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kaled
03-07-2009, 18:56
Afternoon all,

Being as the 'Clave is down, I thought I'd start a thread here about my latest character - she's a Tech-Priest working for Magos-Explorator Vaal Kryzak (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/kryzak.jpg) (but will often be used as the leader of the warband in place of Kryzak). The model is loosely based on John Blanche's sketch of Koriel Zeth in the Visions books and is converted from the Daemonhuntress model. Originally she was going to be armed with an Inferno Pistol, but I decided I wanted her to be the close-combat character of the group and decided to give her a Sollex-Aegis Energy Blade instead (as featured in The Inquisitor's Handbook for Dark Heresy).

Front view (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/Works%20in%20Progress/wip_techpriestess.jpg)
Back view (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/Works%20in%20Progress/wip_techpriestess_back.jpg)

The Sollex-Aegis Energy Blade is described as having a blade of coherent high-energy plasma that materialises from the hilt as a blazing, roaring column of blue-white fire. Below you can see my prototype built from a green lightsaber. Comments are appreciated as to whether people think it adequately represents the energy blade, or suggestions for how it can be improved or done differently. If I do decide to go down this route, the actual model with be made from a blue lightsaber with the wire painted electric blue & white.
WIP energy Blade (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/Works%20in%20Progress/wip_energy_blade.jpg)

As I've never played Dark Heresy, I'd also appreciate people's opinions as to how to translate rules for the Sollex-Aegis Energy Blade to Inquisitor. One question I had is in Dark Heresy, as well as having the 'Power Field' attribute which means it can break weapons that do not have it, the energy blade rules talk about it destroying weapons but don't mention an exception for ones that have the 'Power Field' attribute, so does this mean the energy blade can break those weapons too? One forum I looked at seemed to think so, but I'd appreciate a second opinion.

Other rules such as the wielder's strength bonus not being applied to the damage roll, characters not being able to be stealthy while it is activated and it needing fuel from a plasma cannister are easy enough to translate to Inquisitor. As for the rule about the blade slipping and a hit being worked out against the wielder, I figure this could be on a 96-100 when rolling to hit or parry. I figure Reach and Parry Penalty should be comparable with a power sword, but I'm not sure what damage it should have - in Dark Heresy it does slightly more damage (1D10+6 vs 1D10+5) and is slightly better at penetrating armour than a normal power sword (Pen. 7 vs 6).

As for the character herself, I'm thinking a couple of skills like Deflect Shot and Dodge She'll have plenty of bionics, a few gizmos to increase her awareness (the skulls floating around her head), and maybe an electro-graft increasing her WS. As for weapons, I want them to be fairly low-key compared to the energy blade, so perhaps a digi-laspistol built into her left hand and perhaps some sort of stun gun on her left-hand mechadendrite.

Comments and suggestions gratefully received.

- Dave

MarcoSkoll
03-07-2009, 20:25
My concern is that braid/plait looks much too wide at the top end, and unusually long for hair. It's hard for many people to get hair much longer than waist length (although not impossible, some people can get ankle length hair)

That is assuming of course it is actually hair, and not something else. I can imagine that Magi would have a habit of having shaven heads (or hair loss through some more advanced method), given it's "inferior organic stuff that gets in the way".

But if it is hair, it's nice to see the use of a style that's not common on Inquisitor models.

kaled
03-07-2009, 21:33
My intention for the character is that she has replaced a large proportion of her organic body with bionics, but has done it in such a way as to leave no doubt as to her sex - hence things like the breasts, high heels and long hair.

I wanted to try to give her something of that grotesque femininity that John Blanche manages to put into his sketches of female members of the AdMech.

MarcoSkoll
03-07-2009, 21:51
A perfectly valid point, and a good choice of inspiration, I'm just not sure the hair works quite right the way it is - it's far too thick a braid.

I'm probably more attentive to it than most people will be, given I'm used to frequently drawing braided hair in my artwork, so you might find that it's fine with most people, but to illustrate my point, a link (http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4785514/braid-main_Full.jpg).

Nonetheless, excellent work.

kaled
03-07-2009, 22:27
When you say it's far too thick, far too thick for what? It is a little thicker than amost real hair, but as you pointed out, it's a lot longer too. That said, I would have preferred it if it was a touch thinner.

What about the sword? What do people think of that? Does it conjure up the right sort of image?

Ghost Rain
03-07-2009, 23:40
Nice job on the model.

I find the hair to be just fine, I really like how it looks, it adds more of a mystical feel to the character in my opinion.

Concerning the energy blade, I have no idea such weaponry existed in the Warhammer 40,000 universe!

MarcoSkoll
03-07-2009, 23:55
Long braids aren't notably thicker than shorter braids at the top, they just taper more slowly.

As far as a definition of "coherent high-energy plasma", that's the typical explanation for how a lightsaber might work, so that's the way I'd be going about it.
As for rules, obviously, you want to be somewhere near the power sword, but perhaps plus a couple of points of damage, and with a lower Encumbrance.
While making it so it could damage power weapons might be reasonably accurate, it's something that really needs to be considered carefully from a gameplay perspective rather than perhaps a background one.

kaled
04-07-2009, 00:53
Nice job on the model.Thanks. :)


Concerning the energy blade, I have no idea such weaponry existed in the Warhammer 40,000 universe!They're very rare - few outside the AdMech have them, and the secrets of their operation are little understood even by their makers in the Tech-Priest sect of Sollex. Eisenhorn had a lightsaber type sword, but IIRC his was a power sword without a physical blade rather than a blade of coherent plasma.


Long braids aren't notably thicker than shorter braids at the top, they just taper more slowly.What you say is true, but braids such as the one you posted a pic of earlier are limited by the amount of hair that grows on a human head - in this case (and in the case of the Callidus from whence it came) there isn't such a limitation.


As far as a definition of "coherent high-energy plasma", that's the typical explanation for how a lightsaber might work, so that's the way I'd be going about it.I agree, but this is 40k not Star Wars, so I figure Catferret's (I think it was him) description of it as like a messy lightsaber fits better. I.e. it's still a coherent plasma blade, just not quite as coherent as a lightsaber.


As for rules, obviously, you want to be somewhere near the power sword, but perhaps plus a couple of points of damage, and with a lower Encumbrance.Since close combat weapons don't have a weight (except the default of 5), and I never bother with the encumbrance rules anyway, I'm not so bothered on that score*, but when you say damage somewhere near that of a power sword, what were you thinking? 3D10+2? 5D6+3? 3D10+4? (He says, plucking numbers out of thin air without really thinking about them.)


While making it so it could damage power weapons might be reasonably accurate, it's something that really needs to be considered carefully from a gameplay perspective rather than perhaps a background one.True - so what would you say the issues are from a gameplay point of view? That said, Inquisitor is a game where rule of cool and fluff plays a more important role over things like game balance and fairness (relative to something like 40k). In many ways, despite its fearsome description, the energy blade is no where near as good as a power sword - a cannister only supplies enough fuel to power the blade for about a minute, it will damage the wielder 5% of the time and strength provides no bonus to the damage done.


* However a quick look at The Inquisitor's Handbook tells me that in that game a power sword weighs 3.5Kg and an energy blade just 1Kg, so if you do want to use things like encumbrance there's a starting point.

MarcoSkoll
04-07-2009, 02:24
Well, I've seen people with waist length hair with braids, and they're no thicker than shoulder length braids. And some people can grow ankle length hair, it's just rare.

As far as Encumbrance goes, I too tend to work on the basis of "not too much and it'll be alright" - but I do use the numbers as guidelines.

I'd be tempted to go for damage in the ranges you were listing - unfortunately, DH is not something I know, so I can't really translate one to another.
My inclination would be 5D6+1, 3D10+3 or close to one of them.

My point as regards "gameplay perspective" is that being able to lop any and every weapon in half is going to make it very hard for opponents to fight back in close combat. Obviously, if defending they can dodge - but then there's no chance of counter attack. If attacking, they then have to face a high likelihood of their weapon being sundered.
This is of course the same thing as a mundane weapon user experiences against a power sword - but against a power sword, the weapons which can fight back aren't one in a billion.

You also have to wonder a little about the science of it. Power swords are a form of energy field, and given the nature of plasmas, they would presumably interact in some way with this field.

I'm not sure. There are reasons to go either way. I'll sleep on it.

Ghost Rain
04-07-2009, 02:30
Remember this game does not deal with whats fair.

kaled
04-07-2009, 09:34
Well, I've seen people with waist length hair with braids, and they're no thicker than shoulder length braids. And some people can grow ankle length hair, it's just rare.All very true, but how many female Tech-Priests have you seen who've attached artifical hair to the back of their bionic skull? The thickness of braids grown in real life has little bearing on the thickness of this one - my character is hardly going for a natural look.


As far as Encumbrance goes, I too tend to work on the basis of "not too much and it'll be alright" - but I do use the numbers as guidelines.My philosophy tends to be, if the model doesn't look overloaded then the character isn't. Of course, if someone isn't playing by WYSIWYG and their character has pockets like Guybrush Threepwood, then that philosophy doesn't work so well, and I'd perhaps look at the encumbrance rules.


My point as regards "gameplay perspective" is that being able to lop any and every weapon in half is going to make it very hard for opponents to fight back in close combat.This is true, but that's a situation the vast majority of my characters face when they come up against a character with a power sword. On the other hand, it would be possible when fighting a character with an energy blade, to play for time - we've all seen characters successfully Dodge a whole turn of attacks and they could break from combat and back off - a cannister of fuel will only last 5-6 turns, so this tactic would be especially viable if the wielder of the energy blade had already used fuel in an earlier combat.


Power swords are a form of energy field, and given the nature of plasmas, they would presumably interact in some way with this field.Possibly, but, going by Dark Heresy game mechanics, that might not be the case - in which case we'd simply make up some techno-babble to explain it. The rules for the energy blade state;

Whenever a wielder successfully parries another weapon while using an energy blade and succeeds with two or more degrees of success, the wielder automatically destroys the other weapon.Whereas the rules for weapons with Power Fields, which the energy blade also has, state;

When you successfully use this weapon to Parry an attack made with a weapon that lacks this quality, you have a 75% chance of destroying your attackers weapon.My interpretation would be that the energy blade has the Power Field attribute so it cannot be broken by other weapons that have it, but that it uses it's own mechanic for breaking weapons rather than the Power Field one. Whether my interpretation is correct is, of course, open to debate.

precinctomega
04-07-2009, 13:42
Long braids aren't notably thicker than shorter braids at the top

Mine is. Very thick and chunky at the top and tapers to a thin end. The reason being because I have exceptionally thick hair (comes of having such a thick head, I guess*). I would imagine that a female magos with an interest in exaggerating her gender might well choose to have implanted hair, or even implanted monofilament wire to replicate hair.

*I thought I'd say it before you lot did.

R.

MarcoSkoll
04-07-2009, 14:40
I don't know the mechanics of the DH system, but "two or more degrees of success" implies a degree of unlikelihood - perhaps a scarcer chance of power weapon breaks.

Then again, I've got a temptation to say tie it into some factor on the hit/parry rolls. Critical success (either 01-05 or under a tenth of the required roll), or perhaps making a successful counter attack (possibly in place of making an actual attack).

It's just come to me that given it's a plasma weapon, armour with the ceramite upgrade should presumably get the bonus against this form of weapon.

kaled
04-07-2009, 15:26
Okay, this is my first bash at some rules for the energy blade...

Sollex-Aegis Energy Blade

A product of information obtained from the Aegis Data Fragment and utilising the properties of the Sollex focusing crystals, this is one of the rarest type of weapons in the Imperium - a power blade of coherent high-energy plasma. Devastatingly powerful, only a few Sollex-Aegis Energy Blades are held by individuals outside the Mechanicus, and their secrets little understood even by their makers in the mysterious Tech-Priest sect of Sollex. Although potent beyond even most power weapons, they can also prove treacherous to the unwary as the energy blade can fluctuate, laser containment fail, or the insubstantial blade slip unexpectedly. [From The Inquisitor's Handbook p.135]

Reach=3 Damage=3D10+3 Parry penalty=-10%

- Assuming the character has the hilt in their hand, activating or deactivating the energy blade is a free action that can be combined with other actions as normal.
- If an energy blade is parried, or successfully makes a parry, there is a 75% chance that the opponent's weapon is destroyed - even power, shock and force weapons are vulnerable to this effect. The energy blade itself cannot be destroyed by power weapons.
- While the energy blade does have a degree of density and mass, physical force applied to the swing contributes nothing to the weapons effect, and so no additional damage is done if the character's Strength is over 50.
- An unmodified roll of 96-100 when attempting to hit or parry means the insubstantial blade has slipped unexpectedly and the wielder suffers a hit from the energy blade to a random location.
- The energy blade consumes cannister fuel, with cannisters usually being worn on the belt and fed by a cable to the hilt. A cannister is good for 5 turns of operation (turns where the blade is active for at least half of the characters successful actions). Changing the cannister takes two actions.
- Due to the harsh actinic light and furnace-blast roar that the blade produces, the wielder cannot attempt to be stealthy while it is switched on. The GM should impose suitable modifiers to any awareness tests made to detect the character while the blade is activated.
- Deflect Shot can be used with an energy blade, however only shots from energy weapons can be rebounded back at the firer; solid rounds are vaporised by the plasma blade.

MarcoSkoll
04-07-2009, 15:34
That brings up an interesting question. Daemon weapons - destructible or not?

While one could argue the daemon held together their vessel, daemons are fickle and might be able to use it as an opportunity to escape, which would give all kinds of fun for the GM.

kaled
04-07-2009, 15:58
I decided to leave it for the GM to decide - in some situations I'd say no, in others it could be rather exciting if the bound daemon was released...

Ancelyn1331
04-07-2009, 17:00
Very nice work, Dave. I like the energy weapon- inventive.

Ynek
06-07-2009, 16:28
Pretty good, Kaled. The energy sword ought to look rather good once it's painted up... But I hope you haven't glued that wire in place yet, otherwise it's going to be a real dog of a job to paint it without getting white paint all over the green glow-rod.

Although, I feel I have to echo everyone's concerns that the braid is a bit thicker than it ought to be, but this isn't a major issue.

Overall, it's another great model from the Kaled workbench... I particularly like the rosette of servo-skulls floating at her back.

Hadriel Caine
06-07-2009, 17:54
braid looks fine to me. could easily be dreads or something. many reasons to have thick hair.

I can't wait to see paint on this. It'll sell me on the energy weapon I think. Not convinced atm to be honest mate! Like the stats etc but looks a lot like a light sabre to me :D

I really like the way you've blended components in the main body and like the 'femininity' and delicacy of the bionics compared to usual GW AdMech stuff.

think you've achieved that Blancheian look rather well myself.

Adam

kaled
06-07-2009, 19:19
I'm glad people have commented on the blade - I'm still not convinced it's perfect, but so far I haven't come up with a better plan (and neither has anyone else!). I think the addition of the wire makes it look a lot better than the plain lightsaber and I hope it'll be improved further when it's painted. The green prototype looks okay, but I think the final blue/white version will look a lot better.

I started painting her yesterday - so far the plan calls for a bronze body and red robes with a white cog pattern along the edge. I plan to do the skulls silver and her mechadendrites metallic black like those on my Gruss conversion.

Once she's finished I'll look at arranging a game so I can give her a spin - maybe around here, or perhaps at WHW depending on who's up for it.

abhorsen950
09-07-2009, 18:24
Looks good
ABH

Lacerto
13-07-2009, 17:45
Looking good as always Kaled. Really liking the stylised feel of the army of servo-skulls.

About the energy sword, how about representing it as an electrical arc (http://www.scienceclarified.com/Di-El/Electric-Arc.html) by covering a jagged peice of white wire inside a peice of clear blue drinks straw to represent the boiling plasma area?

The top could then either be a blinding blue-white spark (of green stuff) or an electromagnetically suspended containment seal that levitates out of the hilt when the blade is activated.

kaled
13-07-2009, 19:12
Hmmm, not a bad idea - however a drinks straw would probably be too thick, the blade wants to be about 2mm in diameter.

precinctomega
13-07-2009, 20:34
What about those cheap little drink cartons? Some of them come with little blue straws that would be just the right size...

R.

MonSTeR
13-07-2009, 22:49
I rather like the new fig, but then I like all of Kaled's figures.

With regards to the blade, I think that'd be a case by case basis depending on the level of competitiveness and GM ruling.

Personally I'd be annoyed to lose a power weapon to it, but see it as "the next level" of tech. I don't think it should be able to destory daemon/holy weapons though.

kaled
13-07-2009, 23:10
Personally I'd be annoyed to lose a power weapon to it, but see it as "the next level" of tech.But would it be any more annoying than losing your character's sword, that was handed down through generations of his family, to a power sword? Or a character's finely crafted monomolecular blade being destroyed by a power axe?


I don't think it should be able to destory daemon/holy weapons though.While I can think why some daemon weapons may be invulnerable, I don't see why a holy weapon would be - holy weapons are just mundane ones inscribed/consecrated/blessed by a priest or some other holy figure. Why should that protect them from a devastatingly powerful blade of coherent high-energy plasma if a power sword is vulnerable?

MonSTeR
13-07-2009, 23:42
But would it be any more annoying than losing your character's sword, that was handed down through generations of his family, to a power sword? Or a character's finely crafted monomolecular blade being destroyed by a power axe?

I think simply because of the "made up rules" situation and the unknown quantity of something that's not in the rulebook. That's why I think the rules would have to depend on the level of competitiveness in the game and the GM ruling.


While I can think why some daemon weapons may be invulnerable, I don't see why a holy weapon would be - holy weapons are just mundane ones inscribed/consecrated/blessed by a priest or some other holy figure. Why should that protect them from a devastatingly powerful blade of coherent high-energy plasma if a power sword is vulnerable?

Or, Holy wepaons are ones imbued with the power of the Emporer and it is His light that protect them etc etc. all I'm saying is if you're making up rules, you've got to think of all the various other "made up" rules that you could come into contact with.

Charax
14-07-2009, 00:37
all I'm saying is if you're making up rules, you've got to think of all the various other "made up" rules that you could come into contact with.
No, you really haven't got to, you should only consider the rulebook and other "official" rules when considering the effects of your "made up" rules.

Otherwise you'd surely have to spend forever trawling the 'net for every other "made up" rules to make sure they interact perfectly ("Sorry my Energy Blade rules didn't take into account your Quantum Frostblade, I'd better add that to the three-page appendix to the one-paragraph Energy Blade rules accounting for how the Energy Blade's rather simple function interacts with every other weapon people have made up for Inquisitor").

As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time writing rules for several game systems, the idea that your fan material should somehow be expected to account for possible interaction with someone else's fan material is ridiculous. Take third-party D&D supplements for example; They tell you how the things within them interact with the core D&D rules, they almost never tell you how they interact with the third-party rules from another company.

As long as everyone who makes up rules does so with consideration to the Rulebook and the things within it, there will be a de facto standard to adhere to. Any strange situations can be dealt with when they arise by the GM because that's half of the reason he's there.

And even if the notion that all "made-up" rules should take into account other "made up" rules held water, who is to say the onus should be on Kaled's rule to account for the Holy weapon rules? Why shouldn't the Holy Weapon rules be written to account for Kaled's energy blade? Or perhaps they should both have clauses dealing with the interaction between both sets of rules - but then what if the Holy Weapons author disagrees with Kaled? so the Holy Weapons rules then are given a note that says they can break the Energy Blade, but the Energy Blade says they can't. It would be unreasonable to expect either author to change their position because they are, after all, the ones writing their respective rules.

So you're back at the very same position you'd be in if there were no consideration for other fan-rules written in: The GM decides - the only difference being that you've wasted the time of two authors by making them write worthless caveats which won't affect the 99% of readers who won't be using their rules anyway, and the 99% of those left who will be using them in isolation, having not even heard of the other rules the caveat was written for.

MonSTeR
14-07-2009, 06:58
No, you really haven't got to, you should only consider the rulebook and other "official" rules when considering the effects of your "made up" rules.

Otherwise you'd surely have to spend forever trawling the 'net for every other "made up" rules to make sure they interact perfectly ("Sorry my Energy Blade rules didn't take into account your Quantum Frostblade, I'd better add that to the three-page appendix to the one-paragraph Energy Blade rules accounting for how the Energy Blade's rather simple function interacts with every other weapon people have made up for Inquisitor").

As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time writing rules for several game systems, the idea that your fan material should somehow be expected to account for possible interaction with someone else's fan material is ridiculous. Take third-party D&D supplements for example; They tell you how the things within them interact with the core D&D rules, they almost never tell you how they interact with the third-party rules from another company.

As long as everyone who makes up rules does so with consideration to the Rulebook and the things within it, there will be a de facto standard to adhere to. Any strange situations can be dealt with when they arise by the GM because that's half of the reason he's there.

And even if the notion that all "made-up" rules should take into account other "made up" rules held water, who is to say the onus should be on Kaled's rule to account for the Holy weapon rules? Why shouldn't the Holy Weapon rules be written to account for Kaled's energy blade? Or perhaps they should both have clauses dealing with the interaction between both sets of rules - but then what if the Holy Weapons author disagrees with Kaled? so the Holy Weapons rules then are given a note that says they can break the Energy Blade, but the Energy Blade says they can't. It would be unreasonable to expect either author to change their position because they are, after all, the ones writing their respective rules.

So you're back at the very same position you'd be in if there were no consideration for other fan-rules written in: The GM decides - the only difference being that you've wasted the time of two authors by making them write worthless caveats which won't affect the 99% of readers who won't be using their rules anyway, and the 99% of those left who will be using them in isolation, having not even heard of the other rules the caveat was written for.

This from a guy who's signature is "why your army is not Tournament legal" ;)

I'm new here yes, I'll happily admit to that. ButI've been playing 40K since 87 and have made up my own share of rules for systems over the last 25 years.

I've come to discover that "fan rules" either need to be robust, or to equate to items in the core rules.

Your mileage may vary, but mine has remained remarkably consistent on these grounds :)

Lacerto
14-07-2009, 08:57
Regarding the drinks straw, I'm not sure if this would work but did you ever put packets of crisps in the oven to make them go small? It might be possible to shrink wrap a straw around a peice of white wire to get that effect. It might give it the more unstable look you want too. Might be best to have the extractor fan on just in case...

Ynek
14-07-2009, 09:25
I'm new here yes, I'll happily admit to that. ButI've been playing 40K since 87 and have made up my own share of rules for systems over the last 25 years.

However, it's worth noting that Inquisitor is as different from 40k as 40k is from a cheese sandwich.

kaled
14-07-2009, 10:33
I've come to discover that "fan rules" either need to be robust, or to equate to items in the core rules.How would you go about writing the rules to be more robust? As I said, they were just my first stab at them and I posted them in order to get feedback and ideas as to how they can be improved. Since you're about the only person who's shown misgivings about the rules I'd appreciate your suggestions about you think the energy blade should be represented in Inquisitor?


That's why I think the rules would have to depend on the level of competitiveness in the game and the GM ruling.But the GM's rulings are always the last word as he's the one running the game - this applies to both made-up rules and ones in the book. Inquisitor does tend to be a game filled with made-up items - custom weapons, equipment, armour and abilities crop up all the time. Part of the job of the GM is to arbitrate how these different things interact - in fact, it's not just made-up rules where he has to arbitrate the various interactions, he frequently has to do this with things from the rulebook as well. He can also choose to ignore rules in the book if he wants or if he feels it necessary for the game and/or story to work.

I'm not sure what you mean by the 'level of competitiveness in the game' - are you saying that if it was a tournament type situation then only 'rulebook legal' equipment and skills should be used?

But recognising all that, I'd still appreciate your suggestions on the energy blade as you seem to have a lot of experience with making up rules.


It might be possible to shrink wrap a straw around a peice of white wire to get that effect. It might give it the more unstable look you want too. Might be best to have the extractor fan on just in case...Hmmm, that might work - I'll be popping down the shops later to see if I can find a drink that comes with a blue straw so maybe I'll give it a try.

Hadriel Caine
14-07-2009, 10:41
Hmmm, that might work - I'll be popping down the shops later to see if I can find a drink that comes with a blue straw so maybe I'll give it a try.

I'd like to see the results even if it doesn't work!

Adam

kaled
14-07-2009, 11:15
I'd like to see the results even if it doesn't work!I have a horrid feeling that I'll end up filling my oven with noxious fumes that will permeate all food I cook in there for the next week - but hey ho.

EDIT: No drinks with mini straws at the shop - if anyone one has one in the hear future any chance you could stick it in the oven with a bit of wire to see what happens? Or send it to me and I'll give it a go... I'll maybe pop to Sainsbury's later - if so, I'll look there too.

Hadriel Caine
14-07-2009, 16:46
I have a horrid feeling that I'll end up filling my oven with noxious fumes that will permeate all food I cook in there for the next week - but hey ho.

... kind of what I meant! :D

MonSTeR
14-07-2009, 19:41
My own take on the weapon would be to equate it to somewhere between a power sword and a plasma gun.

I’d suggest
Reach=3 Damage=3D10+5 Parry penalty=-15%

This marries the damage profile of the plasma gun with the profile of the power sword. I’d wager the manouverability of the lightweight blade is offset by the need to absorb the momentum of anopponent's heavier blade when parrying.

To add my take on Kaled's special rules, I'd probably go for...

- Assuming the character has the hilt in their hand, activating or deactivating the energy blade is a free action that can be combined with other actions as normal.

- In addition to the normal rules affecting power weapons, when an energy blade is parried, or successfully makes a parry against a power, shock, force or deamon weapon a critical or automatic hit on behalf of the energy blade wielder, or an automatic miss on behalf of the opponent results in the destruction of the opponent’s weapon. (this is to reflect the DH rules about high levels of success resulting in the destruction of weapons)

The destruction of a Daemon weapon in this manner automatically results in teh destruction of the energy blade as well. Deamons liberated in this manner will attempt to possess one of the two combatants. Use the Daemon weapon rules for this.

- While the energy blade does have a degree of density and mass, physical force applied to the swing contributes nothing to the weapons effect, and so no additional damage is done if the character's Strength is over 50.

- Using the blade in close combat is a risky action (again to utilise the plasma weapon style chart)
1-2 The insubstantial blade has slipped unexpectedly and the wielder suffers a hit from the energy blade to a random location causing him to drop the weapon.
3-4 The sudden motion causes the blade to flare/spike causing 2d6 damage to a random location and depleting the weapon’s fuel cell.
5-6 in order to avoid the dangerous blade, the character drops the weapon.



- The energy blade consumes cannister fuel, with cannisters usually being worn on the belt and fed by a cable to the hilt. A cannister is good for 5 turns of operation (turns where the blade is active for at least half of the characters successful actions). Changing the cannister takes two actions.

- Due to the harsh actinic light and furnace-blast roar that the blade produces, the wielder cannot attempt to be stealthy while it is switched on. The GM should impose suitable modifiers to any awareness tests made to detect the character while the blade is activated.

Charax
14-07-2009, 19:51
Funnily enough, I don't see the effect against "Holy" weapons accounted for on those rules either. What happened to "you've got to think of all the various other "made up" rules that you could come into contact with"?

MonSTeR
14-07-2009, 19:55
However, it's worth noting that Inquisitor is as different from 40k as 40k is from a cheese sandwich.

Then your packed lunches must be a good read, but a little hard on the digestive system ;)

i don't know if you were playing GW games in the mid to late 80s but when 40K came out, it was was as different from 40K as it is today as... well you get the picture.

It was played with a small number of models, usually with a specific story behind each game with rules for the progression of characters and everything.

in fact the way my old group (and most of the groups we had contact with back then) played it, it was far closer to inquisitor than it it is to the 40K cash cow of today. The 1st edition 40K is truly the father of Inquisitor.

MonSTeR
14-07-2009, 19:57
Funnily enough, I don't see the effect against "Holy" weapons accounted for on those rules either. What happened to "you've got to think of all the various other "made up" rules that you could come into contact with"?

My bad, I was merely trying to give my take on Kaled's own rules.

for your inner pedant, i'd sugest Holy wepaons should be treated in the same way as daemon weapons without the possessive implications.

there, done :)

kaled
14-07-2009, 20:20
Reach=3 Damage=3D10+5 Parry penalty=-15%Using the damage from a plasma gun seems reasonable. The parry penalty seems to be more to do with getting your blade in the way of your opponents - a light rapier would be expected to have a better parry penalty than a heavy broadsword. Parrying is not necessarily about blocking your opponents blows, it may simply be deflecting them so I don't think I agree with your point about absorbing momentum.


- In addition to the normal rules affecting power weapons, when an energy blade is parried, or successfully makes a parry against a power, shock, force or deamon weapon a critical or automatic hit on behalf of the energy blade wielder, or an automatic miss on behalf of the opponent results in the destruction of the opponent’s weapon. (this is to reflect the DH rules about high levels of success resulting in the destruction of weapons)While I agree your suggestion is closer to that in DH, it does seem to make it far less likely that it will destroy an opponents blade than the one in DH. I also don't understand the bit about 'an automatic miss on behalf of the opponent' resulting in a destroyed weapon - if the opponent failed to hit, why would I bother to parry?


The destruction of a Daemon weapon in this manner automatically results in teh destruction of the energy blade as well. Deamons liberated in this manner will attempt to possess one of the two combatants. Use the Daemon weapon rules for this.What's your reasoning for a daemon/holy weapon destroying the energy blade? Do you randomise to see which combatant the daemon attempts to possess? If it fails to possess one, do you test for the other? What if it fails to possess either? Does it disappear or do you test again in later turns?


- Using the blade in close combat is a risky action (again to utilise the plasma weapon style chart)
1-2 The insubstantial blade has slipped unexpectedly and the wielder suffers a hit from the energy blade to a random location causing him to drop the weapon.
3-4 The sudden motion causes the blade to flare/spike causing 2d6 damage to a random location and depleting the weapon’s fuel cell.
5-6 in order to avoid the dangerous blade, the character drops the weapon.The current risky action rules don't really work when it comes to close-combat - hence why I didn't use them for the energy blade.

The main criticism you had of my rules was that they were insufficiently robust - it was this I was hoping you could give me a few suggestions for and I'd still be interested in hearing your ideas in this regard.

Ghost Rain
14-07-2009, 21:39
What about deflection of ballistics?

Would a solid round go through the plasma blade or just vapourize in it.

Would a las round go through the plasma blade, deflect off of it, or just vapourize?

kaled
14-07-2009, 21:42
Personally, I think probably in 'real life' they'd be vapourised - but having them being deflected as with a lightsaber is far cooler so I'm going with that.

Ghost Rain
14-07-2009, 21:49
I can see las rounds deflecting off the plasma blade, but I think solid rounds would be vapourized.

And perhaps maybe if it was a constant flow of an energy based balistic it could maybe be re-directed to a different location.

kaled
14-07-2009, 21:57
Yeah, maybe I'll add a rule that energy weapons can be deflected if the user has [Deflect Shot but solid rounds can't.

MonSTeR
14-07-2009, 22:36
While I agree your suggestion is closer to that in DH, it does seem to make it far less likely that it will destroy an opponents blade than the one in DH. I also don't understand the bit about 'an automatic miss on behalf of the opponent' resulting in a destroyed weapon - if the opponent failed to hit, why would I bother to parry?

Badly worded, sorry. I mean if the defender rolls an automatic failure to parry.


What's your reasoning for a daemon/holy weapon destroying the energy blade? Do you randomise to see which combatant the daemon attempts to possess? If it fails to possess one, do you test for the other? What if it fails to possess either? Does it disappear or do you test again in later turns?

Magic, simple as that. In a world where you can generate a self contained coherent plasma blade, I figure putting that into contact with a bound daemon or spiritually enhanced blade would release sufficient energy to cause a suitably interesting event. That and the energy blade looks kind of like the energy streams in ‘Ghostbusters’ perhaps?

I’d say yes, randomise it and work outwards until it possesses a character on the table or escapes from play (for this game at least)


The current risky action rules don't really work when it comes to close-combat - hence why I didn't use them for the energy blade.
Coolio, I’m trying to equate it more to existing rules, but I concede you certainly have more practical experience with the game.


The main criticism you had of my rules was that they were insufficiently robust - it was this I was hoping you could give me a few suggestions for and I'd still be interested in hearing your ideas in this regard.

I can see the holes, but am unable to patch them so to speak. Those who can, do those who can’t point out issues with other’s work.

kaled
19-07-2009, 12:51
Well, I've finished painting her so thought I'd share a few pics. You can also see the Servo-scarab which I reworked a little - I was never happy with the dangling cables so replaced them with a little claw and flamer.

Front (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/riall.jpg) - Back (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/Miscellaneous%20Inquisitor%20Photos/riall_back.jpg) - Activated blade (http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t286/kaled100/Miscellaneous%20Inquisitor%20Photos/riall_2.jpg)

Now, I really need to organise a game so I can give her a spin and see how the energy blade rules work in practice - anyone up for it?

- Dave

Catferret
19-07-2009, 15:04
I like the partial robe. Adds a great assymetry to the model. Also keeps her robe away from the mad plasma blade to avoid unwanted fires. :D

On the subject of the blade, I think you pulled it off pretty well. It's hard to get it to look like the mental images using modelling techniques but I reckon it's close enough.

It certainly looks different enough to a regular powersword, as well as looking like more than just a tagged on lightsabre.

kaled
19-07-2009, 17:31
I like the partial robe. Adds a great assymetry to the model.Well, I can't take the credit for that - it's something I copied from John Blanche's sketch. I'm happy how it turned out - I do need to practice more at getting folds in the skirt, but I think the top half of the dress and the hood came out very well.


On the subject of the blade, I think you pulled it off pretty well. It's hard to get it to look like the mental images using modelling techniques but I reckon it's close enough.Yeah, it's not perfect but I think it converys the right impression. I'm glad I made it removable though - as well as being handy in game, it also means I can have another go at the blade if I ever come up with a better idea of how to do it.

I've also been working on her profile. As mentioned earlier, I've been toying with giving her a Shock Blaster - see what you think;

Shock Blaster

Capable of discharging a blast of electro-magnetic energy, the primarily purpose of the Shock Blaster is to disrupt the control systems of a rogue or malfunctioning servitor, but is also capable of overloading a human's nervous system causing temporary paralysis.

Type=Pistol Range=A Mode=Single Acc=-5 Dam=2D6-1 Shots=5 Rld=2 Wt=15

The Shock Blaster follows all rules for Shock Weapons. I.e. A target hit by a shock weapon is stunned for one turn unless he passes a Toughness test, (no test is necessary if all of the damage was stopped by a force field). A target can only be stunned once per turn in this way.

Catferret
19-07-2009, 18:23
I think it will have similar issue to toxins in that everything passes the T test and the weapon rarely achieves anything. How about if the target passes the check to avoid stunning, they are still dazed and suffer some small penalty for a turn. Pretty sure I'd be at least slightly inconvenienced, if not outright twitching on the ground if hit by a stun gun. :D

kaled
19-07-2009, 23:04
To be honest, I don't want it to be anything approaching a powerful weapon - the energy blade is her main weapon and this and everything else is just a backup.

I am quite tempted to do a character who's an electro-priest linked up to some sort of projector so he can fire powerful bolts of electro-magnetic energy and I might look at giving him a more powerful shock attack.

I also worked out the profile for the 'Pariah', the servitor implanted with Necron tech - he's supposed to be a gun servitor but the Gauss Flayer does seem a bit rubbish so I suspect he'll actually spend more time hitting people with it than shooting them. But, I'll try him out in a couple of games and then see whether I need to tweak his profile.

mypunkrockisbetterthanyou
22-07-2009, 04:31
Kaled,

Could you consider using just a necron gaussflayer rod for the sword, without the cutesy swirling wire?

Or, alternatively, would you consider cutting a piece of plastic with a hobby knife into some shape?

I don't know why, but every time I read the weapon's name I also think of a scimitar shaped blade of light. Just throwing it out there.

Kudos on another excellent model.

Regards,
Rick

Heroka Vendile
22-07-2009, 16:03
great work Dave, have to say though that I'm not a fan of the energy blade =/ you get bonus points for the scarab though :D

kaled
22-07-2009, 18:12
I figured a plan bit of transparent rod, such as from a gauss flayer would look too much like a lightsaber so felt I had to do something more. I wish I'd put less wire on though - I didn't use as much on the green prototype and it looked better, but I think the varnish has glued it in place.

Inquisitor Cade
27-07-2009, 21:36
Yet another awesome model by Kaled.

In terms of the appearance of the sword I'd have taken the description a bit more literally and have found some models of a flameing torches and stacked parts of the flames, not that I could have painted it convincingly.
In terms of affect, if it is going to have the damage of a plasma weapon then it will burn through whatever fuel it relies on in no time, which could be interesting (hang on I just need to reload my sword). I don't buy that anyone short of an eldar manipulating time could deflect shots in the manner that the rule suggests. but if the blade would vaporise projectiles I presume it would also desperse the energy. If it were able to deflect las then it would look like it was wrapped in silver foil as it deflects light from all directions.

Nexus Trimean
28-07-2009, 17:32
I Have to say i dont like the sword. :< The reast looks Great.

I have never been a fan of lightsaber design. I Think something closer to the design below is more feasable (lol what am i saying) Giving it a back and cap. so that it is sort of like a controlled arc of plasma. Im thinking Something like the light blade from Blade III, But not so Crazy looking. Though at this point it is probably too late to redesign the blade, and this look is more of a personal preferance.

The 0's are the plasma, H is the handle. and the bars are the back side of the blade.
__
| 0
| 0
| 0
| 0
| 0
==
H
H
H

LazarusKing
01-08-2009, 05:53
Is it okay if I hate you a little? ;)

Another gorgeous model, but I think you'll be had pressed to top that AdMech with the glass dome, Kryzak. Though I eagerly look forward to seeing you try.

Just started ]I[ as a side project while I'm working on my main stuff, and I've discovered that I love it. The Conclave is now in one of my top 5 sites. And the fact that people churn out amazing figures like this one here just makes me more excited. I've grown tired of endless posts of truscale marines.

Now all I have to do is find someone to play the damn thing. :p

@Nexus Trimean:

Is that the sword from No More Heroes? Good choice, sir. I always thought the whole "the laser just stops" thing was a little wonky.

precinctomega
01-08-2009, 09:16
Just some thoughts on a shock blaster: if a target can pass a Toughness test to avoid being stunned then it's a pretty rubbish way of taking down servitors (who usually have rather high Toughness).

I would, rather, suggest that it do 1D10 damage and have range (15) Type Flame. Any model that takes damage after all deductions for armour is stunned for 1 turn. The stunned model must pass a Toughness test in the Recovery phase or continue to be stunned in the subsequent turn.

R.

kaled
01-08-2009, 10:34
if a target can pass a Toughness test to avoid being stunned then it's a pretty rubbish way of taking down servitors (who usually have rather high Toughness).I agree, but as there are already rules for shock weapons it seems easier to use those than make up some of my own. I'm not a fan of giving a character so many special rules that explaining them all takes up valuable playing time - she's already got enough with the sword.

The other reason I didn't make it more potent was that I figured the combination of a weapon that can too easily stun someone and a powerful sword would not win me any friends!


Is it okay if I hate you a little? ;)Yeah it's okay. I'm used to people saying that! ;) Glad you like my models.


Now all I have to do is find someone to play the damn thing. :pWhere do you live? If you're in the UK then you're welcome to come along to the next Conclave organised event. If not, then why not try to organise an event yourself?

LazarusKing
04-08-2009, 01:58
Nope, U.S.A. Barely anything for Specialist stuff in my area. I'll just have to live vicariously through others.