Dodge Saves.

[RampagingRavener]

I put this up on the GW develpment forums, and thought it would be intresting to put it up here as well. Some units in 40K have invulnerable saves which represent them moving fast, being hard to hit. However, ignore-invulnerable stuff doesn't make sense when they ignore these invuln saves.

Why would a psycannon bounce off a normal Chaos Bikes armour, then suddenly tear through it when it moves faster? It just seems a bit odd.

So, what I was thinking, is that a new class of save-a Dodge save, with the following qualities:

1. Like other saves, you can only make one save-so, like an invuln save, you can make it or an armour save.

2. It works just like an invuln save, but it is not ignored by items which ignore invulnerable saves, such as the Dreadaxe or Psycannon.

3. It is ignored by flamer-template weapons, but not by blast and ordinance weapons. Flamer-templates send out a sheet of fire which is impossible to dodge, but blast weapons mostly work with a hail of shrapnel, which something moving fast could outrun, or a paticularly nimble warrior could dodge.

It doesn't paticularly slow things down any, and just clears up a few things that don't quite make sense, and doesn't strike me as being paaticularly overpowering.

Some examples of units to have Dodge Saves. Please bear in mind I don't have all the codexes, so I might miss some out, so bear that in mind if you start going on about things I've missed. This isn't fully inclusive, just ideas about what could dodge:

All Inquisitorial Assasins, Death Cults and the others (Culexus etc).

Dark Eldar wyches in CC, DE holofeild - it's actually worse, as they get no save against flamers and the only thing they benefit from in combat is against C'tan or the Daemon Weapon Dreadaxe.

ALL Bikes and jetbikes that use turbo boost.

Thats all I can think of. Thoughts?

[KingNova3000]

I agree with Nurglitch, in someone can dodge say a beam of light from a Lascannon surely they could dodge a burning liquid which moves are a much much much slower speed. I suggest a simple change in the rules to weapons that ignore invulnerable saves likes pyscannon for example, in its description it could have something along the lines of "all Daemon units (see codex Daemonhunters for descriptions) do not recieve their invulnerable saves from this weapon".

I agree with what your saying, but I think there is a much easier way of fixing this problem rather then writing and entire new set of rules. Although I'm in not way saying your rules are stupid or worthless, I'm just saying there is a simpler way of fixing the problem (why walk 6 miles to buy a new tire if you can put on a spare).

[Sybaronde]

KingNova, that wouldn't solve the problem with the Dreadaxe or Psycannon ammunition for bolters. Furthermore, it would nerf the Daemonhunters to hell and back, so I wouldn't agree.

Segregating the noted 'dodge' saves would be a better option in my oppinion. Just one thing though, if flamer weapons ignore dodge saves, then blast weapons of all kinds should as well. Either that, or dodgers can dodge flamers, blasts and what not.

However, it could be argued that psycannon ammunition actually has some nifty fine-print that disturbs concentration, leading to lack of reflexes and such, which would easily explain bikers suddenly eating dirt if they ride too fast. I agree it's kind of annoying with people noted as 'dodgers' or 'shielders' that don't get invulnerable saves at something which seemingly is built for slaying daemons, but still, only a few 'dodgers' actually do benefit from a separate dodge (some special characters, assassins and bikers) save, just as well as shielders are very specific (Tau and some Space Marines).

I'm not bashing this, but if you want to go this way, you have to wind it out far. It's not a matter about a simple tweak, as far as i've exlpored the concept earlier on.

[Antaeus]

I had been thinking about this, and Assassins in general. My idea was for Dodge Tests, based on Initiative. So if an opponent scores a hit on a model with the Dodge ability (say a Vindicare Assassin) the model then makes an Initiative test - if passed, the damage is totally ignored. If not, continue to roll to Wound, etcThis would replace their Invulnerable save completely - it's pretty darn nasty and may be a bit too good for units, though Dodge units tend to have little or no armour (if Assassins got that I'd remove their saves completely, and give them only T3 and 1W, except maybe the Eversor). However, I think this would be a good solution, if monkeyed with to balance it for entire units (since it'd be like giving Wyches a 2+ invulnerable in combat. Eek! A reduced version for them, perhaps?)

[IncubiLord]

Ex-guest had a thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19067) on this a little while back.
A lot of critics spoke up, but he had a nice core idea.