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Stronginthearm
03-07-2009, 04:19
Ok I'm not sure if this list is cheesey so I would like a general opinion, my friend uses it consistantly and I don't know how to beat it please help a poor chaos player

His list looks something like this for 1500 pts
2X5 man squad of marines in a drop pod thingy that removes scatter across the board
2X5 man squad of marines in a drop pod
2X5 man squad of marines in a drop pod
10 man squad lost and the damned
7 man squad greyknights in a drop pod
3 Landspeeders

My main troubles come from the fact that in a game he will imediately drop down behind me and mow down my entire force there and lost and the damned are SOOO hard to kill

Voleron
03-07-2009, 04:27
He's misusing the Combat squad rules. You can't have 2 5 man squads in a drop-pod. 1 10-man squad, or 1 5-man squad, along with the other 5 men starting on the board or walking in from reserve.

Grey Knights can't take Drop Pods at all.

Drop pods don't remove scatter completely - reduce it, sure but it's still there.

And surely you'd have time to spread out before he shows up? He can't drop on until turn 2 at the earliest, and he can't just pick and choose when.

Ignore the lost and the damned, kill everyhting else. They can't do too much on their own, hitting only as hard as normal marines, really.

Basically, he's either not read his rules at all, or he's outright cheating with nearly everyhting.

ehlijen
03-07-2009, 04:28
As far as I know, Grey knights do not have access to a drop pod, so I'm not sure how he does that.

Next, you being chaos, how exactly is him landing on your front lawn the problem? You should actually be quite capable of weathering his fire and then countercharge. His army isn't actually all that resilient apart from the legion, and they lack the killing power to make up for the huge cost (against chaos at least, vs eldar or dark eldar they rock).
Make sure he tells you which drop pod has the locator beacon (which only works within 6", not across the board (not sure if that's what you meant)), and shoot that one before his second wave arrives. A lascannon or two, maybe some meltas will do the trick.

ehlijen
03-07-2009, 04:30
Drop pods don't remove scatter completely - reduce it, sure but it's still there.

And surely you'd have time to spread out before he shows up? He can't drop on until turn 2 at the earliest, and he can't just pick and choose when.



I think he's referring to a locator beacon, though how that works 'accross the board' I'm not sure either.

Half rounded up of the drop pods will actually arrive first turn, no choice. They should still be easy pickings for a 1500 point army facing them.

Raalyk Saaris
03-07-2009, 04:30
well, the 10 man squad in the drop pod could break into two "combat squads" if im correct, i forget the name of the rule but that could be what OP means by two five man squads in one drop pod.

Also the Deepstriking of grey knights could be misinterpreted as using a "drop pod."

I don't think units can assault after being deployed from a drop pod, so you could just rapid fire them into shreds before they close in.

Voleron
03-07-2009, 04:36
I think he's referring to a locator beacon, though how that works 'accross the board' I'm not sure either.

Half rounded up of the drop pods will actually arrive first turn, no choice. They should still be easy pickings for a 1500 point army facing them.Yeah, I had a vague inkling it was that, but the wording threw me. I figured it was best to assume worst-case shenannigans in the absence of clarity. Given the explanation, there's probably shenanigans going on regardless.

>.> And yeah, I forgot the Drop Pod's 1st turn rule. Blech. I need to fight Marines more often. (Never thought i'd say that.)


well, the 10 man squad in the drop pod could break into two "combat squads" if i believe, i forget the name of the rule but that could be what OP means by two five man squads in one drop pod.
Still can't have 2 5-man squads in a pod regardless. Only superheavies can transport multiple squads, Combat Squadding or not.

senorcardgage
03-07-2009, 04:43
well, the 10 man squad in the drop pod could break into two "combat squads" if i believe, i forget the name of the rule but that could be what OP means by two five man squads in one drop pod.



Still can't have 2 5-man squads in a pod regardless. Only superheavies can transport multiple squads, Combat Squadding or not.

I was also under the impression that the squad could break into two combat squads after deploying out of the pod...

Could definitely be wrong though!

Voleron
03-07-2009, 04:45
Combat squads have to be decided at deployment. Which means you have to split them then, not when they DS in or come on from reserves.

Raalyk Saaris
03-07-2009, 04:48
I was also under the impression that the squad could break into two combat squads after deploying out of the pod...

Could definitely be wrong though!

^^
This is what I meant, they split into two after leaving the pod. To the unexperienced marine opponent, it could seem as if there was two squads in the pod if the marine player doesn't describe what he's doing properly (which it is obvious that he is)

TO me it sounds like the marine player has a poor grasp of his rules and has the mentality that spess mahrines can do all kinds of stuff that they can't.

Stronginthearm
03-07-2009, 04:59
The grey knights are definityely coming in with the drop pods and the locator becon is being used as no scatter for everything, and on the other point 4 combat squads worth of rapid firing pounds my troops into small bits definitely beats my troops

Voleron
03-07-2009, 05:06
The grey knights are definityely coming in with the drop pods and the locator becon is being used as no scatter for everything, and on the other point 4 combat squads worth of rapid firing pounds my troops into small bits definitely beats my troops

Then he's either cheating or doesn't know the rules /at all/ on the first two points there, and on the second, aside from the illegality of combat squadding post-DSing...

You're playing Chaos. You're T4 with 3+ armour minimum. He's rapidfiring with 5 bolters per squad, or 4 and a plasmagun for half of the squads at best. Unless he's making all of his 4+ to-wound rolls and you're failing all of your 3+ armour saves (which is ludicrously unlikely to happen more than once; in the order of millions to one unless I miss my guess), then you shouldn't have lost enough of your army to prevent you from mounting an effective counterattack.

I get the feeling there's some serious misinterpretation of the rules going on here. (notwithstanding the stuff we've already covered.)

senorcardgage
03-07-2009, 05:19
I get the feeling there's some serious misinterpretation of the rules going on here. (notwithstanding the stuff we've already covered.)

Maybe we need to see the OP's list?

Voleron
03-07-2009, 05:23
Indeed, that would be best. Well, better than flailing around in the dark, at any rate.

Also, OP - Has he done this more than once?
If so, does it produce similarly devastating results each time?
If so, could you describe a typical sequence of what happens, in as much detail as possible?

That way we can effectively pinpoint where the problems are, and Identify any potential abuses/misinterpretation of the rules.

Grand Master Raziel
03-07-2009, 05:24
A 10-man squad in a drop pod can be split on arrival.


The decision to split the unit into combat squads...must be made when the unit is deployed. ... The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod. The player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod.

Codex: Space Marines, p51

@Stronginthearm: You've sort of answered your own question. You're having trouble killing the Legion of the Damned Squad, so your opponent is using it as a fire magnet. Instead of focusing so much effort at that, let the rest of your opponent's army have it instead. Ignore the LotD Squad until he's got nothing left on the table.

Voleron
03-07-2009, 05:28
A 10-man squad in a drop pod can be split on arrival.
Well, colour me stupid. My apologies for being so adamant in my incorrectness.

...I really do need to play against Mariens more often. Argh.

SonoftheMountain
03-07-2009, 05:37
A 10 man space marine squad deploying via Drop Pod CAN NOT split on arrival. If the squad takes advantage of the Combat Squad rules it is then 2 separate units. This decision must be made before the game starts. And the Drop Pod is a transport, a transport can only have 1 unit in it at a time. A 10 man Tactical squad split into Combat Squads is 2 units.

senorcardgage
03-07-2009, 05:38
Check GMR's post maaaaaaaaan

Voleron
03-07-2009, 05:39
SonoftheMountain - Grand Master Raziel just cited the specific rule in the book that allows it, so it puts that assertion to rest somewhat.

It still doesn't do anything for the Podding GKs, Unlimited-range Locator Beacons, and the fact that his whole army seems to be dying to bolters, and other aforementioned shenanigans, though.

Edonil
03-07-2009, 05:44
Locator Beacon is 12", if I recall correctly, and the model has to be down for a full turn afterwards. Grey Knights cannot drop pod in, and cannot teleport in if he's using them as scoring units. Whole army dying to bolters...can't help ya with that one. Anyway, when he deploys his first drop pods, kill 'em right off. Means he can't use their beacons to guide in the Knights or the Legion.

Kalec
03-07-2009, 05:51
Maybe a bunch of these marines are actually sternguard?

Voleron
03-07-2009, 05:58
Maybe a bunch of these marines are actually sternguard?
Then he should have said so. Otherwise, we have to go on what he's written - and assume that "Marines" means "Tactical marines".

marv335
03-07-2009, 08:02
I don't see the problem.
Assuming everything is deep striking as you say, all you should be facing turn one is two drop pods of marines.
How much damage can 20 marines do to a 1500pt chaos army?
the Grey Knights can't have a drop pod so will have to deploy as a fast attack choice.
He drops in, the LotD, landspeeders, and the GK can't be on the table at this point as they have to be in reserve until at least turn two.
The landspeeders can't fire the turn they arrive as they are traveling too fast to allow them to fire.
He can split into combat squads as the marines get out of the drop pods, but all the pods in the first wave will scatter as the locator beacon has to be on the table at the start of the turn.
He can't assault the turn he arrives as he is deep striking (it doesn't matter that the drop pod is open topped, he still can't assault) so all you have to weather is a bit of bolter fire with perhaps a spot of plasma.
In return he'll have to survive your whole army shooting at half of his.
you should be able to do significant damage to him.
Perhaps some thousand sons to thin out those marines?
all you need to do is kill 20 marines and two pods.
easy.

pinegulf
03-07-2009, 08:30
Questions whether something is 'cheese' are pointless as there doens't exist definition for the word. (Or the definition is so vague that anything may be said to be 'cheese'.)

So yes, it is and it isn't.

Memnos
03-07-2009, 08:50
So... You're having an issue beating 47 marines on 1500 points?

What's your list?

Are you using Mutants with Firearms? If so, don't. They suck.

Are you using Plague Zombies with a 4+ armor and 4+ FNP? If so, I don't know how that could possibly come close to hurting you.

Is he kitted out with Flamers or Plasma guns?

What are your tactics?

Basically, I see his list as being drop pod spam. Hardly unbeatable. Lost and the Damned is a dated list, but you could still crush him.

Voleron
03-07-2009, 08:54
So... You're having an issue beating 47 marines on 1500 points?

What's your list?

Are you using Mutants with Firearms? If so, don't. They suck.

Are you using Plague Zombies with a 4+ armor and 4+ FNP? If so, I don't know how that could possibly come close to hurting you.

Is he kitted out with Flamers or Plasma guns?

What are your tactics?

Basically, I see his list as being drop pod spam. Hardly unbeatable. Lost and the Damned is a dated list, but you could still crush him.

Um, I don't think he's playing the LatD list - he just said "Chaos".

The "Legion of the Damned" in his first post are a fancy elites unit SMs get. Completely different.

ashc
03-07-2009, 09:09
I read the OPs post and almost laughed at the fact that his opponent is actually bothering to field LOTD and Grey Knights (albeit incorrectly in a drop-pod).

There must be serious rules shenanigans going on here, Most chaos marine armies I know should be able to tear that list a new one, we need more information on what the OP is fielding and how his army is apparently dying to bolter fire.

Oh, and for those who ALWAYS get confused by this (I see it too often on these boards)

LOTD: Legion of the Damned, the ghostly marine unit in the new Space Marine Codex
LATD: Lost and the Damned, the old Chaos renegades-style list first printed in the Eye of Terror campaign codex.

Ash

Stronginthearm
03-07-2009, 20:23
I have no idea what sternguard are so I cant answer that one, Second how are legion of the damned suposed to come in hes been doing this wierd thing and I dont know if its legit,

Thanking you for advice

ashc
03-07-2009, 20:29
If some of his bolters ignore armour saves then he has Sternguard as well as tactical marines.

Legion of the Damned enter play using the deepstrike rules and can re-roll the scatter dice for where they land.

Ash

shabbadoo
03-07-2009, 21:45
I have no idea what sternguard are so I cant answer that one, Second how are legion of the damned suposed to come in hes been doing this wierd thing and I dont know if its legit,

Thanking you for advice

Your best bet is to read the Space Marine codex and see, very specifically, how things work, as it looks like most of this opponent's forces come from that book.

Also, get a copy of your opponent's army list rather than post something here like "The unit is kinda like this...", or "His unit did something like this..." and have us play a guessing game while you continue to remember more things about it. If you give specific information you will get specific answers.

Mannimarco
03-07-2009, 22:00
heres how i beat drop pod spam: plague marines!

pods drop in, marines wade out rapid firing their bolters, i remind my opponent that all 35 of my csms are plage marines and even theough he hits me on a 3 his bolters need a 5 to wound and i still get 2 saves (3+ armour and 4+ fnp) unless im very unlucky my casualties are mimimal, plague marines then rapid fire bolters/specials (i run 8 plasma guns and 2 melta guns) at those limited numbers of marines who are far to close to my lines, assault and usually finish butchering them just as the second wave shows up

plague marines are your friend! take lots of them

bobbles
03-07-2009, 22:13
You assault after rapid firing?
Bit dodgy

Mannimarco
03-07-2009, 22:19
how so? am i not allowed to?

Illiterate Scribe
03-07-2009, 22:23
how so? am i not allowed to?

I don't think you've ever been allowed to; you certainly haven't been able to do so since 3e, without the aid of some gnarly special rules.

marv335
03-07-2009, 22:27
no you are not.
The use of a rapid fire weapon prohibits assault

bobbles
03-07-2009, 22:27
The illiterate man above me is quite correct

Mannimarco
03-07-2009, 22:29
really? ill be damned! ive been accedentily cheating and nobody has corrected me......i feel bad now

bobbles
03-07-2009, 22:30
Acceptance is the first step on the road to not cheating

even by accident

Also op it's important you tell us what the bad man did

Stronginthearm
04-07-2009, 00:04
Does OP refer to me?
In response to the request for a more complete army list heres my best shot
10 man Devastator Squad 4 Meltas In Drop pod which splits into 2 combat squads
10 man Tactical squad 2 plasma guns in drop pod which splits
10 man Tactical squad 2 plasma guns in drop pod which splits
3 Land Speeder Squad one with missles
7 Grey Knights In Drop pod
10 Man Legion of the Damned
Commander with one of the tac squads, Plasma pistol and Lightning claw

DrDoom
04-07-2009, 00:06
OP: Your list really would help. But if want some generic tactical advice: CHARGE.

You're better at hth than he is, god help him if you have Berzerkers or Plague Marines.

Edonil
04-07-2009, 00:14
Does OP refer to me?
In response to the request for a more complete army list heres my best shot
10 man Devastator Squad 4 Meltas In Drop pod which splits into 2 combat squads
10 man Tactical squad 2 plasma guns in drop pod which splits
10 man Tactical squad 2 plasma guns in drop pod which splits
3 Land Speeder Squad one with missles
7 Grey Knights In Drop pod
10 Man Legion of the Damned
Commander with one of the tac squads, Plasma pistol and Lightning claw

Couple of things about this- first of all, it's blatant cheating. Not cheese, cheating. Intentional or not, that's what it is.

Reason #1- Grey Knights cannot take drop pods. Period. They are selected from Codex: Daemonhunters, which has no provision for any form of transport for a Grey Knight squad, drop pod or otherwise.
Reason #2- The two Tactical squads? Can't have 2 plasma guns apiece. One Special weapon, one heavy weapon per unit. Not two special weapons, not two heavy weapons, one of each per purchased squad.

Things I'm fuzzy on-
#1- Can Devestators take regular meltaguns? If not, he's limited to multi-meltas, which are Heavy weapons, and cannot fire when they hit the ground.

Advice to give OP:
Get your friend to start reading his own options. Call him on anything he's doing wrong. Two fewer plasma guns, Grey Knights coming on via normal methods, will make a great deal of difference. If you're playing Chaos, take plague marines, or world eaters- either will hurt him. Consider Obliterators or autocannon havocs as well.

ashc
04-07-2009, 00:58
(OP means Original Poster, so yes, that refers to you Stronginthearm :) )

Looks like badlyconvertedto5theditioncodexitis (that's a medical term).

As already stated:
- Devastators cannot take Assault Weapons, only Heavy weapons
- Tactical squads can take ONE special weapon and ONE heavy weapon, not TWO special weapons any more.
- Grey Knights cannot be fielded in a drop-pod.

Correcting your opponent on these things will go towards helping you beat him. What are you usually fielding against this, Stronginthearm?

Ash

Mannimarco
04-07-2009, 01:23
either way id still load up on plague marines and plasma/melta weapons:

you know hes playing marines
you know they're going to get in close fast

so you need somthing from the chaos list that excels at close range/assault, thats plague marines (better at pinning enemy troops in assault than berserkers IMO, blight grenades are not to be underestimated)

you need somthing that can kill marines relatively easily, thats plasma spam and dropbods so get some champs running around with fists

ImRightBehindYou
04-07-2009, 01:39
there is only one solution to this problem, confront your opponent. Ask him to find it where PAGK's can take a drop Pod, and where in the Space Marines codex it says locator beacon is infinite range. If you does this politely, he'll surely tell you or look it up. If he hesitates or doesn't want to show you, (make sure you look and read it yourself, he may word it badly) he has something to hide. You then know he's cheating. It'll make you the more mature player and it'll clear him up on illegal lists.

Grand Master Raziel
04-07-2009, 04:22
Things I'm fuzzy on-
#1- Can Devestators take regular meltaguns? If not, he's limited to multi-meltas, which are Heavy weapons, and cannot fire when they hit the ground.


That's a no to the regular meltaguns. No assault weapons at all, only heavies.


Does OP refer to me?
In response to the request for a more complete army list heres my best shot
10 man Devastator Squad 4 Meltas In Drop pod which splits into 2 combat squads
10 man Tactical squad 2 plasma guns in drop pod which splits
10 man Tactical squad 2 plasma guns in drop pod which splits
3 Land Speeder Squad one with missles
7 Grey Knights In Drop pod
10 Man Legion of the Damned
Commander with one of the tac squads, Plasma pistol and Lightning claw

I agree with the other guys, your opponent is cheating, or maybe just doesn't understand his options as well as he should. How old is he, anyway? At any rate, the 2 plasma guns per Tac Squad was an option last dex, but not in this one. His sergeants could take combi-plasmas, but I gather you'd know the difference. Also, the Dev Squad cannot take normal meltaguns,a nd the GKs may not have a pod, although I think they can take advantage of the locator beacons on pods that drop before they do.

Edonil
04-07-2009, 04:50
If they do take advantage of those locator beacons, they cannot claim objectives because they are now a Fast Attack slot, not a Troops slot- which means one less squad able to actually win him the game except in annihilation.

wartorngetahroun74
04-07-2009, 06:16
Can someone tell me which page shows where a DP becomes a Fast Attack choice if they use the Lovator Beacon? Ive missed it somehow.

wartorngetahroun74
04-07-2009, 06:17
Also I didnt think that Sternguard could assault the turn they come in on a drop pod. I thought only Vanguard, with Heroic Intervention, could do that.

Edonil
04-07-2009, 06:24
Wartorn- We're talking about Grey Knights, not Sternguard. Nothing to do with each other. And Grey Knights become a Fast Attack choice if you Deep Strike them instead of Troops...how you brought Drop Pods into that, I'm not sure.