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TheMightyBob
06-07-2009, 18:44
Hey all. I thought people might like to know: the Lizardmen Q&A is up on GW's website.
There are some interesting rulings:
Stegadon's big guns can't use a chief's BS. Or stand & shoot.
Chakax gets to strike first in challenges, even with the great weapon.
Terradons can drop rocks while charging.
The Burning Alignment is magical.
The impact hits from a Stegadon War-Spear are magical.
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones can transfer a '2' on the Miscast table.

Those are the highlights, I think.

Out

Gaargod
06-07-2009, 19:11
Mixed response i think. Some of the rules are idiotic:

Cupped Hands for example is declared AFTER the miscast table is rolled, which is cool (and very very useful, making it an almost mandatory item i think. It becomes a nice back up waiting for the really bad miscasts).
However, in the above question they say that you use an opponent's miscast table. Um. What? And not only that, you still ignore results 5-6. Um. Double what?
But for fun, the damage can be combined with bane head (assassination of enemy mages reaches a whole new level).

GW have also done their usual thing of not going back on RAW, even against RAI. I.E. Razordons apparently don't shoot if they misfire on stand and shooting, at all.

They also didn't address the problem of what happens when Kroak's spell is 'broken' by rune of spelleating etc.


Seriously, why can't they get a sensible guy to review it? The writer of the book for example...

Avian
06-07-2009, 19:35
That FAQ made it quite clear that items that transfer miscasts should probably not have invented since they create so many (to put it politely) oddities.

Ultimate Life Form
06-07-2009, 19:44
I want to point out that there was a mistake in the German FAQ so what I translated wasn't 100% correct. The Cupped Hands are declared AFTER rolling on the Miscast Table.

Desert Rain
06-07-2009, 20:13
A FAQ at last. *starts reading*

jaxom
06-07-2009, 20:17
Have to admit that I love the flat-out wrong answer.



Q. How do two items that cause double
wounds combine? For example, both the
Piranha Blade and Bane Head double wounds
caused. Would this typically result in 3
wounds or 4?
A. Four.


Now, if the question had been do these two weapons combine differently for some reason, then fine. But the question as asked has already been addressed.


EDIT: How annoying. Now that I go looking for the ruling to cite, I cannot find it. Was that in the old LM FAQ maybe because they're the only army that could stack multiple items with wound doubling?

Tae
06-07-2009, 21:09
Sigh, yet another FAQ/Errata that appears to be based more on how the guy writing it was feeling that day as opposed to what the BRB actually says.

Some of the answers are obvious.

Some of the answers are odd.

Some of the answers are just plain wrong.

If any Slaan passes off a miscast roll of a double 1 against me I will be packing my stuff up and going home, poor sport or no.

kramplarv
06-07-2009, 21:17
If anyone left the table against me because I follwoed the rules, they are probably a great jerk.

The answers are as stated somewhat... random. And I totally agree that the author should make the FAQ. :)

Nurgling Chieftain
06-07-2009, 21:23
I thought the answer regarding bolt thrower hits on mixed skink/kroxigor units was particularly odd. It did not resemble any of the resolution processes I had contemplated.

Pavic
06-07-2009, 21:24
My money says that the "use the army specific miscast table" and "pass after rolling on the miscast table" for cupped hands is edited like the wood elf item that initially allowed a first turn charge in the first FAQ.

Hopefully, the end result will be that you pass the miscast off before rolling on the miscast table and then you opponent rolls on his miscast table. At least, that is what I am hoping for.

Besides, passing on a 2 is just dirty, though if anyone should be able to do it, it should be a Slann.

Ultimate Life Form
06-07-2009, 21:27
I thought the answer regarding bolt thrower hits on mixed skink/kroxigor units was particularly odd. It did not resemble any of the resolution processes I had contemplated.

In fact, this Bolt Thrower madness alone is reason for me not to take mixed units in the future...:eyebrows:

Drachen_Jager
06-07-2009, 21:39
If anyone left the table against me because I follwoed the rules, they are probably a great jerk.

The FAQ is not intended as a rules supplement, it is a set of suggested 'house rules' to help out some of the poorly thought out rules in the books. As such, when deciding rules disputes the order should be;

1) Follow the RAW.

2) If there is an apparent conflict or hole in the RAW try to work it out sensibly.

3) If 1 and 2 fail use the FAQ.

nosferatu1001
06-07-2009, 21:41
That was an insane faq - bane head / piranha blade was answered in the OLD FAQ, and mathematically correctly stated it was 3 wounds - not 4 like it is now. Still great way to kill opponents....

Passing on "2"s seems insane - the wording in the book makes it clear you pass the miscast before rolling, and still ignoring 5/6???

It's a fairly insane FAQ in many ways. Mixed units got very weird...

Necromancy Black
06-07-2009, 22:54
That was an insane faq - bane head / piranha blade was answered in the OLD FAQ, and mathematically correctly stated it was 3 wounds - not 4 like it is now. Still great way to kill opponents....


This is also going to be the death of Treeman Ancients. Banehead + flaming attack.


But, does the FAQ say what I think it says: that if I transfere a 12 with the cupped hands My Slann still get's the spell off with IF but I don't loose the spell. And if there is an enemy wizard in range with that same spell, they'll be the ones to lose it.


...that's just insane!

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 00:06
Yep, thats the answer in the FAQ - you cast with IF, they lose the spell if they have it...

StarFyreXXX
07-07-2009, 00:24
So from this, it sounds like Tetto'eko can't be positioned in rank 2 of templeguard? that'sreally dumb seeing how he'sregarded so highly. The armybook wording makes it possible to put him in TG...oh well :(

Regards,

Sanjay

Sarah S
07-07-2009, 01:00
That was an insane faq - bane head / piranha blade was answered in the OLD FAQ, and mathematically correctly stated it was 3 wounds - not 4 like it is now. Still great way to kill opponents....

I always disagreed with that one.
Glad they changed it!

Ganymede
07-07-2009, 03:03
This is also going to be the death of Treeman Ancients. Banehead + flaming attack.


But, does the FAQ say what I think it says: that if I transfere a 12 with the cupped hands My Slann still get's the spell off with IF but I don't loose the spell. And if there is an enemy wizard in range with that same spell, they'll be the ones to lose it.


...that's just insane!

Those three questions from that FAQ are so confusing.

Take that one that says that we use the enemy miscast table with the cupped hands. How are we supposed to use a different miscast table, such as the gut magic miscast table, if we've already gotten a result with the original miscast roll?

TheMav80
07-07-2009, 04:19
Great, now we need an FAQ for the FAQ.

I didn't think anything could stop a 2 on the miscast table. I guess I'll start letting my friend use that Chaos Warriors item to avoid it.

someone2040
07-07-2009, 04:58
I find the Razordon ruling most frustrating in this FAQ.
It can't decide what approach it wants to take.

If you misfire one one die, you don't get the shots of the other die.
But if you misfire on both dice, you get the effects of both misfires!

I don't see why they couldn't have just said. If one die is a misfire, the razordon misfires and no shots are taken. it just seems silly to misfire twice and makes Razordons if anything, dangerous to take due to the randomness of what they will do.

strewart
07-07-2009, 05:09
You know what I find most odd? That the Slann can only float up for LoS when he is with a TG unit. Where is the logic? He palanquin all of a sudden doesn't work when there is not at least 1 (and yes, just 1 left will do) TG standing right next to him? Its not like they hold him up anymore...

I also remember an old FAQ (I think it was a general 6th ed one in a White Dwarf) that stated two items that double wounds cannot be combined, which I think makes sense. 4 wounds for every wound is just.... Wow.

Strange FAQ. Razordons suck now, steg giant bows aren't worth using and who knows what goes on when the Cupped Hands goes against Ogres who have only a 1d6 miscast table.

Nurgling Chieftain
07-07-2009, 05:23
I am particularly suspicious of the fact that the justification for Slann being unable to act as a large target while not in a unit of Temple Guard is the statement that the rule in question is a Temple Guard rule. This is simply incorrect. "Guardians", where that ability appears, is a Slann rule, rather than a Temple Guard rule - their corresponding rule is "Sacred Duty" and does not involve the Slann's LoS.

Necromancy Black
07-07-2009, 06:27
I think what they mean is that when they say "Guardian" they only refer to Temple Guards.

but yes, it's confusing as it's not a Temple Guard rule it's Slann rule which they apparently meant only works with TG.

Why not just have a rule in the actual TG rules that says "A Slann in a TG unit has LOS..." and leave mention of LOS out of the Slann rules?

Gork or Possibly Mork
07-07-2009, 07:58
That FAQ made it quite clear that items that transfer miscasts should probably not have invented since they create so many (to put it politely) oddities.

I agree. Cupped hands is a not only a stupid item it's quite broken. You can have your cake and eat it too choosing after and pass on a double 1. It's not like the Slann has any trouble miscasting on purpose with the Focused Rumination. Throw Curse Charm in and it's insanely powerful. Using other races chart is plain silly. My poor Ogre butchers and greenskins on a Slann's snake eyes. ouch.

Cupped hands in the LM book should have been like this to begin with to avoid all this.

First miscast ignore on a 2+, Next miscast ignore on a 3+ and so on. Then change the cost to whatever thats worth.

The way it works currently it's open to way too much "what happens if".
It's broken, lame and slows down the game...and I play LM as well.:cheese::mad::confused::cries::wtf:

There are quite a few other things as well that Im surprized swayed the way they did. We will definently be overturning ( house ruling ) on some of these that fail all logic which seems to be about 25% of them. Im really surprized by some of these and I haven't even read it yet ( only what's presented in this thread ).

Somebody surely failed thier stupidity check on this FAQ.

Ultimate Life Form
07-07-2009, 08:39
It's not like the Slann has any trouble miscasting on purpose with the Focused Rumination.
:p

"Foul worshippers of Chaos, feel my wrath, for I am Lord Frox, mighty Slann of the 2nd generation, master of magic and founder of the school of fail! I wield the power of the Lore of Light, but that's largely irrelevant! Just wait till I pull off my dreaded miscast of doom! More than one enemy has fallen before the power of my miscast! And don't get your hopes up, for I can reroll it to make it worse, too! And should you ever meet me in close combat, prepare yourself for my widely feared failed to hit rolls, failed Ward Saves and failed Regeneration rolls!"

Vermin-thing
07-07-2009, 09:34
I'm quite disturbed at the result of randomizing in mixed Skink units. In a sense their saying that a bolt throwers path changes via the randommization in the first rank.

example:

A unit of Skinks, and Krox have been reduced down too 3 models (1 Krox, and 2 Skinks) and a bolt hits them.

)l(bolts path)
)l
)l
[k ][][l]
)))))))l
)))))))l

1st you would have to randomize: the result is a '6' so the bolt passes though the rank of Skinks, missing the Krox completely!

Say I roll a '3' (which is the natural path of the bolt) so the bolt hits the Krox.

)l(bolts path)
)l
)l
[l k][][]
)l
)l

Why then would the path of the missile be altered by whats in the front of the unit?

Unless their saying that the measurement to the target is only to test the range. Maybe their implying that the real shot could be a bit off from the intended path. If that's the case this might make sense, but at the same time you do measure from the front of the bolt thrower, at the tip of the bolt. Maybe the randomizing is taking into account wind resistance, and other effects.

I agree to the need for a FaQ for the FaQ.

Gork or Possibly Mork
07-07-2009, 09:38
My biggest gripe about Cupped hands is actually the ruling that it will use other races miscast chart. Since Ogres only roll 1-6. And a Slann with Stone Soul has a 2/6 chance to roll a 1. it's really unfair to them especially since all butchers would lose D3 wounds and one auto dies. Soul Stone says you must accept the result. You use the soul stone re-roll and then according to the FAQ now get to transfer if you don't like the result.:rolleyes:

I made a mistake in my ealier post. I see curse charm cannot be combined with the miscast result since it says "When the enemy rolls on the miscast chart" Since the miscast is not rolled by your opponent it can't be combined with Cupped Hands.

Gork or Possibly Mork
07-07-2009, 10:02
Forget about cupped hands I just found this dousy about Skrox and fear.


A. I'd say that Kroxigors work under....and that only the
Kroxigors is counted when working out whether the unit is
outnumbered or not.

This seems to suggest if you have a fear causer in a unit
you can still be auto broken from outnumbered by fear.
I thought that if you had a fear causer in a unit you're immune
to it and thus immune to auto break outnumber.

This opens a whole new can of worms.:eek:

Necromancy Black
07-07-2009, 10:25
Forget about cupped hands I just found this dousy about Skrox and fear.


A. I'd say that Kroxigors work under....and that only the
Kroxigors is counted when working out whether the unit is
outnumbered or not.

This seems to suggest if you have a fear causer in a unit
you can still be auto broken from outnumbered by fear.
I thought that if you had a fear causer in a unit you're immune
to it and thus immune to auto break outnumber.

This opens a whole new can of worms.:eek:

They say it's best to use the rules used for characters. So going by that rule, no they wouldn't be outnumbered by fear causes (unless they actually cause terror)

Arkanthaes
07-07-2009, 10:30
One thing: You transfer the miscast after rolling, correct?
Thus, you'd roll on the normal miscast chart, then decide to transfer or not.
Now, how would you ever get to chose to roll on the enemy miscast table, as you've rolled the miscast before transferring?

Mireadur
07-07-2009, 10:35
Forget about cupped hands I just found this dousy about Skrox and fear.


A. I'd say that Kroxigors work under....and that only the
Kroxigors is counted when working out whether the unit is
outnumbered or not.

This seems to suggest if you have a fear causer in a unit
you can still be auto broken from outnumbered by fear.
I thought that if you had a fear causer in a unit you're immune
to it and thus immune to auto break outnumber.

This opens a whole new can of worms.:eek:

It just suggests that a unit losing a fight agaisnt the krox+skinks would only autobreak if their US were inferior to the one of the Kroxigors (and only them).

Tlotsqi
07-07-2009, 12:13
So if terradons'rocks are shoots now, how do they work when they hit a building?
Because the rules say that auto hits weapons do D6 hits, it would mean that D3 rock hits would become D6?

In the french army book terradons can drop rocks only in the "other moves phase". Is it the same thing in english? Because now the rules autorize terradons to drop rocks during the charge moves...

EvC
07-07-2009, 12:41
The dropping or rocks has always happened in the remaining moves segment, as long as the Terradon has moved over a unit that turn. Technically a unit of Terradons would be able to flee over an enemy unit and drop rocks in the remaining moves phase if it didn't count as shooting!


My poor Ogre butchers and greenskins on a Slann's snake eyes. ouch.

On the plus side - for Ogres at least - the nastiest result is a 1, and can't be rolled by a miscasting Slann, 5-6are ignored, and if they get 7-12 then there can be no effect. I think...

Adran
07-07-2009, 12:59
Vermin thing, I'm not sure what your concern is. Shooting into a mixed unit is randomised anyway. What is clarified is what ranks the bolt would penetrate depending on that shot.
The rules in the lizardman book covered your example. Unless you're worried about a situation where the unit is so close to being out of range that only one model is actually in range. And as long as one model is in range, the whole unit can be shot.

The Kroxagor issue covered is if the skink/kroxagor autobreak other units due to outnumbering with fear.
10 skinks and 1 kroxagor vs 5 men, whilst the lizardmen out number, the combat resolution is worked out as normal.
10 skinks and 2 kroxagor vs 5 men, if the men have lost combat, then they will need insane courage to remain
Hope that helps

nosferatu1001
07-07-2009, 14:12
Yes - "drop rocks" just starts by saying "In remaining move.....over any unit it has moved over that phase" - it just tells you that it is resolved in "remaining moves" not any other time, not that you have to have moved over the unit in the remaining moves phase.

It means that you dont get weird panics affecting moving chargers....

StarFyreXXX
07-07-2009, 15:40
Yeah, the new bane head rule makes more sense.

Due to the Piranha blade, 2 wounds are dealt overall.Don't care why/how...the fact is, the total is 2 at the end ofthe attack.Then bane head state's for each wound, it does an extra..makes sense overall that it's 4.

Sanjay

_Kawazu_
07-07-2009, 16:27
Mixed response i think. Some of the rules are idiotic:

Cupped Hands for example is declared AFTER the miscast table is rolled, which is cool (and very very useful, making it an almost mandatory item i think. It becomes a nice back up waiting for the really bad miscasts).
However, in the above question they say that you use an opponent's miscast table. Um. What? And not only that, you still ignore results 5-6. Um. Double what?


This didn't make so much sense for me either. On O&G and OK tables this means ignoring a big part of the effects :eyebrows:

Eulogy2
07-07-2009, 16:31
i cant seem to find the new faq on the GW site, can someone link it?

N810
07-07-2009, 16:37
Heres the US link.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m220263a_LizardmenFAQJuly2009.pdf

TheMav80
07-07-2009, 17:04
I still don't see how you are ever going to be rolling on the opponents miscast table.

I suppose it could happen if an Ogre player used the Hellheart on that turn.

Sarah S
08-07-2009, 01:34
Yeah that bit doesn't make sense at all.

hardyworld
08-07-2009, 13:49
Is it possible for us as a community to reject the LM FAQ and throw it back at GW....asking for one that makes sense?

Ixquic
08-07-2009, 13:53
That's a pretty horrible faq. I'm not surprised since my friend hangs out with some of the people that submit rules answers and one of them thought that since the Cube that ends the magic phase on a 4+ "counted as a dispel scroll" you could have multiples of that in the same army. Be glad someone else corrected that guy before it made it into that faq. Another one thought that you could only have one challenge per game. Stew on that when you think about who is writing faqs and some of the more stupid rulings start to make sense. I've said it before but "work it out yourself" should NEVER EVER be in a faq since it's not only useless but it misses the entire point of having errata.

I'm not even a lizardman player and I think their razordon ruling is retarded. Seriously standing and shooting with those is a huge liability instead of a bonus with double the chances of them eating skinks and not getting any shots. Why can't they just ask the guy who WROTE THE BOOK how things should work instead of these people that really have no clue?

And yeah the cupped hands is pretty stupid in general and the faq just makes it even more confusing.

danny-d-b
08-07-2009, 15:18
so what happenscombining the puppet and the reflecty misscast thing?

do I modifiy the roll before or after its refelected?

Ixquic
08-07-2009, 15:25
so what happenscombining the puppet and the reflecty misscast thing?

do I modifiy the roll before or after its refelected?

Simple you just work it out with your opponent since obviously when two people benefit from opposite interpretations of a rule it will work out where both are happy. What you wanted an actual official ruling on that? Ahahaha!

The whole "these faqs are just design studio house rules so they aren't official at all and just a guideline" crap is the laziest way of saying they are too cowardly to make an actual stand when their rules have holes. They shouldn't even bother since it lends some sort of credibility when they admit there isn't any. Either fix stuff or don't since I can house rules stuff myself thanks.

Mireadur
08-07-2009, 15:41
That's a pretty horrible faq. I'm not surprised since my friend hangs out with some of the people that submit rules answers and one of them thought..

What is their real job inside the company other than FAQ'ing?

Ixquic
08-07-2009, 15:59
What is their real job inside the company other than FAQ'ing?

Not sure but I think they work in the office side of things.

The SkaerKrow
08-07-2009, 16:10
Warhammer is a Beer and Pretzels game, with a community of (largely) tournament minded fans. The end result are documents like this one, which don't do a whole lot to satisfy the needs of most players.

the_picto
08-07-2009, 16:12
Q. Does the Terradon’s Drop Rocks ability
count as a shooting attack?
A. Yes, treat it exactly like a shooting attack.

OK.


Q. Can Terradons Drop Rocks on the turn they
charge?
A. So long as they pass over another enemy
unit, why not!

Because it's treated exactly like a shooting attack!:mad:

Cupped hands is just confusing. It would have been nice and straight forward if you transfered the misscast before rolling.

As for it protecting against snake eyes, I always assumed the "no protection" meant no protection against the damage, not the misscast itself.

Shimmergloom
08-07-2009, 17:08
Warhammer is a Beer and Pretzels game, with a community of (largely) tournament minded fans. The end result are documents like this one, which don't do a whole lot to satisfy the needs of most players.

And yet when prices keep going up, the same people who say this is a beer and pretzel's game will say, 'hey this is an expensive hobby, if you don't like it don't play it!'.

So which is it? A simple beer and pretzel's game or a rich man's game?

Make up your mind. It can't be both ways. If we're paying through the nose for an expensive hobby, then well written rules go along with it.

The prices DO NOT reflect a beer and pretzel's game.

Ixquic
08-07-2009, 17:11
And yet when prices keep going up, the same people who say this is a beer and pretzel's game will say, 'hey this is an expensive hobby, if you don't like it don't play it!'.

So which is it? A simple beer and pretzel's game or a rich man's game?

Make up your mind. It can't be both ways. If we're paying through the nose for an expensive hobby, then well written rules go along with it.

The prices DO NOT reflect a beer and pretzel's game.

This is my problem with their lazy attitude towards rulings. If we are paying a premium price for these models and books, the least would be for them to be professional in their support of them instead of falling back on "just have fun, guys jeez."

stripsteak
08-07-2009, 17:14
Because it's treated exactly like a shooting attack!:mad:

charging does not prevent shooting, only failed charging and marching.

Shimmergloom
08-07-2009, 17:15
And I think that's why, despite the fact that war machine is only marginally cheaper than warhammer on a model to model basis, that people still laud PP, even when they raise prices.

Cause they show much more support for their game and less outright insulting their player base.

Terrodon rules simply state they can drop rocks in the remaining moves part of the movement phase.

This happens after declaring charges and after moving charges. So there is simply no way that terrodons can drop rocks while charging.

And yet they just turned out an FAQ that says, 'sure why not?'.

How about cause your own rules say you can't. Stop insulting my ability to read your own rules.

Ixquic
08-07-2009, 17:19
These are the same people that initially faqed Swordmasters strike last against other ASF stuff because of their great weapons when that didn't even need to since the rule book is incredibly clear that that doesn't happen. "Sure, why not?!" really gives me confidence that they thought out their answer as well. :rolleyes:

Arkanthaes
08-07-2009, 17:42
Terrodon rules simply state they can drop rocks in the remaining moves part of the movement phase.

This happens after declaring charges and after moving charges. So there is simply no way that terrodons can drop rocks while charging.

And yet they just turned out an FAQ that says, 'sure why not?'.

How about cause your own rules say you can't. Stop insulting my ability to read your own rules.

Actually, it's obvious you could. You can drop rocks on a unit you flew over as an ability in the remaining moves. Nowhere does it say a unit in combat skips the movement phase, it's just that, normally, you can't do anything in that phase, so you just pass over them.
However, Terradons can do something, so you follow this line:

Is it the Remaining Moves Phase?
Did my Terradons fly over a unit?
Do they want to drop their rocks?

Nothing limits them from doing it in combat. Why is it a charge move stops them dropping their rocks when a normal move doesn't?

Admittedly, the ruling to treat it like a shooting attack may confuse, but I assume that they mean "this attack removes casualties as though it was a shooting attack"

nosferatu1001
08-07-2009, 17:51
Shimmergloom - as Arkanthas said, you're simply wrong on that. All it states is [B]when/B] the drop rocks occurs, not that you must have moved over them in remaining moves.

Read it again and you'll spot the words youre adding.

The SkaerKrow
08-07-2009, 18:44
And yet when prices keep going up, the same people who say this is a beer and pretzel's game will say, 'hey this is an expensive hobby, if you don't like it don't play it!'.

So which is it? A simple beer and pretzel's game or a rich man's game?

Make up your mind. It can't be both ways. If we're paying through the nose for an expensive hobby, then well written rules go along with it.

The prices DO NOT reflect a beer and pretzel's game.Understand that I was not defending them with my statement, just trying to illustrate the root of the disconnect over what they write versus what the community seems to expect of them.

Ultimate Life Form
08-07-2009, 19:29
Shamfrit of the Narroq, while I agree on some part and I'm slowly growing tired of hearing the same wrong "Terradons can't drop rocks while charging" argument over and over and over again in all kinds of varieties, the FAQ is by no means flawless and must be held responsible for part of the confusion.

Or do you want to enlighten us how the Cupped Hands would use enemy miscast tables when declared AFTER rolling on the regular miscast table?

(What amuses me the most, however, is that no one argued my translation of the German FAQ, only now that they have the very same words in front of them from an "official" source, confusion sets in.:p)

N810
08-07-2009, 19:50
Mostly because the English version is worded badly. :(
(on Teko'eko anyway)

Caine Mangakahia
08-07-2009, 22:25
Hey everyone should be grateful to the GW FAQ team, they do the community a great service by finding work for the mentally challenged :)

Shamfrit
08-07-2009, 22:57
Ultimate, my point is, as badly made as it might be, the people who whine about FAQs are usually the one that misinterpret the rules in the first place. The only issue I had with the book was Burning Alignment, which is fair enough.

I think Cupped Hands and Soul of Stone are both over costed and not worth the points, but always assumed you rolled a miscast, chose to divert on 2+, then rolled on the chart - you don't roll the miscast result THEN choose to pass. Mostly because all the rules issues people are raising don't happen if you lose a little common sense, in fact, doing it this way ignores all the issues raised.

You divert the miscast, then THEY roll on their miscast table, job done.

Dead Man Walking
08-07-2009, 23:00
What pisses me off the most is that they spent so many months to post a faq and behave like they hardly spent a second in thought about how to faq it. When someone asks a straightforward question just answer the question, don't mention words like 'I suppose' and 'Most likely'.

jaxom
08-07-2009, 23:03
Actually, my favorite part has been all the people posting complaints about the Razordon nerf...

So, to be explicit, a Razordon in S&S now expects 8.33 shots instead of 10. It *is* true that now they will shoot nothing on 11/36 odds instead of 1/36 odds (as an individual)... All that really means is that you should not run them as singles if you are worried about being charged. Most of it is just as expected. Some of it eliminates contention (e.g. the Warspear causes magical impact hits) and some of it is a downright gift (e.g. Bane Head plus Piranha is now 4 wounds instead of as FAQ'd in the last edition).

The worst thing I saw (at least in my opinion) is preventing the skink chief from firing howdah weapons...

StarFyreXXX
09-07-2009, 00:39
I won't call the bane head thing a gift..now..it makes sense :)

Sanjay

Sarah S
09-07-2009, 00:39
Agreed 2x2=4.

Shamfrit
09-07-2009, 00:59
1st person to get 11 CR from a Challenge with a Greater Daemon gets a medal :D

N810
09-07-2009, 01:27
I think this might do it...



Saurus Oldblood (st5 ws6 at5/6)
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Scaly Skin

(st7 ws3 at4)
Carnosaur (d3 wounds)
Causes Terror; Scaly Skin

Piranha Blade (2x wounds)
The Maiming Shield +1 attack
Bane Head (2x all wounds)

total Cost: 455


possible wounds... 46? :eek:

StarFyreXXX
09-07-2009, 01:27
Shamfrit.. hehehe somehowi doubt that will happen...

chances just aren't very good...they charge us mostof the time and our lord dies :P

Sanjay

Shamfrit
09-07-2009, 01:29
No, true...but, now the Pirahna Bane Scar Vet/Old Blood is so disgustingly good at killing Flesh Hounds Lizardmen are the official Daemon Counter Army :D

EDIT: I regret giving them up purely for financial reasons now :(

Nicha11
09-07-2009, 03:38
Hmmm i'm disappointed with the Q&A, it looks like something written by a bunch of fans unfamiliar with the actual rules.

WLBjork
09-07-2009, 06:48
I think this might do it...



possible wounds... 46? :eek:

36, not 46.

(6*4 = 24 for the Oldblood + 4*3 = 12 for the Carnosaur).

That does require a fair bit of luck. To be frank, that's going to be a waste on most opponents, but what the heck, looks good doesn't it :evilgrin:

N810
09-07-2009, 12:41
opps I realy shouldn't do math in my head...

oh and I forgot you don't quadruple the maming shield atacks
so it's more like 34... Still
quite an impresive amount of "posible wounds" for a single model. <-- fixed (everybodys a critic)

Necromancy Black
09-07-2009, 13:00
opps I realy shouldn't do math in my head...

oh and I forgot you don't quadruple the maming shield atacks
so it's more like 34... Still
quite an impresive amount of attacks for a single model.

You mean wounds. It's about 6-7 attacks that can cause up to 34 wounds worth of damage.

Eulogy2
09-07-2009, 14:12
I'm not even a lizardman player and I think their razordon ruling is retarded. Seriously standing and shooting with those is a huge liability instead of a bonus with double the chances of them eating skinks and not getting any shots. Why can't they just ask the guy who WROTE THE BOOK how things should work instead of these people that really have no clue?



i have to disagree here. i typically use sallies most of the time, but i have used razordons alot, and ive always played if they misfire at all on the stand and shoot, no shots get off. ive honestly never had them misfire yet in a stand and shoot( i usually use units of 1 or 2) and the chances arent really that bad either. ive seen some amazing stand and shoots too, best one so far being a lone razordon that i moved infront of a gnoblar scrap launcher so he HAD to charge it. the little fella got off 16 shots and killed it out right before the impact hits touched him. not many things can kill a scrap launcher outright like that in a stand and shoot. and i find that once you do something crazy like that once, and your opponent see what they have potential to do, they will NOT risk charging them again.

Tlotsqi
09-07-2009, 14:19
As the terradons'rock attack become a shooting attack, how does it work against building?
And how do the spells of the life domain affecting the shoots work with the terradons'rock drop?

Shamfrit
09-07-2009, 14:21
They don't change because of their new classification, they auto-hit, so bypass any shooting rules regardless. No cover bonuses for buildings, no extra damage (as is it's not a template weapon etc, or a Warmachine.)

All it does is mean certain wards vs shooting now work (as common sense dictates they should anyway.)

Gaargod
09-07-2009, 18:02
Actually, N810 you forgot frenzy. Assuming the model is frenzied, you could do a total of 41 wounds. Which is downright funny (i have to see someone try to pull that off in a game. I once used Spirit of the Forge on a bane headed treeman. It did not end well for the tree. Fireworks!).

I personally want to see what would happen if you tried to use both soul of stone, cupped hands, curse charm and infernal puppet in one miscast, using it against ogres (team battle). Possibly THE most confused miscast ever.


Oh, and i forgot the exact wording, but isn't it that auto hitting shooting attacks do D6 hits against models in buildings. Is that each automatic hit, or as the whole? If the first, couldn't then, theoretically at least, 3 terradons inflict 54 S4 hits on a unit in a building? Otherwise known as instant death to archers in towers :D


I love this FAQ. It's providing my early evening fun :D

N810
09-07-2009, 18:23
add a skink priest casting #1 from heaven on him for even more fun. :D
(the reroll 1's spell is #1 right ?)

the_picto
10-07-2009, 09:23
Regarding dropping rocks;


charging does not prevent shooting, only failed charging and marching.

True. However, being locked in combat does. The terradons have completed their charge and are locked in combat by the time the remaining moves bit comes round. So they are no longer eligible to perform a shooting attack. A bit too RAWish perhaps, but there it is.

Tlotsqi
10-07-2009, 09:28
Oh, and i forgot the exact wording, but isn't it that auto hitting shooting attacks do D6 hits against models in buildings.

Correct! that's why I posted the question. Sorry Shamfrit.
As the 4th and 5th spells of the life, in the 4th only war machines and magic missiles are spared, and in the 5th all auto hitting shooting attack are targeted.
It's at least weird.

Ophidian
10-07-2009, 10:28
Regarding the Razordon again: what's the best way of resolving SnS from a unit of multiple Razzies? Say you've got two, that's 4 dice. Roll all 4 together? What happens when 2 misfires come up? As one misfire is enough to wipe a razzie's shot completely, it's obviously advantageous for the opponent to want to distribute one to each (and therefore negate all shots). Is there a precedent? I don't want to have to roll up each razor separately (but neither do I want to be shafted out of the shots).

Of course, the potential contentious permutations only increase with a unit of three...

EvC
10-07-2009, 11:08
Why on earth don't you want to roll them up separately?

Ophidian
10-07-2009, 11:44
Because I'm a lazy sod?

I was being a little melodramatic, of course. I'm not really that bothered about the difference between rolling 3*2 dice and 1*6 dice, certainly if it were to give me a minor advantage.

I just find that games go on long enough* as they are and like to be able to do things quickly.

*especially as since the change to seventh (I don't get to play very often) I find myself having to check every little rule for changes

Gaargod
10-07-2009, 11:54
I think you roll each razordon's shots together. If you get a misfire, you don't shoot. If you get 2, say goodbye to some skinks. If you don't, be happy.

EvC
10-07-2009, 12:51
Because I'm a lazy sod?

I was being a little melodramatic, of course. I'm not really that bothered about the difference between rolling 3*2 dice and 1*6 dice, certainly if it were to give me a minor advantage.

Frankly I'd be impressed that you have 6 misfire dice in the first place...

Ophidian
10-07-2009, 14:23
Don't get to play very often, but have been playing a long time - 4,5,6 and 7th eds nets enough artillery dice to do a whole unit in one go...

jaxom
10-07-2009, 14:30
Regarding dropping rocks;



True. However, being locked in combat does. The terradons have completed their charge and are locked in combat by the time the remaining moves bit comes round. So they are no longer eligible to perform a shooting attack. A bit too RAWish perhaps, but there it is.

Just to make certain I understand this argument, you are saying that you want such a strict RAW interpretation that after flying 20" the terradons land, pick up some rocks and lob them back at something they flew over earlier in the move phase (up to 19" away in fact)? Presumably because they have better intel about that unit than the one standing 1" away which is, for some reason not a legal target? Man, I wish my skinks were all that strong!

I mean... Ok, this is strict RAW as you point out, but it seems a pretty silly way to interpret every *other* shot they're ever going to make.

willowdark
10-07-2009, 14:32
I think you roll each razordon's shots together. If you get a misfire, you don't shoot. If you get 2, say goodbye to some skinks. If you don't, be happy.


It seems like this is what the FAQ is saying, since it repeatedly refers to the "unit" rather than the model. Are they assuming units of one, or do they mean that a single misfire will prevent the whole unit from shooting?

the_picto
10-07-2009, 16:22
Just to make certain I understand this argument, you are saying that you want such a strict RAW interpretation that after flying 20" the terradons land, pick up some rocks and lob them back at something they flew over earlier in the move phase (up to 19" away in fact)? Presumably because they have better intel about that unit than the one standing 1" away which is, for some reason not a legal target? Man, I wish my skinks were all that strong!

I mean... Ok, this is strict RAW as you point out, but it seems a pretty silly way to interpret every *other* shot they're ever going to make.

No, it doesn't make much sense. No, I probably wouldn't try and enforce it during a game. I just felt the need to point out that that is how the rules are written.

I think that if we are allowing them to drop rocks after a completed charge, they should be allowed to drop rocks after a failed one too. Not sure what the view on that is.

EvC
10-07-2009, 16:36
No, the rules are written that the dice rolls for dropping rocks happens in the remaining moves segment of the movement phase, the rocks are actually dropped whilst the Terradons are flying over their enemies. It's really not that difficult a concept!

Tykinkuula
10-07-2009, 16:43
And whatever the RAW might seem to indicate, we have a FAQ saying "yes they can", even though the said FAQ overall redefines the definition of retardness.

jaxom
10-07-2009, 16:53
Oh, I agree with you guys, EvC and Tykin... Just pointing out what I imagine the writer was thinking while writing the FAQ.

I don't think there are many other exceptions where resolving something is done in a different phase than the actual effect occurs so I can see a RAW argument. The FAQ explicitly states what happens so that's a moot point.

The crux of the RAW argument would be that this is a shooting attack which occurs in Remaining Moves and has limited targets defined by rule. The fluff associated with that interpretation is what I wrote earlier. The RAW interpretation kinda suggests that they have a range of 19" to throw rocks with a limited number of targets... I can imaging that would make the Ogres just a little jealous. :)

Gabacho Mk.II
10-07-2009, 17:40
Yup. GW sure did a good job with the Lizardmen book.

:angel:

Prophet of Quetzl
10-07-2009, 18:39
Yup. GW sure did a good job with the Lizardmen book.

:angel:

What get me is that the book itself was only so bad. It could easily have been fixed with proper ERRATA and FAQ. Unfortunately they produced a document that is called "Errata and FAQs" that has no errata only FAQs and only serves to further complicate many of the things it attempts to answer.

strewart
11-07-2009, 12:40
What is interesting is the German FAQ that first came out did have an errata. I am 90% sure it was regarding priests/chiefs on stegadons, and reworded it to make sure the character replaced a crew member for a total of 5 skinks still rather than adding to the 5 already there, I'm not sure why that didn't appear in the english version. A few more erratas rather than the 'I think', 'sure, why not', 'I guess so' and worst of all 'discuss it with your opponent' FAQ answers.

nosferatu1001
11-07-2009, 14:17
In the english version the Chief already replaces a crew member.

jrodrag
11-07-2009, 19:30
The cupped hands seems to work the same now as before you just get the added benefit of seeing what the miscast is going to be before decideing to transfer it. If you decide to transfer to an army with a seperate miscast table then take the number that you rolled and look that number up on thier miscast table, but ignore results of 5-6. So Ogres actually get a fair bit of protection from this as only 2D6 results of 2, 3, and 4 can affect them. Any other result is ignored, can't be rolled on 2d6, or isn't on the chart and therefore ignored, in my book.

Now dropping rocks after charging is just stupid and in my opinion it was written as being in the Remaining Moves phase to prevent this. But I have been wrong before and maybe the author intended them to be this broken from the begining.

Sarah S
12-07-2009, 05:36
No, you don't do that for Cupped Hands.
That's really quite silly sounding.

If you roll before you transfer (which you do according to the FAQ) then you transfer the result.

The question about other miscast tables is a complete and utter red herring and just shows that GW often has no idea what they are talking about.

Arkanthaes
12-07-2009, 08:45
The cupped hands seems to work the same now as before you just get the added benefit of seeing what the miscast is going to be before decideing to transfer it. If you decide to transfer to an army with a seperate miscast table then take the number that you rolled and look that number up on thier miscast table, but ignore results of 5-6. So Ogres actually get a fair bit of protection from this as only 2D6 results of 2, 3, and 4 can affect them. Any other result is ignored, can't be rolled on 2d6, or isn't on the chart and therefore ignored, in my book.

No, that's a stupid idea. You roll 2D6, see the result, then decide whether to transfer it. I don't expect my result to change after I've rolled it.



Now dropping rocks after charging is just stupid and in my opinion it was written as being in the Remaining Moves phase to prevent this. But I have been wrong before and maybe the author intended them to be this broken from the begining.

Your opinion is wrong. If they were going to prevent shooting in combat, they'd have made it a normal shooting attack. However, to ALLOW it being used in combat they put it outside of the normal shooting rules.

Also, is D3 Strength 4 hits per Terradon on the charge that broken? Even with 300 points of Terradons, they're still only Skinks. One unit might get hurt, yes, but that's 300 points gone because you've just sent 10 Skinks into combat.

nosferatu1001
12-07-2009, 10:02
Sending terradons into combat against fast cav or normal skirmishers works quite well - however the loss of their previous hit and run is a shame, as the new one doesnt fit them as well.

Arkanthaes
12-07-2009, 14:46
Depends what those skirmishers are. If they're anything that hits harder than a soft breeze, your T3 6+ save skinks are gonna take a lot of wounds without causing too many, with 1 Str 3 Ws 2 attack each (and a Str 4 per terradon).

They're not what I'd consider effective in combat. And by that, I mean, they're only slightly better than Goblins with Spears.

nosferatu1001
12-07-2009, 16:44
Shades without GW die quite quickly...

Arkanthaes
13-07-2009, 08:04
I know that there will be some things they can decently charge, that's why I said it depends what they're charging. I'm just saying that you won't always be able to charge something squishy enough.

Dungeon_Lawyer
13-07-2009, 08:57
If any Slaan passes off a miscast roll of a double 1 against me I will be packing my stuff up and going home, poor sport or no.

ROTFL Ill help you pack


2's are tranferred to enemy wizards?!:eek::eek::cool::D:p

I dont care what the rest of the FAQ states----Thats ******* awesome!!