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grumbaki
03-07-2009, 02:47
In a game today I hit a casket of souls with two cannons balls, which bounced through the priest. I argued that the cannons balls hit both the casket (which cannot be hurt) and the priest (who most definately can).

He argued that in the tomb king army book it say that all shooting attacks must be randomized. Thus, I would need to roll a 5+ to hit the crew, and then a further 5+ to hit the priest.

So, how exactly does this work? It would be good to know for future games.

Drachen_Jager
03-07-2009, 04:54
I don't have the Tomb Kings book handy but it smells awfully fishy to me. Normally if the line of the cannon passes through a character and he fails his Look out Sir! roll or he cannot make one (as in this case) he is hit, you don't randomize template hit weapons, it hits BOTH the casket and the priest as you say.

Tell him to show you the rule and read it for yourself.

Drachen_Jager
03-07-2009, 05:15
Ok, got it;

"Any hits from shooting that strike the Casket itself are ignored. Hits on the crew are randomized between the Casket's two guards and any associated Liche Priests or Liche High Preists."

So the first randomization is right out, it says they act like a war machine and crew which would not allow for the randomization of cannon shot. I think the crew randomization should be out too but it does kind of imply that you should randomize, I'm pretty certain that is not the intent of the rule however. There may be a FAQ clarifying this.

Nurgling Chieftain
03-07-2009, 06:35
Cannon hits are on models, not units, and are not randomized like normal shooting attacks, except in those cases where hits on the model are randomized (like a character riding a monster).

Milgram
03-07-2009, 06:57
the priest and the two guards are actual models, even though the casket model itself is one model including the priest and the two guards. so in fact you have there two guards, one priest and a casket standing around like a warmachine. you can imagine the bases for yourself. also you can attach additional liche priests or whatever character you like.

Flogger
03-07-2009, 10:27
If the cannonball went through the casket to hit the liche priest I'd say it's not ok. Since the ball hit the casket first (stopping it) I don't think the priest could be hit.
But that's just my idea of playing with the fluffy thing that the casket hits are discounted as the casket is just full of awesome.

nosferatu1001
03-07-2009, 10:34
It doesn't say that the cannonball is stopped however, so no, if the line goes through the liche you hit the liche with no chance of LOS!

Gazak Blacktoof
03-07-2009, 10:44
Cannon hits are on models, not units, and are not randomized like normal shooting attacks, except in those cases where hits on the model are randomized (like a character riding a monster).

Agreed. The cannon doesn't stop when it hits the casket either.

The casket sucks if your opponent has cannons or fliers.

StormCrow
03-07-2009, 11:21
I know this is purely a rules forum but lets take a step back and consider this visually as if it were a real battle field...

The odds of a cannon being able to shoot at a casket from hundreds of feet away and hit with pinpoint accuracy the liche shielded behind it, bearing in mind it comes up to his waist without him even bothering to take cover behind said invulnerable shield are extremely slim.
Also take into account that his 2 guards are ever watchful of any incoming harm and could push him out of the way when they hear a cannon go off.

Now considering these things is it really that surprising that a cannonball shot would have to be randomised between the casket and crew if not at the very least between the liche and his guards.


From a rules perspective arguing semantics and lines from army books taken out of context it sounds much more in the favour of the person with the cannon, but remember that the casket costs a player 280points minimum so you can't really be that shocked when it takes more than one shot to bring it down.

I'm interested in the discussion however! This would be my verdict;

friendly game; randomise between casket and crew or the crew themselves
tournament; if the shot passes through both liche and casket then randomise between them, otherwise no save

my 2c

EvC
03-07-2009, 11:33
Friendly game: follow the absolutely clear rules. Cannonball shots hit what they hit.
Tournament: follow the absolutely clear rules. Cannonball shots hit what they hit.

Job's a good un.

Or we could start playing fluffy- how about, all skirmishers and other models with 360 degree line of sight are simply pointed away from the casket, and so are never affected by it? Oh and obviously all troops would simply look away from it too... so no unit should ever be affected by the casket, ever.

Shamfrit
03-07-2009, 11:35
How about putting the casket on the back edge of a hill, with the Priest and Guard deployed out of sight behind the hill.

Immortal casket :D

StormCrow
03-07-2009, 12:15
Friendly game: follow the absolutely clear rules. Cannonball shots hit what they hit.
Tournament: follow the absolutely clear rules. Cannonball shots hit what they hit.

Job's a good un.


Following the "absolute clear rules" the cannonball hits the casket which is invulnerable to harm. How can it then pass through said invulnerable object and kill the priest standing behind it. In this regard i don't think the rules are clear at all. And yes i know the template hits everything it touches rule, but in this case surely you can see that it doesn't quite add up. That's why in a friendly game I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the tomb king player and say you would have to randomise
1-4 the casket is hit square on
5-6 the casket is only glanced or missed completely and the priest is obliterated by shards of nasty shrapnel or the full cannon ball itself as it bounces over.

I'm not saying your view is wrong, just trying to open the floor for at least some degree of discussion.


Tournament games your view would win out in a heartbeat


Oh and obviously all troops would simply look away from it too... so no unit should ever be affected by the casket, ever.

you do know you can face your units away from a casket right. Handy tip if you "dont want to be affected by it, ever";)

And by the way; i was using fluff to justify my position on the rules, not to be a patronising...so and so

Milgram
03-07-2009, 12:23
Following the "absolute clear rules" the cannonball hits the casket which is invulnerable to harm. How can it then pass through said invulnerable object and kill the priest standing behind it.

in the same way it would pass through an ethereal unit which is completely invulnerable for a cannonball.

yes, the casket is not ethereal, but neither does it count as a hill when a wlc shoots at it.

EvC
03-07-2009, 14:55
Following the "absolute clear rules" the cannonball hits the casket which is invulnerable to harm. How can it then pass through said invulnerable object and kill the priest standing behind it.

Quite easily? If you don't want me to be patronising, you'll have to ask less stupid questions, sorry bud :(


I'm not saying your view is wrong, just trying to open the floor for at least some degree of discussion.

Take it to the rules development forum :)


you do know you can face your units away from a casket right. Handy tip if you "dont want to be affected by it, ever";)

Can I do it with skirmishers too?

Drachen_Jager
03-07-2009, 21:29
Following the "absolute clear rules" the cannonball hits the casket which is invulnerable to harm. How can it then pass through said invulnerable object and kill the priest standing behind it. In this regard i don't think the rules are clear at all.

The cannon ball doesn't penetrate the casket, it sends the casket flying into the face of the Liche, knocking his head off his shoulders and leaving him walking around with a casket where his head normally sits for a few seconds in a most humorous display before he turns to dust.

Happy now?

Lord Yawgmoth
04-07-2009, 03:17
I agree,

the empire needs every chance they can get against the TK ^.^ it's pretty r*** otherwise*.



In friendly games, do whatever you want as long as you agree with it before the game.... just know that the rules are quite clear, and tell your opponent the rules are quite clear.

(That is, until GW makes a faq claiming that obviously the casket can't be hurt at all as the crew and liche whould all jump inside while the cannon was fired.)

*sarcasm

riotknight
04-07-2009, 21:52
Wait, doesn't the rule read that any hits on the Casket unit is randomized between the Liche and Guards, which would then make it like hitting a ridden monster (except he's getting piggy backed by his guards? funny image)? Why is there an argument if that is the case? Or maybe i'm remembering it wrong.

Lord Zarkov
04-07-2009, 22:34
Randomise like a warmachine and crew. Which doesn't happen if you get hit by a cannon or other template.

kyinpie
05-07-2009, 13:44
wouldnt u treat a cannon shot on the casket as you would a skirmishing unit? same as you would any other war machine? (for the sake of a cannon shot, not all skirmishing rules) everything in that line will be hit, machine and crew! however, if their is a charecter you would randomise! as is the case here as they are not unit strength 5 or more! if you shot a cannon at a dwarf machine that had a engineer, you'd randomise between the crew then! same goes for a skirmishing unit that and a charecter and US less than 5, youd randomise that cannonball! this is to stop cheesy play and sniping charecters! the same for the look out sir roll!

ky

nosferatu1001
05-07-2009, 13:51
Firstly - "!" are not full stops, please don't use them as such - it makes your text harder to read.

Secondly, you do not randomise or get a LOS! roll, the model hit is the model hit, nothing more or less than that. US5 has nothing to do with it as this is not normal shooting

kyinpie
05-07-2009, 14:05
well thats my point! the randomising between chareters and crew is instead of the LOS role! becouse they arnt US 5 or more! i was just reeinforcing my point!

if you had a unit that was reduced to 5 or less rank and file with a charecter in it, u'd randamise the cannon ball if they tryed sniping u!

im guessing that all 'cheesy' players that uses gun lines will always disagree with this anyway! as long as you and your opponent have fun and agree, what difference does it make! if you cant agree, and it is unclear, and it is only our opinions and interpretations on the rules, then i would sudgest you and your opponent role off to see whos way you'll use!

ky

Lord Zarkov
05-07-2009, 14:19
The randomising for hits under US 5 does not affect templates (including cannons), the only defence aginst which is "Look Out Sir!"
The rules are infact clear.

BTW 'cannon sniping' was infact possible (and used) in real life. It was only generals trying to be honourable that spopped it being commonplace (Wellington's "Generals do not shoot at generals!")

kyinpie
05-07-2009, 14:34
right i actually got the rule book out now! ......... yep in the origanl case the priest would also be hit! it is legit whithin the rules! the only protection youd get is the look out sir roll as stated above! as a war machine crew only has 2-3 members (normaly) they would have a cannon ball to the face!

i think i will have to have a word with the dwarf player down the club tonight! lol

woops! i should have cheaked that and not just believed him! either way i personaly dont like charecter sniping, i feel its not in the spirit of the game! but thats my opinion, and not a rule!

ky

grhino
05-07-2009, 15:51
Until GW makes a FAQ about this, just agree reasonably with your opponent before the game.

Personally (emphasis: personally!) I would argue that randomising this shot between the crew, or LP & casket is the most 'fair' solution: by randomizing between only crew you always hit something (unless you misfire or the dice are not with you for rangeing -is that a word?-the shot, obviously) and increase your hitting chances on the LP by killing guards. Otherwise: roll a dice to see if the cannonball can cause enough damage or bounce high enough to still decapitate the LP: 1-2; priest gets it, 3-6; casket stops the shot. Guards are then ignored completely, to take into account the cannonball vs. target line without randomising between crew effect.

Off course, it is not according to the rules but would at least give both parties a chance.

Ruleswise: there is something to say for stopping the cannonball shot on the casket, unless the angle of the shot is such that you can avoid it and still hit the priest. Cannons assume a bounce, which means the ball will be low when it hits the target.

Other interpretation is strong in favour of Empire/Dwarf/other cannonshooting armies: 'ignoring' hits vs. Casket does not mean the shot is 'stopped' so it would still hit the Priest.

riotknight
05-07-2009, 17:24
I just put my Priest and guard on separate bases TBH.

Kevlar
06-07-2009, 09:20
right i actually got the rule book out now! ......... yep in the origanl case the priest would also be hit! it is legit whithin the rules! the only protection youd get is the look out sir roll as stated above! as a war machine crew only has 2-3 members (normaly) they would have a cannon ball to the face!

i think i will have to have a word with the dwarf player down the club tonight! lol

woops! i should have cheaked that and not just believed him! either way i personaly dont like charecter sniping, i feel its not in the spirit of the game! but thats my opinion, and not a rule!

ky

Ya, cannon sniping has always been around. The look out sir roll minimizes it, but even then a 6 is always possible. Most people will shoot at a vampire lord or some other juicy target even in a ranked up unit, just in hopes he will fail to "lookout"!

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 09:51
A "1" is a failure for LOS! ;)

I've done it a number of times - it's too tempting to resist :D

Eulogy2
08-07-2009, 01:14
templates override normal targeting rules. the liche has no look out sir rule, and there for SHOULD get hit by a cannon or any template weapon.