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famehunter
07-07-2009, 01:44
Edit: New with improved rules !

Hello fellow warseer-ers !

I'd like to play a game with all of you. The idea is to counter the unit that wins the battle from the previous post.
If more than 1 person replies to a post, the person that beats the unit with the best point margin wins. You only get 1 round of combat and must wipe out the other unit. In the case of ranged units , they get a stand and shoot if you are countering them and then determine the combat as normal.


I ll start with this:

I choose: Swordmasters of hoeth to counter bloodthirster.

Bloodthirster has 5+ward save so out of 3 wounds only 2 will go through. To kill the thirster, you have to do 5 unsaved wounds so it's actually 7.5 wounds to get through the ward save. The attacks have a S5 vs the T6 of the thirster, so those attacks wound on a 5+. 1 out of 3 attacks will wound, so to get to 7.5 wounds, you will need to do a total of 22.5 attacks. To reach the 22.5 attacks needed to kill the thirster at a strenght of 5, then I'd have to roll against his WS of 10 with the WS of 6 from my swordmasters. This requires a 4+ to hit so I'd have to do a total of 45 attacks. Each swordmaster has 2 attacks so divided into 45 its 22.5 swordmasters to kill the bloodthirsters in 1 turn. 22.5 swordmasters cant exist so you have to make it 23. Swordmasters are asf and I dont think the thirster is. It would take 23 swordmasters to attack the bloodthirster simultaneously in order to statistically kill it in 1 turn. Which is impossible due to the thirster's base size but due to the nature of this thread we will ignore this and just count the number of swordmasters it would take. (remember that this is just a different game that we're playing for fun on this forum. Don't factor in things such as, the range of weapons vs the move distance of the charger, or the number of units that would normally fit into base contact, etc...) The goal is simply to score the best point ratio possible!

Bloodthirster is 450pts, swordmasters are 15pts each multiplied by 23. 345pts total. swordmasters counter the bloodthirster by 105pts!


I wanna do more like theese but first, I ll let someone counter the 23 swordmasters with whatever they think would beat them at the most efficient point ratio. (hint, a ranged unit would prolly do really good vs them). To do so, demonstrate, step by step and statistically, how your unit would counter the unit that has been used by the previous forum post. In this case, it would be 23 swordmasters. (Or you could try to do even better than me vs the bloodthirster) To do so, start with the armor save of that unit, determine what needs to be rolled to cause a wound. Then determine the amount of wounds that needs to be scored after saves (in this case its 23 swordmasters so 23 wounds). Then compare Str vs Toughness and finally ws vs ws. IF the unit you are countering would normally attack first, then add the number of wounds it would statistically cause to the number of models it takes to kill it in 1 turn. For example I can kill the bloodthirster with 23 swordmaster but in the case that it would attack first and statistically cause 3 casualties then my total at the end would become 26 and not 23.
Also, if you want, you can reduce the ammount of models from the unit you're trying to counter (Ex: reduce 23 swordmasters to 5). As to prevent the game from escalating into very high numbers.

It would be fun if people used only units from their own armies. If you got more than 1 army book , then try to stick to only 1 for the purpose of this game, ty.
I will be using high elves from now on :)

Oh, and one last thing. You will need to provide the stats of the unit you used so other people can counter it. Ex: Swordmasters wear heavy armor for a 5+as are WS6 S5 T3 W1 I5(asf) A2 Ld8. 15pts x 23=345pts. In the case of units with special rules, make sure to list them in detail as other people probably dont have your army book and wont be able to determine how exactly a undead unit behaves for example.

I look forward to learning alot about other people's units from this thread :)

SuperArchMegalon
07-07-2009, 06:06
I don't think you're allowed to put individual points cost, for copyright reasons. I'm also having a hard time coming up with a unit (ranged or CC) that can erase 23 Swordmasters in one turn, without flanking it and breaking it.

PeeKay
07-07-2009, 16:54
I am afraid I am about to break your game (sorry).

Cairn Wraiths can inflict damage without a response from the swordmasters (I can't do the numbers as I don't have my books here). Someone will then suggest a unit that has magical attack and this will continue in a three way triangle of units.

Or someone could come out with the Hydra and it would be a draw :)

famehunter
07-07-2009, 19:03
I am afraid I am about to break your game (sorry).

Cairn Wraiths can inflict damage without a response from the swordmasters (I can't do the numbers as I don't have my books here). Someone will then suggest a unit that has magical attack and this will continue in a three way triangle of units.

Or someone could come out with the Hydra and it would be a draw :)

Here here, let me do the math for you (I love doing this ;) )

Cairn Wraiths counter 23 swordmasters

Swordmasters have a As of 5+ with their heavy armor. Which means that with their str of 5 , cairn wraiths will penetrate straight through. 23 wounds wipes out the unit in 1 turn. Wraiths with their str of 5 will wound the t3 swordmasters on a 2+. which means that 27.6 sucessful attacks must be made. To hit the swordmasters , wraith have a ws of 3 vs a ws of 6 for the swordmasters so they need 4+ to make sucessfull attacks. Half the attacks will not hit so in order to reach 27.6 sucessful ones you need to make 55.2 attempts. each wraith has 3 attacks so it takes 18.4 of them to make that many attempts. 18.4 models can't exist so make it 19. Wraiths attack last but are immune to the swordmasters attacks so they dont suffer casualties.

19 cairn wraiths, statistically wipe 23 swordmasters in 1 turn.

19 wraiths are 50pts per model for a total of 950pts.
23swordmasters is 345 pts.

It takes 950pts of wraiths to wipe out 345pts of swordmasters in 1 turn.
wraiths win by a margin of -605.

I'm sure someone can do better than this ;)

Dag
07-07-2009, 19:10
6 ironguts wide, 4 deep.

byby swordmasters =]

Marshal Torrick
07-07-2009, 19:14
Wraiths are S5 with their great weapons :) That makes life a little easier for them. Let's see....

23 wounds needed.....
s5 so 5/6 hits wound so 23*6/5(since we're working backwards)=27.6 or 28 hits
28 hits necessitate 56 attacks
56 attacks/3 per wraith=18.667 or 19 wraiths.
19 wraiths *50pts=950 pts

345-950=-605 Not as bad as before, but still way off. At least the Wraiths would all survive and move on to some other target.

Hmmm, 23 5+AS T3 wounds....I wonder how many Gyrocopters it would take to boil that unit down? :P

famehunter
07-07-2009, 19:37
Wraiths are S5 with their great weapons :) That makes life a little easier for them. Let's see....

23 wounds needed.....
s5 so 5/6 hits wound so 23*6/5(since we're working backwards)=27.6 or 28 hits
28 hits necessitate 56 attacks
56 attacks/3 per wraith=18.667 or 19 wraiths.
19 wraiths *50pts=950 pts

345-950=-605 Not as bad as before, but still way off. At least the Wraiths would all survive and move on to some other target.

Hmmm, 23 5+AS T3 wounds....I wonder how many Gyrocopters it would take to boil that unit down? :P

Oh you're perfectly right, they use great weapons. forgot to add that. edit: nvm I read it wrong

I'll edit my reply acordingly, thanks for pointing that out. That's why I'd prefer if people only used units from their own armies :)

Marshal Torrick
07-07-2009, 19:38
I did, they hit 1/2 the time, hence 28 hits need 56 attacks :)

famehunter
07-07-2009, 19:51
Yep you're right. Why dont you give a shot and counter the wraiths with something from your army. I'll try to beat yours after that ;)

Von Wibble
07-07-2009, 20:08
I counter the 19 wraiths with 44 dryads.

88 attacks cause 58 hits cause 38 wounds. No saves, all wraiths dead.

44 Dryads = 528pts. 950 - 528 = a score of 422.

famehunter
07-07-2009, 20:16
I counter the 19 wraiths with 44 dryads.

88 attacks cause 58 hits cause 38 wounds. No saves, all wraiths dead.

44 Dryads = 528pts. 950 - 528 = a score of 422.

Very nice. altough I wished I knew the stats of the dryads to try something against them. Please add them or we cant continue the game !

Tsear
07-07-2009, 20:41
I counter the 19 wraiths with 44 dryads.

88 attacks cause 58 hits cause 38 wounds. No saves, all wraiths dead.

44 Dryads = 528pts. 950 - 528 = a score of 422.

I'll counter your 44 dryads with 88 dryads. One attack hits apiece, half of which wound and go through the forest spirit save. Point margin, -528.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
07-07-2009, 23:03
Here here, let me do the math for you (I love doing this ;) )

Cairn Wraiths counter 23 swordmasters

Swordmasters have a As of 5+ with their heavy armor. Which means that with their str of 5 , cairn wraiths will penetrate straight through. 23 wounds wipes out the unit in 1 turn. Wraiths with their str of 5 will wound the t3 swordmasters on a 2+. which means that 27.6 sucessful attacks must be made. To hit the swordmasters , wraith have a ws of 3 vs a ws of 6 for the swordmasters so they need 4+ to make sucessfull attacks. Half the attacks will not hit so in order to reach 27.6 sucessful ones you need to make 55.2 attempts. each wraith has 3 attacks so it takes 18.4 of them to make that many attempts. 18.4 models can't exist so make it 19. Wraiths attack last but are immune to the swordmasters attacks so they dont suffer casualties.

19 cairn wraiths, statistically wipe 23 swordmasters in 1 turn.

19 wraiths are 50pts per model for a total of 950pts.
23swordmasters is 345 pts.

It takes 950pts of wraiths to wipe out 345pts of swordmasters in 1 turn.
wraiths win by a margin of -605.

I'm sure someone can do better than this ;)

23 Outriders [with champ] or 24 without [499 or 504].

23 wounds needed- wounding on 3s means 35 hits to cause 23 wounds. Hitting on 4s [short range, -1 for multiple shots] means 70 shots needed for 35 hits. Each outrider fires 3 shots so 23.333 outriders for 70 shots- round to 24 [or use a champ who will hit on 3s rather than 4s].

345 - 504 = -159 [not good, but better than wraiths].

And the important stuff for Dryads- skirmish, Ws 4, Str and Tou 4, 5+ ward against non-magical attacks [IIRC]

AFnord
08-07-2009, 00:30
23 outriders, those are T3 with 6+ saves, right? I'll counter them with shortbow armed nightgoblins.

4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 6+ save, and I need to score 23 wounds. 23=0,5*0,5*(5/6)*X
X=110,4. As there is no such thing as 2/5 of a goblin, i'll round that up to 111 goblins. 111 goblins is 333 points. Victory by 166 points.

Milneh
08-07-2009, 00:46
23 outriders, those are T3 with 6+ saves, right? I'll counter them with shortbow armed nightgoblins.

4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 6+ save, and I need to score 23 wounds. 23=0,5*0,5*(5/6)*X
X=110,4. As there is no such thing as 2/5 of a goblin, i'll round that up to 111 goblins. 111 goblins is 333 points. Victory by 166 points.

Outriders have Light Armour aswell for a 5+ save.

AFnord
08-07-2009, 00:55
Oh darn, thats even more goblins needed. 138 to be precise, so thats 414 points. So the goblins will only win by 85 points.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
08-07-2009, 01:31
Oh darn, thats even more goblins needed. 138 to be precise, so thats 414 points. So the goblins will only win by 85 points.

But the outriders will get to shoot first no [longer range], so is that taken into account [like the Swordmasters ASF is in HtH]? In a game like this, numbers will always win though because 138 is a lot of wounds to have to cause in one round- gotta look for maximum attacks per frontage [saurus spears, or additional hand weapon chaos warriors of some type maybe].

Edit- Nevermind, those are dumb choices [too much defense], Empire Free Company or Plague Monks would probably be better choices.

famehunter
08-07-2009, 01:41
23 outriders, those are T3 with 6+ saves, right? I'll counter them with shortbow armed nightgoblins.

4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 6+ save, and I need to score 23 wounds. 23=0,5*0,5*(5/6)*X
X=110,4. As there is no such thing as 2/5 of a goblin, i'll round that up to 111 goblins. 111 goblins is 333 points. Victory by 166 points.

Very nice, that's gunna be hard to beat :)

Since I'm using High elves I ll pick dragon princes of caledor to counter 20 goblins. (reduced to prevent escalation).

I believe goblins are ws2 t3 i2 with no As if I'm not mistaken.
DP's have 2 attacks that wound on 2's, hits on 3's. + a steed with ws3 s3 i4 a1.
Ti kill 20 goblins. wounds are rolled on a 2+ from the prince and 4+ from the mount. Princes have 2 attacks. (5/6)+(5/6)+0.5 = 2.16 wounds on average per prince model. Furthermore, Princes and the steed will hit on a 3+. 2.16*(4/6) = 1.44
Each Dragon prince model causes a statistical average of 1.44 unsaved wounds per round of combat on the goblins. To kill 20 goblins, I need 13.8 dragon prince models. 13.8 dragon princes cant exist so make that 14.

20 goblin models get a chance at stand and shoot before they get charged. hit on 4+ so down to 10 shots. wound on 4+ = down to 5 shots. dp's have heavy armor, shield, steed and mount barding for an As of 2+. 5*(1/6)=0.8
statistically, they would kill 0.8 princes from the stand and shoot. 0.8 cant exist make that 1.

In total it took 14+1=15 dragon princes to wipe out 20 goblins in 1 turn.
20 goblins = 60pts, 15 dragon princes = 450pts

final margin is -390

That prolly was a bad choice, hehe. sure someone can do better.

oh, and for people to counter the dragon princes, here's the stats. 30pts per model, WS5 S3 T3 W1 I6(asf) A2 LD9 (Sv 2+) immune to flaming attacks.

w3rm
08-07-2009, 02:38
gobbos have a 6+ from LA And Id like to counter your DP with Flesh Hounds I'm not good at math but I don't think it will take much. If someone needs math their stats are 8m 5ws 0bs 5str 4t 2w 4i 2a 7 ld 5+ward save and MR3. Beat that high elves!

famehunter
08-07-2009, 19:50
Id like to counter your DP with Flesh Hounds I'm not good at math but I don't think it will take much. If someone needs math their stats are 8m 5ws 0bs 5str 4t 2w 4i 2a 7 ld 5+ward save and MR3. Beat that high elves!

Seems like alot of people on theese forums need to take some math classes hehe (Or maybe they're too young to have graduated yet). ;)

Anyway. If you wanted to use flesh hounds on 15 dragon princes.
2+sv down to 4+because of str5. To inflict 15 casualties you need to cause 30 wounds. str5 vs t3 means you need 2+. 30=(5/6)*x x=36.1 36.1 attacks will cause 30 wounds. to get 36.1 attacks in you have to roll 4+ because both units are ws5, so thats 72.2 attacks. each flesh hound has 2 attacks so divided by 2 = 36.1

You need 36.1 flesh hounds to statistically kill 15 dragon princes. 36.1 cant exist so make that 37.

Furthermore, dragon princes are asf and their steed strike at the same initiative as flesh hounds. 15dragon princes = 30 ws5 s3 attacks and 15 ws3 str3 attacks. ws5 and ws3 both hit on 4+ vs ws5 so 45 attacks will land sucessfully 22.5 hits. str3 vs t4 means you need 5+ to wound. (2/6)*22.5= 7.5 wounds. hounds have 5+ward so 7.5*(4/6) =5 unsaved wounds. Flesh hounds have 2 wounds so 2 would die.

37+2flesh hounds = 1365pts
15 dragon princes = 450pts

flesh hounds win by a margin of -915

That was an expensive counter. something cheaper with str5 and better ws would have done much better.

Chicago Slim
09-07-2009, 04:59
Off the cuff, I'll see what Minotaurs with great weapons but no armor do against those Dragon Princes.

The DPs get their first strike, 30 at 3+ 5+ (nil) = 6.67 wounds, and if you're counting the horses (I did say great weapons, and I guess we're assuming that, uhm, nobody charged) that's another 15 attacks at 4+ 5+ (nil) = 3.33 more. So that's three minotaurs dead off the top.
My go: Come backs are 4+ 2+ (5+) or 5/18 unsaved wounds per attack, so 15 unsaved wounds is 54 attacks, which is 18 surviving minotaurs, plus the three I sacrificed just to get into the fight.

21 minotaurs at 46 points each = 996 points. Ouch.

I might do better by making them Marked (Khorne means 54 attacks is just 14 minotaurs, which more than pays for itself. Nurgle mark and light armor might be worth considering, too, but I'm not sure what those costs are, off the top of my head...)


Alternatively, I'll offer White Lions (since I, too, play High Elves, and LOVE LOVE LOVE my White Lions!)

The DPs have superior initiative, but their horses don't, so that's 30 attacks at 4+ 4+ (5+), or 5 kills off the top. The White Lions come back with 4+ 2+ (5+), same as those minotaurs, which means its still 54 attacks. That's a total of 59 White Lions, which is 885 points. Only slightly better.

And, lastly, as was predicted early on in this thread, Swordmasters are much, much better: 3+ 2+ (4+) is 5/9 per model, so 15 wounds needs just 27 models-- plus the five killed by the DPs on their superior initiative, makes 32 in all, for 480 points. Still negative (-30), but much better.

Chicago Slim
09-07-2009, 05:11
Alternatively, depending on formation, we might consider goblin bolt throwers...

Firing at short range, I'll need 4+ to hit, 5/6 wound, 5/6 wound, 2/3 wound, 1/2 wound, 1/3 wound, 1/6 wound, 1/6 wound, nil...

This would get complicated, very very quickly, but at 35 points per bolt thrower, it might just work out to less than the DPs...

A brief first effort is that the EV of each bolt thrower, assuming unlimited ranks to penetrate for each, boils down to:
50% = 0 wounds
7% = 1 wound
23% = 2 wounds
12% = 3 wounds
7% = 4 wounds
1% = 5 wounds

for a weighted average of 1.22 wounds per bolt thrower. So, 15 wounds requires 12.3, round up to 13 bolt throwers, at 35 points each = 455 points. Got to within -5 on those DPs, which isn't too bad.

Of course, if you assume a single rank, then the BTs are REALLY hosed for cost... But if it's just 13 bolt throwers... well, that's 39 goblins to be killed, which shouldn't be too hard. Frankly, I'd rather see someone kill those 12 minotaurs.

Briohmar
09-07-2009, 06:16
to beat 15 DP's with fiends of Slaanesh, The DPs get their first strike, 30 at 3+ 5+ (5+) = 4.42 wounds, or +1 Fiend, the fiends have I6 so go before the horses. Fiends need 20 wounds at a 5+ sv, so need 40 attacks at 4+ to hit, +1 Fiend lost to ASF or 11 Fiends @55 points=605 points. -155 OK not so great, but against some of the others they do even better. And with Fiends having 20" charge range, they should be striking first against nearly everything.

Von Wibble
09-07-2009, 19:21
Since I first used Dryads, it looks like wood elves are my army. Unfortunately, I think the best unit to counter fiends is Wardancers, and you need 50 of them. Costing 900 pts this is not good. Assume +1A war dance.

150 attacks, 100 hit, 50 wound (I'm assuming S4 from their wardancer weapons), 33 saves failed, 11 fiends killed.

Score, -295. Yuck!

Given a choice from all armies in combat I think 40 witch elves is best. Unit cost 400pts.

120 attacks. 20 poison, 40 hit. Reroll from hatred adds 10 more poison and 20 more hits. The 60 hits inflict 20 wounds. 20 + 30 = 50. Fiends make 17 saves, take 33 wounds, killing 11. Witch elves counter Fiends at a score of 205.

Btw imo there should be a rule for this random game that we only move on to counter a new unit if the previous unit got a positive score. I hasten to add that should be easy to do vs witch elves, with their T3 and no save...

Chicago Slim
09-07-2009, 23:30
Btw imo there should be a rule for this random game that we only move on to counter a new unit if the previous unit got a positive score. I hasten to add that should be easy to do vs witch elves, with their T3 and no save...

That'll slow things way down-- bringing us back to those 23 Swordmasters!

For them, maybe Khorne-marked Chaos knights? The ASF still hurts, but not as badly: 3+ 3+ (3+) = 4/27 per attack, or 8/27 per model, so 6 knights drop before they fight. Come backs are 4+ 2+ (nil) = 5/12 per attack, or 15/12 per model, plus horses 4+ 3+ (6+) = 5/18 per attack or 5/9 per model. Total, then, is about 1.8 kills per model, or 13 models, plus the 6 killed off the top.

That's 19 Khorned-marked Chaos knights-- no way that's cheaper than 23 Swordmasters...

Von Wibble
11-07-2009, 11:44
Well, vs Swordmasters, I would have thought Dark elf crossbowmen or empire handgunners would do best. They won't get a positive score though.

In combat the bretonnian knight errant gets a good saving throw and wounds the swordmaster on 2+ for less than half the price of the chaos knight.

Free company have 2 attacks and are dirt cheap.

Goblins are just 3 points and still wound the swordmaster on 4+. And they get a saving throw vs ASF.

Grudge throwers with rune of accuracy and rune of penetrating really hurt high elves in general. But I think you'd need at least 4 and that's 560pts.

I'm not sure any of those gets a positive score however. Maybe just aim for the best negative score possible? The free company get a fairly respectable -140 I believe.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
12-07-2009, 02:20
Well, vs Swordmasters, I would have thought Dark elf crossbowmen or empire handgunners would do best. They won't get a positive score though.

In combat the bretonnian knight errant gets a good saving throw and wounds the swordmaster on 2+ for less than half the price of the chaos knight.

Free company have 2 attacks and are dirt cheap.

Goblins are just 3 points and still wound the swordmaster on 4+. And they get a saving throw vs ASF.

Grudge throwers with rune of accuracy and rune of penetrating really hurt high elves in general. But I think you'd need at least 4 and that's 560pts.

I'm not sure any of those gets a positive score however. Maybe just aim for the best negative score possible? The free company get a fairly respectable -140 I believe.

Dwarf Doomseekers can do better if the elves are in at least two ranks. Each dwarf then gets 3 auto str 5 hits and an average of 3.5 more hits [7 models in contact with the 3 models in contact with the doomseeker] which wound on 2s, get rid of the HEs armour save and happen before ASF. So, each Doomseeker kills an average of 5 elves, giving a total of 5 doomseekers needed= 325 points. Swordmasters are 345 for a total difference of +20. This is about the only positive counter I can find.


Free company are cheap, but you lose 125 points worth of them to the HEs ASF. Plaguemonks might be a bit better you lose only 120 points worth of them and with frenzy and poison they could score more wounds, but still end up in the red. What about Dragon Princes?

Chicago Slim
12-07-2009, 04:23
Volker, old friend! Good to see you! (We co-moderated a Yahoo group for elf players, some time back, where I showed up as "jamey1138").

Good thought on the Dragon Princes-- I hadn't realized, until I looked it up, that they beat Swordmasters on Initiative! Still, not very cost-effective:

DP vs SM: 4+ 2+ (nil) = 5/12 per attack or 5/6 per model. 23 wounds is 27.6 (28) models, which comes to a whopping 840 points!

Still, it inspires me to glance through the rest of the HE list, to see what else has an Initiative of 5 or above!


EDIT: Oh, for heaven's sake! I've got it!

23 Swordmasters will be ground into the dirt in one turn by four Pump Wagons.

2d6 impact hits has a mean, median and mode of 7, so let's call it seven hits per model. Each hit is 3+ to wound, with a 6+ armor save, so 5 dead elves for every 9 hits-- just under 6 kills per PW model.

Four pump wagons is 160 points (and two Rare choices), which is a whopping 185 points under the cost of the Swordmasters!


That said, I'll understand if they get disqualified for being multiple units... Now where'd that Tomb King book end up?

Cailonh
13-07-2009, 00:45
23 swordmasters agianst 19 skaven plague censer bearers.

First elves does a toughness test and half of them die from the plague censers, 12 of them gone. 11 elves strike first hitting on 3+ and wounding on 3+ = 4/9 wounds per swordmaster --> 11*4/9 =4.9=5 dead rats.
Rats stiking back, hitting on 4+ wounding on 2+ no saves =15/36 wounds per attack from rats --> 11/(15/36) = 26.4 [but they are frenzy thus they have 2 attacks] --> 14 rats is need to kill 11 swordmasters
With the 5 from the beginning it makes 19 rats at a total of 323. Rats win by 22 points!
This is ofcourse just legal if the censer beaerers are base to base contact with all of the swordsmaster and they are not in base to base contact with eachother (or do they not roll for the toughness test themselfs? it states that clan pestilens and nurgle units is killed on a 6, so i guess it is needed)

Chicago Slim
13-07-2009, 05:40
Cailonh-- as I understand the game, yes, we're assuming that every model has BTB with every model (totally unrealistic, but hey, it's just a game) as per the OP.

Don't forget that Swordmasters have 2 attacks per model, so those 11 survivors will take 22 attacks, hit 3+, wound 3+, no save = 9 7/9 round up to 10 dead rats. That leaves just 9 censers striking back, 4+ 2+ (nil) = only 3.75 dead swordmasters, call it 4, leaving 7 still alive.


So, to do it right, add another 5 PCBs to your total-- that is, 24 Plague Censor Bearers in all, (giving you 14 after 10 die), which puts them well behind on points. Good thought, though-- I think that beating Swordmasters at this particular game will ultimately be all about the before-ASF killing...

The Red Scourge
13-07-2009, 10:04
23 Swordmasters vs a throng of Khorne Marauders w. flails/great weapons. The Swordmasters strike first and kill 25 marauders - thats 125 pts.

28 Berserker Marauders should kill 23 swordmasters - thats 140 points

+ 30 for MoK

That totals 295 points beating the dandies of Ulthuan by 50 :)

jackson11
13-07-2009, 16:31
I counter every one of the previous suggestions with a single model, Volkmar the Grim. As i recall from the storm of chaos results, all he needs to do is look at an army sternly and they all turn tail and flee. Beat that if you can ;)

matticusmaximus
13-07-2009, 22:19
I counter everything in this thread with 2 ratling guns.

:D