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Troah
05-07-2009, 17:46
My friend sometimes uses Cold One riders and when he does he has about 15-20 in a unit. Now my time on Warseer tells me that should be a no-no but seeing as how I suck just that much I'm not 100% sure :D. So what do you think? Is 15-20 Cold One Riders in a single unit tactically advantageous?
Also sometimes this unit is also lead my Malus Darkblade.

Ultimate Life Form
05-07-2009, 17:54
This is not really a Dark Elf question but rather about cavalry in general. Of course you are free to stick as many models in a unit as you want, but in case of cavalry it is not very advantageous. 20 COK don't strike harder than 5 but cost four times as many points. Considering most of them will never see actual combat, it is a huge waste of points. Cavalry usually breaks targets on the charge and doesn't have to rely on additional ranks and in situations where they do, you're probably playing them wrong. Filling ranks with cavalry? This is a VERY expensive +1 to combat result.

Troah
05-07-2009, 17:57
I also forgot to add in that we don't play 6 turn matches. We play to the death.

Ultimate Life Form
05-07-2009, 18:00
Ah, yes, I forgot. Well, in that case, other tactics may apply. I understand COK are very tough, hard-to-kill units, that may be why your opponent takes them, but I'm still inclined to believe he would benefit more from multiple smaller units. However, it may be a matter of Special Slot competition...

sulla
05-07-2009, 20:43
Usually a bad choice with cold ones. A failed stupidity test or two can mean the unit does nothing all game. Also, even with 2+ ranks, they are still vulnerable to being flanked because they don't have ridiculous numbers of attacks per model like, say, khorne knights who can sometimes win combats when flanked due to having someone in the rear rank. Also, they are not immune to psych. A single panic test can run them off.

The other big problem with them is hatred. You must pursue. This means you may be charged by a palty unit, leaving one alive who autobreaks dragging you after them into a trap prepared by your opponent.

You say your opponent runs them with malus darkblade... I would say this is a neccessity for this unit. Probably the ASF banner too. You can do it, but it's not the best way to use them.

Witchblade
05-07-2009, 21:03
Along with the list of disadvantages mentioned above, such a unit would suck in prolonged combat (no S6).

In short, it's a really, really crappy point investment.

Troah
05-07-2009, 21:49
:D These are the kind of things I fight against all the time and I've only won a handful of matches. Even with using tactics employed here at Warseer.

sulla
05-07-2009, 23:51
What army are you using. The biggest and easiest exploit against a unit this size (if you don't have the tools to smash it in combat), is to just feed it cheap stuff each turn to stop it 'earning it's points back' in combat. If a unit costs 600-1000pts and is only good in combat, feed it sub-100pt units as neccessary while you destroy the enemy. Warhammer is not always about smashing the best enemy units with your best units. You can go the other way and smash poor enemy units with your best while tieing up the best of the enemy with your cheapest...

n00bLord
06-07-2009, 02:41
What I want to know is how do you have such a poor record?

Any ways I have a buddy who plays DE now, and my main is Skaven which for his army size tends to be around 1000pts. He runs 10 cold one knights and has a cold one knight dread lord too. Seeing they're very survivable troops I rely on bogging them down with slaves (cheap unit vs expensive unit) and usually backing the slaves up with Plague Monks that heavily outnumber them and work on winning combats and running them off.

Or I shoot them with a rattling gun or a warplightning cannon (so long as they don't go pop.) they're not much of an issue. Unless they make themselves an issue. A cavalry unit that size is very restricted due to its size. Like above, feed it cheap units that bog them down, but don't just throw away your smaller guys either. Life ain't cheap (for some).

You may need to change your mindset on how your playing.

Bar that, swap to Skaven, invest in the horde, and enjoy life.

Wolfblaze
06-07-2009, 02:41
Tell him to take two units of 6 instead, there are many benefits, all of which have been intoned before, however specifically with cold ones if you have two units, and if one fails a stupidity roll, you still hav your other ones :P
Gud luk

Troah
06-07-2009, 03:39
What army are you using.

Bretonnia & Lizardmen. Currently I'm more Lizardmen till Bret's come out for 7th.


What I want to know is how do you have such a poor record?

Ummmm...join the club?





Bar that, swap to Skaven, invest in the horde, and enjoy life.
Ewww no. I'm not a fan of giant chaos infested rats.

n00bLord
06-07-2009, 21:54
You mentioned earlier you play to the very end instead of the six turn fair. Is this with a majority of your games? Also with your two armies could you gives us a list of what models you currently own?

Troah
06-07-2009, 22:04
You mentioned earlier you play to the very end instead of the six turn fair. Is this with a majority of your games? Also with your two armies could you gives us a list of what models you currently own?

Most of our matches are to the death. Sometimes we do king of the hill or take & hold. Mostly I proxy a lot of my things. So far I have 15 KotR/Errants, 16 Saurus, and an Engine Of The Gods.

n00bLord
06-07-2009, 23:26
This may sound like a dumb question but are dice rounded off on the edges or are they completely square? Square dice tend to roll better generally. (Except I use the 30 dice G Dub sells but mine are blessed by the Horned Rat, seemingly I roll great with them. Every one else doesn't.)

What is the usual size game you play points wise? You've also pointed out all the tactica you've found here hasn't helped much either. Its either in the dice, you as a general making poor choices or your opponent(s) are like amazing. Play some points games with the standard 6 turns rule even if you don't particularly enjoy it.

Some of my buddies had been doing "plop everything on the field and go" for a while and I introduced them to proper points games and they enjoyed it alot better. Can you describe to me the way you play and your gaming mindset?

There is something thats being done wrong, lets get it fixed!

Troah
07-07-2009, 03:26
This may sound like a dumb question but are dice rounded off on the edges or are they completely square? Square dice tend to roll better generally. (Except I use the 30 dice G Dub sells but mine are blessed by the Horned Rat, seemingly I roll great with them. Every one else doesn't.)

What is the usual size game you play points wise? You've also pointed out all the tactica you've found here hasn't helped much either. Its either in the dice, you as a general making poor choices or your opponent(s) are like amazing. Play some points games with the standard 6 turns rule even if you don't particularly enjoy it.

Some of my buddies had been doing "plop everything on the field and go" for a while and I introduced them to proper points games and they enjoyed it alot better. Can you describe to me the way you play and your gaming mindset?

There is something thats being done wrong, lets get it fixed!

We normally play 2,000 to 3,000. Most of our dice are square, a few rounded. We've played some 6-turn VP games but we seem to enjoy it less then what we normally play. Normally I play with each unit supporting another unit. Normally I always have a unit ready to counter charge/protect the flanks of another unit always. I try to out maneuver so I can get behind their lines and take out anything that's hurting like war machines with my fliers or fast cavalry. I don't really go into a battle thinking I'll win, I go in thinking how can I make this fun, and make this another epic battle.

n00bLord
07-07-2009, 04:46
Well your going in having a great mindset, that's awesome. Maybe what you could try is breaking down into 500 pt games and getting better acustomed to your units and what they can and can't do. If your not using magic, try it out, and does your friend usually tailor his lists to better fight yours?

Troah
07-07-2009, 17:48
Well your going in having a great mindset, that's awesome. Maybe what you could try is breaking down into 500 pt games and getting better acustomed to your units and what they can and can't do. If your not using magic, try it out, and does your friend usually tailor his lists to better fight yours?

Doesn't seem like it. He normally switches what type of army he uses all the time. One match it'll be mainly wythes, the next very elite troops, another it would be fast moving with a lot of numbers. Same with me, I try not to stick with the same kind of army. You know, switching it up, seeing what units are good at what and where. Seeing what's effective vs whatever army I'm fighting against.

Normally my friend goes light on magic. Me, I typically go pretty defensive on magic bringing an Ancient Stegadon with the Diadem of Power and another skink prist with the Staff of Sorcery, That about it for magic but sometimes I do go heavy magic.

willowdark
07-07-2009, 17:52
There is some merit to switching it up and testing out deferent units and synergies, but some things just take practice. You might be further ahead keeping the same list. That way, even though the elements of his army change, your resources are always the same and you can get better at adjusting to what you see and staying truer to your strategies.