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w3rm
04-07-2009, 12:10
I have decided to start a daemon army. Not becase they are good but because I like the modles and background. But I play for fun. Is there such thing as a "balanced" Daemons list such as no greater damons, flesh hounds or flamers? I want to have fun, but not at my opponents expense.

EvC
04-07-2009, 12:16
Of course there is, you just... don't... take them. Obviously.

Shimmergloom
04-07-2009, 12:27
I think you can take those units, just don't go overboard and don't take all the worst combos.

For instance an army with 1 unit of hounds and 3 flamers would be a good, strong army, but should also not be considered cheese just cause you have one of each unit.

So yeah, hounds and flamers are undercosted, yes they are overpowered. But when not used in excess you should not have any shame in using them and they should not make your opponents see you as a power gamer.

w3rm
04-07-2009, 12:29
Of course there is, you just... don't... take them. Obviously.
Oh! I can see so much clearer. Thanks! I should have thought of that before.

Obviously.

The_Outsider
04-07-2009, 12:34
Oh! I can see so much clearer. Thanks! I should have thought of that before.

Obviously.

If warsser has taught me anything about daemons is that if you take them you are allergic to fun and want to alienate yourself from your gaming group.

I'm also told the side effects of that is a craving for cat blood and the random desire to consume vast quantities of pork pies - though I haven't verified these claims.

spetswalshe
04-07-2009, 12:37
It believe, on the 'bad scale', they are slightly above George Thorogood and the Destroyers, but slightly below Michael Jackson.

On the beard/cheese scale, I think it's all down to the player - a mono-god theme wouldn't be overboard, for example. Though I'm afraid it's true about the cat blood.

w3rm
04-07-2009, 12:46
If warsser has taught me anything about daemons is that if you take them you are allergic to fun and want to alienate yourself from your gaming group.

I'm also told the side effects of that is a craving for cat blood and the random desire to consume vast quantities of pork pies - though I haven't verified these claims.

... I love warhammer and I like to have fun playing a game with my friends. I like daemons too. That does not make me a powergamer at all. Just becuase I like a certain army. Thier models are cool and so is thier fluff. The POINT of this thread is to discuss wether or not I can make a balaneced list with daemnons and NOT alienate my gaming group.

No comment on the cat blood.

djkest
04-07-2009, 12:59
The models are cool but I'm not huge on the fluff. I have some 40k demons and I actually refused to use them to play fantasy, because I won't want to be cheesy.

What's so bad about demons?
They all cause fear
They don't flee
Immune to Psychology
All attacks they make are magical
They all have a ward save

How's that for a start?

The_Outsider
04-07-2009, 13:17
... I love warhammer and I like to have fun playing a game with my friends. I like daemons too.

I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

Tuch
04-07-2009, 13:55
Play whatever you want, but if you min/max your list your friends will probably not be pleased unless they are doing the same thing. This is true with many armies not just Daemons.

Base your list off the models you like and stay away from multiple special/rares, keep the power Dice under 10 (at 2250), and don't Leadership bomb and you should be fine.

BTW, I play an undivided list with a Bloodthirster, my standard opponents are 2 different Orc armies and VC and I have never had them complain about the list.

Kill-Freedom
04-07-2009, 13:55
Playing against daemons has scared me for life :cries: Even none cheese lists are hard as nails... :mad: one of the biggest noops in my gaming group massacred my vampires with them LOL, and when i say massacred i didnt stand a chance, out matched in every way... :o

Oh and the dice gods forsakened me :(

djkest
04-07-2009, 15:40
Leadership bomb is very lame. Especially the masque. Makes me wish I could have missile troops just to kill her. Don't take that and you should be OK.

One way to make a "non-cheesy" army would be variety. You could take say a unit of plaguebearers, a unit of bloodletters, a unit of pink horrors. The troops are all pretty good but aren't insanely good. Heralds are great, some people don't like them, but that is their problem I guess.

Troah
04-07-2009, 15:48
Yeah I have no clue how people find Demons overpowered. I used them twice and lost pretty bad even when I was tried to be as cheesy as possible.

maze ironheart
04-07-2009, 16:45
I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

You kidding this detectors off the chart (Detector explodes) as for deamons it just seems like a witch hunt I like but hate them some times depends on the armys build.

w3rm
04-07-2009, 16:54
I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

Whoops sorry Outsider. I guess it was. I was sleeping in a hut made of sticks the night before and wasn't thinking straight. And it rained.

Taekada
04-07-2009, 17:55
Easy Soloution for non- cheesy Daemons.

Mono list is usally a good place to start.

No Leadership Bomb.

I play Pure Khorne done up as Fallen Eldar who Worship Khaine. I ahve a Daemon Prince ( using a 40K eldar Avatar Model ).

I even feild Chariots !

Lots of Fun. Balanced as I have zero shooting and next to no magic.

Greater Daemons are another source of contention. I find they never make their points back.

Best of Luck with your quest for a balanced Daemon list.

*No Leadership Bomb
*Mono Themed
* No Greater Daemons
* No Special Characters.

Hope that helps.~G~

fubukii
04-07-2009, 18:08
they are a very powerful army as most of thier units are at least decent. One of the main problems i feel, is that the overpowered units are very cheap in comparison both point wise and money wise to the more balanced choices.

For example 6 flamers is roughly 30-35 USD, and 210 pts. 4 fiends or crushers, is roughly 80-90 USD and 220 pts or 280 points and not nearly as effective.

Granted daemons can make a few OP army builds but all armies can.

Gaargod
04-07-2009, 18:39
Um, be careful with mono-Nurgle. Its still very easy to break (and in fact can be very harsh, using Epidemus and banners of poison = double combat res, 2 more heralds and a GUO. 4 extremely hard to kill anvils who beat up most stuff in combat).

Mono Tzeentch is usually evil too. That many power dice is basically a gunline.

Mono slaanesh and khorne, whilst still usually very good lists, aren't as bad. Bloodletters and daemonettes are lacklustre compared to a lot of things. Bloodcrushers and beasts of nurgle are expensive and the daemon princes are laughably bad (they're not only bad internally, but they're actually bad externally).

Don't take special characters. Really, really don't take Skulltaker, Masque or Kairos. Epidemus is also a no no in nurgle lists.

Zee
04-07-2009, 19:26
People I will moan no matter what units you take,

The game is not perfectly balenced and there will always be armies that are slightly stronger, basically due to the way army books are realeased and the complexity of the game.

At the moment Daemons are one of the top armies, however they are not as overpowered as many people will try to tell you. There isnt much different between them and the rest of the amries, people just try to so it is to make a reason why they lost and because everyone at the end of the days likes a good moan ;)

My advice is go for the most fun units you want

Witchblade
04-07-2009, 19:40
Yeah I have no clue how people find Demons overpowered. I used them twice and lost pretty bad even when I was tried to be as cheesy as possible.
Your signature doesn't really aid your argument.

I applaud your honesty though (that or my sarcasm meter is broken as well).

isidril93
04-07-2009, 19:46
go for...
daemon prince
daemonettes
nurglings
beasts
or a mix of the above with the normal ones...these are apparently the worst of each unit type

bluu
04-07-2009, 19:52
I'd say Heraldless, non-min/maxed core choices is a nice way to play un-cheesy daemons. A three-man flamer unit isn't that tough, and taking a daemon prince seems to generally be the way to go for friendly lists. Playing without a BSB makes your daemons more vurnerable to break tests, and easier to pop. As long as you take a varied army list with only one unit of any type, I'd say your probably not going to meet too many reluctant opponents.

My two cents...

Tokamak
04-07-2009, 19:56
Indeed, pick one god and stick with it, your army will look better and it turns the cheese on a slightely lower volume.

Shamfrit
04-07-2009, 20:01
Daemons are very easy to balance in terms of toning them down for a still competative but not disgusting game - if you're in a gaming group that expects you to hold back the punches, I advise the following:

1) Buy a baseball bat.

(Cough, just kidding!)

Follow these 5 simple steps:

1. No more than one of any rare, or two of any special slot, so 10 Fleshounds is fine, 5-6 flamers is fine, 12 flamers and 15+ flesh hounds most certainly is not.

2. Do not take Obsidian Armour on your Thirster, anything else is fair game.

3. Do not take more than one special character, Changeling and Karanak included - only exception to this is if you don't take a Greater Daemon, in which case 2 is okay.

4. Have no stubborn appear in the army, and at least 1 non-msu non Locus Core unit, say, 15 Bloodletters without Herald - dynamic fighting force, so you're not bunkering EVERY unit. In fact, no MSU at all.

5. Any signs of complaints after you've followed these steps - tell your mate (ex-mate) to kindly find something else to do, or up his game.

Brought to you by Shamfrit's Bucket of 'Replying to Daemon Threads.'

Nuada
04-07-2009, 20:10
If you really love the daemons models so much, use the models but count them as an orc army :D That way noone will complain, and you'll be able to take lots and lots of those daemon models.



...i meant that facetiously :)

Sarah S
04-07-2009, 21:27
Daemons are a great army, and haven't even dominated a major tourney in quite a while now.

The whingers no longer have a case against them.

Leogun_91
04-07-2009, 22:39
What's so bad about demons?
They all cause fear
They don't flee
Immune to Psychology
All attacks they make are magical
They all have a ward save

How's that for a start?Undeads have that except the last two and Forestspirit armies have most of that as well.


Um, be careful with mono-Nurgle. Its still very easy to break (and in fact can be very harsh, using Epidemus and banners of poison = double combat res, 2 more heralds and a GUO. 4 extremely hard to kill anvils who beat up most stuff in combat).A magicheavy army with acces to lore of fire is going to be though against them however and the plaugebearers are pretty slow so will have problems reaching you´r line (furies are not that tough) magic heavy Helfs would be my counter of this I think, and if you have Epidemus I might as well borrow a Teclis togheter with the rest of the army.

Bodysnatcher
05-07-2009, 09:09
I play a mono Tzeentch army, having had it from pre storm of chaos. I play a LoC, bluescribes (very proud of my conversion), BSB Herald, 3 units of horrors (one includes the changeling - another conversion I like) and four screamers.
It isn't an idiot proof army by any means - the amount of times I lose the only effective weapon in my arsenal thanks to cube of darkness, vortex shard or ring of hotek is extreme. The units don't dish it out enough in combat to break an opponent just by walking at them. I'm usually quite surprised to have the LoC survive the battle if my opponent has more than 1 warmachine.
I do get annoyed when people assume that I'm only a good player because I have daemons - I've been playing for years with other armies and had the same effectiveness. If you're really annoyed about someone's daemon list do a swap game - you play each other with your own armies, then you swap over and play again. I've only done it a few times but I can usually beat my own army with someone elses.

LonelyPath
05-07-2009, 14:48
I field a Slaanesh/Nurgle list and don't use Leadership Bomb (I use the Masque mini as a regular herald), not had any complaints and it fairs pretty well in battle.

Stronginthearm
05-07-2009, 18:07
People I will moan no matter what units you take,

The game is not perfectly balenced and there will always be armies that are slightly stronger, basically due to the way army books are realeased and the complexity of the game.

At the moment Daemons are one of the top armies, however they are not as overpowered as many people will try to tell you. There isnt much different between them and the rest of the amries, people just try to so it is to make a reason why they lost and because everyone at the end of the days likes a good moan ;)

My advice is go for the most fun units you want

Thank you, I really have that problem too, My vampires are about 50/50 win loss, and I still get dirty looks from Bret players and who consistantly mash my poor goblins into little bits, go for what sounds like a good idea

yorch
05-07-2009, 22:02
You should play whatever you want... really. The Daemon armylist is unbalanced ok, but I've only seen all this daemon hate/whining in warseer... I'm fed up with the daemon hate in this forum. I've been in other forums and they are just considered a top tier army, not the "ohmygodoverpowerznezzzz". I am not going to feel guilty or cheesy just because of the whining of anonymus people.

An army is not cheesy, only players and lists. If you field the troops you like, for sure the list will be fine, unless you only love horrors, flesh hounds and flamers models :D

I've been playing "all daemons armies" since the 5th ed (so it's unlikely anyone could recriminate me anything about using them). I like to play dual god lists, as the army is unbalanced and it's really hard to get a good magic defence without tzeentch. After many many battles, the combinations you should avoid for a "friendly" game are these:

-Max flamers: In fact, this is the one and only unit my friends complain about, but they agree that getting one is not cheesy, as nearly every new army has undercosted units (IE: DE Hydra, Stegadon, Knights of chaos...)

-Max hounds: One or two 5-6 hound units at 2000 points is fine... getting more is a bit abusive...

-Max horrors: Your magic phase can get brutal with them... If you don't like to play against ultra magic heavy vampires... probably you understand the point.

-Leadership bombing: It's not even funny for the daemon player... Sure, It's funny the first time you call pandemonium with your keeper, but the second time you feel guilty :evilgrin: (pandemonium + banner of despair + terror)

-Don't use special characters: IIRC, all SC's since the vampire armybook are just abusive. Sure, some may be fine, but the majority of them are not... I would field The Masque, Bluescribes or the Skulltaker even if their point costs were doubled...

-Greater daemons usually do not worth their points... maybe a bloodthirster... but in general they are too risky at 2k points... I don't understad the complaining about them... really.

If you keep in mind these 5 "rules", all your friends should be happy. I've found that daemons are "cheese correctors" (I think I've spelled it wrong). I a friend of yours uses an abusive list, the next game you could just crush him, in order to get the game at a normal powerlevel... tailored daemon lists are just brutal...

BirchbarktheAncient
05-07-2009, 22:08
Demons are not tough at all. They have been ridiculously overrated. I have been the so-called "unbeatable" Nurgle demons with my Temple of Khaine Dark Elf army.

Lazarus15
06-07-2009, 02:30
The from high elves and on, all the newer books have nasty abilities and ways to deal with pretty much any threat. I showed my friends how to defeat my Tzeentch army (LOC, one chariot, 2 heralds, x2 31 man blocks, 1 10 man block, 3 screamers, 3 flamers) and with the newer armies it is now an awesome challenge which is a load off my mind so I can play my army that I love without feelng like a d bag.

PARTYCHICORITA
06-07-2009, 03:25
The issues pointed out by yorch are right on target. And the fact that you can go and do all that on a single 2Kpts list is whats actually wrong with DoC. Between characters and horrors you can have 11+PD and still have points for a bunch of hounds and flamers.

Roark
06-07-2009, 06:08
These are the things that I find generate bad reactions (with me and others):

- Leadership bomb
- Maxed Flamers (I roll dice, you remove lots of models = not a lot of fun)
- Maxed Hounds (remember, these guys are basically Chaos Knights with ward saves and ITP. They are hard as nails.)
- Maxed power dice Tzeentch (Horrors spam + Heralds + LoC etc)
- Bloodthirster with Immortal Fury and/or Obsidian Armour
- More than one big Plaguebearer block with Heralds (2 BIG tarpits just ain't fun)
- Kairos Fateweaver (possibly the most undercosted character in the entire of Warhammer)
- Any other Special Characters for that matter, except maybe Skarbrand and Kugath who are overcosted.

Just my $0.02.

Vermin-thing
06-07-2009, 06:34
How balanced are the two scribes? If not at all. I'v never played with or ageist them seeing as there's no model for them!

Fenrir
06-07-2009, 10:13
- Maxed Hounds (remember, these guys are basically Chaos Knights with ward saves and ITP. They are hard as nails.).

Chaos knights without the armour.

Vermin-thing
06-07-2009, 10:16
Chaos knights without the armour.

But with a 5+ non removable ward which makes cannons go poof.

Lord Zarkov
06-07-2009, 11:18
And two wounds

Vermin-thing
06-07-2009, 11:23
AND movement 8. :cheese:

kramplarv
06-07-2009, 11:35
Demons are not tough at all. They have been ridiculously overrated. I have been the so-called "unbeatable" Nurgle demons with my Temple of Khaine Dark Elf army.


which just points out that the worst matchup for a nurglearmy is the 3+ KB attacks från all your units...

DE are the best army in the game. As soon as a skilled player get his hands on an DE army, he will win. Everytime. Unless he gets bad luck. DoC and VC are failsafe, idiotproof armies. But since they lack a lot of flexibility they will loose out in the long run against DE.

Ixquic
06-07-2009, 11:41
1+ armor save, 3/2+ ward save character in a unit of practically unbreakable elite troops with a 5+ ward save is pretty idiot proof as well.

Lijacote
06-07-2009, 11:59
But with a 5+ non removable ward which makes cannons go poof.

Cannons explode because hounds have a 33% possibility of saving?

This thread reeks of fanaticism (not aimed at Vermin-thing in specific), people using pretty strong words.

yorch
06-07-2009, 13:42
1+ armor save, 3/2+ ward save character in a unit of practically unbreakable elite troops with a 5+ ward save is pretty idiot proof as well.

With people like you (you in plural, I quoted you because this was the last insulting post, no offense), I don't understad why this forum is still alive. Warseer is full os this ****.

I am really tired of you (plural). If you can't win, go play checkers, but leave people alone. I've won with skavens against daemons with a non SAD list... It was not an easy battle, but for god's sake, stop whining for your inability to win battles.

Warhammer is unbalanced... it's been unbalanced since 4th ed at least (when I started playin). Get over with it. This doesn't give you ANY right to INSULT anyone. I am SURE you don't say these kind of words to your friends. It's just the internet and it's ability to post anonimously (bad spelling for sure). You don't have to charge the rest with your personal frustration. Hell, 40k orks are OTT too, and there's not so much whining...

This forum is turning out to be a hostile one for certain people... and this is SAD.

You know, no one plays fair, never... Back in 6th ed, when I used all daemon lists (non-SoC) noone complained about the ward save for cannons... because they win almost all the time. Now, this hability turns out to be overpowered?! Come on... You know, bretonia has a ward save+good armour save, and noone complains about it..nor do I. If you use cannons to kill daemons is just your fault... barring the plaguebearers, flesh hounds and flamers, the rest of the units die easily... use bows, not cannons... sure you'll get better results. GD's are not better than any general with dragon... in fact they are worse (yeah, they could have magical habilities, but you cannot afford a miscast with a mini that is a 3rd of your army).

I am thinking of leaving this forum... seriously... I really like to read this forum (I don't post that much, but I read a lot), but I am thinking of quitting... At least other forums are not a whinefest...

PS: To the quote... the unit you talk about costs at least 400 hundred points. It´s relatively slow and expensive. You should be able to outmanouver it and flank charge it. With 12 points a pop for the cheapest models and 24 and up points per mini (special and singular units) you SHOULD outnumber daemons, even with HE... The majority of daemon units don't get well with prolongued combats also...

EvC
06-07-2009, 14:40
I'm fairly certain there's a whole lot more hostility and whinging in that last post than in all the rest of the entire thread put together.

Note that Ixquic was just stating the facts of how powerful the character is. When the mere repetition of a model's stats causes you to explode with rage about peoples' whining, then there's probably something gone wrong somewhere.

Ixquic
06-07-2009, 14:54
Seriously I was pretty surprised that THAT was the post to make someone flip out in anger. Not sure what his rage out had to do with a really powerful unit, character combination but whatever!

yorch
06-07-2009, 15:00
I'm fairly certain there's a whole lot more hostility and whinging in that last post than in all the rest of the entire thread put together.

Note that Ixquic was just stating the facts of how powerful the character is. When the mere repetition of a model's stats causes you to explode with rage about peoples' whining, then there's probably something gone wrong somewhere.

Well, you could start by reading the posts in this forums, 1/5 are "daemons/VC/DE are overpowered"... As I wrote, I have nothing personal against Ixquic, it's just an example. I've seen far more annoying and insulting posts. As I said, just an example. In any case, "idiot proof" is not the same as saying "overpowered". To say "flamers" are overpowered/undercosted, it's not the same that insulting the player who uses them...

And yes, I've exploded, because there have been 3 realeases since DoC, but the whining is still in each daemon thread. I just can't stand the bashing anymore. SoC list was better than the 7th ed one, but no one complained back then.

PS: As a side note, I don't use khorne lists, but anyway...

Fenrir
06-07-2009, 15:32
Generic weekly daemon moaning thread. How many times has this subject got to be done?

Shamfrit
06-07-2009, 15:41
Generic weekly daemon moaning thread. How many times has this subject got to be done?

According to form, at least one per week, and within an hour of that said thread being posted (this one is an exception as it's title is spelt correctly, and observes this wonderful little rule of form called 'grammar,') at least three others will appear, such as 'Why Daemon's Dun't Suxxors11!@' and 'How To Beat Daemons' - both of which completely disregard the lengthy Tacticas available in the Fantasy Tactics forum.

However, this one went downhill as soon as someone had to resort to flexing of bratwursts and badly disguised insults behind 'look at me I'm swearing' censorship. For the record, Warhammer was broken the day it was released, it's just taken some people this long to realise they've been whining everyday of their life about something to do with the company, game or players, and 25 or so years is a long time to waste.

w3rm
06-07-2009, 16:23
well I got the book yesterday and picked up 20 bloodletters and 10 horrors and did a quick 400 pt game vs my bros tk. Let me just say soulhunger on a herald of khorne in the first round of combat is brutal. Every turn he was doing at least 2 wounds. And for the record this wasn't supposed to be a whining thread about daemons. I was asking if daemons can be used in friendly games and not destroy everything. Jeez..

Lijacote
06-07-2009, 16:40
well I got the book yesterday and picked up 20 bloodletters and 10 horrors and did a quick 400 pt game vs my bros tk. Let me just say soulhunger on a herald of khorne in the first round of combat is brutal. Every turn he was doing at least 2 wounds. And for the record this wasn't supposed to be a whining thread about daemons. I was asking if daemons can be used in friendly games and not destroy everything. Jeez..

Assuming we have the same book, it's not even a petite wonder you won. You had (at least) almost 500 points with at least 365 (assuming you had the herald with the 'letters) points invested in one unit.. go go peculiar breaking mechanics and a deathstar in a very small game.

I'm going to assume that was a typo and you did mean 500 points, not 400.

Now I'm going to look like a bad guy.

Zee
06-07-2009, 17:02
People will always moan about the current " strongest " army. It's better to just ignore them and let them as moaning makes no difference.

I find that most people who moan about Daemons loose because they get too nervous or worried about the reputation of an army that they loose focus.

if you stick to your guns and dont get intimitated just because someone plonks down a Blood Thirster that you can usually win through tactics if your good enough.

Ixquic
06-07-2009, 17:13
if you stick to your guns and dont get intimitated just because someone plonks down a Blood Thirster that you can usually win through tactics if your good enough.

And this is why the army is unbalanced. The non demon player has to be on his A game and use super "tactics" (which are vague and never really explained what they are other than have lots of troops or flank stuff or whatever) while the demon player can just bring some stupid all comers list.

Yes any army can beat any army, that's indisputable. But even the people claiming that there is no real imbalance always talk about how people just need to work out X strategies to beat demons but strangely the topic of "how do my demons beat Y army" never seems to come up.

I agree that this thread is totally played out though. If you don't have fun playing against demons, don't play against them and lots of tournies have demons heavily comped against as they should be anyway. If you're playing in hard boyz or whatever you have no business crying about unfair broken rules. It's really that simple.

kramplarv
06-07-2009, 19:04
The thing is not that the Demons are good or strong. that's not the issue. The issue is that for the casual gamer demons and VC are the strongest armies, since they are very stable armies which always do what you want them to do. (almost all the time).

But as almost all tournaments in the world can tell you, DoC are not as often in top10 as VC. And very rarly in the top-3. top3 are VC,LM and DE. So DoC are a powerful army, But not the army to end all armies.

Anyway, this is not a demon bashing thread. No one has bashed them. In fact, a lot of answers to the thread are very solid and good and constructive answers. so, Yorch. please leave the Warseer forum. No one would miss you and your negative attitude...

Dexter099
06-07-2009, 19:10
As bad as posts like these that are asked quite a bit.

Warseer gets twenty of these every day. It's ok, I guess.

Lord Inquisitor
06-07-2009, 19:32
As far as building a list that people will find least objectionable, my advice is pick your army based on the models you like best. That way you are unlikely to hit any particularly reviled combination, regardless of whether you play mono-god or a mixed list.

Yes, these threads continue to abound. I find the Daemon army book to be a failure in many ways. I've been playing a mono-Slaanesh Ld-bomb for a while. I reckon it's somewhat overpowered but it has its weaknesses - but my main problem is that it isn't any fun to play against. Thing is, I started this army way back with the Hordes of Chaos list (which sucked pretty badly for pure-daemons). Now I've been playing with it for a while I'm already looking for another list to consider, but I've only just finished painting this army up and I don't want to start from scratch again. Somewhat frustrating.

w3rm
06-07-2009, 21:57
Assuming we have the same book, it's not even a petite wonder you won. You had (at least) almost 500 points with at least 365 (assuming you had the herald with the 'letters) points invested in one unit.. go go peculiar breaking mechanics and a deathstar in a very small game.

I'm going to assume that was a typo and you did mean 500 points, not 400.

Now I'm going to look like a bad guy.

I should have been clearer it was 400 pts.

I had 10 letters 10 horrors and a herald of khorne with soul hunger. He had a scorpion a priest and at least 20 archers. I got flank by the scorpion and it killed about 5 letters before it crumbled. The archers were easy prey for my horrors and even 4 letters and a herald killed about 7 per turn

Lijacote
06-07-2009, 22:00
I should have been clearer it was 400 pts.

I had 10 letters 10 horrors and a herald of khorne with soul hunger. He had a scorpion a priest and at least 20 archers. I got flank by the scorpion and it killed about 5 letters before it crumbled. The archers were easy prey for my horrors and even 4 letters and a herald killed about 7 per turn

Well, damn. Wouldn't the scorpion have served better by doing in the horrors? I'm hoping the tomb kings... oh, I see.

I'm going to pin this (figurative or literal) massacre on Tomb Kings being an old book with weakness at lower battle sizes, and daemons being a new book with many strengths at all levels.

Dag
07-07-2009, 01:56
one thing i find funny is you see 10 people complaining about another deamons thread and adding nothing to the thread. why do you read it if youve seen it 18294 times and hate them.

but anyways, on topic.

doc are a very strong army. its well rounded, and has all the phases, and spec rules to make it a top contender.
the problem occurs when you match them up pt for pt against other units, and add in their special rules, and equipment. they come up as more expensive than they actually are.

Personally i dont care, i just like playing. ill play daemons, but never kairos + plaguebearers, hounds and flamers. purely cuz id get angry.

Daemons have ways to nueter (bad spelling) the opposition. their anvil unit has 5ward4regen t4 unbreakable, cant ask for much more. their hammer has 2ws5str5 attacks a model, m8!! mr3!!!! and of course... 5ward!

not bashing daemons. but its undeniable that they have powerful everything. sure DE VC LM may be the top contenders at tournies because their units working together as a army works better than daemons individually.

the problem comes from casual games, where its a decent gen vs a decent gen, friendly lists.

whatever way you wanna go with daemons you have a list that can contend with a heavy list.

its not the winners fault he has a bigger stick lol.

Phazael
07-07-2009, 02:23
For the record, when was the last time that DoC won Overall or even Best General in a GT? Dark General in Seattle is the last one I remember (Best General) and Inman from San Fran took the Slaughter last October. All the other GTs were taken by other armies, with VC and DE being the most prevalent.

That said, if all the people in a given group are new, it is the second most idiotproof army out there, in the hands of a novice. It also dominates in the most important phase of the game, close combat. The real problem with the army is its extreme flexibility. You can build ten different lists out of the book and they will all play very differently, so people cannot make simple assumptions about the army when they face it.

pcgamer72
07-07-2009, 03:14
For the record, when was the last time that DoC won Overall or even Best General in a GT? Dark General in Seattle is the last one I remember (Best General) and Inman from San Fran took the Slaughter last October. All the other GTs were taken by other armies, with VC and DE being the most prevalent.

That said, if all the people in a given group are new, it is the second most idiotproof army out there, in the hands of a novice. It also dominates in the most important phase of the game, close combat. The real problem with the army is its extreme flexibility. You can build ten different lists out of the book and they will all play very differently, so people cannot make simple assumptions about the army when they face it.

Well... I know Daemons took 1st overall at Sooiepalooza this year. I know they finished 2nd at Capital City Carnage (sandwiched between 2 VC players). Adepticon Championships... I know Daemons were 2nd and the first place guy could very well have been, but I am not positive on that, so I'm not going to say it for sure. That's a few.

EvC
07-07-2009, 12:31
Well Daemons did win the entire UK GT, does that count? They also won the South Coast GT I believe, and the only reason they're not tearing up the scene is because almost every tournament has had to turn to comp or restrictions.


Yes, these threads continue to abound. I find the Daemon army book to be a failure in many ways. I've been playing a mono-Slaanesh Ld-bomb for a while. I reckon it's somewhat overpowered but it has its weaknesses - but my main problem is that it isn't any fun to play against. Thing is, I started this army way back with the Hordes of Chaos list (which sucked pretty badly for pure-daemons). Now I've been playing with it for a while I'm already looking for another list to consider, but I've only just finished painting this army up and I don't want to start from scratch again. Somewhat frustrating. [/COLOR]

Why don't you just switch out the anti-LD aspects of the army for more interesting items? Nothing in the game forces you to use -2LD Banner and the like, and you certainly can't blame the models...

Swissdictator
07-07-2009, 14:04
As has been said, avoid some of the uber combos and it should be fine.

One of my friends plays demons, he has two blocks of bloodletters, a block of daemonettes, a block of horrors, a single unit of flesh hounds... a unit of 3-4 flamers (one is upgraded to a champ) he might have blood crushers.

He usually has a Khorne BSB and a Slaanesh Herald, and some sort of Lord (occassionally it is a Daemon Prince).

Basically we've agreed as long as he doesn't do a Bloodthirster+Stubborn banner combo, it's fine. As with Daemons, it'll be strong, but it's not making me want to eat my own eyeballs.

What's cool is he has stuff from each God, except for Nurgle... because I play Nurgle when I play Chaos. His whole theme is based around fighting Nurgle, considering I'm his main opponent (Though I could be playing Empire, Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarfs, VC, Daemons, O&G, or Brets...)


I love Nurgle. I have mono-god Nurgle Daemons. Until recently I thought Nurgling Infestation was only on my turn, so I took it for laughs. While I'm rethinking that I will still take Nurglings simply because I think they are cool, probably two 4 base strong units. I never take more than two heralds. It's a *tough* list, but I keep it thematic. I might go light magic with them, I might not. I admit I love taking the GUO simply because I have one of the first ones they released.



For me, as long as there is some sort of theme going on I don't mind as much... which ties into min maxing. Doing the 2 units of PB with herals, unit of horrors, units of flesh hounds, and flamer spam, with a Thirster... is not "undivided"... but is just being a power gamer. However... having 3 different God's core units... that's fairly undivided in my book.

As long as you have a theme, and stick to it... as opposed to building a list and creating a theme to justify it... you're fine.

Basically the best mantra is "tough, but not a jerk." If you find yourself saying "There's no way I can lose"... rethink it. If you take a Greater Daemon, perhaps don't fully tool him up. Make him good, sure... but maybe leave that extra 25-50 points of powers untouched.





Have lots of infantry, they help make your army look more like a true army.

Lord Inquisitor
07-07-2009, 19:16
Why don't you just switch out the anti-LD aspects of the army for more interesting items? Nothing in the game forces you to use -2LD Banner and the like, and you certainly can't blame the models...
But... they make me take it!

I was thinking the same, at least for friendly games. There are other magic banners, or I could actually just not take a magic banner :eek: Is that even allowed?

maaksel
07-07-2009, 19:42
I plan on making an entirely slaanesh themed army, for both 40k and fantasy - just need to get around to figuring out how to use square and round bases...

60 deamonettes, 15 steeds, 6 fiends, heralds and demon prince (possibly keeper)

Bodysnatcher
08-07-2009, 06:34
Put models on round bases. Then when playing WHFB, blu-tack them, round base and all, to square bases.

CrownAxe
08-07-2009, 08:58
You can use them on Square bases in 40K since they come with them

xpo50
09-07-2009, 23:36
You can honestly make any army cheesy. A Lizardman army with three engines is just as tough to beat, or an empire army with a gazillion tanks, or a wood elf army with onyl forest spirits. Any army can be cheesy, daemons are the same as any other army.Obviously you cant ever perfectly balance 14 armies (I think), its too much, that is why tactics come into play. No matter how cheesy an army, there is always a way to beat it. You just have to think

kramplarv
09-07-2009, 23:37
I plan on making an entirely slaanesh themed army, for both 40k and fantasy - just need to get around to figuring out how to use square and round bases...

60 deamonettes, 15 steeds, 6 fiends, heralds and demon prince (possibly keeper)

or make all on square bases. Since in 40k you can have whatever base you like. In fantasy the bases are very important. :)

Vermin-thing
10-07-2009, 03:55
I've seen people put daemons with round bases onto the appropriate sized movement try. Square bases in 40K aren't ideal since you can fit more models then you would have been able to with round bases. Just make sure all your characters, and skirmishers are all on square bases.

Roark
10-07-2009, 04:09
Yeah, if you want to play both systems, you just base your guys with round bases and use movement trays with "cookie" cutouts... It's quite nifty.

NakedBarbarian
10-07-2009, 09:29
If you like Daemons i say roll with it and bugger what everyone else thinks you should do. Pretty much all lists can be cheesed out to the max. Take the units you want and if people cry cheese than you can always find another cheese list to play against.

I play WoC and am half way though collecting a DoC army. My plan so far is
Bloodthirster
Herald of Tz on disk
20 bloodletters
10 Daemonettes
10 Daemonettes
20 horrors
6 furies
5 seekers
6 flamers

I dont think its that cheesy, theres like 5 core units there for a 2k list and i have SFA upgrades on my characters. I basically just wanna use the models i like.

So do what you want. Afterall its an expensive hobby you should spend your hard earned money on the models you like, play the list you want, play the opponents you want, and if they're gonna grizzle and cry bugger them.

Ixquic
10-07-2009, 12:38
The problem of "but I'm taking lots of core" with demons is that your core is better than most army's special choices for what they do/cost when you factor in the herald abilities and in some case are better than other army's hero choices (Horrors).

To take what you say, it's an expensive hobby and if you buy a demon list that ends up being so unfun to play against you only get to use it at tournies where people have to play you, it's not a good use of your money.

EvC
10-07-2009, 16:42
Still, it looks like a decent army to me. If he has no upgrades to characters, then it's especially fantastic (A Bloodthirster without re-rolls- they DO exist after all!!). I've never seen a Daemon player using a Herald on Disc before, because they're considered sub-optimal (Yeah, can't have a sub-optimal unit in an overpowered army, can you?), so all in all it looks pretty decent. Even with 6 Flamers.

Ixquic
10-07-2009, 16:54
Oh yeah I've seen MUCH worse. Typically (at least from what I've seen) the heralds go on flying chariots to negate ranks and get some protection. Just that core doesn't necessarily mean the list is any friendlier when demons are concerned.