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AlmightyNocturnus
07-07-2009, 06:17
I`ve played in the same two wargaming groups with mostly the same players for the past 8 years. Over the years, we`ve had som great Warhammer Fantasy (and 40K) battles. There was little to complain about beyond a person using more than two cannons in a list. It continued that way for many years...and then things began to change...
I can`t remember when it started exactly, but I remember when I contributed to the "Escalation of Change" in our gaming group. I`ve played Ogres since they came out and have enjoyed the challenge they presented. But, I noticed tht I just couldn`t hang with V.C. when their new book came out. A complete noob joined our group and could more than handle my OK army with the VC. Our Tomb Kings player gave up, shelved his beautifully painted army (probably the most beautiful army in this hemisphere) and bought/painted a High Elf Army. Another player retired his Beast of Chaos Army and switched to Daemons. I eventually played a game against a Teclis+Star Dragon HE army where I literally could do nothing with my measley OK. Sadly, I`m just putting the finishing touches on my own Daemon army (all 4 flavors) - 4000 points plus worth of `em.
What can I say? I didn`t want to do it, but there was no other way to compete with two VC armies, a HE army, DE armies and a Daemon army. What`s the problem with Fantasy these days? I think other wargaming groups have experienced a similar "Escalation of Cheese". What`s or Who`s to blame? Is it just the first person go WAAC that forces everybody else (peer pressure)? Is it just GW`s marketing strategy to get veteran players to buy whole new armies? Or is the problem just temporary in that soon every army will adjust the level of cheese in it`s Armies Books to compete with the other upper tier armies?

Almighty Nocturnus

Isabel
07-07-2009, 06:31
The economy is at a low and GW needs to put out products that make people say "wow, I need me some of that!" How do they do it? Tougher army books with above average units. Every armybook will get there eventually (most likly) All those books you listed are out of date and are all due to be rereleased in the near future. Where at all does cheese come in to play in this?

The Red Scourge
07-07-2009, 06:41
That would be true..

If only the "cheese" books had been printed - let alone written - during this recession. Even though it wasn't difficult to predict that the economy would crash, I say Kudos to the GW economy wizards for predicting when it would happen, and implementing it in their design strategy in good time :D

Isabel
07-07-2009, 07:07
The economy was at a low long before it was officially declared a "recession". This is a hobby, not a necessity. One of the first things cut from people's budgets when money gets tight. I've been hearing of companies going under for over 2 years now all around my area.

And it's no secret that army books can be edited last minute.

Of course I have no proof of anything I said. ;)

snurl
07-07-2009, 07:52
The economy was at a low long before it was officially declared a "recession". This is a hobby, not a necessity. One of the first things cut from people's budgets when money gets tight. I've been hearing of companies going under for over 2 years now all around my area.

And it's no secret that army books can be edited last minute.

Of course I have no proof of anything I said. ;)

I am a printer, and yes, army books can be edited all the way through until the plates are put on the press. Even then, an alert proofreader may stop the press if they catch an error.

Tokamak
07-07-2009, 08:34
The economy was at a low long before it was officially declared a "recession". This is a hobby, not a necessity. One of the first things cut from people's budgets when money gets tight. I've been hearing of companies going under for over 2 years now all around my area.

And it's no secret that army books can be edited last minute.

Of course I have no proof of anything I said. ;)

Tha'ts not true actually, the entire miniature 'industry' (train sets, dollhouses, and yes, wargames), florished under recession, people got out of job and needed something to kill the time, especially when these hobbies offered these people to develop a handicraft skill it was even more attractive.

Isabel
07-07-2009, 09:15
Most people I know fill their time looking for another job haha.

But like I said, I have no proof of what I said. I guess I should have made it clear from the beginning that it was just a guess. It just seems to me that GW is generally increasing the strength of all new books to make buying a new army more enticing.

kramplarv
07-07-2009, 09:51
The escalation of power in the game has nothing to do with sales or anything. It is more probably that the authors are "fanboys" of their army. For me, If I were to write an armybook, I am sure that i would "power it up" if I were to write WoC. I would do it withput me realising it. I'd rather write a dwarf book :p

And the DoC are plain stupid. That was an 40k author. He had no real idea about how the mechanics works in fantasy.

Dead Man Walking
07-07-2009, 10:58
If you believe that this 'trend' has anything to do with the recession you either have a weak grasp of time in general or you don't really pay attention to the world outside your own life. People usually dont pay attention to the world events around them (outside the death of a celebrity) until they hit mid to late 20's. When was the last time you sat down and watched the news on a regular basis to find out the worlds events?

Until the markets crashed in late november we were in economic boon where fake profits were being made left and right off the housing industry and credit creeps. There were ninja loads (No income no job or assets) everywhere. So excess money for a hobby that was excessively expensive is obviously not the issue.

The cheese gamer appeared perhaps half a decade ago and they are not going anywheres no matter how much anyone puffs up thier face and blows in thier faces.

Putting out cheese units is a trick by GW that they started at the beginning of the previous edition to boost thier sales. So if you want to blame anyone blame GW, not the person who takes advantage of what GW produces to play the game the way they want to. You should be blowing on GW's faces because cheese players cant field cheese if GW doesnt serve Cheese for dinner every day.

AFnord
07-07-2009, 11:08
Do note tough that the latest army books have been ok from a lack of cheese point of view. They have power builds (like the steggy spam) that should have been noticed, but they are not nearly at the level of DoC, VC or DE. I don't belive that GW intentionally cheese out their new armies, but that they don't properly test the cheese combinations. Also do remember that the army books are designed for the game as it looked while they were working on it. If an army book was written 8 years ago then there would be no way for GW to predict that at this time army type X and Y will run rampart. Ideally they would not have to, but uninetntional powerbuilds has a tendency of creeping in, which results in some armies simply being unable to cope with the game as it looks now.

Some of the units in DoC are really unacceptable tough. Not the entire army, mind you, but far too many of the options in it.

Condottiere
07-07-2009, 13:48
In a way it is correct, that our attention and excitement is drawn to a product which can accomplish something significantly better than rival products. Since you only have to change an artificial profile to accomplish this, it's a relatively easy matter.

What GW fails to do is give enough consideration to how this impacts the entire balance of the game. Sort of like Bankers looking to make short term gains.

kramplarv
07-07-2009, 14:20
I want anyone to prove that GW are "escalating" the power level to increase sales... That sounds more like a conspiracy theory., like. "man has never walked on moon" :)

the power escalation are not new, nor extreme. For every new armybook the army itself becomes better and better internal. And when internal balance is great, power increases.

before, HE or DE only had a few really powerful builds. because of internal disbalance. Now, the whole books are balanced internal, making it harder to beat with other books without internal balance.

the only exception to this is the DoC, which as mentioned before, is written by a 40k:er.
The author of VC himself said that he regrets the multicast of necromancy spells.

Nuada
07-07-2009, 14:38
I don't think the power escalation is something that has happened within the last 5 years. I remember the same complaints of cheese with some of the 4th edition armies. When was that? '92?

grumbaki
07-07-2009, 15:19
To the OP, it is all about the gaming group.

I have been lucky so far, as most of my opponents have Orcs/TK/Empire, three armies which few people will claim are cheesy. But with your group, it probably would be fair to say to the other player "Look, I want to play against your high elves with my ogres, but it really isn't fair to have a teclis/star dragon army against them. So, either drop one of them from the list to make it more fair, or I'll bring out my daemons."

It is polite, and it in a way it is a threat. If you are going against a real powergamer, then match his cheese with whatever you can with your daemons, and reserve your ogres for people who are more interested in a balanced match. It is sad :cries: but it might work.

Dead Man Walking
07-07-2009, 15:49
I don't think the power escalation is something that has happened within the last 5 years. I remember the same complaints of cheese with some of the 4th edition armies. When was that? '92?

Its not a question of them having cheese in thier books, but if they were doing it to boost sales. I came into the hobby when Ravening hordes was released so I dont know before that.

Also, the stegadon spam was not something that slipped through the testers on accident. In the previous edition you could only field 2 stegadons, as even as mounts they took up a rare slot. I could understand missing it if this was the case of them forgetting to make the mounts count as rare, but they also allowed them to be taken as mounts, rare and speacial choices. So this choice above all else points to "Man I really want to sell lots of stegadon models."

I think the next time the book is released there will be a cap on stegs and you will see lots of them for sale on e-bay.

Sheena Easton
07-07-2009, 16:09
I think its currently a case of them envisioning a certain way of structuring all the army books for the edition such as making cavalry more expensive and infantry more viable (see Empire & O&G books) and then they decided to throw that out the window at some stage and they made everything cheaper and then had to buff the next series of books by making everything better and cheaper...



I don't think the power escalation is something that has happened within the last 5 years. I remember the same complaints of cheese with some of the 4th edition armies. When was that? '92?

The reissued HE book springs to mind (was that 5th ed?) - written by extreme power gamer Tomas Piruen (sp) that included tactics like taking Teclis with book or Ashur to make him level 6...

AFnord
07-07-2009, 17:38
They most likely foresaw that stegadons would be taken in multiples with the new book, but they most likely did not foresee the actual consequenses of the more extreme steggy lists out there. One or even two steggys (in 2250 point games) are easy to deal with (they are not that powerful, and if they enemy holds when they charge, or if they are charged, and they are not supported by something else, they have a tendency of loosing combat), but when you have 3 stegadons in a list, things starts to get problematic.

I have heard the very same arguments being repeated time and time again since I started (5th edition): "GW only makes these lists to sell more of model X" or "GW always makes new lists stronger because they want to sell their new things". I'm certain that GW understands that if they mess up the balance too much, then it will hurt sales in the long run. We see poor balancing going both ways when it comes to units. Anyone remember skink cohorts from the list LM book? They worked really well during play testing, so they became an expensive option (as expensive as unupgraded regular skinks actually!), and noone used them, other than for cheap charge redirects for those who did not know how to charge redirect with skirmishers. In the same vein some units works far worse during playtesting than they do out in the real world. It might be the playtesters who don't realize exactly how to use the unit, or how to make the worst power builds. Who knows? Those armies that are being playtested are being playtested against armies that have been out for a while, armies that people know how to play (and abuse!). GW is not a big evil company that tries to create super powerful armies so that they can sell their latest army (altough they want to sell their latest army), and a lot of the people who work for GW seem to genuinly care for the hobby. It's a bummer that they make mistakes, sometimes mistakes that are nearly unacceptable, but in the end, I high doubt that it's a big conspiracy from GWs side to try and sell "that particular expensive things".

Da GoBBo
07-07-2009, 18:32
I`ve played in the same two wargaming groups with mostly the same players for the past 8 years ..... ..... ..... Or is the problem just temporary in that soon every army will adjust the level of cheese in it`s Armies Books to compete with the other upper tier armies?

Almighty Nocturnus

I don't buy this. A new player enters a group of people playing together for 8 years and you all switch to beefy lists because of it? Sounds like you were looking for an excuse to go rough and found it. Congratulations. Fluffy players till it gets hot, bah!

Voss
07-07-2009, 19:02
The author of VC himself said that he regrets the multicast of necromancy spells.

That is probably the most hilarious thing ever, since he went out of his way to put it back in after it had been taken away in the previous book, and it is the one glaring thing that lets the VC just not play the same game everyone else is playing (On top of the normal benefits for undead, of course).


But yes, the extra layer of cheese is part of what is keeping me out of fantasy at the local store. Partly its the people (1 is just... unpleasant, 3 are apparently incapable of remembering rules after over a year of play, 1 dominates them all with cheese and 1 entire person is both a good player and without cheddar).

AlmightyNocturnus
08-07-2009, 06:10
To Grumbaki (a couple of posts up), Yes, that is basically what I intend to do. My Daemon army will become a kind of "nuclear threat". At times, I`ll probably have to take my daemon army out and fight fire with fire (fight cheese with cheese). But I`ll try to use my Ogres when I can get a more even fight. You`re right, it IS kind of sad, but it`s all I can do.

Almighty Nocturnus

Condottiere
08-07-2009, 06:57
Actually, how many armies can go nuclear? The Skavens might be able construct a doomsday device (but haven't yet), Slanns can move mountains, and the Elves could say the hell with it and deactivate the Vortex.

Tarax
08-07-2009, 07:13
From what I gather, both through battle reports and interviews in WD, Games Developers have an idea of how an army should look like. They never look further at what other lists can be made.

Cathel
08-07-2009, 08:09
I beg to differ on that, if I look at the army builds in WD I think they often are not very competitive.
Also there are big mistakes on the ruleswise stuff in there (e.g. crew of HE lion chariot getting +2 strength for greatweapons, or s of Hydra breath weapon being above 5).

I do think there is power creep, too. But I am not sure it is intentional. Might just be that the last new army got better and you want to be able to beat it. So you go up a bit in power.

Fobster
08-07-2009, 10:11
In regards to the OP:

My current gaming group has gone through similar things. The empire, goblin and beastman have disappeared replaced by DE, HE and Brets(still reasonably viable). Of our group im the only really experienced gamer and painter so ive been able to get by with my O&G. But the more we play the more i see the weaker stuff being cut out of my friends armies and the harder it is to have a fun game.

On another note I've never really believed that GW overpowered units to sell more of them, but the recent price haxes on their empire kits make me wonder. Without a wizz bang new list to shift the new models they have had to hike the price to spastic levels to make some money back. If they are prepared to upset so many of their player base with this sort of pricing policy then I dont think it's beyond the realm of possibility for a company director to ask for a new army to be released, that is ahead of the power curve.

Looking at the daemon release the models came out fairly quickly with little lead in that I heard of. I remember reading in the WD write up that the original company creator wanted daemons to be a stand alone army and have a greater focus in the IP. I thought the initial release stank and was a half finished miniature line with a bad army book, full of bad fluff, and mostly rubbish artwork. I liked to put the power level down to the lack of play testing.

Now I suspect the power level was where it was always intended to be. Daemons have been an awesome money spinner for GW. At one point on the aussie tourney circuit they made up a quarter of the field up from 0% of the field. Until they got soft scored into the ground they were near unbeatable in tourney play. Not bad, as almost no one had a unfinished daemon army from previous editions. Though the joke has ended as now its hard to get a competitive field up for fantasy anymore.

I could be getting a lot carried away. The players that play test this stuff and do battle reports in wd are mostly bad players. They might not be able to see the potential for abuse that some gamers can.

Also Matt Ward wrote the Daemons book. He also wrote Ork and Goblins before that. So he wasnt a 40k writer with no idea of fantasy. I called him the most useless man in gaming recently which was pretty harsh. Having read his work on war of the rings hes a good developer. I can't see how he missed the mark with daemons...

Mireadur
08-07-2009, 11:26
And the DoC are plain stupid. That was an 40k author. He had no real idea about how the mechanics works in fantasy.

Sadly he has no real idea even of how 40k should work :p

EDIT: i may read that LoTR stuff from him.. But considering i have no idea about the game it would be difficult to create an opinion wether the rules are good or not!

Milneh
08-07-2009, 11:45
I am a printer, and yes, army books can be edited all the way through until the plates are put on the press. Even then, an alert proofreader may stop the press if they catch an error.

Games Workshop uses printers in Poland, and it costs them a fortune to halt a printing last minute, to reset something (let alone redo an entire book) set up the print again and then ship it.

Sure "technically" its possible - but doing so cost efficiently is another matter. A close acquaintance of mine used to write for White Dwarf and when I mocked him over a spelling mistake in an article of his he informed me that unless it was a massive problem for context or a sales point of view the costs of changing the print on short notice outweighed the benefit of the correction/change.

Though from what I've heard GW are looking to change all their supplies (all the way from raw metals/plastics up to bringing printing in-house) to reduce costs so perhaps in the future we'll see publications from GW with more accuracy/proof-reading.

AlmightyNocturnus
09-07-2009, 01:10
Fobster, Yes, I originally wrote this thread just to see if other gaming groups are experiencing an escalation of cheese like my local group is. However, I briefly mentioned the a profit-seeking conspiracy theory of GW recently releasing over-powered Armies books to coerce even vet player into buying whole new armies. I think people can have very strong feelings abvout this subject. Let`s just say, if is true, it would be an "awful truth" - a truth so terrible that nobody would want to admit it.

Almighty Nocturnus

Shamfrit
09-07-2009, 01:18
I remember a very very fond conversation (see: heated argument) during a game in 1999 using High Elves against my mate's Wood Elves...oh the anger that raged at the Bodyguard rule, and how he couldn't do anything against my Chrace Prince in White Lions...

I've had the same repetative bullcrap for ten years, and 6 years I wasn't playing! It's part of the game, even if it's not 'cheese,' it'll still annoy you, still be hard to beat, and still blindside you...the fact that Necrons are underpar all being considered, doesn't stop me ranting and raving when the Flux Arc decides to wump my unit of Nob Bikers (my face was longer than a horse the first time it happened!)

From Shamfrit's Bucket of Cheese Thread Responses:

Deal with it.

theunwantedbeing
09-07-2009, 01:36
It's all about restraint.

Just because you can take a rediculously cheesy list, it doesnt mean you have to.

Similarly, just because your list could flatten the other guy in a couple of turns, it doesnt mean you have to.

You make the game fun for your opponent before you make it fun for you.
Of course this doesnt prevent you from winning the game when victory points are totalled up at the end of it all :P

My Dark elf list could take the ring of hotek, I dont bother as I dont find my opponents enjoy facing it all that much.
I could take the banner of hag graef all the time, but it annoys my opponnents a lot.
I could go really magic heavy with 4 mages, but my opponents dont like being blown to bits by magic, and then struggling to bypass the ensuing magical defence the additional offence grants me.
etc etc.
Then again I could land my general on her pegasus infront of the enemy army and have her get shot to bits, I never do (unless she's on 6 wounds) as thats just silly and I'm going to make my opponent at least earn his victory.

Condottiere
09-07-2009, 06:46
I read somewhere that in a downturn, entertainment that needs little outlay tends to do well. Just like food, we need entertainment, it just becomes a matter of how much we want to spend for it. However, raising prices for it tends to discourage sales for that particular product far greater, than during a boom.

Tarax
09-07-2009, 07:08
It's all about restraint.

Just because you can take a rediculously cheesy list, it doesnt mean you have to.

Similarly, just because your list could flatten the other guy in a couple of turns, it doesnt mean you have to.

You make the game fun for your opponent before you make it fun for you.
Of course this doesnt prevent you from winning the game when victory points are totalled up at the end of it all :P

My Dark elf list could take the ring of hotek, I dont bother as I dont find my opponents enjoy facing it all that much.
I could take the banner of hag graef all the time, but it annoys my opponnents a lot.
I could go really magic heavy with 4 mages, but my opponents dont like being blown to bits by magic, and then struggling to bypass the ensuing magical defence the additional offence grants me.
etc etc.


If only everyone would play like that, there would be no problem.

Alas, not everyone plays that way and others have to suffer.

AlmightyNocturnus
09-07-2009, 09:40
Indeed Tarax. I understand the intent of Shamfrit and The UnwantedBeing, but it`s like saying, "You should just keep trying to beat that Teclis+Star Dragon army with your Ogres." Maybe I`m the only one who feels this way, but in this instance it`s easier for me to say to my buddies, "I made a new army, let`s try it out...by the way my new army is Daemons! than it is to say, "I don`t want to play your Teclis+Star Dragon army. It`s too chessy for my Ogres. I know you spent a lot of time painting those models, but could you leave them out?"

Almighty Nocturnus

Shamfrit
09-07-2009, 10:20
How is he getting Teclis AND a Star Dragon? Or do you mean separate army lists?

Tarax
09-07-2009, 10:40
Or higher points. Not everyone plays 2000-2999 points.

kramplarv
09-07-2009, 10:52
or... both could agree on a lowest composition score, from the WPS-system ;);)

Fredmans
09-07-2009, 11:05
My gaming group has had similar experiences, but not as extreme as yours. I think that one of the problems with recent army books is that certain units/characters are intended to have certain standards/items, making other items seem far less worthwile. For instance, if I would want to field a Daemon prince, give me one reason why I should not take a Tzeentch Daemon Prince in the Warriors of Chaos army book. How do you protect fragile expensive Black Guards, let them strike first. In previous editions, item combos were less tailored. The army lists and items promote the so called "escalation of cheese". The same can be said about special characters in certain units. The army list clearly intends you to use them in certain ways. This is one reason as to why I feel that the latest army books are exceedingly one-dimensional despite the GW intention to promote versatility by removing restrictions.

/Fredmans

Huey Lewis
09-07-2009, 18:22
My gaming group has had similar experiences, but not as extreme as yours. I think that one of the problems with recent army books is that certain units/characters are intended to have certain standards/items, making other items seem far less worthwile. For instance, if I would want to field a Daemon prince, give me one reason why I should not take a Tzeentch Daemon Prince in the Warriors of Chaos army book. How do you protect fragile expensive Black Guards, let them strike first. In previous editions, item combos were less tailored. The army lists and items promote the so called "escalation of cheese". The same can be said about special characters in certain units. The army list clearly intends you to use them in certain ways. This is one reason as to why I feel that the latest army books are exceedingly one-dimensional despite the GW intention to promote versatility by removing restrictions.

/Fredmans

+1


10char

Shamfrit
09-07-2009, 18:29
At 3k, he's spent over 1k points on 2 models.

At 3k, I'd spend less than a thousand on ALL my character slots.

At 3k, you can have just as big and just as bad units as he can.

AlmightyNocturnus
09-07-2009, 23:04
In regards to some posts above, yes, we often play 3K battles in my gaming gorup.

Shamfrit, maybe you are not familiar with the OK Armies Book (or the HE book). At NO POINTS level can I have characters as big and bad as Teclis and a Star Dragon because there is NOTHING in my Army book that big and bad! THAT is the entire point of the post!

AlmightyNocturnus

Fobster
13-07-2009, 22:22
It's all about restraint.

Just because you can take a rediculously cheesy list, it doesnt mean you have to.

Similarly, just because your list could flatten the other guy in a couple of turns, it doesnt mean you have to.

You make the game fun for your opponent before you make it fun for you.
Of course this doesnt prevent you from winning the game when victory points are totalled up at the end of it all :P

My Dark elf list could take the ring of hotek, I dont bother as I dont find my opponents enjoy facing it all that much.
I could take the banner of hag graef all the time, but it annoys my opponnents a lot.
I could go really magic heavy with 4 mages, but my opponents dont like being blown to bits by magic, and then struggling to bypass the ensuing magical defence the additional offence grants me.
etc etc.
Then again I could land my general on her pegasus infront of the enemy army and have her get shot to bits, I never do (unless she's on 6 wounds) as thats just silly and I'm going to make my opponent at least earn his victory.

When I played my younger brothers at sport I took the same approach. But it's nothing like playing a proper game on the weekend. WFB is a little like that at the moment. If you play the top armies your like the Harlem Globe Trotters while the rest of us are the Washington Generals. Either way it's not a lot of fun for one side.

AlmightyNocturnus
13-07-2009, 23:08
Nice analogy, Fobster. My Ogres certainly feel like the Washington Generals at the moment...watching Vampires and Horrors of Tzeentch behind-the-back pass alley-oop dunk all over my Bulls.


Almighty Nocturnus

Marshal Torrick
14-07-2009, 04:09
My gaming group noticed the power level had risen pretty far, so we decided to play with no magic items whatsoever(with some additional restrictions on things like Bloodline powers, etc.). This, in addition to a previous prohibition on special charectars has made things a little more interesting.

Lord Anathir
14-07-2009, 10:20
lol at the people who think HE are any better then empire, bretts, woodies or tk.