the dragon, then move the steg up to just behind the end of the line. 20 skink make a roughly 16" line, so while you aren't going to be able to make a full march move, you'll at least be able to make some forward progress. If you angle the line slightly you should not have any problem keeping less than a 50mm gap between the cohort and the steg. (In fact, if you keep the original gap between the cohort and steg less than 10mm you shouldn't have to angle the line at all.

Before (http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv183/entropolous/096.jpg)

After (http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv183/entropolous/097.jpg)

The laser level was not moved between pictures, and is there to give a reference to the original positions of the models.
(sorry no LM models handy so I used dwarves and a converted corpse cart)

This biggest benefit of this set up is that the center of the cohort is now well behind the steg, so if the dragon does charge, you will be able to flee behind the steg, and with the 7th ed pursuit rules the dragon will be forced to follow ending up behind the steg, probably in a position where he will not be able to charge the steg next turn, but close enough for you blast him with burning alignment. (Granted this scenario does assume that you are able keep the dragon in the forward flank of the skinks and steg)

Yes, an experienced general is very unlikely to actually declare this charge, but the OP's request is satisfied in that you have prevented the dragon from being able to charge the flank of the steg for at least one turn.

Mireadur
08-07-2009, 02:02
I'll add to the list of reasons to move forward...

- Cav-based list that you need to get the charge on instead of letting WoC pick charges.
- Engine of the Gods needs to close to Burning Alignment (which is great against Knights, Warriors and Chosen because of the lack of saves).
- Maneuvering for flank charges

I never claimed not doing any moving at all, in fact all the possibilities you offer there have been previously posted and/or should just be guessed offhand.

Seriously guys, you really need to try reading and comprehending what other people post.

Mireadur
08-07-2009, 02:06
This biggest benefit of this set up is that the center of the cohort is now well behind the steg, so if the dragon does charge, you will be able to flee behind the steg, and with the 7th ed pursuit rules the dragon will be forced to follow ending up behind the steg, probably in a position where he will not be able to charge the steg next turn, but close enough for you blast him with burning alignment. (Granted this scenario does assume that you are able keep the dragon in the forward flank of the skinks and steg)



But the dragon can just declare charge agaisnt the steg and ride down the skinks in the process, wouldnt it?(unless the player faced it in a bad direction so after your move of the steg it doesnt have LoS on it anymore).

Basically my thoughts are what you depicted but without reforming into a single line. Depending on how the dragon is faced you would reform/maneuver your skinks and the stegadon. Also ahead the skink unit there should be the real LZ battle line with the templeguard. and saurus infantries, whatever you please i guess.

jaxom
08-07-2009, 02:39
I never claimed not doing any moving at all, in fact all the possibilities you offer there have been previously posted and/or should just be guessed offhand.

Seriously guys, you really need to try reading and comprehending what other people post.

I'm sorry, Mir. I've tried to be understanding of the fact that English is a second language for you but as far as I can tell you are actively picking fights in multiple threads now.

I've pretty clearly offered examples both here and in private communication of the things I think we're failing to communicate including the simple assumption that you don't want to base WoC with a LM list. I've actually ready through all your posts and arguments and it boils down repeatedly to you and I having *very* different ideas about how this plays out.

It's not worth wasting my time even trying to figure out what you mean or assume or understand at this point. Good luck with your warhammer in the future, sir.

Mireadur
08-07-2009, 02:49
-Not picking fights in any other thread.

-I understand my english can be hard to understand sometimes (although it is not like yours(in general) is perfect :p)

Also check your privates. We have our tactics debate going on there, and it looks like the understanding is much better than here :)

EDIT: and going to sleep for now. Well keep chatting tomorrow. Night lads.

Chicago Slim
09-07-2009, 22:10
On your turn after your flank is threatened, you can use the reform maneuver to form the cohort in to a single rank line facing the dragon, then move the steg up to just behind the end of the line.

After (http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv183/entropolous/097.jpg)

Here's your problem:
My turn. (http://www.klocktower.org/photos/097.jpg)

I charge the dragon into the skinks, landing at the extreme right end of their line, putting the last 4 skinks into combat (since I can only put 4 20mm skink bases into contact with my 50mm base, it doesn't matter which 4 skinks I choose).

In the combat res, I obliterate a huge pile of skinks, winning combat by a lot, and breaking the skinks. As I pursue them, I contact the flank of the stegadon, and count as charging it at the beginning of your combat phase in the next turn.

Adran
10-07-2009, 07:25
That would work, except one thing.
The skinks flee.
And because you haven't moved yet, the center of the skink unit flees from the center of the dragon - which means you'll pursue and catch the skinks behind the stegadon.
And because the line of the dragon move doesn't touch the stegadon, no "enemy in the way" to get into combat.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2009, 11:42
I'm not sure that you can declare enemy in the way with the dragon even if the skinks fled through the stegadon. The dragon can fly straight over the top of the steg so its not "in the way", unless the dragon would be forced to land on it in order to complete its charge against the fleeing skinks.

Mireadur
10-07-2009, 11:57
That would work, except one thing.
The skinks flee.
And because you haven't moved yet, the center of the skink unit flees from the center of the dragon - which means you'll pursue and catch the skinks behind the stegadon.
And because the line of the dragon move doesn't touch the stegadon, no "enemy in the way" to get into combat.

The difference being made is that you dont declare skinks as charge target but the Stegadon. So you trace a line from the dragon and it touches skinks..Skinks would be able to declare a charge reaction, they would flee but the dragon charge would still head on the stegadon (although im not sure about this anymore since so many have doubts about it, gonna dig in the BRB for it).

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2009, 11:59
You can't declare a charge against the stegadon as there is insufficient room to make a legal charge.

nosferatu1001
10-07-2009, 13:34
Agreed with Gazak: declaring a charge when there is clearly not enough room to cokplete the charge legally is not on :)

Mireadur
10-07-2009, 17:32
You can't declare a charge against the stegadon as there is insufficient room to make a legal charge.

I disagree (not strongly though), rules just talk about distance, not room.

nosferatu1001
10-07-2009, 18:02
Rules talk about having sufficient reach, which includes the ability to actually complete the charge (assuming a hold reaction) which you cannot do if you cannot "touch" the unit. If you cannot touch the unit you have not completed the charge.

Entropolus
10-07-2009, 21:44
The difference being made is that you dont declare skinks as charge target but the Stegadon. So you trace a line from the dragon and it touches skinks..Skinks would be able to declare a charge reaction, they would flee but the dragon charge would still head on the stegadon (although im not sure about this anymore since so many have doubts about it, gonna dig in the BRB for it).

The first line of the the "Enemy in the way" section of the rules reads "After a unit has fled from the charge,..." Therefore, the only way that you redirect your charge onto the skinks is if the Steg flees. (and, as Stegs are now ItP, that isn't going to happen)

Gazak Blacktoof
10-07-2009, 21:48
I believe that condition was removed.

Entropolus
10-07-2009, 22:39
Touche'...
Forgot to about the FAQ...

Mireadur
10-07-2009, 23:51
Hehe, it appears we have suddenly found a point of debate which was... Unexpected. I actually would like to see opinions from more people about this.

In my opinion it would happen the following:

The dragon declares charge agaisnt the Steg. Steg holds (as ITP) you move the dragon, while moving it, the dragon collides(sp?) with the skinks unit in front of the steg.. If skinks flee Dragon charges Steg. IF skinks hold they will get overrun on the steg (or hold if they are formed in ranks and have a champ)

Now, if this turns out to be like Gazak or Nosferatu say.. Then my original argument about screening the steg with some skinks would be way way easier:wtf:??

I personally consider stupid that the defender can get such advantage from just fleeing 1 unit which is not the intended objetive much more when the dragon originally sees the Steg...

What do you guys think? Im confused.


EDIT: I believe this argument is more than debatable:


Rules talk about having sufficient reach, which includes the ability to actually complete the charge

nosferatu1001
11-07-2009, 10:34
If you cannot fit into B2B with your target, it is a failed charge. This can include where you have no space to fit, you have no distance etc.

You also can't fly into the skinks - you are in the air until you land, which is in front of the Steg. At the point you cannot contact the Steg as you cannot fit, and you cannot cnotact the skink as you have made contact with their rear, not the facign you started in.

Your only option is to charge the skink to begin with...

Mireadur
11-07-2009, 22:59
Consider the dragon is not a flier so it does the charge by land.

Lets scratch everything and start from the very beginning:


If there's no room to land, the charge can't be declared, but be wary

Sulla posted this in the beginning which we agree at 1st glance, but where exactly is this said?

The only reference im currently finding is ''a unit may only declare a charge if at least 1 model in the unit can see at least 1 enemy model in the oposing unit''. Thats the only condition i can find.

Now going back to the situation of declaring charge on a visible unit behind another one, i see it more like a case of ''pursuing into a fresh enemy'' rather than ''enemy in the way''.

And finally i wonder whats Jaxoms opinion about what is being discussed here now (if you'd want to participate at all, of course).

Gazak Blacktoof
12-07-2009, 09:43
You aren't allowed to declare a charge you know to be impossible to complete- Check the first BRB FAQ, 2nd page, 1st column.

Jerrus
12-07-2009, 10:21
I guess the Dragon could simply have charged the Steg in the face instead of trying to outflank it....

nosferatu1001
12-07-2009, 10:23
Most dragons can deal with a steg on the charge anyway - lance plus dragon S6 attacks make short owrk of them. You either play safe and kill the priest, or go for it, kill the steg and autobreak the priest.

Mireadur
12-07-2009, 10:51
the steg could also be protected by the front? Just a wild guess